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John has been in the mental health field for a long time. He talks about the integration of science, spirituality, and therapy. He discusses the unity of things and how wisdom and knowledge are interconnected. John also mentions the importance of being open-minded and non-judgmental as a therapist. He touches on the idea of consciousness and its relationship to mental health and healing. He highlights the importance of resonance and connection in therapy, as well as in nature. Hi, John. Welcome to the Easy Conversations podcast. Thank you for joining me this morning. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you for various reasons. We've been able to touch upon some of the work you've been doing and you've been in the mental health field for a really long time, so I'll let you share that with the listeners. But before we jump into our conversation today, I do want to give you an opportunity to share with the listeners a little bit about your work and your journey and what's brought you here today. Yes, I've been there. People have cried. But, you know, it was work. I was lost. You know, at the time, the next, in fact, some theologians hyphenate the term spirit-soul, two aspects of the interior life. And as I began to incorporate that in my practice, that integration, knowledge base, the integrated knowledge base of the two, the notion of science and, you know, sort of the synergy, separation, consciousness, you know, for the discipline. I mean, in this thing. But things began to wander. In medieval times, the liberal arts curriculum was developed by churchmen who were the head of institutions because they understood that all things were one. And they had, you studied, there was two prongs to it, basically. There was the study of traditional courses, you know, like history and math and science and so on. There was no Latin term for wisdom. So they knew that the science and philosophy and the arts only had meaning when they were able to be related to the wisdom literature of the world. You know, so, I mean, I didn't know that when I was an undergraduate. I just, I needed to take courses to graduate. But later on came into play as well. Because I had to take some sciences and philosophies and fine arts courses. Yeah. They all seemed like a smorgasbord. Yeah. And holes, you know. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting that you touch on that second half of life, because I'm curious, because for me, I decided to pivot later in life to become a therapist in my late thirties. So at that point, I've had some life experiences and I've seen things and I've learned that judgment is not going to help in any situation. So as a therapist, I also have an open minded approach when I'm working with clients. But in your case, you started really early in life in this field. Did you notice a shift in that second half of life as you were not only learning your own purpose in life and figuring out why you're here, how did your approach then change in the therapy world, if it did change at all? Obviously broadens one's, or should, in my view, broaden one's perspective, makes one more, and particularly the difficult times, crises they may go through. Properly digested and processed and metabolized, you know, they tend to deepen you. And I think that that can't really be a wisdom experience. I think it deepens you. And as it deepens you, it takes you from, you know, even the deeper places of your psychology to the, to the border of spirituality, because they're an extension of your own journey there, right? Yes, yeah, for sure. Yeah, but I think if there's an aspect to it, I appreciate you sharing that because you're correct. It is the way that life unfolds. But you also see on the clinical side, whether it's with clients or people around you, not everyone is willing to accept it, right? Or even be open to it. And there's a lot of resistance, which I've come to see as often shows up as anxiety for people, because they're trying to reconcile what's happening. And there's that, like I said, they're pushing back. So it is unfolding, but a lot of people aren't ready for it, right? And that in itself is a journey. Well, that's a, that's a certain resistance. For sure. Yeah. And you touched on the unity of things. And what I wanted to expand on, because when you and I chatted previously, you'd mentioned this paradigm of spirituality that you've developed, or even contemplated, and where there's this overlap of religious faiths. And to me, I, you know, when I hear that, to me, that's the idea of unity that comes up. But I'm wondering, what are your thoughts behind all of that? And what have you been able to formulate for yourself? Regardless of what they might, mm hmm. The sun. People massacred over different. And what is general relish quantum? Yeah. Yeah. Einstein spent the last 30 years of his life trying to do it. And he couldn't do it right up until the last few hours of his death. He actually was. Yeah, from from all his heart. Yeah. He's really in my higher vibration energy, the more visible it becomes, as it becomes in its various versions of life and so on. Well, in particular, one person who is a genius in his own right. I said that. Yeah. I don't know everything that are in the news lately is somewhat controversial, that are also consistent with that model that I put together with electromagnetism or light energy being part and parcel of. Yeah. So yeah, well, and you touched on light and the theory of relativity. And one of