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The podcast discusses the importance of authentic connections in networking for women in business. It highlights how traditional networking can be superficial and transactional, and how genuine connections are more valuable. The guest, Aarti Gura, shares her personal experience of using unconventional networking methods to find her first job. She emphasizes the importance of overcoming the fear of rejection and reaching out to seniors and managers for guidance. Aarti also talks about her journey in the tech industry, including joining companies like Megavision Technologies, Microsoft, and HP. She explains how she navigated hierarchical structures and rose to a senior software manager role by identifying her interests, participating in hackathons, and leveraging online communities. So I'll start here. Welcome to the 29 Pods, where we dive into unfiltered networking advice from inspiring women leaders and entrepreneurs. I'm Avni, your host. And today we're breaking down the barriers of traditional networking to uncover that what truly works for women in business and job. And today joining me is Aarti Gura, who's currently working in Adobe. Hi, Aarti. How are you doing? Hi, Avni. I'm doing good. Thank you. Yeah. So let's start. Let's start directly. And we'll discuss why authentic connections are crucial in networking. Many women find that traditional networking can be very superficial and transactional. As an entrepreneur put it, networking often evokes a superficial exchange of cards, but rarely leads to genuine new connections. What do you feel about that? And have you experienced that in your career? Absolutely. I think mine, Avni, just to start with, I have experienced and used the unconventional While I was working, you know, initially started my job as well, because, you know, if you, if you allow me to, you know, just go through my journey, how I started. So it all started in 2002, when I passed out from engineering in Karnataka. And during that year, almost, you know, there was no campus, recruitment happened, and we had to do all, you know, job search, all our own, etc. And only way we could think of that during that time was, you know, tapping on the network name, right? Like whether it is seniors, or maybe family, friends, and all those, and whatnot, right? And that's where I had to call like a lot of people, maybe it is within my friend circle, or within the family, or my senior group, right? And that's when I approached few of the senior group that we had, like who were already passed out and were working in established companies, you know, that could, so that we could get some of the help and advice on the, what next we need to do, because once you are graduated, you and, you know, if you're not in directly from the campus choice, and also you happen to, you know, you need to learn like how to, you know, give the interviews, or what is the skill in demand, what needs to be additional skills that you need to develop so that you can be, you know, better fit man for that requirement of the job. So yes, in a way, I, you know, in my initial journey, during searching for a job or seeking for a job, I did try the unconventional networking, and that really helped me to the point where I am right now today. So. Continuing with the topic, how did you overcome that fear of reaching out to other seniors and managers, maybe? Yes. Um, yeah, as anybody else, I initially resisted, right, like, I was thinking, okay, what if they wouldn't respond back, or what if they say, okay, no, these are, you know, hard. I mean, there is no better fit man for you right now and all. So I did have some of the rejections, as well, like that saying that, okay, you have to develop these particular skills, because in the technical industries, without these skills, you will not be able to, you know, get the required technical jobs and all. So I did get those advice as well. So I did not get discouraged by that. But I used, in fact, I used that as a feedback. I reflected on myself, okay, yeah, these are the some of the advices that are very important in order to work upon my, you know, skill development. And I did some of the online courses during that time, and I, you know, that's how I developed those skills as well. During that time, it was more of ASP.net, web pages, development, and all, which really helped me to push my boundaries and prepare for that next step in the job, right. So, I mean, to take up that job. So yeah, initially, it was a fear of that rejection, or unresponsiveness from, you know, seniors or people, but then I came out of that shell, I reached out, I proactively reached out, I followed up on, you know, the request that I had put. And only after I developed that particular skill, I went on saying that, okay, this is what I have learned. Now you guide me, whether I will, you know, get through it and all. And that really helped to show me the path towards, okay, I'm going in the right direction. And, you know, it opened up the opportunities as well, that's how, that's when I came to know, there are a few openings into the startups, like, you know, the really small companies wherein I started my journey initially. And that's when I got a break and the initial break, wherein I had to learn everything on that particular job. Because coming from the, after, you