Shay Episode

Shay Martin, a therapist, discusses her experience as a caregiver for her husband with stage four colon cancer. She shares her journey of discovering her passion for therapy, her love for training her dog, and her coping mechanisms. Shay talks about how she and her husband met and their life before the cancer diagnosis. She explains the symptoms her husband experienced and the shock of the stage four diagnosis. Shay also discusses their doctor's approach and treatment plan, including chemotherapy and surgery. She shares the challenges they faced with an ileostomy bag and the recurrence of cancer in the liver. In today's episode, we sit down with Shay Martin, a devoted partner navigating the complexities of caregiving for her husband who's facing stage four colon cancer. As a therapist, she not only supports her husband, but also draws upon her expertise to navigate the emotional terrain of healing trauma. Thank you for joining us as we explore the intersection of love, resilience, and therapeutic insights in the face of life-altering challenges. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. You are a therapist by trade. What are some other things that our listeners can know a bit about you? Besides the fact that I'm here to talk about my husband's cancer, for my hobby, I train my dog a lot. He's getting trained to be a service dog right now. Hi, Luke. Yes, he's here with me. Yeah, he's here. He's darling. So, yeah, I do a lot of training with him every day, and I enjoy shopping to cope with my anxiety. And I'm in a master's program right now for marriage and family therapy. Yeah. Is therapy, studying therapy to be a therapist, something that you wanted to do always? Is that kind of a recent discovery of yours? When I was young, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, and so I did the prereqs for nursing school and hated that. I was a CNA for a little while, and I was like, yeah, I do not want to do this. I did not enjoy anatomy. So then I had a poor relationship with someone, and I went to therapy for the first time. And I was like, oh, actually, this is super interesting. So then I switched my major to psychology. Love that. That's so cool. And then marriage and family, what led you specifically to that type of therapy? Well, I'm from Arizona originally, and so I did psychology down there, and then I moved up here to go to UVU. And in my first semester, I took a class called Marriage and Relationship Skills, and that professor taught in the family science program. So I really loved the class, and so I switched to being, I was still behavioral science, but an emphasis in family science, and that usually leads into marriage and family therapy. So I like relationships. Yeah. And relationships of all kinds. Yes. Yeah. Me too. Me too. That's why we're here, actually. I'm so excited that you're here to talk about your husband's cancer. So can you give us a background of you guys? Like how did you meet? What's your story? Sure. So Tanner, Tanner's my husband. He also goes by Jiffy sometimes. He served a mission, an LDS mission in Mesa, Arizona, where I'm from, actually with your husband. That's right. And his first area that he served in was an area where I was living, and I was a senior in high school. So that's where we first met. And then I actually served a mission, went to some school. I was dating a lot of guys on Mutual up in Utah, I go to Utah a lot for dates, and Tanner is from Draper, and we just decided to hang out one time, well, we hung out multiple times when I'd come up to visit, and then one time we hung out, and then we made out, and then we decided to start dating. That worked. Yeah. Perfect. How long did you date before marriage? We dated for 10 months. And kind of just on the same thread, you got married, can you tell us a little bit about married life before Tanner's diagnosis? Yeah. We were just both in school. Tanner actually also wanted to be a marriage and family therapist, so it was fun. We took a lot of classes together, we took like a parenting class together and a human sexuality class together, so that was really fun. And then we just worked and did school, pretty much. Love that. How long have you been married now, and also how long were you married before his diagnosis? So when he got diagnosed, we'd been married for two years, and now we've been married for five. Okay, yeah, so more than half of your marriage has been this battle. How old was Tanner when he received his cancer diagnosis? He was 25. 25. Yeah, he was a month away from turning 26 and aging off his parents' insurance. That's crazy. It's horrible. It sucks. If I'm not mistaken, like Google essentially would say that's really young for colon cancer. I guess we should specify that. That is his diagnosis, right? Yeah. Is colon cancer. Yeah, he has stage four colon cancer, and yeah, it is young. This is so messed up, but Tanner used to say before he was diagnosed, he would say, oh, I feel like colon cancer is such an embarrassing cancer to get. Are you serious? Yeah. What an interesting foreshadowing. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the sperm of the bitch. It really is. That's insane. I can see like why he would say that. I mean, I don't think it's accurate, but it's cancer of the butt. So yeah, that's exactly what I was going to ask. Cancer of the butt. Yeah. I'm sure you get asked this a lot. What were some of his symptoms? Like, how did that even come to be on your radar? Usually that's not where you jump to. No, it definitely did not. We did not jump to that at all, although I did use WebMD, and I was like, cancer, but WebMD always tells you that. So he just had, probably for like eight months or so, he was having really bad stomach issues. And then about three months before his diagnosis, so he worked at a call center, and you sit the whole time, and he was just so uncomfortable, just like, he couldn't get comfortable when he was sitting. And then we went to Arizona for Thanksgiving or the week before Thanksgiving, and he was just basically like bleeding insanely out of his butt. Wow. Yeah, it was bad. A lot of like blood in his stool and then lower back pain, and it was really bad. And we went to his general doctor, and I have a bias against him now because I feel like I always need to just go to a specialist. It was, well, he, as bad as the pooping blood was in Arizona, it was about a week, but he had been