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Jo Hanley, guest on the Body Story podcast, discusses her earliest memories of her body. She recalls feeling self-conscious about her lack of breasts as a teenager. However, as she grew older, she developed a curvier figure. Jo also shares her love for bike riding and swimming, which made her feel free and independent. She grew up surrounded by generations of women, each with their own unique relationship with their bodies. Her Nana encouraged her to connect with nature, while her mother was a strong and active woman. Her mother even built billy carts for all the neighborhood kids. Jo's upbringing was filled with outdoor activities and a love for the beach. I'm Sarah Warwick and I welcome you to the Body Story podcast. We come to you today from the lands of the Whadjuk people on Noongar Boodja. I pay my respects to Elders past and present and I recognize First Nations peoples enduring connection to culture, land and water. My guest today is my friend Jo Hanley. Jo grew up on the northern beaches in Sydney and has approached her big, rich life with gusto but also a huge, warm, generous heart. Jo, let's get into your body story. Do you mind first telling us how old you are? I don't mind at all. I'm very proud of my age actually. I'm 62 years old and I'll be 63 in November. Amazing. So Jo, tell me about your earliest memory of your body. Well, I did think about this last night and I remember being on a school bus in my teens and I was a very long, tall, lanky girl, skinny, and I didn't realize at the time, flat chested. It wasn't until I started going to high school and I started getting the Mr Boo's Blue bus down from our place, down to Avalon, Barrenjoy High, and I started noticing girls, we had a uniform with no shape, but I started noticing girls with breasts. And that was my first thing. I looked down and I thought, I have no breasts. And that was my first thing going, oh, that's unusual. I don't have any shape. Funnily enough, as years have gone on, I've got one of the big busted girls you could ever meet. Except for what you wish for. I love it. What about even earlier than that? What about, do you remember, think about when you were a really small child, was there something that you loved doing with your body? Were you like, did you love dancing or swimming or riding your bike or? Like going back, back, back before that. I'll push bike riding. I had a drag star with little fringes on it and that would have been when I was around sort of like eight, nine, and ten. And I used to actually go and get my cousin, I've got photographs of her as a baby on the front of that drag star. Swimming was amazing for me. I did a lot of swimming. Can you think about how, when you were on that drag star, what was the, what did you, can you remember any feelings of how you felt when you were on that bike and you were riding that bike with your cousin? Yes, I felt free. I felt, I didn't, I felt grown up, but I wasn't. So because mum and dad gave me the responsibility to be able to leave their place and ride two blocks to my auntie and uncles. I love it. So, and I used to go down and then I felt like very maternal because I always had my little cousin and we still have a giggle, she's in her fifties now. We still have a giggle of her on my lap. So it was all very nurturing. I think it was me probably, you know, taking that thing from sort of being, you know, even seven, eight, nine, and ten and going to have that little bit of liberating freedom that I was allowed to get from my family. A bit of independence. Yeah. And also when I'm thinking about it now, just being able to, just being that long legged skinny girl for me, I think I'm visioning it now. I was, I was peddling away. You were, yeah. I had the wind in my hair and I was, I was, you know, going to an exciting place. And did your, cause I had a bike like that too when I lived in Port Hedland, did it have the really long back, the seat that went up really high at the back and the big chopper handlebar? It had the big chopper handlebar. Love it. And, but it had the, the seat didn't go up at the back, but it had the very long seat on it. Yeah. And then, and it went down at the front like that and then, yeah, big, and it had the streamers coming off. And I still would love one. I've looked for one. I have. I've looked for the drag star. So yeah, it was a Melbourne star drag star, but I mean, yeah, that's probably a great memory for me too. And so you grew up in Avalon, which is at a beach, so, and you were saying swimming. Do you remember, do you remember the sensations of swimming? Like, did you swim really young? I was, I was really good at sport. Right. So I was a champion swimmer. From what age? Like a young age? Probably from about, I would have started getting into swimming cause it was still in primary. Yes. So how old are you then? Like eight, nine? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we grew up on the beaches, so all of that, you know, it was always walking from cause I grew up with my mother, my father and my brother, even in one part of the house, my Nana and Pa in the front path and my great grandmother, Elizabeth. Amazing. There was a door that connected the kitchen into great grandmother Elizabeth's bedroom. And then there was my auntie and uncle in the front part of the house, which was in the garage. Wow. And that was until I was 10 years old. And yeah. Okay. Well, I would love to, that's really interesting. I would love to dig into that a little bit. So living with all these generations and relations, do you, do you remember those women talking about their bodies or your body at all as you were growing up? Your mum or your grandma or your great grandma? And were they, were they physical kind of women? Did they play sport and swim and enjoy the ocean or what do you remember about that? Yeah. They were all different, actually. They were all three different, very different women. So my Nana, I mean, coming from London, you know, and, and growing up over there and, and, and then coming as a, as a child, actually over there, over to Avalon, she wasn't a big beach goer. Right. But Nana for me was more, almost earthy. She sent me on earthy journeys with, we had a creek down the road and she used to send me, so that was probably part, a great thing for me to do as a child with walking. She'd send me with a jar down to the, to the creek to catch tadpoles. That was Nana's sort of thing, but Nana was very nurturing and very, very hair combing and like a Nana is and tickling of back and very soft and nurturing. And if I, being so close to mum and, sorry, Nana and our place, if I didn't get on with my mum, I would walk straight down the path and up the stairs to Nana. And say I was in trouble. So Nana took that very nurturing role. And are we talking with bodies and, and with, how are we talking mind or? No, more just body, like, you know, but I love that. And I think that, that image of your, your Nana encouraging you to go down to the creek and move and be in nature is very much, yeah, it's a nurturing thing, but it is also something physical. Yeah. Do you remember your mum ever talking about her body when you were growing up? Not at all. And so we're talking the seventies. If you're in primary school, it's the seventies, Jo, isn't it? I was 60, so primary seventies. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. 