know, since after the graduation, doing some of the courses that really helped me to take up the job with the help of seniors who, you know, kind of already were working on that and, you know, went into the next job. But then, you know, they felt that, okay, I would be better fit into that to learn. And that is where I got maximum exposure, Avni, I would say. And, yeah, it was really helpful for me to, you know, take up the next step and grow as well. So basically, what we need to do when we reach out is get out that fear of rejection, if I'm not getting this. Yes, absolutely. You said, like you mentioned, that your college did not have any campus recruitment. How did you network your way through your first job? Yeah. So during that time, I mean, especially that year was a slowdown year. It was, I think, recession year, unfortunately. And we did not have many, you know, companies coming to the campus during that time. Many of us tried outside the campus job itself. Few of my seniors who, you know, I had really kind of, you know, known them for, you know, during my tenure or four years of engineering, I had built that, you know, network and the connection as well. And that's how we were still in touch, right? Like it was a group formed. We were, you know, folks of like five, ten members who are still in touch. By the way, we, you know, talk on, I think, on a regular basis. We meet as well. And that really helps, right, to cultivate that network, which we should not, I think, you know, should not allow to die down. We should keep that culture of, you know, nourishing that network as well, relationship, which, yeah, coming to the point where I started. So that's when, you know, a group of our folks, like whoever, like a member of 10 or 11 folks, we were in constant touch. Okay. Whoever got through, they would give us the advice. Okay. This is what have been, you know, discussed right now. So we used to discuss on the regular basis, though that time mobiles were not, you know, very frequent. I think it was just an introduced, you know, mobile concept. And we used to call on the STD, ISD calls where because of the long distance, you know, people would have already traveled to Bangalore and cities like that. And yeah, during that time, I happened to connect with one of my senior folks, whoever who was already working into this, you know, company. And I connected, I talked about, okay, this is the skill I'm developing ASP and technology. And then that's where, you know, he introduced me to this company called Megavision Technologies. And I happened to join. Yeah. Yeah. Continuing with that, you also joined Microsoft and HP, as you told me. So Microsoft has a very hierarchical structure in operations, if I'm getting it right. How did you cross that hierarchical structure to rise up to the top as a senior software manager, leader? Okay. Okay. Yeah. You know, after my first break where I learned a lot of technical, you know, technologies, I later on shifted to Bangalore post my marriage and happened to work based on my skill set and experience. By now I have already, you know, developed that. And there also I did good job because of, you know, my skill and experience that I had. I grew in that company as a senior developer engineer as well. And post that I was looking for, you know, good breakthrough. And Microsoft was always a dream company to join, being into a technical and using Microsoft product all this while, because if you see my journey as well, I was using VB, C Sharp, later point in time, and all Microsoft product as well. So I had that dream of, okay, joining the Microsoft company. During that, I think another instance I would like to share with you Avni. During the search of my Microsoft journey, I think that time some of the job portals were also available. But then where, you know, I used to apply, but then never I got any response or anything like that. I happened to, you know, use these communities, you know, wherein all the forums like stack or GitHub forums, etc. Wherein I got to know few folks, right, in some of the walk-ins, etc. I made that connection. And they once, you know, gave me, as in like shared me a link wherein I could apply for the Microsoft directly that time. And that's how I applied for Microsoft. I got into the Microsoft and, you know, I was working into the consulting technology, as in it is more of like delivering the technical projects. And inside the, you know, just to give you a little bit of like, as you mentioned, there is a hierarchy. In every big companies, there will be a hierarchy, like how to rise up, right? So that is again, how will you, what is your aspiration? Like what is your interest area? So the first one is like that identifying that interest area is the key thing, right? And once you identify that interest area, you can meet up or there will be a lot of opportunities within these big companies. There would be like hackathons or communities that you can join or, you know, meetups that you can, you know, sign up for and all. So one such opportunities I got was I participated in a hackathon. And via that hackathon, my ideas were, you know, kind of like in a hackathon, what happens is like you get to meet outside your team, right? So once you meet outside your team, so you will get a diverse perspective. You will also, you know, meet people with the