N-YHS Interview Fr. Bird

Trinity Church, located in New York, has a long history dating back to 1698. It was originally part of the Church of England but later became the Episcopal Church. Trinity Church interacts with other religions, such as having a synagogue in residence at St. Paul's Chapel. The church practices its Christian faith but also aims to be inclusive and welcoming to people of all backgrounds. The church has had to adapt to the diverse community of New York, including immigrants, and strives to provide a peaceful space for everyone. Trinity Church is also involved in various programs and outreach efforts across the city. Additionally, the church plans to reopen its chapel on Governors Island for prayer, artistic programming, and summer programs for young people. Okay, so if you wouldn't mind, can you please state your name and your role within the Trinity Church? Yeah, so I'm Michael Byrd. I'm the vicar at Trinity Church. The vicar's responsibilities encompass all supervision or oversight of all of our programs. So that's all of our worship, all of our music, all of our education, all of our outreach across the city of New York in this building that we're in, Trinity Commons. In Trinity Church in St. Paul's Chapel, in our Retreat Center in Connecticut, and when it opened again, our chapel on Governors Island. Oh, what happened to it? Just in the years of changeover, you know, it was an Army base, then it was a Coast Guard base, and then it was no base. Yeah. We decided we should just hold off and see what was going to be happening on Governors Island before we sort of re-staffed it and spruced the building up. And it's becoming what now? Well, so Governors Island, you know, is going to have this massive Environmental Science Center as part of its development. And so we'll probably reopen the church for three purposes, and this is not any time soon. Got it. To offer, you know, a daily place of prayer for anyone who's so inclined or just because that great prayer in a community is never a bad thing. Two, we are spent a lot of time emphasizing arts as a hope delivery mechanism, but also as a point of reconciliation. So we'll do artistic programming there, and it's a great place for us to be running some summer programs for young people. Cool. So can you tell me a little bit about, I guess, there's a lot of history behind Trinity Church, but in a shorter version, can you tell me a little bit about the history of Trinity Church? Yeah, sure. So Trinity Church is a 21st century church that is governed by a charter from King William in 1697. So it's automatically weird. The thing that's also unique about Trinity is that it predates, right, it predates the country, it predates the state, it also predates our denomination, right. Trinity is an Episcopal Church, but at the time of its founding, it was part of the Church of England. So it's seen a lot. Yeah. And had to change a lot and adjust it a lot over time. So who founded the church? So when the Dutch, when the English took over the colony from the Dutch, the English citizens here petitioned, asked the governor to petition the king, for a church, because there wasn't one in this part of Manhattan. And this part of Manhattan wasn't much, right, like where we're sitting would have been outside of the walls of what was the city at the time. And the Hudson River used to come to right behind this building. There's an extra half mile of Manhattan. Yeah, right. So very different context. So they petitioned the king, the king granted them a charter, and so they were able to build the first Trinity Church, which was built in 1698. And that came with some land and some other things that facilitated their ability to stay open, but they were so worried, fun fact, they were so worried about their ability to keep the church open and to take care of it and to take care of the people, that there's a patent, there's a law still on the books in the state of New York, that says that any whale carcass or shipwreck that washes ashore on the island of Manhattan belongs to Trinity. Right, like at that time, those were worth something. Now it would actually cost you an immense amount of money. Yeah, but that just gives you some indication. So they were able to build the first church in 1698, which stayed until 1776. In 1776, part of the American Revolution, and nobody knows exactly who set the fire. Yeah, right. What is it? I think almost 30% of Manhattan burned, and Trinity was one of those things that burned down. Yeah, so this is now the third. This is the third built up. Yeah, now St. Paul's Chapel, which is five blocks north, managed to avoid the fire, right? The bucket brigade at St. Paul's was better than the bucket brigade at Trinity. And so St. Paul's did not burn down, which is why in 1789, when George Washington was sworn in as first president, they walked from Federal Hall. They couldn't say their prayers at Trinity because it didn't exist anymore, right? And they said their prayers here in Congress, 1789 or 1780? Yeah, I think so. Up at St. Paul's Chapel. Wow. So that St. Paul's has seen a