001 - Beloved Books We Hate

The transcript is a conversation between two individuals discussing books they are currently reading. One person is reading "We Were Once a Family" by Roxana Esfarian, which explores the tragic story of the Hart family and the struggles of children being taken away in today's society. The other person is reading "The Collective Regrets of Clover," a story about a death doula named Clover and her isolated life. They discuss the contrasting nature of Clover's character and the beautiful insights on death and dying in the book. They then transition into talking about roasting books that they personally hated, with one person acknowledging the importance of not yucking someone else's yum. They assure that their opinions are not meant to make anyone feel bad and that they respect different tastes in books. Okay, I think we're going. We're going. I don't actually know how this works, but I think we're going. Okay. Cool. Do you want to introduce? Should I introduce? You can introduce the first one. Okay. All right. Okay, here we go. I don't know why I'm suddenly nervous. Let me get comfy. Okay. Hello. Here we are. Third time's the charm for this week's test. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Third time's the charm. I'm Abby. Hello. And I'm here with Sneak. Hey. And this is about the good one. This is our podcast. So, hello. Today, we kind of thought maybe we would start off round three, our attempt three at this podcast with doing something a little spicy. And by spicy, I mean we are roasting some books that other people enjoy. So, we are going in and talking about books that we personally hated. I think we're both going to focus on one in particular, but we'll probably talk about a couple others that we know in general, the reception for these books, definitely in our world, but I think, like, culturally, like, are pretty popular books. So, not just people that we know that like these, but just in general. They're beloved. Well-received books. Yeah. And we can't stand them. So, yeah, I think we can just get into it. So, actually, before we get into it, a good way to start this off is just by chatting about some things that Sydney and I, we're always consuming different types of content, for lack of a better word, and something we're always reading, listening to, watching, something that's kind of like priority for us in our current lives. So, with that being said, Sydney, is there something that you are currently reading, listening, or watching that you love to tell me about? Yeah. Tell us. So, I'm reading, like, seven books right now. What happens when you're in four book clubs? Yeah. And read for enjoyment. But one book I'm reading that is not a book club book, and I heard about it on a podcast a few weeks ago, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to buy that immediately. And then I forgot to buy it immediately, and then it popped up on my Libby app. So, and it is called We Were Once a Family, A Story of Love, Death, and Child Removal in America by Roxana Esfarian. So, this is a story about the Hart family, which you may or may not know who the Hart family is, but they were two. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they have a book about this. Right. Well, and so, I'll caveat. Well, first, let me finish telling everyone what it is. Yeah. Keep going. Keep going. You please keep going. Keep it up. So, the Hart family was two women, two wives who adopted two pairs, well, a couple pairs of siblings, and they were two white women. They adopted all black children, and they were very neglectful and abusive. And one day, they drove their suburban off cliffs and killed themselves and the entire family. So, obviously, incredibly tragic story. What this book is actually more, excuse me, more looking at is how they got to be with these two women and why and how they were removed from their families and how much their families loved them and the trouble that, or the struggles that their families went through. And, you know, they actually, the family I'm reading about right now, they, like, actually tried very hard to keep these three children. And if they would have, the three children would still be alive today. And it goes into, like, the judge who made the decision to, like, I mean, it's just so, it's a really, like, explorative narrative about children being taken away in today's society. So, anyway, it is fascinating. It is a very good book, so I highly recommend it. But this was also, this was also the family who was, like, because there's an element of this, I mean, maybe not in the story that you're reading, about their story, where they were posting their life. Weren't they, like, kind of like a YouTube family? Yeah, I mean, just always on Facebook. Right, but they were these people that were, like, glorifying, like, oh, we've taken in. We've built this family. Right, and they just put them all over the internet and then this tragic thing happened. A story is, like, you don't know what's happening behind the scenes. It's very much like a white savior story. And one of the little boys, he's famous because of a photograph of him hugging a police officer at a rally in support of Black Lives Matter. So, it's, yeah, it's very, yeah, but really good book, highly recommend. I, those types of stories are always really hard for me. Yeah. Oh, hey, good. That's a, that's a heavy one. You always read, like, really good memoirs