like-minded folks. And that's when, again, the connection becomes and, you know, and one of the connections like that was made on one of the collaborative platform that I was working. And I was really interested on working on the product management side of that particular product, right? And that's where I made a connection and I moved that, I made that switch post that connection. So your network helps you change your field of work when you want to? Exactly. Yes. Yeah. You know, initially I, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. No, no, no. Please do continue. Yeah. So what I would try to, what I was trying to say to you is that, like, when I was, you know, in working in the, delivering the technical projects, I was working on this platform. And I, what I did is like outside my team, right? So I participated into hackathon and that's where the other team who recognized my work in, or had the similar ideas got connected. And that's how I got completely, otherwise it would have been very difficult to take that leap, right? Because it's a complete, like 360 shift of what I would say, right? Otherwise, conventionally, if I had to go, it would be like, you know, up the ladder. That wouldn't be possible. And this, you know, a jump that I got was like as a senior product manager is completely out of that hackathon and, you know, communities that we had. And, and that was the evolving product and, you know, by a little bit of exposure on that product really helped me and build that connection. And I would feel that that's, that's the, you know, a stepping stone for me to, you know, go and try out the product management. Yeah. Yeah. So for a person who's just getting into networking, having a first job, maybe, do you think these meetups and hackathons are good for them for networking? Or should they try something else first? Yeah. So definitely these meetups, these communities are, you know, very helpful. One reason, one for that is they, they would have the similar, you know, interest. We could meet people with similar interest. For example, if you are interested in building something in AI, right? Now, if you join these meetups, which are related to the data science AI, then you will focus on meeting on those, you know, meeting with those people. Then you will discuss about, okay, what is next in this area? Which model is coming up newly? What do you need to be prepared for that? And it may not be very intentional, I would say Avni, because see, sometimes when you have interest into that subject and you meet right folks, I think right opportunities will come to you. And that's what has really, I have experienced in my career. And I would say, yes, meetups and communities are important. And also some of the, you know, the conferences, one another, you know, I would like to call up about these conferences, right? Unconventional conferences, you can call it as. I was lucky to join, you know, and this happened in Microsoft itself, a Grace Hopper conference. This is like women's conference that happens. I don't remember exactly, but I think every year or something like that. And I was fortunate to attend one of them. And I felt that women across industries, they come there, right? Like, and I happened to meet few of the folks, you know, from ISRO as well, I think, you know, which is like my, you know, kind of fascinating subject. Though it was like outside my, you know, technical subject, but I felt interesting as well. And, you know, you, I mean, I just connected during the break and all I was like talking to her. So you never know what kind of opportunities unexpectedly can open up for you. And, you know, you never know when you can get to work on the interesting areas that you are, you know, very much interested or keen on working on. So, yeah, I, all in all, these meetups, communities, attending some of these technical conferences, all the unconventional conferences are very, you know, important. One more thing, which really I would like to add upon was, you know, young job seekers can also help, you know, try to see is the mentorships, right? Mentorship programs. I think there are communities or mentorship, you know, mentors who can guide you. Right now also, you know, you can follow those folks, right? I mean, you have LinkedIn and all of the forums, you can follow them, you can take a guidance. I think it may be offline or online. You can connect with them and take a guidance and on the career as well, because that is the point you will be like a little bit in dilemma, like what to do next? What is the current area? And, you know, because they are into that industry, they know the thing so they can better guide you. So, yeah, I would recommend. Yeah, like, how do you approach these mentors? How do you do it? In the first time you tell them, would you like to be a mentor or use some other technique to approach them? Yeah, so there are two ways. So one mentorship program, I think, you know, you have within the companies, like most of the MNCs, they have, you know, like fast forward jobs, you know, within the company itself, if you want to switch a role and also they have a separate programs for you that is within the companies that you get. Outside the companies, mostly, you know, you can reach out to, you know, these folks, you can talk to them, like, informally, you can talk to them, you can