the things I've come to understand is, because of our limited understanding or conception of time, we tend to look at emergent things in that relative space of time, right? And that's where we get hung up. And I wonder, how do you tie that in with some of the prophetic figures that emerged at different times of our existence? And what does that mean from that side of things, right? When you kind of look at it from consciousness or the theory of relativity? In the world spoke paradoxically, to jar dualistic thinking and kick it upstairs a few rungs on the ladder toward, you know, toward reconciling paradoxes. And one of the paradoxes is, you know, has been science and spirituality. They've been around since the Middle Ages, you know, Galileo events, the telescope. No question if I understand it right. This example of Christ, because that's my experience, but other wisdom teachers, the kingdom of heaven, don't believe people when they say, you know, quote, so spiritual traditions that did he turn the time, space and time, the first to use spirituality and science in the same sentence, of course, it was in the 30s and 40s. And he was his Jesuit order failed to and the Vatican failed or threatened to excommunicate him if he didn't stop those teachings. Yeah, he was that spirit is the highest part of matter. And that one day science will develop what he called an ultra explain that today we have a few physicists out there that are spiritually minded that say it's a bit of an oversimplification, but not much. And they say things like, the spirit is just the physics we don't know yet, and that we're learning about. And so, so the paradox is, well, how you've done it, obviously, in this material body that we have, it's in the field of space and time, but it's not of it. Right. And that's my, you know, yeah, it's having a human one. Right. And having to awaken to that. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that a lot of the times that people who have had those near death experiences report seeing bright lights. Yeah. And it kind of goes back to what you were touching on with light. And one of the things you also touched on was vibrational frequency, which I've come to personally associate with consciousness as well. But kind of bringing this in a way full circle, what are your thoughts with consciousness and mental health and the healing that we need to go through? How does that tie together for you? Yeah. You're talking about a therapist's level of consciousness, hopefully being more holistic and being grounded in their gifts and talents, energically. The good example of that that I like to use when talking about this is that we're not really great at their craft, they would use a tuning fork. I was surprised to hear that, you know, like, for example, if you took a tuning, if you're trying to tune a particular guitar string, or violin string, to a certain key, you tap the tuning fork, you know, bing, and you hold it in proximity to the string, you don't touch it, but you hold it in relative proximity to the string, the string will begin to vibrate at the same frequency as the tuning fork. Not enough for me to know. Much more. Yeah. And I think if you expand that resonance, because, at least from what I'm understanding, and what you're sharing is, you're talking more on the therapist's side, but I think there's an aspect of that also on the client's side in terms of their own healing, right? As I've kind of gone through my own, I guess, conscious expansion, I've also healed and understood things differently and have had a deeper form of compassion and empathy, not only for myself, but those around me. But also on the alternative side, when I'm in certain situations or around certain people where that resonance isn't happening, I'm not at my best. So I appreciate you sharing that too, because that can affect us in terms of the social interactions we have as well. Yes. So, and I think that resonating capacity. I mean, when you're connected to clients at that level, you and the client are one. You're experienced. Am I breaking up a little? Yeah, I think that I appreciate that. No, we're good now. I appreciate that too, because there is an aspect of that resonance in nature as well, when you're one, or at least you can experience that oneness with all of nature. That brings about, for me, a lot of healing when I'm in nature, because there's no interference. If I can find that space where I'm alone, and then have that openness, and as you said, love as well, it does allow for a lot of healing. And I do find that quite a bit in nature, as opposed to being in the city, and not getting those opportunities to connect. They're particularly soothing. And I think mediate, resonating, and making people feel. Like I have my summer residence. My wife and I live in Florida, having two pretty much vacation spots to live in during the year. But I have some friends up here. We have a little cottage on a lake. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Well, Joe, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your own story and your wisdom as well. I do want to give you an opportunity, if there's anything else you feel like would be of value for the listeners that we didn't really touch on, because I know there's a lot of different aspects we did touch on, and it could take a lot of time to dive into each. But if there's anything you wanted to add, I want to give you that chance as well right now. So that's great. I will put that in the show notes. Thank you, Joe. All right. Very good.