and stuff. That's always, I feel like you're a good memoir reader. Yeah, I love memoirs. I guess this is not necessarily a memoir, this is a memoir, but, yeah, more true, more nonfiction, I guess, is what I mean. I'm not very good at reading nonfiction. All right, well, what I am currently reading, well, I also am reading too many books right now. I am reading, which one I want to talk about right now? I'm reading one for a book club, and then I have two other book club books, like, on my Up Next list. The one that I am reading for a club, I'll talk about this one, I'm reading The Collective Regrets of Clover, which Heather and you really liked, and my book club actually picked because it was a highly recommended book by you. So, not to say Sydney and I are in multiple book clubs. We're only one of our book clubs is actually together, so this is not that book. This is a different book club that just makes recommendations on books because she always has good ones. So, this book is, it's really good so far. I'm, like, exactly halfway through. I'm very curious to see where it's going. We'll say, like, halfway through. So, the book is about this girl named Clover. She's in her early 30s. She might be exactly 30. I'm not, I can't remember, but in her early 30s, and her job is a death doula. So, basically, she helps people, like, move on from living into death, and is just kind of with them as they kind of end their life. Sometimes she's the only one there. Like, they have connections with their family. Sometimes she's there not only to, like, make it easier for the person that's dying, but also to make it easier for their family, and she kind of gets this comfort and everything. And then, of course, as you're going, you learn about her back story and how she kind of is a bit of a hermit, very isolated, and has, you know, her own sort of, like, family history drama. A lot of people close to her have died, and so it's kind of, you know, that connection there. I will say halfway through, she, her, Clover, her, like, outlook on life and, like, what she does for a job feels to me in contrast to kind of how she lives her life. Like, I'm struggling a little bit with who she is as a character because they write her as such a hermit, but she has this sort of, like, really beautiful outlook on life and, like, almost, like, a very, like, celebratory. Like I was saying, she's there for people who don't have a family sometimes if they are dying without family, but also, like, she talks about, like, she understands the importance of family and relationships, and she lives this life, like, completely in solitude. So I'm hoping that as we get a little bit, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But I guess I'm just feeling like the way that she talks doesn't sound like someone that's so, such a hermit. So I'm hoping, like, some of these things sort of, sort of come together because I am, I mean, it's impossible. I feel like it's impossible not to like this book. Like, this is already only halfway through. There's, like, some really beautiful statements about, you know, death and dying and a life well lived and, you know, what it means to have regrets at the end and advice for moving on and, you know, things like that. So I think it's going to be really good. And one of the reasons that you said that it would be a great book club book is because it kind of opens up a lot of conversations about this type of stuff. They're always best when they're ones that, like, open up a dialogue, you know. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I recommended this to one of our childhood friends, and she picked it for her book club, and they all loved it. It won their book club book of the year, and she said that it was, like, the best conversation they've had all year. So if you're out there looking for a book club book, highly recommend this one. I do think it is going to be, our book club is on Sunday, so, which is tomorrow. So I have to finish this book before tomorrow. It's pretty short. Yeah, it is pretty short. I'm not too worried about it. But, yeah, I like it so far. And I think I'm just in a weird mix right now of, like, fantasy and then also, like, really comfy, like, comforting, I guess. I was, like, in a T.J. Kuhn kind of kick there for a little bit. So this is more on the comfy side, I think. And it's nice. Like, it's a good comfy read. Yeah. It makes me feel good. Anyhow, that being said, I guess move on. Let's get into some roasting here. Let's piss some people off. I was thinking maybe you should go first. Yours, I feel like, is the hotter take of the two. Yeah. Cool. So I am going to start out by saying that I, as someone who reads a lot of books and recommends a lot of books, I'm very sensitive to not yucking someone else's yum. And, I mean, in certain situations, like with Abby, I will talk a lot of shit. You'll be honest with me. Yeah. And some other people in my life. But if I'm just talking to someone, an acquaintance or someone, and they are talking about a book that I absolutely despise, I'm not going to sit there and tell them why I despise it. So I just want to caveat and say that everything that I talk about in this episode is not to make anybody feel bad if they love this book, because it is a beloved book. And there's probably a lot of things that maybe people aren't reading this book. People are reading this book just to, like, escape, like, take a second to