show your interest. Okay, this is what my strength is all about. And this is, you know, the product management area interests me or technical area interests me. So they can guide you based on your strength, your, you know, past experience or what you have, you know, studied or what courses you have done. So they can guide you. So initially to tap on, you may get, okay, some, you know, some respond well, some, you know, wouldn't respond or you might have to follow up. You shouldn't bog down by, okay, so you shouldn't think that it is, you know, kind of a task, you should think it as, okay, it is the ongoing activity kind of, if I want some kind of, you know, help, I would go reach out to my person or if she or he are interested, they will, you know, definitely guide you. So like that, you can try to reach out and see how that, you know, works. I mean, just to give you an example, I don't know, somehow, when I shifted from, you know, technical delivery to product management, somehow one of my colleagues, he, for brief period of time, he would have, we would have worked or somehow he knew my profile that I recently made this jump. And his wife was looking for, you know, changing her career into product management. I think she was doing some kind of courses into that and he reached out to me. So that is like how the circle, you know, got connected, right? He reached out to me saying that, okay, could you please, you know, help my wife? Could you please talk to her for five minutes and she would be interested. So that's how you can also make that connection, right? That's what I'm saying. It may not be like formally, formally you have to go, you know, set up a meeting or something like that. Like casually, if you're speaking and if you connect well, if your interest areas are same, I think, you know, you can connect and nourish that relationship as well, I think. I think the way that we can get unexpected opportunities pop up from nowhere is just amazing. If you network well, I guess. And I'm learning new things. I think I'll be using this myself. I think she has, and one more thing to call out of me is that she did not give up on one thing, right? So she constantly reached out to me. Like I talked to her. I, you know, later on when she found that opportunity with my advice, like, of course, I provided some of the materials and all, which I hope, you know, it helped her. And when she, you know, really got that opportunity, she tried, she called me again saying that, you know, okay, so this is the opportunity I got, you know, and thanks and also, which is again, kind of encouraging as well. Okay, your help was, you know, kind of help somebody to get what they wanted, right? So that is also very important, that connection, you know, keeping that connection alive is also very important. Constantly checking in, right? Talking about their progress as well, because now I know, now I'm out of product management and into the engineering. Let's say tomorrow I have somebody approached me. Now I know, okay, there's, you know, one more person where I can reach out to. So it's like a circle, right? Or it's like a different dot that we can connect. Okay, here is a person who is right now into product management who can help this person who is seeking for product management. Like that, we can also, we can also become a kind of, you know, connecting person to different folks. So it can come from any direction, I would say. Oh, yeah, I do agree. I agree. I think I'll surely try this myself again. I'm also like, there's this very famous quote that women often hold themselves back because they don't see their value. Have you seen this when women are in companies when women are connecting with other seniors, that they hold themselves back? Absolutely. And one example is me. To tell you of me, I kind of underestimated whatever, you know, I worked, maybe I was very reluctant to openly talk about it, whether it is, you know, my accomplishment in hackathon presenting my ideas or anything like that. So, but I met this person, right? Like, and he once told me that, you know, if you have done, then if you have worked on it, or if you have explored that area, so talk about it, right? Articulate it. So we should know how to articulate whatever we have done, be it, you know, maybe some ideas that you have presented or you have implemented. In fact, I had implemented that idea, which I did not talk about. And how would other person know about, you know, what you have accomplished or what you have done without, you know, telling them. So it is really important not to downplay, but to, you know, showcase or articulate. I mean, I'm not telling about the exaggerating as such, but talk about your accomplishment. And women tend to, you know, kind of hide that. I think I would say we should talk about more often we, in a connect, in a closed network as well, you know, outside also. Oftentimes, we should, we should showcase it, we should talk about, you know, those areas. And then you never know, like, if there is any other opportunities or a similar. Let's say, you know, I was working on one of the apps, which is, again, you know, doing the generative AI. I was working like the, which will help you to rewrite or, you know, rewrite your message in different tone, whether it is a professional or whether it is some, you know, kind of different