occasionally having blood in his stool, which, yeah, it wasn't good, but it was really bad in Arizona. Yeah, something you can ignore. Yeah. So tell us about stage four cancer, like what exactly does it all mean, and what were both of your initial thoughts? So when he was first, when the doctor, oh my gosh, the way that they act when they find something, like he came into our room and sat down, and he was like, what do you like to be called? And Tanner was like, Tanner? And he like sat down in his chair and like put his hand on Tanner's leg, and he was like, we found a tumor, and immediately I started crying. And the doctor was like, it's like 99% sure cancer, and he got us in to see an oncologist, which is a cancer specialist, the very next day. And the oncologist told us, Tanner's so young, it's probably stage one or stage two, like, and he actually told Tanner, like, this is what you do at stage one, this is what you do at stage two, stage three, you do this. Stage four means that it has spread to other parts of the body. And so colon cancer is pretty aggressive, and once it gets to stage four, there's like a less than 14% chance of cure. Yeah, it's bad. Bad news bears. That's something that Tanner says, I don't know. Yeah, so the doctor told Tanner, like, you know, if it's stage four, which I don't think it is, we basically, like, there's not a way to cure it, you just treat for however long you can. And then Tanner got some other scans and found that it spread to lymph nodes and to his liver, so that meant, so the doctor called us and said it's stage four. Right. And it had spread to his liver and lymph nodes, and then now, today, it's in his lungs and kind of some other places, other lymph nodes. Did you feel, like, any anger towards that doctor, like, getting your hopes up that it wasn't going to be stage four? I didn't really feel anger, I mostly just felt sadness and shock. And this doctor, his name is Dr. Thompson, we love him, like, he actually gave us his cell phone number the very first day that we came to see him, and I was like, you can text us anytime, and I'm sure he regrets that now, because now that he's on vacation, I'm sorry, Dr. Thompson. That's really sweet, though. Yeah. He loves Tanner. That's amazing. What has his treatment plan kind of been from that point forward? I mean, I'm sure it's changed in a change of time. At one point, he had, what's it, the bag. Oh, ileostomy bag. Thank you. So it sounds like there's been kind of various things. Can you give, like, a brief kind of thing of what he's gone through, obviously chemo, et cetera? Yeah. So when you first started cancer treatment, he was on a super, super, super toxic chemo called Full Fox, and you only can do it, like, once in your life, it's that toxic. And people usually don't do the full treatment, because it just wreaks havoc on your body. But he did the full treatment, and it's 12 rounds of chemo, it's super, super gnarly. And then after the 12 rounds, he got something called a colectomy, I think is what it's called. That's when they move, remove part of your colon. He got the ileostomy because the tumor was so big that it was blocking basically stool from going. And so what happened was his colon made a little tunnel from his colon to his bladder. And so fecal matter was getting into his bladder, and he was basically peeing out fecal matter, and it was extremely painful. So then he got the ileostomy, which that was a trial of our marriage, because that is not fun to change. Yeah, you just said you didn't love being like a CNA, and then kind of got thrown into CNA. No, I hated being a CNA. And it's just like, it's just like really hard and uncomfortable. And it's a huge learning curve to figure out an ileostomy bag. And he had it for eight months, and then he had his, where they removed part of his colon, and then they got rid of the ileostomy, and I freaking got mad because I hated that thing. Tanner hates it too. I bet. I hate it. And then he was considered NED, which means no evidence of disease. After they did the chemo and the removing of the colon, for like a month and a half he was NED, and then they found more growth in his liver. They couldn't remove part of his liver at the time because it wasn't healthy enough. So they just decided to continue to do pill chemo. They did pill chemo, it didn't work very well. Then they did radiation on his liver, something called Y-90, which effed up his liver. Y-90 is when they go in and they put all these radioactive tiny little beads in your liver, and it just scarred his liver, and that's why he has so many problems now is from that treatment. So they did that, and then they did regular radiation, and then he's been too sick to pretty much get any treatment since then. His liver just is really struggling. So because he hasn't been able to get any treatment because of the Y-90, it spread to his lungs. So that's a really, really quick overview of the last three years. Yeah, I believe that. Where has... This is probably such a general question, I get that, but where has your mind been in all of this? I can't imagine, and I'm not just saying that. I can't imagine really any loved one watching someone go through this type of illness, let alone your spouse. Have you ever felt like you have to be the strong one, you have to be able not to put together? Have you felt like you've been able to grieve and everything? I mean, how's that been for you? So the first two years of his cancer, he was really functional, and so it was hard and scary, but I still had a lot of hope that treatment would work. And then the past year, it's just really gone downhill significantly, and the doctors told us there's basically no chance of him achieving cure, and so that means that this cancer will kill him. And one thing that I've noticed is that people are really good at checking up on how the loved one with cancer's doing, which of course, it's cancer. I get checks all the time, like, how's Tanner doing? But people often forget about the caregiver, and that's what I am, I'm the caregiver. And even family, his parents, they don't check up on them or me as much as they check up on Tanner, and there's a lot of hard things that we go through as well, even though we're not the ones with cancer. So for the first two years, there was a lot of hope. This last year, it's been a lot of grieving, just knowing that his body is deteriorating and failing, and