1970s. Yeah. So, but then, well, sort of early seventies with high school. Right. So I was really in primary school in the sixties. In the late sixties. Yeah. In the late sixties. Yeah. So mum, I just remember mum and even looking back on photographs of her now, my mother was, she was the long, lean girl as well. Yeah. Whereas, yeah. So she spent a lot of time in the surf club with my father. Yeah. So there was a lot of physical sort of activities that she had to do there. My mum was a big surfer. Right. Right. Okay. So now that's coming to me. So with mum, meeting dad on the beaches, my mother used to ride a surfboard and my mother used to be like a Gidget woman. So she would get on my father's shoulders and ride waves. Wow. So there's photographs of her up there. So, I mean, she had that sort of fitness and obviously my dad traveled quite a bit. So my mum had to be sort of like bodily fit and everything to raise, she raised two children with the help of Nana. But, you know, she's a very strong, independent woman. We didn't have really much transport then. So mum was always walking. Yeah. So she was really physical. Yeah. Do you remember her, like, was she the kind of, because of that, was she the kind of mum that was always encouraging you to be the swimmer and the fitness, to be physical, would you say? Or just... Yeah. I mean, yeah. Mum got us into sports like netball, because that's another thing I did, I played a lot of netball and I played a lot of softball. And thinking on it now, to tell you the truth, mum built billy carts. So mum used to get us all out there and all the kids in the neighborhood. So mum used to go up to the tip. Amazing. This is good stories. Yeah. And she'd go up to the tip and she'd get old prams. And then she'd go down to the local fruit shop and she'd get boxes. And she'd put, build, and then she'd get the easel from the pram. And she'd get the wheels from the pram and then she'd put them on the timber boxes, fruit used to come in timber boxes. And she made all the kids in the neighborhood billy carts. And I've been to Avalon. It's very hilly. Yeah. You could go screening down hills in there. Well, it's just all up and down. You could just, yeah. So we had a hill beside our, beside our house in Elane Avenue. And then, you know, progressing, even when we all went up to the plateau, mum was the one building all the kids' billy carts. And my mum used to ride them as well. Did she? Thanks for bringing all this up. Now this is all coming to me. So this is mum's sort of fun side. Yeah. Yeah. How old were you then when the billy carts were happening? Again, probably, well, Steve would have been about three. So six. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Prior to that, like, as I said, it was a very, we were always at the beach. Yeah. You know, we were walking to the beach, swimming at the beach, dad was in the surf club. Yeah. You know, we'd be as kids running up and down the beach. We had a very earthy upbringing. Outdoorsy beach kind of life. Yeah. And, and lots of, you know, parks and, and cricket. We played cricket in the, we played cricket in our front yard. So the environment very much encouraged it, didn't it? You had the incredible coastline there. You had parents who were very active. And then if we, if I go back now to that time when you said you were doing a lot of swimming at school, can you remember that feeling of being a good swimmer, Jo? And what did it feel like? It was amazing. Like, I just, I absolutely love swimming, still do. And but just the excitement of, because I would get into all the finals and the excitement, I swam breaststroke, freestyle, and butterfly, but breaststroke was my thing. Just that excitement of just all everyone cheering and cheering on and. And what about actually the physical feeling of it? Can you remember like how you felt in your body? Any words to describe that? Let me just think, I'm, I'm, I just, I know, I felt fresh and alive. And now I was also a really good runner. And I broke the school record when I first arrived in high school. I broke the school record for cross country, running across sand dunes. Can you believe that? Amazing. So I became a really good, as so. So you were, you were a natural sports person. I was a natural, I did hurdles, I was in, yeah, so I wouldn't. So tell me, going back to you said, so were you pretty tall then? Always tall. Always tall. Okay. So let's tell me about that. Tell me about being a tall girl in the 70s, the late 60s and the 70s. I loved being tall, Sarah. Like I really enjoyed it. I still do. I loved being a tall person. Not all my girlfriends were tall, but I have another girlfriend that was pretty much equally as tall. We always found the boys were so much smaller than us. Yeah. But no, I liked being tall. I just, it felt, it just felt right. I was always, I was always very confident with who I was and in, I was always very confident in my body. Yeah. And I, as I said, I was aware, I was very aware that I was a lot slimmer than anyone else. I used to find myself a little bit too skinny. Okay. I used to think about that. Yeah. Did you? What would you think? I just think, oh gosh, I'm a lot skinny. I don't have any shape. Okay. Like I don't have any shape like the other girls. What age do you think you were thinking this? I really started thinking, I think I became more body aware probably when I was getting up to that nine, 10 bracket. Yeah. Prior to that, I was just being a kid, you know, but I wasn't body aware where I was, I think back in those days, you didn't have, nobody really talked too much about body or anything. Do you know what I mean? Like we didn't. And that's a great lead in. So let's say you're heading towards those adolescent years and did mum or anyone around you, Nana or anyone talk to you about periods or anything? Yes. Did they? Yes. Who are you? My mum. What did she say? Do you remember? She just, well she, I got really sick with my period. Okay. Really, really sick. Do you mean every time you got your period? Yes. What do you mean by sick? Fainting, cramps, crying, vomiting. It was horrible. And I, mum put me on the pill, which I, which the doctors recommended when I was only 13. Wow, Jo. Yeah, because it was the only thing that would stop me. Did it help? Yeah, it did. Well, I didn't know any different, Sarah, so when I was on the pill. For how long? For, I was on the pill till I was probably about 30 something. Wow. Yeah. As I got older, that's what you did back then, the pill. There was no HIV, not, I mean there was sexually transmitted diseases, but you didn't really, it was the only, the reason why I used condoms back there was not to get pregnant, where we use it for so many reasons now. That's true. Yeah, exactly. So there's another thing back in those days, there was, condoms was, it was like, you were having a condom because we're not, we can't have you pregnant, or otherwise you're going on the pill. Yeah. Okay, so mum did tell you about your period, before you got your period, and what age were you then? Yeah, I got my period when I was about, I think 11? Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember being in the bath once and getting really embarrassed, because, and I think, and it was the first time I remember thinking, realising, well, knowing that I was changing, but not really worrying about it, but having an embarrassing moment with my mum. What was it? Well, I know that at that point, my boobs had just started, as I said, I was really flat chested, but I noticed little, the glands, you know, you get... Yeah, those little buds, those little buds you get in the beginning. Yeah, the little buds, and a bit of hair down there, and I've got a couple of hairs, and I was thinking, I remember thinking, oh, okay, I'm changing. But mum, as I said, I was educated by my mum and my, well, not my dad, but by my mum, with books and talking. So mum was pretty, so mum was pretty good, was she, about talking openly about stuff, Jo? Yeah. But she embarrassed me once, and I was in the bathroom, and she came in, she was like, oh, look at you in there, and you're getting these things, and look at you down there, and I lost it. I'll never forget. So how did you feel in that moment? Really embarrassed, because I didn't, mum was sort of, I was just, I mean, it was like somebody was looking at my body, and no one had really ever looked at my body. Yeah. Although I grew up in a house, Sarah, where we were a naked house. Were you? Yeah. No, no, I don't mean to say, but do you know, no, well, no, I saw my nana naked, and nana saw me naked. Yeah, but nana wasn't walking around naked. No, but she'd walk around, and she, when I say we're walking around naked, we, but we were not a naked house, I'll be honest, it's kind of like, so none of us, so yeah, so when I say naked house, nobody worried until we probably got to our, we started going through puberty. Right. I can't speak for anyone else in my family, but I was the first one to come through it. Until it got to that age, it was nothing for my mum to leave the shower and walk past me into a bedroom, or for me to go into my bedroom after my bath, and for anyone to see, or even dad. Yeah, dad, yeah. Yeah, nice. Yeah, there was nothing, I mean, and it shouldn't be, you know, it should be okay, it is okay. Absolutely. And so that's why I grew up in a naked house, well, it was a house where nobody thought about anyone's bodies, or we were a family, and we were all in a safe space, and I think that that was a great thing as somebody coming up as well, and knowing my body, and feeling comfortable in my body, and not being, I look at you, or go and put clothes on, or anything like that. Totally. Yeah. So that could have, you're saying, potentially helped with seeing and accepting yourself a little bit more. Yeah. So let's go to that age, you've got your period, your period's troublesome, and your mum puts you on the pill, and you are getting to that age, a girlfriend's starting to talk about sex, does mum give you the sex talk, where are you getting your information, and is it entering your brain? Yeah, it's entering my brain, yep, so there was a couple of things there, there was obviously the girls at school, and like all girls at school, we all got a little bit experimental with one another at times, you know, like we did, and I don't think we ever told our parents that, they probably thought, I mean, it was so experimental, I remember going to friends' places, and another girlfriend, and she had the older sister, and this girl used to say to me, oh, and Debbie, her name was the oldest, oh, and you know, I heard her talking about this, and we'd all gather round, and we'd listen to each other, but we weren't very inquisitive, so it was nothing that we, in those days, you'd go to someone's house, you might have a bath with your girlfriend, or a shower, it just was like everybody popped in the bath, because that's what mums did, everyone in the bath, you know, and in and out, and so, and this was even in our early teens, when we started to get puberty, so we were, I remember being with some of my girlfriends, and we would all be like looking, and we'd be going, oh, look what I've got, and I've had a feeling down there, and someone's like, oh, really? Did you talk about that? Yeah. That's great. Yeah. You were talking about sexual feelings. Yeah. Yeah. Back in those, yeah, I remember the, yeah, with my girlfriends. And so, was, and were any of the girls saying to be sexually active or anything at that age? We were all just a bit more inquisitive about us. Yeah. We, I remember going home, Sarah, sometimes, after our golf, we'd all go, oh, have you touched that spot? And we'd be talking, and then we'd go home, and then we'd go, oh, have you touched that spot? Which was the clitoris. Yeah. And probably around that, maybe there, would it have been? Probably, yeah, 13, 14, 14, maybe. Pre-discovering masturbating, basically. Yeah, well, if that's what it was then, I don't know. It was just, we all went, well, that feels good. I love it. It wasn't something that mum was going, this is true, yeah, it wasn't something that mum was going, you know, you've got a spot there that's clitoris. I found out more through my girlfriends about that. Yeah. You know, so, but I, I think I was, I've always been quite sexual. Yeah. My, but my mum, my mum in particular, she always had this thing that I was being really promiscuous, because I had a lot of male friends. Right. And I always have had. Yeah. And, but I wasn't. Yeah. So mum was always, I think, was just so serious as I started getting, oh, you know, you know, have you been doing things? I'm like, no, I haven't. Yeah. And I wasn't. Right. So that was really unusual. And so do you, that sounds to me like it's a bit of an era thing then, is it? Is it a bit worrying about what other people think, do you think? I think it was back then, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it definitely was. And I was a bit of a, I was a little bit, I was not wild. Mum would have said I was quite wild back then, but, you know, I'd go off trail back riding with the boys and, I mean, I was. So you were still into your later teens in high school, you're still very much loving the physicality of life, you know, you're this. And do you remember, so tell me now about when your body did start changing a lot. So I guess the middle, like. Developing? Yeah, really developing. And were you excited about it, Jo? Were you? Yeah, I, look, I, yeah. How old were you, do you think? I think I was probably more in my late 20s, really. Really? Did you? I mean, I've developed here and here, but I didn't have kids even, really. They didn't start popping up until the middle to late 20s. Really? Yeah. Wow. If I look at photographs and everything of myself then, which I have done, still got them in party outfits and things, and bras, no, I was quite flat, not flat chested, but I had a boob, but it was probably a tiny little 10, where now I'm a 14D. Yeah, right. So I found as I've got older, my body is just constantly changing. It does. So let's talk about those years then. In your, in your, you know, in your, let's say, in those 20s and 30s, Jo's out in the world, living in Sydney, I think, are you at this point? Living in Sydney and one, how are you feeling about your body then? And two, what are you doing with your body that's making Jo feel alive and having fun and yeah. Right. I felt really good in my body then. I felt alive. What I was doing was dancing every weekend. I had a partner who was DJing and I've always had such a massive zest for life. So even going, like I said, from the later teenage years with the trail bike riding and climbing trees into sort of going down the path and then being in all these massive dance parties where every single weekend I was out dancing. Yep. And I remember people used to come up to me and say, well, where do you work out? And I was like, oh, just probably on a dance floor. Because I didn't go to the gym or anything. You didn't? No. So you just went out dancing every weekend and do you remember, okay, so