1st official podcast recording

Mr. Sumit Dev is an assistant professor at the Indira Gandhi National Centre of Karnataka. He works in cultural preservation, focusing on both tangible and intangible aspects of culture. His role involves preserving artifacts, manuscripts, and audiovisual material. He had a decisive moment in college when he realized his passion for cultural preservation. He played a role in documenting the Pandharpur Wari, a 700-800 year old pilgrimage tradition in India. The Wari involves thousands of devotees traveling for 21 days, singing, dancing, and worshipping Lord Vishnu. Mr. Sumit had the opportunity to experience the Wari firsthand and it was a life-changing experience for him. Meet Mr. Sumit Dev, an assistant professor at the prestigious Indira Gandhi National Centre of Karnataka, under the Ministry of Culture, Government of India. With a rich portfolio of diverse projects spanning cultural documentation, curation and education, Mr. Sumit brings a wealth of experience and expertise to the realm of cultural preservation. His contributions to significant initiatives reflect his dedication to safeguarding and promoting India's cultural heritage. Join us as we dive into Mr. Sumit's journey and insights in the field of cultural preservation. Hello Mr. Sumit, how was your day so far? Hello Sakshi, thank you for having me here for the first ever podcast that we are doing on behalf of the club that you have set up. It's a very good initiative I must say. And this is a very beautiful campus and I am really loving my stay here since last night. I love to hear that. Thank you so much. Okay, so let's start off with your job or role. Not a lot of people are aware of what cultural documentation or preservation looks like. So can you tell us more about your job and walk us through a day and what it looks like? Well, it's important to understand what culture really is. We have this idea that culture is something that can only be seen in auditoriums, through performances and through festivities and so on and so forth. But actually culture is here everyday. What you wear, the way you speak, the rituals that you perform during a festival and a couple of other things like your thoughts, your beliefs and everything put together. So when we talk about culture, we look after two aspects of it. One is the tangible aspect of it which can be seen. There are monuments, there are icons, there are paintings. This can be seen. But what happens to the process behind that? The makers of the painting, the painters and the festivals, the food, cuisine, the fairs and whatever happens associated with a festival. So that is what culture is all about. And basically what is my role as a preserver, as a custodian of culture. I would like to call myself a custodian of culture and not really a preserver because that is a strong word. So what we do is we have a huge collection of artefacts, we have a huge collection of manuscripts, knowledge, a couple of masks and thousands of paintings and artefacts. These are all part of our cultural archives. These are part of our manuscript inventory. And also we have a lot of audiovisual material which are digitized. Looking after all of that and following a particular method of protecting them within the institutional capacity, within the institutional framework. Sometimes it becomes difficult but we go a little farther because these are the things which will take culture one step forward and bring it to what they call the Generation Y. Generation Z I think. We are Generation Z and we have another generation after us. So yes, it is important for them also to know the importance of culture. Also your career is kind of non-traditional, right? So was there any moment in life that you can recall where you know this is what I want to do? What was that moment for you? There was a moment. If I recall my journey when I was in college, my parents who really wanted me to pursue some competitive exam and become an officer or if not an officer or something else which I became but in a different way, in a different trajectory altogether. So there was one moment when I was, so I began my career as a journalist with the original radio Kolkata. So I was sent for covering a dance event somewhere in the southern capital at a very very prestigious auditorium and there I met some important artists and spoke to them for the first time. And then I realized that okay, so this is something I would like to be part of. Not as a performer but you know as a spectator, as a person organizing such programs or maybe part of an institution that deals with culture in general which holds exhibitions, which holds regular dance and music concerts and so on and so forth. So that was the decisive moment when I realized that okay no I don't really want to be a quote unquote officer doing a lot of heavy and you know things which are not part of my understanding. I put it like that. I mean I don't claim that I have a lot of understanding but the little that I have is connected to my life and what I grew up with is into music and watching good ratings and all this. Do