themselves. They want to do something enjoyable. Right. And this book sucks them in. And, you know, so I'm going, like, kind of deep into why I hate this book. But I just don't want to make anybody feel bad or not read this book if they think that it's, like, something that sounds really good to them. So, anyway. It's funny. Before you jump into that, it's funny that, like, that was your whole caveat on this whole thing, because we had done, like, a list of, like, what should be our first, like, topic. And you were like, oh, we've got to start off spicy. We've got to dive in. Well, I'm still going to be spicy. But you're just approaching it much softer. But I love that because it is, like, I feel like as a reader. So, Sydney is a massive reader. If you don't know her personally, now you do. She's a massive reader. And she's also a really good recommender because she spreads such a, like, large volume of books. I mean, she's absolutely correct that, like, recommending books is important to her. And, like, I feel like the way that she does it is really thoughtful. She's really good at, like, well, what type of books do you like to read? What are you in the mood for? What is the scenario that you'll be reading? You know, she, like, takes all that into consideration. So, I like that you kind of did that caveat. And I'll just add to the caveat. We'll say the book that we're going to be talking about. And if you want to read that book, then maybe just don't listen to us. Yeah, true, true. So, yeah, you know, I do, like, I do every month I wrap up my reads on Instagram and do, like, a quick little. And if I hated a book, like, if I rated it one or two stars, I typically don't review it. Because I'm, like, I don't want to tell people why I hated it. Because maybe they'll read the synopsis and be, like, this sounds fantastic, you know. But I do think if you have read this book and whether you loved it or hated it, I think this can just kind of give you a different perspective on it that maybe you didn't realize. And I also, with that, have a list of what you could read instead. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I didn't do that. That's okay. Okay, so let's get into it. So, it ends with us by Colleen Hoover. So, immediately when I, and I read this book, I should have looked it up when I read this book. But I read this book a long time ago. You read it when it came out, I think. Maybe, yeah. But shortly after it came out, right? Have you been reading Colleen Hoover for a long time? Yeah, yeah. Well, no, I've only read two of her books. I read Verity. No, well, because you recommended Verity to me and you gave me, like, a background from Colleen Hoover when you recommended the book to me. And I was like, okay. And I probably just knew it was ours. So, you probably just knew. Yeah. Okay, let me continue. No, I read Verity and I loved Verity. And then every, like, the next most popular book was It Ends With Us. So, I was like, okay, I'll pick that one up. And I read it and I absolutely hated it. So, I've never read another one of her books again. But, so, the very first thing when I read the book, the entire time, I was just like, this is glamorizing an abusive relationship. I just couldn't get over it. And then it came out that Colleen Hoover wrote this book for her mother who was abused by her father. So, this book was kind of a, like, not her mother's story, but just, like, I don't know. Anyway, but that I just, like, couldn't really wrap my head around because I was, like, because of these reasons. So, I just had to write everything down because I'd go on a very long tangent if I didn't. So, essentially, to me, this book glamorizes an abusive relationship. And his abuse, the character Ryle, his abuse is almost, like, excused in a way because he's a tortured soul. Like, that's kind of the narrative. Like, well, he is this way because he's a tortured soul and because this happened to him. And it's not having him, like, take responsibility for his actions. And there's, like... Can you give us a quick summary? Do you want to give us a quick summary of the book? Basically, it is a story about Lily and she falls in love with Ryle who is this, like, very successful, attractive doctor. And then she has this other guy, Atlas, who, like, actually really loves her and is kind of in the mix. And essentially, it's just their love story, her and Ryle's love story. And he ends up being physically, emotionally, verbally abusive. And so she ends up... Again, I guess spoilers if you want to read this book. She ends up getting pregnant, leaving him, and then going to Atlas. So then some other issues I have with this book was she just... The narrative of Lily, like, being a damsel in distress, essentially, and, like, not getting out of an abusive relationship until she was, like, able to leave for another man. Like, I just, like, I just found that incredibly problematic. Especially if her mother, if Colleen Hoover's mother was in an abusive relationship. It's like, wouldn't you want to write this, like, strong woman who, like, can just leave her husband, like, and not have to just go straight into the arms of another man? Anyway, so and then in the end, Ryle is kind of given the abusive one. He's kind of given a redemption arc because he's a good father. So, like, in the end, it's, like, everybody is happy and they, like, are going to, like, he's going to have, like, partial custody of their daughter