lot. Yeah, like that building has seen some extraordinary things. So I had a question more on the side of Frederick Douglass's work. So I have a quote printed out for you. I'll have you read it. Yep, it's great. Yeah. And I agree. Yeah, most people do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so a question kind of based off of this quote. I was just wondering if the American ideals, I guess when the church was first being founded, and I guess up until now, if the American ideals of religious freedom and expression, has that influenced Trinity Church's religious practices and their beliefs since coming to America? And if so, how? Yeah. That's a great question. So one of the things that's tied up in all of this is when Trinity was founded as part of the Church of England, right, it was a state church, and the monarch, right, it was the head of the church, is still the nominal head of the Church of England. Obviously, after the American Revolution, we needed a little bit of a rebranding. It's not popular to be the Church of England. At the same time, you know, there were extraordinary ideals that sat behind the American Revolution, and many of the people who were engaged in discussing those things were members of what were at the time Church of England churches, and so they worked to determine what the future of this group would be. And that's what led to the founding of the Episcopal Church. The founding of the Episcopal Church, our canons and constitution, right, our structural documents, were formed at the same time as the Constitution of the United States. So as opposed to having a monarch who appoints a bishop who dictates terms, our entire denomination is structured democratically. So we have bicameral legislation, right? When we get together every three years, we have a general convention, and there are two houses, and each house can bring things forward. They're discussed in both ways. Both houses are composed of people who are elected, not appointed. So from the very beginning, that's been part of our denomination, which Trinity obviously saw happening and participated in, and that very much sits behind how we look at things now. And have those ideals that you just stated of religious freedom, have that, I guess, oh, you answered that question. Okay, so another question that I have is, does Trinity Church interact with other religions, and how does that look, and how's that evolved over time? Yeah, so you know, I think the world on any given day struggles. But as a general rule, I think we're much more aware of other people and other people's beliefs and the values that sit behind them in a way that we might not have when we were so sort of narrowly focused. Trinity, because it has sat in the center of the city of New York for so long, has had a great opportunity to interact with other religions, other Christian denominations, in a way, because we all understand that we have a responsibility that the people of the city have been entrusted to our care, right, we're meant to model the best virtues of what a citizen might be without getting into the complexities of Christian nationalism that we're sort of seeing today. So, a recent example for us is that, right, there's a synagogue who's in residence at St. Paul's Chapel, right, their Hebrew school, their Wednesday school, happens in the building here. We are buddies with Rabbi Darren. We are competitive around the dreidel from time to time, right, like all of those things. So, right, all of that is very true, but because we understand that ultimately our call is to love people and to help them be their fullest selves, so that's very much part of it. And then the other thing that I've just named that's maybe a little bit unique to Trinity is because of what happened September 11th, 2001, right, our world had to be bigger. Do you think that has impacted the way that religion is practiced within Trinity Church, like the interaction with other religions, or not so much? We are, I mean, we are, I mean, it's a difficult question in the best way. We are, right, we're a Christian church of a particular denomination that has a certain way it expresses its faith. To a certain degree, those things are tried and true and deeply important to us, and at the same time, because we live in an incredibly diverse, multicultural, fantastic place with tourists who come from everywhere, right, we have to be a little bit more elastic, I would say, in allowing people who are curious to feel comfortable coming in and not feel like they have to show some membership card at the door. So our practices, the way our Sunday bulletins that list the order of service, they're incredibly accessible, right, the church is open every day for many, many hours, and people, and I, right, one of the great things I get to do is spend time in the church and meet folks. People come from all over the place from many different religions. Mostly, no matter what their religion, they'll stop and light a candle, which is a uniquely, it's a sort of a religious moment, it's a spiritual moment, but it is not defined by your particular