that this cancer will kill him. I've been really active on my Instagram about helping caregivers and checking on the caregiver, and so I think people are a lot better at that, with me specifically now, because I've been so open about it. Yeah, and that's a wonderful thing to bring to light, because like you said, you get it, you're the one who's sick, and you know, not you, I'm saying the person who's sick, and you want to check in on the person who's sick and the person whose health is failing. But I can imagine it'd be hard, you're grieving, you're the caregiver, I mean, how much does a caregiver go through? Do you feel like you can relate to his parents a lot? I mean, I know it's different, you're a wife versus parents, I mean, they're slowly losing their son in the same way that you're slowly losing your husband, do you feel a support system through them? We, so we, I think we grieve very differently, me and his parents, and other people as well. At first, they were very much in denial about how sick he was, and I think it's slowly been coming to realization about how sick he is, and even then, some of his family feel that accepting that he's so sick shows a lack of faith, and I feel differently, and maybe it's because of my therapist background, like I, I can't swallow my grief, and so I think we grieve pretty differently, yeah, yeah. And that's okay, but I see what you're saying. Yeah. Talking about grieving and all this, you're pretty open about your husband's death being in the future, can you help us understand how you accepted that, and your process of your grieving experience? Yeah, so just how your mind works, you know, some people, I mean, you kind of alluded to that, how it's like your mind is maybe more, I want to say analytical, and I don't know, but what are your thoughts on it? My mind is definitely not analytical, my mind is very emotional, but, and I think that's why I've been able to be so open about my grief, it's because I'm very open about emotions, maybe it's a therapist thing, and I don't know, or a me thing, who knows. I wouldn't say that I fully accepted that he's going to die, I know that he's going to die, and sometimes I'm pissed about it. Good, yeah, you deserve to be mad at him. Yeah, I would be. Yeah, so sometimes I'm, you know, I go through the phases, like the phases of grief, I guess. Which is, are you kind of referring to like the whole like denial, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I don't think I've really, I'm definitely not ever in denial, I think I'm often in like depression, and I've been in bargaining before, but I'm not in bargaining right now. I'm usually in depression or anger, one of those two. Like how are you working through this? So we, before Tanner got diagnosed, we started seeing a couples therapist, she's the best. And then he got diagnosed, and then we've been in both individual and couples therapy, and now we're in family therapy with his family, with the same therapist. So she has helped us a ton through the grief process, just like accepting it, and just allowing ourselves to grieve. And then being in a master's program for therapy has also been pretty helpful. It definitely challenges me a lot. And then recently, probably within the last like six months, we started seeing a death doula, and that's been like, eye opening. Yeah, so interesting. What is a death doula? Yeah, so if you're familiar with a birth doula, someone that helps you through the birthing process. So a death doula helps you through the death process. It's non-medical focus. It's just on helping things, do things like an advanced directive. Are you familiar with an advanced directive? Briefly, but explain it for our listeners. Yeah. An advanced directive is what you want done, like medically, when you're coming close to death. Like what interventions you want, like if you want CPR, if you want to be on life support, what you want done as you're dying, as you're in the dying process. Like do you want people to help you brush your teeth? What do you want comfort level wise? So we were able to do an advanced directive. We were also able to do the medical power of attorney, which that is if someone is not capable of making decisions for themselves medically, then there's someone that they entrust to make those decisions for them. And they make the decisions based off of the advanced directive. Okay. That makes sense. And you said having a death doula is pretty eye-opening. In what other ways has it been eye-opening? So actually, before we got the death doula, Tanner and I bought our cemetery plots, and we bought a funeral package for Tanner. And we posted a reel about it, and tons of people saw it. And just, I would be surprised if, I mean, I'm assuming you guys don't have your cemetery plots purchased. No. No. We're not. Yeah. I'm 30. Yeah. Yeah. That's what most people would think. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like Tanner's 20, let's see, he's 28 now, about to turn 29, and I'm 27. And I would be surprised if anyone under the age of 60 that's listening has any of that done. Yeah. And we think that we're not going to die tomorrow, and we think that we're not going to get cancer. And so we do not prepare for death at all. Like this is crazy, but death is just so taboo here. And actually, I went to a training, and I was the only American there, and I was talking about this, and everyone that I talked to said, you know, death is also taboo where we are. Like Western civilization, well, people over in Asia that I was in a training with, they were like, death is super taboo for us here, too. So you know, people just don't talk about it, they don't prepare for it. And when it comes to people that are grieving, we suck at helping people through grief. And it's just uncomfortable. Do you think that is because people are afraid to say the wrong thing? Yeah. I went to a training, it was a grief literacy training, which basically means that it's teaching people how to help with grief. So the reason why people are scared to address grief is because grief is a reminder that each person is going to die someday. And so it's uncomfortable, and it's awkward. Death is an awareness of how little control we have over it. Like we really have zero control over it. And then yeah, people are scared that they're going to say the wrong thing to us that are grieving. And so they just don't say anything. Which can be