and you're feeling great. You're feeling pretty confident in your body. Yeah. And you're there on the dance floors every weekend in Sydney. And what are you, do you remember the feeling when you were dancing like in your body? Like Jo in her 20s and 30s? I felt, yeah, I just felt, I felt completely different to what I did in my teens. I felt, I went from this sort of earthy, long haired, surfy, sort of, you know, beachy girl to going to a salon one day with a couple of friends of mine, quite out there, sort of punky friends to having my hair completely chopped short back and sides and bleached white. Wow. And that was, and then I met my then partner on the dance floor in a club called the Berlin Club and then everything just changed. I went through a rockabilly stage as well. Yeah. But I think, I don't know, I just remember being out there and just feeling free and just, I felt, it's a very big, it's a feeling of just being alive. Yeah, being alive. Just being alive and, you know, I felt always fit when I was out there. I felt good, I felt strong and I still felt really young and youthful and excited and, you know, I've always been one to take myself to the next level and throw myself into something, something else. If something new comes, then that's what I do. So then you're a woman in your 20s and you're having a relationship and you talked before about being a sexual person. Did you, were you just, would you say, completely free in that space and you weren't inhibited and you felt great in your body so you could explore it really freely? Is that what you, would that be a good description or describe it to me? Yeah, that's a great description. I felt, yeah, I think I just, I did feel good in my body now when I'm reflecting on, I'm reflecting on times we've spent with people even after my relationship went by the by and then I had, you know, I was single. Yeah. And yeah, I did, because now when I think back to what my body was like then to now, I'm a lot bit more conscious about it now, whereas then I just knew, I knew I could, oh look, I could put some nice underwear on or a great skirt and top and there was, I was toned. Yeah. You know, toned. And were you enjoying it though? Yeah. Really, really enjoying it? Yeah, I was just enjoying it. Yeah, I never had really any sort of inhibitions or, well I have actually a bit later on down the track. I've started getting body conscious, but back then, no Sarah, I was just, I was just felt, as I said, I felt alive and I felt my body was fine. I was, it wasn't because I was tall, it wasn't because I was slim, it wasn't because of anything, I just felt comfortable in myself and I think a lot of it stems back to the way that I was brought up. Without any real sort of big things about how I should be with my body or, you know, and having this freedom of being able to walk around the house and no one sort of pinpointing, you've got a bit of this or you're too skinny or you haven't got a bit of this. Did your parents ever talk about, did your parents ever talk about their sex life, your mum and dad? They didn't, but we spotted it. They're like, my house, where'd be the old door shut? The door should be shut on a Saturday afternoon. Oh yeah, I mean I could tell you a story, I mean mum probably wouldn't, I won't go too far into it, but no, there was, yeah, no, I mean, there was times when, yeah, we kind of, you know, caught them out or we knew what was underneath the bed and in the cupboard because we, when they were out, we went, we were going, I wonder what's in mum and dad's room? Probably could be looking for jewellery. It was such a game, wasn't it? Having a hunt through your mum and dad's wardrobes and finding their bits and bobs. Yeah, so I think coming from that, you know, there was, we knew mum and dad had sex and so we knew what sex was from there and we were like, well, that's what you do. Yeah, and I just think, just tying it into the story of, you know, of this naturalness and acceptance and your Jo growing and being this woman in the world and, you know, perhaps compared to some other women where there's been, you know, especially back in the 70s and 80s and before, obviously, there's a lot of commentary on our bodies, you know what I mean? And if you've got too many pounds on or you're this or that or the other. And also, like you were saying before, a little bit about, but also commentary on how you should be sexually as well, either from a religious point of view or just from a parental opinion, you know? Tell me, did you think about having babies when you were, throughout your, like, teens or early 20s or? No. No, I didn't then. Yeah. No, I didn't. I didn't until I was in that same relationship when I hit 30. Yes. And that's when I said to my then partner, I wanted to have a baby. And that really became something very, very big for me. Right. And I really... Describe that to me. Oh, it was just big. It was just, I just felt it. It was my time. Yeah. I knew I was 30. I'd been in a relationship with someone for nearly 10 years. And I felt, and we were set where we could have a baby. And it was just, like, this really overwhelming emotional feeling where I wanted to have a child. And sadly, he didn't. Yeah. Yeah. And I was actually with Lisa Steven, down at Palm Beach, having a big bawling, like bawling. And just going, I've had this conversation, and he still doesn't have children. But no, just really, I just knew. And I was like this ache. And I described it to a friend of mine once. And she said, it's a wonderful thing, Jo. She said, you don't say to me, oh, Leah, I'm really missing, I'm having a child. I always used to say to Leah, I really want that feeling in here. Holding, and having a baby inside. Having a baby inside. Jo's holding her belly as she says this, by the way. Yeah, I'm holding my belly. And she said, isn't that beautiful? I said, I wanted to carry that child. And that's what I've missed. So tell me about that. So he says, I don't want to. What happens then? Is that the end of the relationship? I think. Or did you guys stay together? No, we didn't. But we did. But we stayed together for another few years. But I think that was like a big turning point in our relationship. And we didn't break up for those reasons. Yeah. But we did. We did. I felt that there was a shift in our relationship then because it became, well, we wanted two different things. Yeah. And I did want to have children. So was it ticking away in your brain, Jo? Like tell me about that. Or in your body, even more importantly. Did you find you were feeling, getting that yearning in your body more? Or do you think you were losing? I was. I was getting the yearning. But I'm very much a person, Sarah, that when something can't be, or something's going to happen at a particular point in time, and I've just got to work with what I've got at this point. I can't. It's not that I block things out. It's just I get on with life and I know what I've got to do next. And I just keep sort of moving. And I'm thinking just quickly, too, going back, when we've talked about it and you said, oh, you've got these different ways with your sexuality or this or that. And just one thing I'd like to say, which was I was with three different grown women until I was 11, which was my auntie, my mother, and my nana. And they all shaped me. Yeah, amazing. And they all gave me something. My auntie who was, I mean, she was fantastic. So she was the youthful one that was going, it's okay. And then my mother that was