practice, right? So, you know, we've looked at those sorts of things while we're also trying to create places in our in our spaces that allow people to step out of the busy craziness of the world and find some peace, which is, I think, a universal desire. Yeah, for sure. So, like, on the note of, you know, tourists, more towards the side of immigrants, given that New York is an extremely diverse community of people, and that especially supports Frederick Douglass's idea of our composite nation, how has, like, the overflow of immigrants, especially, how, especially in when Trinity Church was first being founded and created, how has the influx of immigrants coming into New York City influenced Trinity Church? Yeah, so, you know, we have always understood that what we were given by King William, right, we didn't deserve, we didn't earn it, right? But it came with an enormous responsibility, and so, from very early on, Trinity has been very focused on raising up people who understand philanthropy as a way of life. Our churchyard is full of those people, in fact. There are two orphanages and foster care facilities that were founded by people who are buried there that are still in existence in New York today. At the same time, we've always understood our call to care for the most vulnerable among us, and oftentimes the most vulnerable among us are those who have newly arrived. And so, creating schools, creating programs, creating training opportunities, and all of those things have been part and parcel of Trinity's history for a very long time, and are, you know, they're reflected today, and we are still in that line. So, when the city determined that it was going to place those seeking asylum, right, call them our newest New Yorkers, in our neighborhood, into the hotels that are very close to Trinity Church, we didn't know it was coming, we didn't expect it was coming, but we had to figure out a way to meet the needs of those people who come from many different countries, with many different backgrounds, different needs, and so, with many different backgrounds, different needs, different languages, different religions, or lack of religion, and our call is to serve them, period. So, we're doing an enormous amount of work while we're also trying to support other organizations. So, do you think like new ideas have come into the church's community from other community members and other leaders within the church? Yeah, we're always asking. So, one of the things that we're able to do, which is a great privilege, is we're able to give grants to other non-profit organizations. We're always asking them, what are you seeing? What are you learning? What can you teach us? Like, we will never pretend that we know the answers, right? We just, we're just curious, right? And trying to find how can we help is the thing. At the same time, let's say on, if this were a Thursday afternoon, right, you would see 450 people downstairs in the lower lobby who were receiving clothing or food or legal assistance or English as a second language or job training through OSHA stuff and certifications. We didn't just make that up and guess that they need it. We talked to them about it. And as we've gotten to know them, there are other things that then have come out of it because they've taught us what they need. They've taught us what their interests are. They've taught us, you know, I was trying to come up with a good example about, you know, some of our spiritual programming has been reshaped. Some of that's based on language, but some of it is based on the fact that we don't have a common experience, right? And so how to find that, we are, the thing that is probably the hallmark of it is to Frederick Douglass, right, a deep appreciation of what it is that people are bringing with them and an abiding curiosity. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. That's, yeah, I feel like that's very, very important, you know, sharing what you know is equally as important and, you know, taking things and, so historically, have it been religious leaders or church members who are advocating within your church or, like, for change, especially? Yeah, I mean, I would say, um, you know, the Episcopal Church, Trinity Church, has a hierarchical organization, even though there's a, right, democratic bone sitting under all of it. Um, we have always made room for conversations and for ideas to bubble up from wherever they bubble up, right? One of the greatest disciplines that we practice is trying to pay attention, right, to what's happening around us. So, there have been times where it's the clergy leadership at this parish. There have been times where it's the vestry who are, they're non-clergy, but they're the, it's called the fiduciary leaders. Um, there are leaders in the congregation, but there are also leaders across the city who we are regularly in conversation with. Things, uh, particularly for us, obviously caring for our newest New Yorkers is profoundly important, but also the issues around affordable housing in this city, and so we're constantly soliciting wisdom, but we're listening, and