just as hurtful as saying the wrong thing, if not more. Yeah. Like they don't say anything, or they say something to make themselves feel better, even though they probably think that they're saying it to make you feel better. Like for example, religious things saying like, oh, they're in a better place, they're with God, families can be together forever. Like do not say any of that to a grieving person. And if I hear you do it, I'm going to come punch you in the face because it's not helpful. Sure. Yeah. So are there any examples of things in this regard that could be helpful to say, if anyone's curious? And of course, maybe I feel really lucky that we have you on because you have, not only are you grieving your caregiver, but you also have this background in therapy as well. And you've done trainings and everything. And so either something for you personally, or that you can see for those who are grieving in general. Do you have any like quick kind of one-offs for people to start mulling over in their Yeah. Talk to them about the person they lost. Okay. Sometimes we think like, don't bring them up because it's going to make them sad. But no, like they want to remember them. They don't want to forget them. So ask them about them. Don't avoid it. Yeah. It can, that remind me, I had a roommate in college and her dad had passed. I didn't remember how he passed or, you know, what the situation was. And I remember her saying, yeah, his favorite cake was a German chocolate cake. And then every year around his birthday, we would, the two of us would just make a German chocolate cake. And she's like, that's, she's like, I'm glad that we can do this. You didn't even know my dad. You didn't even like, but it was like a little, a pleasant reminder. And so I can see why an individual who has passed, that experience I could imagine has hurt you, even though it's not the person's fault. It's not the person's fault. They got cancer. It's not the person's fault that they got in a car accident or whatever it may be. But I feel like sometimes we treat it as if I shouldn't talk about it because that person wronged you. And I don't want to bring up pain that you've been, you know, unjustly wronged. So I can see that. And thank you for sharing. Is there anything else besides talking about the person or do you think that's just like a good place to start? Just, I think that's a good place to start. Let's see what else I said. Don't distract them from their grief. Like so there is no medication out there that helps with grief. Like you have to process grief. You have to go through it. You can't avoid it. If you avoid it, then you get something called complicated grief disorder. And that's basically grief that has not been processed. So don't distract people from their grief. Let them, let them grieve. Be willing to listen to everything that they have to say and listen to listen. Don't listen to like, this sounds awful, but don't listen to comfort them because in reality, like you can't fix their grief. Just listen to them and be curious about what they have to say. And then of course refer them to professional help. Yeah, I can see that. Kind of like you mentioned, maybe your own advice, you know, if you're listening and then even if you think of things, I can see how it couldn't be very helpful because you don't know you're not trained or you're just, I can see why just being a listening ear versus I'm listening and they're in a better place. I'm listening and right. It's like, I get that you feel like you need to say something, but I mean, I'd assume it's good enough to just say like, thank you. Thank you for trusting me enough to talk to me about this. I'm here for you. And I know that maybe that feels like an empty promise, but you have to mean it. Like I am here for you and I'll just listen to listen. And it's hard. Like people feel like they need to like solve the problem. You can't solve someone's death. Like you can't solve the grief. You can't bring them back to life. So you don't have to say anything to bring someone comfort that is grieving. Just listen to them. Totally. I'd like you to share anything and everything about the death doula because I never heard of one before. So other things that we've done with the death doula, we, so we had a session and it was just me and Tanner and then it was his parents and my parents. And we talked about things that we feel like had been left unsaid that I'm sorry and regrets and stuff like that, like saying all of that to Tanner. So we felt like it was all off of our chest and stuff and same thing, giving Tanner that opportunity. So it was very emotional for all of us. We bawled our eyes out. We also talked about what Tanner wants when he's on his deathbed, what, where he wants to die. He wants to die at home. He doesn't want to die in hospital because home is home. What like sense, your five senses are really important because that's really a lot of what you have left. So Tanner loves fall. And so he wants it to be, he wants our living room to be decorated for fall. He wants it to smell like fall. Our death delight even encouraged us or encouraged Tanner to make a death playlist, just music that he loves that brings him comfort, you know, because he's going to be able to hear he's only, he's probably going to be in his like 30 or early thirties when he dies. And so he's still going to have those senses. And then what he wants to taste when you, when you're dying, you have to be really careful with food. So you know, like there are these little like sponge things that you can put in Gatorade or something, like put it in his mouth. So we talked about, we talked about all that. So that's what we did in that session. And then in the next session, we planned his funeral. So who we want to be there, who we don't want to be there, who he wants to be pallbearers, who he wants to like say his eulogy, yeah, write his eulogy and say it. What songs that he wants played, this was an interesting. So there's our death doula, her name is Camille or Cammie. She called them funeral maids, they're like bridesmaids, but for the funeral. And she was like, Shay, I want you to pick people to be your funeral maids, so that people that will like take you on a walk when things get too hard, you get too overwhelmed, like bring you water and food throughout the day. And so I picked some people for that. And then she also, she encouraged us to talk to