because he's a really good father. It's like, okay, well, but, like, he still beat the shit out of her earlier. So I just, like... That raises a lot of questions about what it means to be a father. I just struggle with that. Yeah. So I struggle with that. So another thing in the book is, like, growing up, like, Lily had a difficult upbringing. And she would, like, her diary, she would, like, write her diary as, like, letters to Ellen DeGeneres. And, like, so, like, her diary was essentially, like, Ellen DeGeneres. So, like, instead of, like, writing, like, dear diary, she would write, like, dear Ellen DeGeneres. And, like, never, like, mail them to her or anything. But just, like, that was how she wrote. And it's so weird. I think it was a very, like, very incorrect choice. I don't know. A strange choice also. I don't know. Very... It feels, like, very obscure. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Next. I think, in general, Colleen Hoover writes with a lot of internal misogyny, which, you know, there's a lot of it in the world. I think a lot of us hold on to that kind of thing. But I think a lot of her, which, again, I've only read two of her books. But from what I have read and heard about her other books, I think it's kind of a familiar pattern. Like, one thing that really stood out in this book was, again, kind of going back to this redemption arc with Ryle, because he's a good father. She is trying to leave him and divorce him. And he, of course, is doing the whole thing. Like, I'm so sorry. It's because I love you. I love you so much. It's because I'm tortured, blah, blah, blah. And she's pregnant with their baby. Or maybe she has their baby. I can't 100% remember. But she goes, she basically tells him, well, what if it was your daughter? And she came home with bruises and whatever. And he said that he would be better and not do it again. Like, would you want her to go back to him? And I was like, okay. So, I just, like, I have such a problem with that, because I'm like, the only people who have, like, only men who have daughters or close to their mothers or close to their sisters can understand that they're not supposed to be a woman? I just, I, like, I, like, hate that that was what was used for him to understand that what he did was wrong. Like, he couldn't understand that what he did was wrong until she was like, well, would you want someone to do that to your daughter? So, it's like, you should just understand. Yeah. It is. It is. It's very common. And so, yeah. So, I just, like, I really, really didn't like that. I just think there was a lot of internal misogyny, like, in similar ways to that throughout the book. Yes, she doesn't end up with this guy, but I still just felt like it really glamorized abusive relationships, which just is so unfortunate, because I think so many young women are reading this book. And I just, you know, and hopefully, you know, people can just suspend reality and take it for what it is. And, you know, but I also, to end it, I don't think she's a very good writer. I will say I thought Verity was incredibly, like, smart and really entertaining, but I don't think she's necessarily a good writer in general. So, those are my thoughts. Overall, I don't like her. I don't like that book. She also has come out and, like, she doesn't, she thinks it's stupid to use content warnings, and I have a big issue with that, especially when her books are filled with traumatic things. And she, yeah, so I just, I have a problem with that. But moving on, so here is if you love It Ends With Us or love Colleen Hoover, I have some alternative authors and books that I think should be more popular or as popular as Colleen Hoover. But the first one is Kennedy Ryan, and she is a romance author, and she has a very big backlist. So, tons of books to read by her. She's fantastic. Tia Williams, also fantastic. Seven Days in June is one of hers that is incredibly popular, and she has a new one coming out, I think, in February or March. She is also fantastic. I would also recommend Taylor Jenkins Reid early books, like, not Daisy Jones, not Evelyn Hugo, but her, like, first four books. I think those kind of give you the same just, like, can't put it down, want to know what happens kind of feeling. Because I will say, I understand why Colleen Hoover's books are popular. They're easy to read. They're not hard to read. So, if you're just trying to sit down and, like, get away for a couple of hours, they're very easy to read. You don't want to put them down. I get it. It sucks you in. But I just think there's other smarter, better, in my opinion, authors who can do that. Christina Lauren, they're a duo writing pair that write romances. Granted, they're not going to have the, like, kind of heavy traumatic themes. Kennedy Ryan and Tia Williams both have kind of more heavy themes in their books. But Christina Lauren doesn't. But you're going to get that, like, can't put it down, this is, like, I love this love story, like, the romances are fantastic. So, I'd recommend any of those. And then the last recommendation, which, if you don't listen to me and you just want to keep reading Colleen Hoover, which is totally fine, at least read this book. It's called The Idea of You by Robin Lee. And it is fucking fantastic. You love that book. She loves this book so much. It's true. It's good. Oh, no, did I lose you? Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, dear. Hold on.