we're hoping that we're, that people feel like they will be heard, right, if they come here. Yeah. Have there been any, like, disagreements within changes that have happened within Trinity Church? Big, um, changing, yeah, I mean, I, I'm trying to, I'm trying to come up with a great um, religion for people is deeply personal, right, and their identities are tied up with that. Anytime there's change, there's going to be a thing. Yeah. Right, um, we have, we have seen, um, significant amounts of, of change that have been hard to navigate. Uh, you know, Trinity was sort of in a really uncomfortable place, which I think is probably where it should have been, um, when Occupy Wall Street was happening in Zuccotti Park just up the way, but we were running a community center down here. We're obligated to care for people who are vulnerable, right? They needed things, right? We were open to them. At the same time, many of the people who worked on Wall Street did not love us for that, um, and at the same time, many of the people from Zuccotti Park didn't like us because we're on Wall Street, right? You, you try to navigate how you keep people in the conversation rather than shutting them out. Yeah, um, and the same is true, um, I think every church uh, went through the ringer when it came to pandemic regulations, right? Are you open? Are you closed? Are you masked? Are you this? Are you that? You're the other and the only thing you can do is communicate why you're doing what you're doing and then ultimately it's the care for, right? We have to start with caring for the people who are most likely to feel and then work away from it from there. So we, we've seen it all, um, you know, obviously it's a, our congregation comes from all five boroughs in New Jersey, um, so there's many different opinions. There are people in our congregation, um, the thing that we hold in common, um, is a sense that we are loved and we are called to love, um, and then we'll disagree about all the other things, but those are a little bit littler. Yeah. So that, I mean, that's what I'd say. There've been lots of, the, the amount of programmatic change here is, is enormous. Yeah. Just, you know, we, there was a time where St. Paul's Chapel was being run, um, as a school for Chinese immigrants, um, many, many years that was happening because they were on shift work. It was happening like 3 a.m. I mean, all those kinds of things. And then what time period was this? So that's in the 19th century. Okay. And, you know, then that wasn't the thing. Yeah. Right. There's a reason why we have, um, a retreat center in Connecticut, used to be our boys and girls camp because that was a real move. Yeah. Um, for fresh air opportunities for kids in the city and we had a camp on Long Island and, right, all of that stuff. Right. You're just trying to be able to respond to the needs that they do because the needs will not always be the same. Yeah. Great. I mean, I don't have any more questions for you. Um. They're great questions. I love this project. I'm, I'm enjoying it a lot. I know. I have two weeks left. It's going, it's going fast. Yeah. Yeah. But. So where are you in high school? I go, I live in Brooklyn. Um, I go to a charter school, Brooklyn Prospect Charter School. Um, yeah. And I applied for an internship at the New York Historical Society. It's one of the finest institutions in our city. I know. I know. It's amazing. I mean, we're focusing on one exhibit specifically, but, you know, we get to meet with all these curators from other exhibits within the museum and we get to go to other institutions like the Met and the New York Public Library. It's a great experience. Yeah. I've been really enjoying it. Good. I'm glad. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if, you know, feel free to change anything that was wrong that I said, um, but I just, I appreciate the time to talk with you and I just, I appreciate building an entire project on that particular piece. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's great. We're at where there's a trowel that was used for, to place the first cornerstone, um, from the central synagogue. Um, and that trowel is a part of the exhibit. So that was our like centerpiece for, and the project that we're doing. And then we decided to branch it off to all different religions and yeah. Yeah. Everybody's trying to, you know, in, in our best days, everybody is trying to build something together. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, we, obviously we, with Tony, the synagogue who's here, we have a wonderful relationship, but we're constantly talking to people and all I did was learn. That's the best part of my job. It's amazing. It is amazing. I'm so grateful for this opportunity. Yeah. Great. Well, thanks. It was great speaking with you. Yeah. I wish you the best on this. Thank you. Um, and I can, I'm not sure if you'd rather me contact Keisha or if I go directly to you, but I can always send you the recording before it goes. Anyway, just to make sure everything is perfect. If you send it to Keisha, Keisha will find me on vacation. Oh.