the people that we want to participate in the funeral. So like, we know what song he wants sung. So we went and talked to my aunt, because she has a beautiful voice, and she's going to sing that song, my sister will play the piano. And then like what Tanner wants people to do in remembrance of him at the funeral, which wear something Star Wars, or a Star Wars tie or Star Wars pin or a sticker or whatever, because he loves Star Wars. So yeah, we did that in that session. And then this most recent session we had, was really interesting. We did a death meditation. And what are those bowls called that you go like, Singing bowls? Singing bowls? Yeah. I don't know if there's a better name for it. I don't know what they're called. I think that's what they're called, actually. Singing bowls? Yeah. So our death doula brought one over. And then we did a death meditation, it was long, it's like 45 minutes. And what the death meditation was, it took you through the nine contemplations of death. And I don't know what they are, I forgot what they are, but it was crazy. And then she took us through what your body goes through when you're dying. And then after you die, what happens with your body. So it was, it was really eye opening for me to just kind of get a taste of what Tanner will go through. And Tanner fell asleep during the death meditation. So I think he at least got through the nine contemplations of death. But yeah, that was our most recent session. So all of this with a death doula, I'm assuming it's been comforting for Tanner in some ways, right? Yeah. But it's been comforting for you as well. Extremely comforting. Tanner actually, so there's a, there's an oncologist called a supportive oncologist that kind of helps with stuff similar to a death doula, but they're medically focused. And Tanner was sharing with them about the death doula, which they were so interested in and amazed. And Tanner said, you know, there's not very much that I can do to help Shay, but this is something that I can do to help Shay. And so I think it's helpful for me, kind of the beginning of the grief process. It's been, what I'm experiencing is called anticipatory grief, knowing that Tanner's going to die. That's anticipatory grief. Right. And then grief when he dies is something different, but that's been something really helpful for me to have the death doula. Yeah. What a unique type of grief. A lot of people have grief. There are so many reasons to have grief, right? Yeah. But anticipating, almost, I don't want to say the real thing, right, but anticipating, I guess the event. Yeah. That is, I've never heard that term before. Yeah. It's really interesting. Anticipatory grief. Just knowing that how much sorrow I'm going to experience and like, like what my future is going to look like, it's yeah, the anticipatory part sucks. Yeah. You just mentioned your future. Can we dive into that a little bit? Yeah. Can you just let us in more, like, are you nervous about your future? Do you feel set up emotionally, financially? What are all the things that you're processing about your future? Yeah, that's a good question. I don't really know how to emotionally prepare. I feel like I'm doing the best that I can, but when Tanner dies, I know I'm going to be a wreck and I probably won't be able to work as a therapist for a couple or a few months. I rent my parents' basement, and so I know that they'll be super supportive when he dies. I use the term when he dies, that's something that my, our death doula has helped us with because it's not if you die, it's when you die. And so that's why I use it, when he dies. Anyways, you know, we have frozen embryos. We have 12 frozen embryos that we froze back in like July, and we were planning on doing an embryo transfer in September, but then Tanner just got so sick. We've put that off. And I think, I don't know that we will have kids while Tanner's still living just because of how sick he is. But that's one thing we've talked about, is me still having our kids even after he dies. And I might be a single mom or I'm, I, right now I don't really feel like I want to remarry, but I might remarry, who knows. That's one thing that me and Tanner have talked about. And when you sent me the list of questions, we talked more about it. And I told him like, I think if I were to ever remarry, I think I would only marry someone that was a widower that knows what it's like to lose a spouse. Sure. It's complicated. So I think I would only marry someone that has also lost a spouse like half or will. Is that conversation on remarriage and all that, is that something you and Tanner in general agree on? Is he like, you have to get remarried. Like I want you to have a companion or is he like, I don't want you to get remarried. Is that something you kind of agree on or is that? He has said he wants me to remarry. One thing he did say is please don't bury him on top of me when you guys die someday. He's so funny. How can you make a joke out of it? You should have seen him when we were shopping for funeral plots and he made the people so uncomfortable. They were just, he just said like, just make sure that you don't bury him on top of me because that's weird. And I was like, and the people at the cemetery were like, do I laugh at this? Like, Oh my gosh. Anyways. Yes. Tanner does want me to get remarried right now. I, Tanner is the best person I could have ever asked for my whole life. And I just don't know how I could marry someone and just not compare them to him like the rest of my life. And my family loves him so much. And so right now I don't know that will happen. I have a lot of confidence. Maybe it's bad confidence in myself and being a single mom, but it's also hard to have a lot of knowledge about child development and to have been an adjunct professor at UVU and taught about child development and make the decision to be a single mom because it really affects kids. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And often it's, often it puts kids in poverty. I think my situation's pretty different because I will have a master's degree and have a really good job. So anyways, I'm not there yet where I'm making the decision of being a single mom and getting remarried, but it's stuff that we've talked about. Yeah. Yeah. And you shouldn't have to be pressured to make that decision with everything going on, obviously. Yeah. But I think it's beautiful. I think it's beautiful that you have embryos, you have the choice, right? Is that pretty common for people who are, did that happen before he started his treatments, like his chemo treatments, or was that like a decision that was made later on? So when he was diagnosed, they told him to freeze his little swimmers because chemo can just really negatively affect sperm. And so he froze his sperm before, and then about two and a half years into his treatment, when we found out that he was terminal, we were like, oh my gosh, like they originally told us two to five years, probably. And so we were like, okay, we have some time, we can have a family. And the only way to do that is for IVF with us. And so that's when we did the IVF auction and raised money to do IVF. And then I went through getting my egg retrieval this past summer, 2023, and then we made them into embryos in July. Yeah. That's beautiful. How was the egg retrieval? I heard it was pain, like I heard pain, especially I've heard like people say that if they haven't given birth before, it's like, I don't know, a little harder to get up there. I don't remember that part of it. Okay. They put me out for it. I, like, I did have some pain after and I was at risk for, I think it's called ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome, where like my ovaries, they, I think they retrieved 46 eggs, which is a lot of eggs. Yeah, it is a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And so my ovaries were working a lot, they were working hard. And so, so yeah, I did have some pain and some bloating after. The shots suck, they burn, and I gave them to myself because Tanner was too scared to give them to me. God bless his heart. I know, he doesn't like shots, so. It's a little ironic, considering I'm sure he's had his share at this point. Yeah, he can't give himself shots. I have to give him shots and he can't give me shots, so I had to give myself shots. Oh my God. Yeah. All those things I don't really think about, thank you for sharing the death to all of this. It's a lot to go through, especially at your guys' age. So where do you personally find your biggest support? I think I probably get my biggest from a couple different places, but definitely my parents' huge support, massive, massive support for me. And I've always had a close relationship with them, so they live upstairs right now, and so I have easy access to go up and bawl my eyes out when I need to. And then I have my therapist that I see every week, her name's Abby, and yeah, I do find comfort in my religious beliefs as well, just I believe in Jesus Christ, and so I rely on him a lot. Sometimes I'm pissed at him and I'm pissed at God. Tanner's therapist told him one time that it's okay for you to be mad at God because he can take it, like he can take your anger, which I loved, and so that's a process I've gone through as well as I go through a lot, actually, is being mad at God, and just like, I know that you can heal Tanner because I know that it's happened before and you're not doing it and I don't know why, and so sometimes I get mad at him, but I still use my belief in Jesus Christ as a place of support through this. I'm glad you can talk about that, because I feel like in religious settings, if you say you're mad at God, people have, it's scary to have judgments or people think, well, you just don't have faith, but I've also gone through something where I'm like, I'm just mad at him, I don't want to talk to him, and I've actually said a prayer, you know, I'm mad at you, and it actually was healing. It's kind of like you have to go through that process sometimes if you're feeling that, don't push it aside. Yeah, for sure. On your social media, and I recommend people give you a follow because I've learned a lot, I really have, and something that you mentioned that stuck out to me was grief tourism. I've spoken about it with my husband, Taylor, who knows Tanner, and we've just kind of talked about it, and I think it applies probably, again, probably with everything with grief, not just this specific, you know, anticipatory grief, but can you talk more about grief tourism? Can you tell me what that is and let's just talk about it for a bit? Yeah, so there's grief tourism, there's also something called hero tourism that's talked about a lot in the cancer community, but I'll start, so I'll tell you what hero tourism is, it's basically like idolizing someone going through cancer, like saying, you're so strong, and like, they're forced to go through this, it's not their choice, they're not choosing to go through cancer, and so a lot of people fighting cancer, and even people that are cancer caregivers don't love that, being viewed as this amazing, like heroic person. Grief tourism, this is a quote that I got from an actual cancer patient, they're anonymous, but grief tourism, they said, it's like window shopping, I'm not actually going to buy anything, or the comparison to real life, or help, but I'm curious how the dress would look on me. So it's like, and you know, people are curious, and I get it, I'm a therapist, like I'm a therapist because I'm curious about people's lives, but you know, grief tourism is something very different, and it's a selfish motivation, but like, you know, just asking questions, and then not helping someone, just asking questions because you're curious, but then not doing anything to like help them, or like, this is something that happens a lot, and I'm sure, I know that people mean well, and it's about intention, but also about the effect as well, but saying like, I'm here if you need anything, but then not ever doing anything, like leaving it to someone that is grieving, to come up with an idea for you to do something, like that's super unhelpful. Interesting. I'm here if you need anything, you let me know. Yeah, you let me know. It's kind of like, that's like the last thing on your mind right now. It's like, versus like, I'm here if you need anything, by the way, here's a DoorDash gift card, or like, here's a meal, like, it's like, you're saying it and being like, you can always reach out to me for this. Here's like, I'm moving first, I'm being proactive. Yeah. And so, like, I have become very aware of that. And so when people say that, I'm like, at first, I'm like, I'm not going to accept help from anybody. But now I'm like, all right, here's what you can do for me. Good for you. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm like, well, I'm just going to skip that whole thing and get over my own pride. And yeah, you can bring me dinner, because I don't have energy to cook dinner for me and your Tanner, because it's just, it's exhausting. But that's a little bit about grief tourism. Do you have questions about it? I actually want to know about hero tourism. Do you feel, obviously, maybe with the cancer patient, people are doing that. Do you feel the same applies to you in a sense, people telling you, because I do believe you're being really strong. And I'm sure at times, if you don't feel like it, but you're, you're sitting here, you're talking about this, you know, you're working through this to the best of your abilities. Do you feel like that applies to as well people saying, oh, you're so strong, I could never do what you're doing? I could, or do you feel like it applies more to the, to the sick person, or do comments like that even bug you? I think it probably depends on my mindset when they say it to me, because sometimes I'm like, I literally don't have a choice. I am waking up every day and surviving. And sometimes, like my survival is me going to school, and I didn't do any of my readings that day for school, and I am surviving. And so like, people don't really know what I'm going through. All they see is like, oh my gosh, she's in school, and she's working. And I'm like, I'm forced to work, like Tanner can't work. So I have to pay our bills. So I'm forced to work. I need to get school done so I can earn more money in general. And plus, like, I've had my teachers tell me, you don't have to be strong, like you can put off school. And I'm like, no, you don't, you don't get it. I can't put off school because in a year Tanner could be dead. And there's no way in hell I'm finishing school if that's the case. And so I'm just like surviving and forcing myself to go through it. So I think it probably depends on my mindset for the day. I'm in a good mindset today. So if somebody's telling me like, wow, you're so strong, I'm like, thanks. But another day I'd be like, I am literally falling apart. I'm not strong. Yeah. It's an interesting juxtaposition. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you've had many supporters cheering you both on from near and far. You've had some pretty amazing trips, Italy and Alaska. Are these bucket list items or simply living life to the fullest? I would say both. Italy was my bucket list item. We actually went to Ireland and did a vow renewal in Ireland. And that was Tanner's bucket list item. He wanted to go to Ireland. And then we have family in Alaska. So that's one thing that we decided pretty early on in his treatment is that we do want to live life to the fullest, especially knowing that Tanner's life is limited. We wanted to, you know, do things together. And so we've tried to be really intentional with experiences over like buying physical stuff. Although we still, like I said, I shop to cope sometimes. Yeah. But going on trips has been important to us. He's too sick now. We are going to go to Asia in like a couple of weeks. Dang. Yeah. If I'm not mistaken, did Crumble sponsor some type of trip, the Crumble Cookies? Yeah. How does it feel, I guess, accepting something large? And I don't know if like other trips have been, you know, sponsored by other people or, you know, family members. I don't know. But because you kind of mentioned maybe, and I don't want to say it's pride, right, but like a little pride, like I don't need help. I got this. But then, you know, that humility of like, no, that's actually really awesome. We'll take that. How does that feel? I would say at the beginning of the cancer diagnosis, it was way more uncomfortable for me. Like we did a GoFundMe at the very beginning and I was just like, this is so uncomfortable to even share that we have a GoFundMe. Now it's not like I'm like, give me stuff, but I'm like, that's so nice and like thoughtful and generous. And like it was just, yeah, it was just really nice. There's no way we would have been able to go on the trip without Crumble. And yeah, we're better at accepting help now. Yeah. Is there something that makes you feel loved and supported? Supported. Yeah. Supported. Okay. Yeah. What, I guess, just out of curiosity, makes you kind of, you know, supported, but what, is it just love because people don't really know you? The difference between like love and supported? The difference between love and supported? Yeah. Yeah. I would say that it's like people, people don't really know me. And so I feel, I feel so much support from like people that don't know me. I think once I meet someone in person, so for example, we were in Arizona and there's a follower that I don't know. I didn't know. And she messaged me and said, Hey, I'm going to come bring you like blankets and like treats and stuff. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that's so nice. And then I met her and then I felt love. Makes sense. Yeah. And so I felt her love. I think on Instagram, it can be hard to like feel the love until you like meet them. And then you're like, wow, they're a real person and they like really do like care about me and Tanner. And that's a weird, super weird experience that people that don't know us like be talking about us. Super weird. Yeah. And, and then I meet them and they're like, Oh, I saw like, I was telling my friend that she and Tanner are in Arizona and, and I'm going to go see him right now. And I was like, you guys talk about me? That's so nice. Wait, so like what, what is the story with Crumble? Like what happened? Yeah. When my, when we decided we were going to do an IVF auction, my dad is really active on LinkedIn. And so he wanted to recruit a bunch of Utah based companies to donate products to use in our auction. And so a bunch of people tagged Crumble and then the Crumble CEO, his name's Jason. He's a Saint. He commented and said, I would like to donate a sum of money to Shane and Tanner for IVF. And then Crumble would like to send them on a vacation. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that's so cool. And I was thinking like, Oh, like Park City or, you know, something like that. And then we went to, we went to Crumble to talk to Jason about everything that he had said on LinkedIn. And he said, so where are you going to go? And I was like, I don't know. He was like, well, I'll send you anywhere in the world that you want to go. Oh my God. And I was like, this is not happening. This is not real life. And I jokingly said like, to the moon? And he was like, if there was a way for you to get there, I'd pay for it. And I'm like, you're such a kind person. So kind, so generous. And when we met him, like I really felt the love from him. Like he was just such a kind, happy person. And Tanner was there with us. And then we decided that we were going to go to Thailand and Japan for our trip. And we can't go now because Tanner was too sick. But we got trip insurance. So we got the money back for, I don't know. If he's well enough someday, we'll do it. Yeah. Awesome. Oh, so the Crumble experience kind of came to be from social media. Yeah. What inspired you? Because you don't have a separate page, do you? It's just your personal page that has kind of turned into you sharing your story. It's not like you're having this separate page. Yeah. Does it bring you comfort to share yours and Tanner's journey as well as bring awareness? It's like my journal, my Instagram. So yeah, posting on Instagram is kind of like my journal of how I feel. Like I post on my story a lot on how I feel. And so I think it's one way of coping. It's also a very easy way for me to let everyone know how Tanner's doing. Instead of answering a million text messages, because I get pretty overwhelmed answering a million text messages. So that and then I've been able to like spread awareness about colon cancer and about grief and about therapy. So I've used it for that as well. So, well first, do you feel like ever since you started sharing that people are more open and talk to you? Like, do you feel like that wall is kind of down? Yeah, for sure. I think it's opened a lot of conversations. I've had a lot of people reach out to me and say like, hey, my husband or uncle or whatever, they're having these symptoms. Should we go get checked out? And I'm like, yes, go get checked out. Skip the general doctor, go straight to a, what is it called? A gastroenterologist, I think, GI doctor. So in that way, and then I've also had a lot of people reach out to me about like, what should I do for this person who lost their spouse or grandma or dad or whatever and can help them in that way as well. So I think I'll for sure be an advocate of like colon cancer, colon cancer awareness, cancer awareness and not, breast cancer gets a lot of awareness. It sure does. We're happy for breast cancer and other cancers need awareness like breast cancer has. Especially like the taboo-y type cancers like you said. Breast cancer. Breast cancer spoons. Well, those are a little more appreciated than that. Those are a little more appreciated. And then grief as well. I'm assuming in general, probably grief gets brought up a decent amount with clients. Yeah. Is that something that you feel like you can relate more to your clients about? I mean, I don't, I've gone to therapy, right? But I'm not a therapist. So I don't know, I guess kind of like that line. Like it seems like you're wearing two different hats, right? You're a human and you're going through all this stuff, but then you put a different hat on and you're talking with clients about their own struggles and griefs and, you know, things that have happened to them. Yeah. Is that a surprising balance that you've had to figure out? I definitely put on a completely different hat when I go into the therapy room. There's like one instance where I will wear both hats and that's when like I had a client that was a caregiver for her dying husband who had Lewy body dementia. And I'm really young. And so she, of course, thought that I had no idea what I was talking about. And my supervisor said, you should tell her that you're a caregiver for your husband that's dying. And so I usually wouldn't, but in that case, I told her and that completely changed the therapy for us. And she had a lot more trust in me because I had been there. So I knew what I was talking about in that sense. And then grief is experienced by people that haven't experienced death. I have worked with infidelity and there's a lot of grief that comes with infidelity. And there's just a lot of grief in general that's not connected to death. So I think I, I have a niche now for grief specific to death or dying, but also it helps me in other areas like working with clients with infidelity. So I found a therapist that I saw for a really long time on Better Help, right? Not sponsored, but Better Help. And something that I struggle with is child sexual assault. As well as borderline personality disorder. So it's kind of able to find, I guess like a bit more of a, a niche in a way someone who's a little more experienced talking about that. Is there a niche that you're specifically interested in or going to study? I don't know if like saying grief, that's kind of like a broad thing, but just out of curiosity, is there something, a specialty? Probably three that I really want to, well, three or four, three, four that I really am interested in and currently work with that I really enjoy. I really like working with infidelity. I really like working with grief. It's sad, but I, I like it. And it feels really, really rewarding. And then medical trauma. And then just general anxiety. I enjoy working with as well. That's great. Yeah. Do you, do you personally struggle with anxiety? I mean, I guess we're sitting next to our little absorber of it. And can you actually talk more about having a therapy dog? I guess for those who are unfamiliar with it, or people who are even considering needing or wanting one. So like when we got Luke, he was just an emotional support dog. And he was just an emotional support dog. And then I was in school to be a therapist and decided I was going to train him to be a therapy dog. And then Tanner's health got really bad. And my anxiety got like out of control bad. And his trainer said, well, why don't you train him to be a service dog to help you with your anxiety? And so, yeah, I do, I did struggle with anxiety before Tanner's diagnosis, but it's like magnified my anxiety symptoms, him having cancer and then him being so sick now, anxiety and grief and anxiety and anticipatory grief, unfortunately really affect each other a lot. So, yeah. Part of the reason we want to do this podcast is to show various ways of healing, right. For the conventional therapy. 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