podcast 1

The transcript is a conversation between two individuals discussing the topic of child to parent aggression and harmful behavior. They talk about the importance of terminology and how it can impact families seeking support. They also mention the need to understand the intent behind the behavior and the challenges of labeling children as perpetrators of abuse. The conversation highlights the various forms of aggressive behavior and emphasizes that it can happen to any family, not just a specific demographic. The individuals acknowledge that this is a complex and evolving topic, and they hope that their discussions can provide helpful insights for listeners. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. Sorry, I'm just testing the audacity. So I just need to hit record, right? Hello, hello. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. Yes, it's coming up. Yeah. Check one, two, three. Hi, Matt. Morning. Over to you, Helen. Morning. Hi, my name is Jane Griffiths, and as Matt said, I am the founding CEO of Kappa First Response, and started up Kappa as a response to the gaps for families and professionals around this issue. And I was one of those professionals, Helen, that came to your website back in 2011, looking for information about this issue that I was finding more and more in the work that I was doing, and found it a really helpful resource. So that's how I connected with you a long time ago. Yeah, I mean, Helen came to a conference that we put on. I was part of a program called Break for Change, and we developed that in 2009, and we had a conference around that work. And I got in touch with Helen and asked her to come down to Brighton and talk at that conference and be a part of that conference. So yeah, I've known Helen for quite a few years now. Yes, and we've kind of worked together a lot. We've kind of ebbed and flowed with how we've worked together. But now, Helen, I'm delighted to say, is a patron of Kappa First Response, and really helps support us in the work we're doing. I think it was June when you started with us, Matt. So June, yeah, we'll be celebrating your half year with us before you know it. You know what? It does. You're right. And I have to say, I'm going to stop there, anyway, carry on, Matt. I would just end up digressing, Matt, and go in all sorts of different directions. And you know what? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Reina's back in. Okay. Okay. Can I start? I think when I started in 2010, working specifically in this area, which was 12 years ago, is that something like that? You know, it was very much termed a child using abuse, abusive behavior and violent behavior towards parents. So it felt very, it felt very set that that's what we were talking about. And I remember having a conversation actually with Helen, not that long ago, Helen, we were talking about so much has changed in 10 years. And we're having these conversations here and now in 2023, but no doubt so much will change in the next 10 years. So right here, right now, for me, CAPA stands for child to parent aggression and or harmful behavior, because I think that for me, help families understand what this behavior is, and doesn't, you know, create a barrier, which sometimes abuse and what abuse means to people and how it can get how it can get caught up in the domestic abuse field, which I know is what we're all going to talk about today. But I just setting my stall out a little bit that it can cause real barriers for families. And I think one of the things I was going to jump in and say them is that for me is what makes it so difficult for parents to relate to, because I think it's so polarized from the professional point of view, isn't it? It's like, should it be abused? Should it be aggression? What language do we use? What best sums up what we're talking about? And we haven't got it right. We're never going to please everybody. We know that. And it's a very emotive subject. So for me, I think that the danger or not the danger, that's too strong a word. But for me, the concern is parents aren't connecting with us or they're not getting support. So we need to figure out something that works, even if like Helen alludes to this umbrella term that maybe we're not all particularly happy with, but at least we can recognize it. But I think what we don't want to do or for me, what's not helpful is to try to categorize as in an area that doesn't help parents. So yeah, I think it says what it says, doesn't it? I think for me, and again, it's families that we've worked with, it's harder to connect with abuse. It's not saying that it doesn't feel abusive for some family members, not saying that at all, but for, yes, yes, yeah, yeah. And I'm certainly not suggesting that's not what we're, we don't want to take that away from anybody at all. But for me, that changes the intent behind the behavior. And it is aggressive behavior. I think it was Dr. Nikki Rutter, who we had to one of our network events, Matt, just not that long ago, that was talking about harmful and aggressive behaviors. It's very clear it is harmful, because it's harmful to everybody who lives there, including the young person using the behavior. And it's often aggressive, not always, but it can be aggressive. How it feels is unique to every individual, and whether that feels abusive or not is unique to everybody. So, so, I agree with that, Helen, but I think I have a hesitancy about it in some ways, just, I think for me, purely because, you know, emails from a professional a month ago, asking, do we support children as young as three? You know, we're working with families where children are six or seven. I think that labeling is a very, something we love to do. We love to label things and label behavior and label what we're seeing. And whilst I see the importance of it from a research point of view, a data collection point of view, which will help us, I suppose, equates to more support, more understanding around the area. Labeling a child who's very young, as a perpetrator of abuse, just doesn't sit very comfortably. And you're not saying that, and I'm not hearing you saying that, but I'm just, I'm very clear, you know, for our organization, the communities that we work with and the families that we've worked with about what we do land on has got to be right, hasn't it? It's so hard to get it all right. And I think maybe, does that go back to what, no, no, Matt, I was just jumping in. You carry on. Hmm. And I think one of the things I was just thinking about and was going to say is, how do we interpret the behavior of a six-year-old compared to the behavior of a 16-year-old? How do we interpret that behavior and how do we view that behavior as a family member or a society? So does it make it easier for us to label a 16-year-old as being abusive and it doesn't maybe help, you know, help us feel more comfortable with a six-year-old being that? I personally don't like the idea of saying a 16-year-old is abusive because for me, it's all behind what's behind the behavior. Why is it happening and does that help us then understand labels any easier? Because, you know, if we say, well, it's okay for the 16-year-old to pop along to the domestic abuse organization to get support, which is very clearly labeled victim and perpetrator, would we be as happy to do that for a six-year-old? So, you know, it does create barriers. But is the behavior derived from the same place and for the same reasons? Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think those themes will come out, Matt, as people listen more and we get more into talking about what we're doing and as these podcasts continue. I kind of think we'll unpick those sort of things as we go along as well. I don't think we can possibly, you know, answer it or it's such a big thing to answer. Yeah, yeah. Never going to, yeah. And I think our views and our, yeah, and I think we'll talk about that broadly as well as we continue, which is why I think having these sessions for us to talk about this, I'm hoping, will be helpful for anybody listening to it because it is about things changing. It is about discussing it in a way that I'm certainly not sitting here as an expert saying this is what has to happen. I'm just reflecting what I'm seeing with those that I'm working with and who I'm talking to and feel like it's just a reflection back as opposed to saying I'm sitting here as an expert saying this is what needs to happen. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes, yeah, yeah. It's also a big subject. It's huge, isn't it? So, physical aggression, hitting, shouting, throwing things, destroying property, refusing to listen to instruction from a parent is a big one. Parents talk to us about that transition. It's no, I refuse to do that, leading to screaming, shouting, meltdowns. Parents talk about three, four hours sometimes with a child screaming and shouting at them, just, you know, pulling apart their bedrooms, kicking holes in walls. Gosh, thank you. Throwing remote controls. Yeah. Threats, using themselves to intimidate a parent, using their strength, refusing to come home, refusing to pick up the mobile phone and talk to a parent, refusing to engage and communicate with a parent, refusing to go to school, you know, self-harm, not looking after themselves, like say that psychological stuff, stealing money. So, yeah. What they eat, what they wear, what time they go to bed, where they sleep, whether they have to sleep in a bedroom or on a couch. So, yeah. So, yeah. I've just, anyone, everywhere, anyone, anywhere. It's not a specific demographic, is it? And I think that's part of the problem in some ways, is that society still thinks it's a certain demographic of family that's impacted by this. Maybe it is somebody who is a single mum. Maybe it is somebody who is not putting enough boundaries in place and doesn't have family around them. You know, they're not parenting adequately, which is what's causing the problem. I think what's really important for families to hear is it happens to everybody. It can happen to everybody, sorry, rather than it does happen to everybody. It can happen to anybody, everywhere. It's understanding what this is. This isn't, for me, this isn't a belligerent child lying upstairs. And I think, Helen, you alluded to this a little bit, isn't it, what that intent behind the behaviour is. It's not very often a belligerent child lying upstairs in their bedroom thinking, hmm, how can I make my parents' lives miserable today? It's usually a child where there is a relationship fracture and a communication breakdown who is trying to get their needs met somehow. And that can happen to any family for lots and multiple of reasons. And I don't think it's something we can quickly say in a sentence who it's happening to and who it isn't. I don't know, what does anybody else think? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So, I mean, the families that we speak to and have spoken to over the years, there's a whole host of why it happens. Some of it can be grief and loss, trauma, adverse childhood experiences, divorce, adoption, mental health. I think we can't underestimate the impact of COVID and the impact that that has had and also how we are as a society and how we've kind of evolved as a society. And we're very much more about talking about mental health and anxiety and social phobia. And I certainly think that has, our children have heard that. And we're much more open and we're much more, we recognise it so much more. So, you know, the impact that COVID has had in the sense that, you know, for a whole demographic of young people not going to school and I can work from home, I quite like this. I didn't have to deal with getting up to school at a certain time. I didn't have to deal with people around me. I didn't have to, I've gone into an echelon of school, which I know we're going to talk about in more detail in a further episode. But I just, I think we, there's so many complexities around why it happens. And often it's a young person not having the language or the emotional literacy to express how they're feeling. And that happens for lots of different reasons. It's not because a parent has, you know, not put a certain boundary or a rule in place. You know, it's often because a, for whatever reason, a child is unable, and, you know, let's remember a child's brain doesn't stop developing until they're 25. So sometimes as us as adults, it's hard for us to express what we're feeling, but we're living so much more in a sense, you know, that there's so much around us. Sometimes it's hard to express what's going on and what we're feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Resilience as well, isn't it? I mean, your own level of self-worth, confidence and resilience comes into it as well. I think if you've got, we often say, isn't there, that, and some parents say to me, well, I've got three children and two of them are older and none of them behave like this. So why is my youngest behaving like this? Everybody perceives things very