going, that's not okay. And then my nana that was going, oh, darling, come here and let me. So it was wonderful. Well, it is wonderful. I think that shows a lot of my strength. Yeah, and it is wonderful because, as a parent, you have your fault lines and you can be good at some stuff and absolutely shit at other stuff, you know. And that's why the village is so important because perhaps where you're missing something, they go to your best mate or they go to your sisters, you know, or your mother, you know, or your mother-in-law or whatever, friends. And so I think absolutely that exactly like you're talking about is a beautiful example of how that probably fed into your confidence, you know, and your nurturing. So let's pick up there. So you're heading towards your late 30s into your 40s. You've given away the idea of having a child. No. No. Oh, tell me more. No. So that relationship finished in my early 30s. Yeah. Then I was single and, again, just having, you know, a nice time. But, yeah, I was having a good time, had all my gay mates. But I was always like, I'm going to have a baby, I'm going to have a baby. Oh, you were. Yeah, and I was thinking, gosh, I was, you know, I knew that by about the age of 37 I was going to have to. But it was a matter of meeting someone then too. Sure. I can't just, I didn't want to just go and, I wanted to have that whole family. Okay. I was going to say to you, did you ever think about, you know, was freezing an egg a thing? I don't know. Not really. A lot of it that wasn't there. It was just starting to be talked about, and some of my friends had talked to me about it. But it wasn't that in there that it was, that I would have really thought about it. Do you know what I mean? Like I just went, oh, no, I'm just going to meet somebody. And then I did meet someone who was a little bit younger than me, and I was then 37. Yep. And then I said to him, I don't want to get involved with you, but because I want to have a child. And he said, okay. He said, let's go for a couple of years, and if we're still together, we'll have it. So as we went on, it was getting to that two years. Great relationship. We were having such a great time together, and I went and had all the tests done. Yep. And I was good to go. Yep. And I was about to hit 40. Wow. And I was good to go. Wow. And I went and had all the fertility tests and the doctors. I was saying at 40, you were, yeah. So I was in sort of, say, I was about to hit 39, but they said, you've got to do it now. Yeah. So I went home with all the tests and said, great, well, we can, you know, we've made it. There's never been any conversation about us not having one. There's always been. And when I put all of that down, he backed out. I know. Sorry, Sarah. It's been quite, that was, so that for me, and that then relationship didn't work for very much longer after that because it was too, it was too, it became an issue and it was just, it just became too emotional for me. Did that feel, did it feel like, this is a big question. Yeah, no, that's okay. Did it feel like grief? Oh, it was grief. It was grief. So that was grief, definitely. And then I, and then as we went on, he had a very strong mother of a particular nationality and she was still very old school and she never really liked me. So he had that side of things to deal with. So he's another sort of woman coming into the equation. And then he was saying to me, well, look, you know, it doesn't matter because we can still go for another few years and then adopt. And I was like, well, I don't mind adopting. But, I mean, this wasn't the deal. Like, I'm here now. That wasn't the deal. That wasn't the deal. So I, anyway, it became not good. And, yeah, and then my emotions then were just shocking. I was just really a mess because I was freaking out going, well, I've just spent, I wasn't going to get involved with you. I was, I am going to, I was, I've just spent these couple of years with you and it's great. Like, it was good. It was good. We were having a great time. But I can't wait any longer. And I put myself through all the tests, which was another big thing because I'd been going and having all the swabs and the fertility tests and the blood tests and the examinations. So I put my body through, which a lot of us don't want to go through when we have a pap smear. So I just learnt some good things about pap smears lately so that you can do them yourself now, which is great. Yes. I was happy about that. But, you know, there was so much more to that. So, and then to have that and then to realise, well, it's not going to work. So when we then broke up, it was terrible grief where I had to, I had to have a lot of counselling. And that was one thing my counsellor said, you're not just grieving from the loss of a partner now, you're grieving for the loss of a child. And that's what happened. And I couldn't because I said, well, I'm not, look at me, I'm not in a state to even go and have one now or meet a man. And I'm not going to do that to a man. How's the fallout from that kind of, look, and I understand people, I understand, you know, but kind of a deal breaker, wasn't it? The deal was broken. The deal was broken. And you got to, had to wear those consequences strongly. Yes, strongly. So keep going. I mean, I'll keep going, but if you can, if you don't mind. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, no, that's good. I don't mind. It's part of my story. So, yeah, so it would just be, so I just had to get myself through it. And when you're talking about feelings in body, and it went on for quite a few years, and it stopped now, where I would just think about having the baby and going, I'm not having one. Like, it's just, and then I used to get this really big, empty feeling in my belly. Like, I'd get this, like, it was like this empty feeling, and I'd go, oh, and then the tears would start coming up. And I'd go, because I, oh, and that's when Leah used to say to me, too, you always just wanted to feel it. Like, you just wanted to feel what it was like not just to be a mum, but that's so much, that's the biggest, not biggest, but big part, isn't it, Sarah, about it? Yeah. It's carrying the child. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. I didn't get to do that this lifetime. But people have said to me, as you know, I'm very motherly. Yeah, you are. And very nurturing. Yeah. And it's interesting, you didn't have one this lifetime. So I've just said to them on many occasions, I believe that we've been here, some of us have been here before this. Yeah. We've got different lives to do. And I just said, look, I'm pretty sure in my last life I was like Marketel. Yeah. With 17 kids. With 17 kids. And I think I've been able to bring to this life so much knowledge and so much love and so much joy, but I needed a rest. Yeah. So the universe is giving me a rest. I love it. So it's all going to be carried over into nieces, nephews and friends' kids. Aren't they lucky. Yeah. So was that pretty much the shutting of the door on, yeah, so that was the last opportunity. Okay. So and then by this stage then, obviously, you might be heading towards starting to start perimenopause, into perimenopause. Yeah. Do you remember a bit? Do you remember? Yeah, I do. Well, then it was probably another eight years. Yeah. So I went, my menopause came on quite quickly. Yeah. Just my period started to slow down in like probably around 49. Yeah. And then it was on and off between 49 and 51. Yeah. Sometimes very