you remember who you spoke to, the artist that you spoke to, do you remember her name? She was Mamata Shankar, the daughter of the legendary artist Vidar Shankar and she was the one who organized this festival. If I remember the time was sometime in 2004, 20 years before. That's a very long time. Yeah. So for those who are unaware, you also played a very pivotal role in the UNESCO documentary heritage for the Pandharpur Wari specifically. Right. I want you to tell us what it is about, what the Pandharpur Wari is about, how it originates and how was your experience being there? Right. So actually what happened is, this is still in process. So I was very little aware of the Pandharpur Wari in the beginning to be very honest. All I knew was about Santoparam and Santyaneshwar, these two things. And I also knew that there was a temple in Pandharpur where Lord Vishnu is worshipped. So that's how it all began. I was given that, you know, this project is here and you have to give it up. And I was supposed to send a team of videographers and media team to cover that. And I was little, very little aware how it's going to happen. And I just sent the team. The team went. So they became my Sanjay. Sanjay, when it is Sanjay, you must have read from the Gita. So they directed me that this is what it is all about. And then I realized that, you know, sitting at your own office in the comfort of a room and in a very pedantic manner, you will not be able to understand what it is all about. You have to go with the team to understand. So I recall in 2019, and actually those days it was before the COVID, so one could travel from one place to the other very easily. So I went there and I met a very old professor, an author, Vala Manjul. And he guided me through this space and the rituals and the wonderful Wadi. So when we talk about Wadi, Wadi is a word which means something that happens time and again. So it's a 700-800 year old tradition where Lord Vishnu is worshipped by a group of people, a group of devotees who are called Varkaris. So they go from their homes for a 21-day pilgrimage to Khandarpur and then they come back. And it happens every time during the time of Ashari Ekadashi. So that is the biggest Wadi. But this is not the only Wadi that takes place in the year. There are four Wadis that take place in a year. But this Ashari Wadi, which is sometime between the dates June and early and mid-July, so that is the most popular. Thousands of pilgrims, they take up Tulsi, the holy basil plant on their head. Some actually carry Veena. Some carry their symbols, small symbols and they sing and they dance. And they sing something called the Abhams. Abhams are compositions by saints who are known for their devotion to Lord Vishnu. So they sing that. It's a spectacular kind of a vision. And it crosses past Alandri and Debu, the two places, and goes to the Pune city. And further it goes up to Vivekhar and other beautiful places. And then they go up for 21 days. They stay on a camp at different places. So it's like a mobile city, which is moving from one place to the other. And that too in the name of God. And very peacefully, unlike the other, when we think about 10 lakhs, 15 lakhs living together, there is always a chance of there stamping or something like that. But this very, very organized, peaceful gatherings of groups which are known as Bindi. So they move singing songs, dancing along, reading, chanting. And some people also walk on foot. And they cover a distance of about 250 kilometers within 21 days. And days and nights, sometimes they're walking, sometimes they're resting, participating in community eating and cooking and all this. So this is what I was worrying all about. And this is the tradition which is known in India. But we want the world to know about it. Because we have something called this. And this is not limited to devotion and not limited to worship alone. The songs, the food that they make, and the lifestyle that they follow, and the bags that they carry, and the food, everything, everything matters. So this is all part of a larger spectrum of the Indian culture. So that's something that we are focusing on when talking about Udaipur Wali. So were you there for the 21 days? Yeah, thankfully I had the opportunity also. One fine morning, the day before was a very hectic day at work. There were a couple of programs, there were regular office work. And I was in two minds whether I would be able to carry forward this 21 days. Because when one is used to this erratic lifestyle, this erratic office work, so it becomes very difficult to think about something like 10-15 lakhs people, how would you run the world, how would you find. But there's something which we call the sound, the voice from within. And then you must go. So I got there and then I didn't look back. And I landed at Pune and there was a lot of issues finding a car to take me to the location when my team was already there. So this was the second time that we were documenting. We had a team of cameramen and all of that. They were also jostling with a lot of issues, grappling with a lot of situations, and