differently. I remember I talked very briefly about the Break for Change program that I was on, but I remember doing an exercise with six young people. They were aged between 12 and 15. And the question was, where do you see violent behavior in your lives? And they listed, you know, seeing violence everywhere. It was in lyrics of songs, it was in films, it was in the school playground, it was on the school bus, it was in their homes, it was on TV, it was in books, it was just everywhere. And I remember having that moment thinking, wow, you know, it is. And I think with the rise of social media, where things come into our lives and into our homes, we don't, we can't necessarily close the door on things as easily. I'm not saying violence is the root of the behavior at all, but I'm just thinking in general, what young people see and in some ways maybe normalize or become a bit numb to the behaviors. I think sometimes, yeah. And again, I'm not saying that's one particular thing. It's just something that came to my mind that just really floored me a little bit when I worked. And I remember thinking, as a teenager myself, if I can go back that far, as a teenager myself, yeah, you know what, I still remember having fights in the playground. I still remember there being violence around me. But it was about maybe having, like you say, having structures in place about resilience and confidence and how I was able to reach out to get support. Or it didn't feel like it was around me all the time. Certainly didn't feel like I could access it at 10 o'clock at night. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I also think one of the things that we need to make sure we do, and this is one of the things of setting up an organization like CAPA, every family is unique and every piece of work is bespoke because for what may be an issue for one family may not be an issue for another. What may be an issue for one person in the family may not be an issue for another person in the family. You have to look at each individual family and then what's going on to them. What's the bit that was the disconnect that contributed to a young person figuring out that actually in order for them to be heard, we all need to be heard, and for a child and a young person to be validated, they needed to actually use these aggressive and harmful behaviors in order to get something communicated to somebody and as an outlet for how they were feeling. And there are similarities within families and similarities in the behavior. Of course there are, but it's about working with what's in front of you. It's about looking and, you know, supporting a family and looking at what's going on for them. What's the networks? What's the history? What's happened? What's led to? And that way is how we can then help support families to change it, I think. So um so so so One of the... go on Helen um yeah yeah hmm And I spoke to a parent last Friday, so a couple of days ago, and she said I had a really good experience with a professional. They didn't judge me, they didn't blame me, and they listened to me and they wanted to work with me. And I think they're really key things. It's listening to what that person's experience is and what that family's experience is. It's not judging the situation or judging what's happened because it's often, as we know, not helpful. It's not about blaming anybody for what's happening. It's not about blaming the young person or the child or the parent. And it's about working with a family, just exactly what Helen said. The question, and we always ask a parent when we're working with them, tell us what works for you. Tell us what's worked so far. Tell us how you've managed so far because there's lots of positives that you've already done. So it's really listening and working collaboratively with the family. Yeah. But it's not setting you up to say you've got to go in and you've got to do this, this, and this because the moment this, this, and this doesn't work, a parent's going to be like, well, what do I do now? It's really disheartening for a parent to be told to do, you've got to do this, and you've got to do this, and you've got to do that. And then a young person's behavior escalates. Now, often parenting courses are all about punitive measures, about your child doesn't come off a computer at 10 o'clock, then you've got to take the computer away. That's going to escalate violence in a lot of families. So it's not about the punitive measures that are put in place. It's working with, I completely went off track with what I was talking about there, so you have to edit that, Matt. But I felt really passionate, clearly. It's not about telling a parent they've got to do something and have a punitive measure in place, because then a parent can become, it can often fracture the relationship even more. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's easier said than done, isn't it, Matt? I mean, that's what we spend our working week doing, is talking to parents about that, because it's not that easy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Connect with and find help with. Yeah. Yeah. A parent said to us not that long ago, Matt, and, you know, talking to us, it gave me hope again where I thought there was none. Thumbs it up a little bit. Yeah. Ending an outro. Yeah, I think we could sort of be a bit casual. It's been really nice to have this conversation, and I'm looking forward to sort of seeing where these take us, and I know that we have different subjects or different ideas of what to bring to each of the podcasts that we do do, and I think we'll evolve our style as we continue, won't we? No. I'm hoping to, yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really nice where the three of us almost want to say something at the same time to leave that stuff in there, because I think, you know, I think we've been very polite in the sense that we've waited for everybody to say something and then we'll say our piece. I think it's quite nice to have a bit of talking over each other and a bit of, like, our humanness come through, and I think as we continue to do these, hopefully people will warm to us talking about this, because we will have that element of, oh, and what about, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to the next one already. What is the next one, Matt? What are we thinking about for our next one? We're going to be talking about, if I'm right, about the impact schooling can have on families. Great. Okay. Okay. Great. Okay. Great. Thank you. Bye.