gushy. Yeah. Sometimes just not there. Yeah. I wasn't getting any, what's it called, PMT at that point. Yeah. Because I used to get a lot of that. Yeah. I used to get a lot of PMT, teary. So bad, wasn't it? Crazy, nutty, all the stuff that goes with it. Yeah. I mean, women go through so much. Don't they? So many changes and having to, and we have to be so strong to be able to get through it all. I know. And we have to find different ways. Yeah. To get through it all. How did you get through menopause, Jo? I just was very headstrong. Yeah. Was your body changing too? Yeah, so my body started to change. What was happening? My belly. Yeah. So that's one thing, Sarah. I've always, no matter how slim or tall or dance weight off, all that sort of stuff I've been, I've always had a little belly. Yeah. And it's even popped a little bit, even when I was slim. I believe it's stomach muscles. Yeah. Well, you know what? It's yours. It's Jo and it's yours. That's right. You know, you. It's been in everyone's, I call it the Joey Handley belly or the Handley bread belly. But that started to, yeah, I started to, I just, yeah, that was the first time in my life I started to feel a bit like, blah, body-wise. What is that? What does that mean? What does blah mean? It was just a bit heavy. Okay. It's a feeling. It's a feeling of, it's like, yeah, almost a heavy feeling. Yeah. Okay. It's almost like. Tired. You were tired too. A little bit tired. But it's just, you don't have that really big sparkly lift. Yeah. It's almost like you yourself drop a little bit. Yeah. You become heavy. I felt not heavy in my. It's a really interesting description because, you know, we lose a lot of estrogen and estrogen is like an elixir for get up and go, you know? Well, that's right. Yeah. And, I mean, that's another thing you should touch on later too is the estrogen because I've gone through all that and that's one thing that I've had to replace now, which is good. Yeah. But I just felt, I remember feeling heavy, just, I wouldn't say heavy, not weight heavy. It just, I just noticed a change when I was looking and I was going, oh, I've got to do something, all right. But I wasn't. Yeah. I was just sort of riding it. Yeah. I wasn't feeling great about myself. Okay. I was feeling mentally good. Yeah. But I wasn't feeling great about my body. Pants that I used to be able to fit into, I couldn't get, you know, done up across the waist and all that sort of thing. Or you would be sitting there and that big roll would start to come over the top of your jeans. But I knew it was my change. Yeah. I knew it was my being changed, but I wasn't that, I wasn't being, I wasn't being, I wasn't doing as much then either because I was living in Portugal when that all went through. Right. So I was. Did it change how you felt about yourself sexually around that time, those changes in your body, do you think? No. No. Not really. No. No. So you're in, so what, when you said I wasn't doing anything, when did you start doing whatever you were doing and what was it? To change myself? Yeah. Well, not bodily. I didn't do that for quite some time. Yeah. That just, I just put on weight. I actually put on about nearly 10 kilos. Yeah. I went from about being generally I was around sort of in my younger days probably around 60 kilos and in, you know, the latter part might have been about 70 kilos. Yeah. Then all of a sudden I became sort of 82, 83 kilos. Yeah. Actually, when I went through the grieving process. Yeah. I lost 10 kilos. Wow. Because I was that not well. Yeah. I really just dropped off. I wasn't eating properly and I was just emotional and I was not well. So I dropped 10 kilos, which was pretty incredible. Then anyway, going through that change of life, I put it on again and I got up, yeah, to about 82, 83 kilos, which for me is quite heavy. Right. Probably took me up near 16. Yeah. But I wasn't really worried about it. I was more concentrating on my mental side of things with the menopause. Right. Because I was at that point another thing to myself. Yeah. I've had bad relationships. I haven't. I've had good relationships that haven't worked out. Yeah. So that's the way I look at it. Right. That's life. So at that point I was going nearly about to go through, well, I started to go through almost getting into a divorce. Yep. And so I went to the doctors and I've always gone to a doctor and spoken about how I feel. Right. What can I do? And I've always gone off in my latter part of life and from the time I did the grieving with counsellors or a life coach to help me through. Yep. I'm very, very aware that you can't do these things alone. Yep. And I'm never ashamed to say I'm not feeling great. Yep. Got to fix myself. So the doctor was really good. She was in Portugal and she just said to me, look, your body's changing, you're going through menopause, you're also going through all these other emotional things in your relationship. And then she gave me this circle thing that I had to write what it was like in my daily life to how I felt mentally and then it really all came down to the menopause in my daily life and how we could kind of fix this. And she said to me, don't go on any HRT just yet because it's too early. She just said you just need to go and do fitness, start walking, have baths, do some meditation, go and read a good positive book, anything that's going to help you feel better. Yep. And I went and did Reiki as well in Portugal and that lifts a lot of negative energy up. And I picked up this book, I don't know what the name of it is, and the first thing in it was about menopause was like how we can change it. We can either carry the anger and all the frustrations and all the crazy things that come with it, but you can also, this book said, you can turn it around by healthy living. It's not going to work for everybody and I just read those three things. So I gave up smoking. I just gave it up. That was it for me. I was like I've got to stop smoking. Yep. I stopped smoking during a divorce. Amazing. Yeah, very crazy. And I was representing myself through that divorce too. Incredible. Across the world. So I was really like strong and empowered and just said right, I want to try and just get through this mentally okay. So I stopped smoking and then I did start, I started my swimming again. Great. Started doing laps. Yeah. Got back into that walking. Yeah. But I used to go and swim, I came back to Sydney then. Yeah. I had a big ocean pool by me and I used to go every single night and swim 20 laps. Amazing. So I wrote. Do you remember how you felt when you were, when you started doing those things? Oh, it was amazing. Both in your body but in your mind. Yeah. Did it make these changes for you, would you say? Yes. Yeah. It made the difference. Wow. It absolutely made the difference. Number one, I felt fantastic. I was like I finally kicked cigarettes. Yeah. Like I've just done it. I've never ever had a puff on a cigarette since that day. Amazing, yeah. And I was like I'm so proud of myself. Yeah. For doing that. So that was empowering. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. To feel so proud of yourself for doing something. Yeah. For yourself. Yeah. That's going to make a better person in you. That's obviously going to yield over to all those around you, but you're number one. Yes. And then the swimming became amazing. Yeah. And I just started, yeah, I started the laps again and I loved, loved, loved it, Sarah. Yeah. And, yeah, and then I got through it without any HRT. Yeah. And there was a time, I can't remember what it was or what I was going through, but I started to get a bit sort of depressed and I went back to a doctor in Sydney. There was a good doctor and she said the same, she did the same wheel and she said, look, let's see if we can get you to go and see somebody. She put me onto this great life coach and this life coach and I just clicked and I was going to her every few weeks and she also helped me get through by giving me exercises to do. Yeah. So you were really tackling it from the body point of view but also kind of from the mental. From the body and the mental. Yeah. From the body. But once I got back into what I love to do, which was swimming, it just changed it all around. And isn't it interesting? I love that you were back into your swimming and that as a little girl you started, because I really believe that we come back and we do the things that we actually loved when we were a child, you know, that really brought us great joy. And you were by a beach and then throughout your teenage years you were this great swimmer at school and there's this body memory but there's this memory of feeling alive and strong and all these things, you know, that you do it. Okay. So we're, Jo, now heading towards in your 50s and starting to really get a handle on, you know, how you're going to navigate your menopausal time. And then there's a bit of a handbrake moment again for you, isn't there? In the form of? Oh, the cancer. Yeah. She's forgotten about it. No. Are you okay to talk about that? No, I can talk about anything. I mean, yeah, I can. So how old were you, Jo? So I was 60. I turned 60, so I'm at 60. 60. So it was three, it was two years ago. Yeah, so 60. Yeah. Turned 60 and I'd lost three friends to cancer, three friends and another one who is learning to walk again. And that sparked me to really listen to my body. Yeah. And I had a pinched nerve, which I found out that's all it was, in my shoulder blade, right shoulder blade. So let me qualify that. You thought it was a pinched nerve? Or it was a pinched nerve? Yeah, so it had nothing to do with the cancer. Oh, it had nothing to, yeah. No, but by taking myself to the doctors and then going to have this checked, because it was a weird sensation that I kept, and I'd had it for about six months and I couldn't move my shoulder properly and I was thinking, oh, God, I better just get it checked. And because they scanned my whole back, top of my back, at that point it was the left hand, so that was the right, the nerve. They found the spot on the lung, on the left lung in that moment, which was a massive shock for me because I was sitting in this place going, oh, okay, hopefully it's going to be nothing. And what I'd gone in for had turned out to be nothing. Yes. But by that afternoon I was told by the doctors that they'd found a spot on my lung and it was probably cancer. And, yeah, and then my whole world got turned upside down. And it's like you have to, I had to, well, nobody could tell me if I was going to live or die at that point. I knew that I, I knew it wasn't big, so I knew my chances were pretty good of survival, but they didn't know until they put me through this whole ringer of, you know, biopsy, they biop your lung through the back of your, through the back of you into your lung and take pieces while you're awake. I had a funny story there because, again, mental health, body, you know, just the whole thing for me. I was in there with my eye mask, my spiritual sort of meditation, hearing things, my lavender oil. I was in the waiting room thinking, oh, because I knew it was going to be horrendous. Yes, scary. It was terrible. But anyway, just, yeah, that I just, I was really lucky to get through. So long story short, I quickly switched up everything. I had to, I moved out of my house, put myself in a safe place out near my mum and my sister and one of my best friends. And you had, did you have surgery and was that the treatment? So I had surgery. So because, okay, so this is a great thing, because I was physically fit, so they do lung capacity tests on you and I, and yes, so because I was physically fit, they said they were able to take out the whole left lobe of my lung. Wow. They said, and because of my age, they said had I not been fit at my age, they could have only taken out the piece of cancer and the surrounds. Wow. They could do the whole lot but they wouldn't recommend it because you have to be physically fit to get through having this, but the whole left lobe, so you're left with right hand, one, two, three lobes and the bottom half of your left lobe. And yes, so, or if you had been, if I had been older, they would have only been able to take the small bit out. So if they did that, then your chances of it coming back, it could happen, whereas they've taken out the whole lobe, so that won't come back. Yes. Do you remember feeling at this point in time, did you feel, because you'd always been this person with this confidence, you know, and this in your body particularly, did you feel confident that you were going to get through it, Jo? Like did you feel confident in your, not your mind, in your body, that it was, Jo, that you were going to get through it? I did, yes, I did. So, Sarah, that's where I then, I just went boom, boom, boom. I'm moving out of my place. I'm putting myself in a really healthy spot. They told me to even get through this operation, I was going to have to go out and start not running marathons, but I had to start running, walking, climbing mountains. Really? Oh, yes, I had to build my lungs up. Is that what they said? Oh, yes. So I had to really, really... Use them. Yes, I had to use my lungs. So I had four weeks. Hang on, this is after the operation, right? Before. Before. Yes, and then after. Yes, and then after, okay. Yes, but before the operation, to have this operation, I had to go into hospital even fitter than what I was and I had to really, really toughen up my lungs and that was by walking. So that was another reason I went back out to the northern beaches and I know my sister's into fitness and one of my friends, I stayed with, Francesca, she walks every day. Yes. And the beach was close by and there was just walks. Yes. And they said that's what we want you to do, walk, walk, walk every single day and breathe and I had to do all these breathing exercises because I had to go back and do lung capacity tests before I even went into hospital because if my lung capacity hadn't have been at a particular level, they couldn't... I wasn't ready to have this bit of lung taken out. Wow. Because the rest of your lungs can collapse... Okay. ...when you're in there. So I built myself again through physical fitness. So, no, I felt, not only mentally, like you said, but physically I felt, look, if my body's not going to get through so I can't do much, but I'm doing everything for my body and for the internals of my body to get through this and survive it. And again, it all came down to physical fitness. Yes. And I was, I just, it was great. You forget though, don't you, because you just said for the internal, like, you know, I think sometimes with all our fitness stuff and our movement stuff, there's such an emphasis on the outside and we forget that inside there's, you know, there's a heart and there's lungs that needs this as much as the muscles and the shape and the weight and all these other things. Not only heart and lungs, obviously, all the other organs, lymph, everything, you know, that needs