they were still documenting. The first day went like that. And towards the end of the first day I arrived. And 21 days. Rakshi, I can't tell you. It was such a life-changing experience for me. I realized what it means to be part of a pilgrimage, which people have written about, people have made films on. And many scholars have written about this in a very lucid manner, some in a very academic, theoretical manner. Some people wrote novels around it. So it's quite a huge experience. And experience of meeting people and the way they are compassionate towards their fellow beings. So that is very important. I'd like to share a small anecdote. I remember there was one of the temples. It's called the Sopan Kakamandir. Sopan Kakamandir is somewhere near Pune, in the vicinity of Pune only. So the Palki, I think I didn't mention this, so I'll interject and tell you what a Palki is. A Palki is basically, it's not just the pilgrims, not just the pilgrims walking towards the temple, but they are walking with the saints. That is, they take the Padukas, Padukas as in the footwear, the divine footwear of the saints, they carry in a Palki. And nowadays they have something like a chariot, which is basically a vehicle, which is decorated in a nice way. So there are several of these saints who are celebrated, so it's like walking with the saints. So they have Palkis of Shantaparam, they have Palkis of Shambhyaneshwar, Muktabai, and other, Sopan Kakam and other saints. So they have particular days of studying, so the first Palki is of Shantaparam, the next day Shambhyaneshwar starts his journey. So that's how this is happening. And there is something called Ringan. Ringan is a festival. It's like a sport, I would rather say. So basically what happens is, there is a horse, which is supposed to carry on its back, the absent saint. Like it is believed that the saint is riding the horse. And there is no one riding that horse. And the horse is let loose, it takes a round, in a circle, sometimes in a circle. So these events are called the Uge Ringan and the Gold Ringan. The Gold Ringan is the round one, and the Uge Ringan is the straight one. So anyway, to come back to my point, what I was trying to say, the compassion, the amount of, you know, where the word, there is a phrase, which Shambhyaneshwar uses, which is from Vishwadigraha, which is, this world is my home, which is very much similar to what is called Vasudev Purvabhadram. So that sense, among the, you know, saints, so in the Sopan Kakam, when they are standing, it was quite a scorching day, quite a, like, it was quite a hot day, and I was standing at a corner under the sun, on itself, and the floor, Ramayana, the floor of the temple was very hot. A very old lady, standing a little close to me, she said something to me in Marathi. So I looked at her and I couldn't exactly follow what she is saying, and she said in a very broken Hindi, that tuhara jhoota kama hai, it's very hot here, how can you stand here, why don't you stand under the shades. So that was one moment, I realized that so much compassion, she doesn't know me. She hasn't gone to a university, she is not an academic professor, but so much of compassion, and so much of love for the fellow beings. So then I understood that this is the essence that needs to be captured. I have actually heard a lot of stories about the marriage of my grandparents who have been there, and it always makes me want to be a part of it, and hopefully in the future one day. You must, you must. I have seen university professors, social activists, even students, in not the entire division, but they do take part in the body, and this is a cultural experience of sorts. So hopefully one day we can all experience it. Also in today's world, religions, culture and religion are often used very synonymously. And like you said, how do you see the intersection between culture and religion, particularly in the context of projects like the Panchalpur marriage, which is also very religious? What I would say is that first of all, religion is a word which is given to us by the West. Religion is something that binds. In our culture, in our way of understanding, there is a better word, which is not synonymous, not even close to religion, which is dharma. Dharma is something that holds, which doesn't bind. If you break the thought, it actually talks about binding. So dharma is something which is nature, and duties, and if you look at our Indian texts, Bhagwat Gita, Bhagwat Gita was interpreted in the Marathi by Shri Gyaneshwar, which is known as Gyaneshwari. So, where he talks about, there is something special called the Gayadharan in the end, where he talks about, you know, the ideal nature of the society, and what should we do, what should we be doing. So, when I look at Pandharpur, this is more about dharma, this is more about, like I was just mentioning, that I met a couple of people coming from different universities, and, different universities, and they were also working, and some of them, it's not necessary that they all, I mean, they carried out worship, they did not like that, the entire