tones, casual, you know. Casual or in a poetic way or something like that, which again, as you know, that, that app was already one more, another, you know, colleague of mine, he told, yeah, so why don't you go ahead and, you know, develop it and deploy it so that any other people can take an advantage of it. So like that, you get a guidance saying that, you know, you should, you should often talk about your accomplishment is what I, you know, feel. Has there been any instance where you approached a person and, you know, got out of that bubble and you felt rejected, even though you were right? And how did you cope up with that? Okay. So, I mean, I personally did not, yeah, I did not, initially maybe. So, I mean, when I approached this person about, you know, the technique where I was looking for switching from the product management to, you know, back to my technical, you know, career, where, you know, where I wanted to be a leader in engineering, you know, space, that's when I started preparing for my next role. And I reached out to this person. So when I was talking to the, you know, the person, and now he's my mentor, you can say, he did, he was very straightforward. He would say that, you know, if, if you want to be in technical or technology space, you should articulate your thoughts clearly, so that other person understands that. And, and, you know, you can, you cannot say anything, you know, in plain English. You should always see with the data that you have worked on, you know, these, I mean, in, in our, I mean, if you know different, you know, solutions using different patterns, etc. So you should talk more often on that pattern, what approach, you know, you took to solve that problem, which pattern did you apply and all. So it initially, it was very, you know, kind of dejective for me to take it because it first couple of interaction did not go well. I always got the feedback, okay, you should be more vocal about your, you know, accomplishment, what did you use, you might have used it, but you're not articulating that. I did not take that as a rejection, I took that as an opportunity to learn. So I jot down those points that we discussed, okay, where I should improve on, I should use more of technical jargons, because that is what this role demands, because you will be helping the team to coach and model, right? That's where I used more often these technical words, technical, you know, I had used it, but I was not used, not using it to explain it, right? So, but then this feedback really helped me and that interview, believe me, went very well. And that's how I landed up on the, you know, the role that is, you know, delivery engineering manager role. And that's how I now tell my team members to, you know, now I know, okay, why he was telling me or why he was guiding me that, because now I can, you know, coach my team so that they also think of the big picture. Like how we can think from how, you know, any developing any product, how we can think from the scalability perspective, how we can think from the performance perspective. Now, now I know, and that really, you know, helped me and I did not take this as a rejection, but I took that as a lesson and, you know, learned over the period of time and went back. I revalidated my understanding and that's where I got, you know, okay, improvement feedback. And I keep getting, it's not a, feedback is not a wrong thing. It's always good to improve. And if you want to grow more on your path or a career, feedback is very, very essential for me. I mean, you know, I would say. Yeah. So I think you have to make some tough decisions to improve yourself if you want to get the job. Yeah. And had it been, I, I thought, okay, this was, you know, critical feedback for me and I did not try, then I wouldn't have been in this position. So, yeah. That's, I think that's great. I think everybody would benefit with improvement every now and then so that they can get into the dream job or the dream place that they want to be. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So as we wrap up with today's episode, remember to everybody that networking is not just about what you can gain, but also what you can give back to the community. Building a strong network of supportive women is the 29th major goal and the incredible opportunity that we can get with it. Now, ending with one last question, is that what networking advice would you like to give? What is that one networking advice that you would every time give it to one person? Yeah. Do not shy away. Try unconventional networking. You never know what kind of opportunities will open up for you and keep trying. I mean, you know, if it is, if it is not succeeded once, then keep trying. I think, yeah, it, if it is, it's like, it shouldn't be a task. It should be an ongoing, you know, kind of job. Like just more, you know, yeah. As a daily routine, it should be a daily routine. It should, we should not think it as a transactional kind of, rather it is just, you know, a meeting new person. Yeah. Right? And you never know, like, it's a, when you meet folks or when you meet new people, you learn some or the other thing. If it is good, take it. If it is bad, leave it. But try. Oh, my God. That's great advice. Thank you for joining us. I had a really great time. Thank you so much. Thank you, Ani. Thank you for having me. Yeah.