movement. But because we can't see it. No, that's right. You know? And that's true, Sarah. I've just started with, I'm starting with Fremantle Hospital, a, I can't remember, pulmonary... Pulmonary, yeah. Yeah. So I've already been and had one thing with them. So they said what we need to do and they said it's not just you, Jo. They said, like, we're getting a lot of older people that we're bringing in here now to put them on programs because we need to build up all the muscles around the heart and the lungs. Yeah. And, well, that's for me. Yeah. And people that might have things with older people that have got liver and everything. So they've said all the muscles I've got to build up all around here and inside. So they're about to start giving me all these exercises... Fantastic. ...that are going to build up and strengthen your inner. So like you said, it's not just your outer. No. I'm about to learn about how to strengthen all my inner, which I thought was really incredible. That's incredible. And it makes you breathe. It makes you feel... And breathing. You know, it's breathing. It's the most essential thing in life. So, Jo, you've got through this. You got through the operation and you did a massive thing, as in you came and moved from New South Wales over to Perth... Yeah. ...with your lungs all pretty repaired then. So you were having to do some physio. But what does that feel like in your body now, Jo? It feels... I get more exhausted in, like, my breathing. Like, so I can... So this is why I'm going to be doing all these exercises. So I said to the doctor, I don't... So I went to the south coast with my partner and his brother. We walked up some hills and they could walk further than me without me getting puffed out. But I could walk a good distance, but then I'd have to stop and catch. So I'd spoken to the doctor about that and he said that's normal because your lung capacity isn't as great as what it used to be. But we now need to build that. And I said to them, look, if that's how I'm feeling now at 60, I don't want to be at 80 and I can't walk down the shops. I want to be as fit as possible. I want to manage myself now to get me there. And that's... Yeah, so that's where, you know, it's a matter now of... You can actually... You can fix yourself like that. I can be that person. He said there's no problem, you'll be fine at 80. Work at it. So this is... Yeah, leading into these last few questions, how do you feel, Jo, now? That huge, big story we've gone through, all those amazing things that have happened, and how do you feel in your 62-year-old body? The best ever. Amazing. Yeah. Tell me about that. Well, the best... When I say the best ever, the best that I could feel, I think, at this particular age, and I... Sorry, so I just tracked it. I went off the beaten track a minute ago. But, yeah, I'm feeling... As I said, I've got to build the lung capacity, so I'm not feeling the best ever that I've ever felt inside because when I get exhausted in the lungs, I get a bit nauseous because you start to get a lack of oxygen. And when you get a lack of oxygen, you feel a bit sick and headachy. So that's something that I notice on myself, that I'm about to manage all that and get it better. But as far as fitness goes, Sarah, I'm lucky enough to have a great partner that's very fit, and he's always encouraging me to, you know, just get it. If you can't do something, stretch. Yeah, right. Walk down the river or something. But I'm feeling great. Because of all this, too, I've now... I now... I just do exercise every single day. So I either do yoga, Pilates, I'm about to start swimming, I've joined the leisure centre, I've gone to the gym, I've got the program going at the hospital. So... And, I mean, it's crucial to you. It's crucial for everyone, but it's actually really crucial to you, isn't it? It's really rebuilding. OK, so tell me now, as Jo at 62, when do you feel most alive in your body now? What are you doing, Jo? When I'm exercising, actually. Yeah, I really am. I'm feeling... and sex. And I love sex. Yay! That's so cool. I do. I really love sex. I love that. But no, that makes me feel good, too, because I just lift all the endorphins and you just go, oh. It's like I described it to my partner the other day for me, and I said, you know what, that's like having a really good massage. I said, you know when you go and have a massage and somebody just first of all pushes on your back or something, and you go, oh. Yeah. And I said... Release. Yeah, and I said, as soon as we start that, it's really... it's a release. Yes. So I... yeah. But exercise, I'm just... I'm looking forward to it. I got up this morning. I went to the ashram. I did an hour and a half of yoga. Yeah. I just was in there going, wow, this is great. Yeah. Yeah, what a good start to the day. So I think... and for me, mental health, because I've got a lot going on mentally as well. I know I haven't tackled the cancer side of things mentally either, and I'm about to address a lot of that. But taking my... sitting around is not going to help. Yeah. You know, and I want to be healthy. And that leads me into... So how do you imagine yourself going forward into your 70s and your 80s? From your body perspective. How do you see Jo in your 70s and 80s? Fit. I see myself fit, bodily fit. I may put on a bit of weight sometimes. I may drop it off. I've definitely noticed a difference in shape in my body recently. I've got my waist back. I've got my belly. Jo's belly. Jo's belly is set. But my waist is coming back in. I'm standing taller. My posture is great. And I just want to be the best version of myself, Sarah, going forward. I'm not going to be... I can't function... Like, because I had such a great, lively young adulthood, mid-adulthood, I don't want to lose that going through. I know that I'm going to be a bit more older and a bit more tired because I get very much more tired these days. My body's probably... It's not going to have all the trimmings that it used to. You know, there's things sagging down here even now. Like, there is. It sort of drops a little bit down there as well now. Just a little bit, but that's okay. That's part of being a woman or a man. You know, we've got to... I'm just a believer that you've just got to be happy within yourself, but you've got to do the best possible thing to make the best version of yourself as well. And whatever way that is for you, that's great. So I see 70s and 80s, I want to be having a great time still. I want to be traveling and I want to be fit enough. I want to be fit enough to walk up the stairs, to jump in a pool, to walk onto the sand. And I don't want to lose... I came... My mum, so let's go back with her. At 86, yes, she's in pain. Yes, she lives on painkillers. She doesn't want to have any operations. But she still gets out and she goes and does some... She does some dancing. She does some Pilates, chair Pilates. She goes for a walk around the village. And she's out enjoying life. Yeah, and that's what we want for you too. Jo, you've been so generous with me. So, so generous and open. And I'm really, really... I am so grateful for that. And it's been absolutely fantastic. And what a story. Thank you, Sarah. And thanks so much for having me. I felt really proud and honoured that you'd asked me to do this. Because I... Yeah, it's great to have a story to tell and I just hope I can inspire other people. Yeah. And you've always been one of my biggest inspirations, as I've told you before. Thanks, Jo. Yeah.