ethos, that the Pandharpur Wadi has, so that is there, I mean, when you talk about dharma and Sanskriti, these are, in a way, intersected, and these are very much well connected, and when I see this, for example, take the example of, say, the Durga Puja, right, so after a point, it is not limited to worship, but it becomes something larger than that, it involves a lot of economic, generational economics, sustainability, and you know, arts, and so many people aren't from this kind of a festival. So, this is something beyond the limited understanding of what we understand by religion, it goes beyond that. So, I would say that when you talk about, say, dharma, I was told by a very senior professor that to qualify something as something to become a religion, it has to have certain qualities to it. For example, it has to have a deity, it has to have a way of worshipping, it has to have a central text. So, when we look at something like the Pandharpur Wadi, it has all of that. The devotees are known as Swadhis, the way of devotion is Swadhi, the text, Gyaneshwari is there, and Vrindavan washes the deity. So, this is a mix of all of that, and if you look at artists, like the Ramayana, the Mahabharata, Ramayana, it talks about Ilahakari, it talks about the dharma of a king. Sometimes I feel it gives me goosebumps that just imagine in today's situation, that if you are offered something and the next day you are maybe in the context of job searching, you are offered a post and next day you get to know that no, you are not getting the job, you are asked not to take that job. So, a lot of depression, a lot of how could they do this, and a lot of this, that, this, that. And here is one avatar of God, a supreme human being, he is being asked that no, you can't become a king tomorrow, you have to go to the jungle and spend your 40 years over there, and he accepts that of course. So that's the dharma one does for their parents, that okay, my father has given this promise, so I'd rather keep that. And then look at Krishna for example, if we look at the Bhagavad Mahapurana, Lord Krishna is protecting an entire village, he says that don't worship Lord Indra, you should worship Giri Govardhan, the mountain Govardhan, and then they do it, and then it starts raining, they say oh Krishna what do you do? And he says no, don't worry. So he protects the people. He dives into the river to save his village from a very poisonous snake. So this is dharma. And the saints, what are they saying? They are saying that you are beyond, it's not your life, it's not limited to which caste you belong to, which creed you follow, it's not about that. We all are children of Maudi, Yani, Vichal. So we all are equal, and that's why in Bhagavad Mahapurana, when Namdev is writing this Remus about when he says take the Vichal and chase the Vichal and go to the Vichal, everything is Vichal. So that's, I think, at the fulcrum of dharma, it's at the fulcrum of what culture. So we should not consider only religion, because religion gives a different connotation altogether. Ours is a dharmic, spiritual society, which you should, I think, respect that. Makes sense. So you did share about the heart forming movement being higher than the values, but I'm pretty sure there were a lot of challenges that you must have faced. Right. So can you tell us a few of them and how you managed to overcome them? Yeah, I remember the last day, the penultimate day, so the Ashwani Ekadashi fell I think the day before, so probably the custom is there is a place just before Pandharpur where all the Palkhis on the scenes, they wait. And before Ashwani Ekadashi, there's you know, all the Palkhis are standing there, and then one after the other, they enter the town of Pandharpur. So the rains, there was water, knee deep water, so you can imagine how difficult it was for us. So leading a crew, and the thing was people asked me, what about the crew members and all of that. The crew members said, we are not important. If we fall sick, we can still get well, but what about these equipments? So devising mechanism to do the equipments, that was a major challenge. And the other challenge was to find a spot to shoot the last day of the body, where there are 15 lakhs of people in the Andhra Pradesh. So finding a spot and where finding old houses, talking with people, walking through people's quarters within the house, and excuse us, we need to go to the terrace, things like that. So these kind of difficulties came, and sometimes we had a lot of difficulty finding a place to stay. So that was also taken care, and I think when you go on a pilgrimage, this gives you some kind of emotional, as well as mental strength, that okay, we need to do this. Not so much success, but accomplishing a goal of sorts. So this is one moment I remember, the last day was quite challenging, and finding a place to shoot, and the other problem was, sorry to share this, so sometimes to get better shots, we used to find, we used to use the drone, and there was a lot of administrative issues with the drone, so there were several moments when we just finished the drone shot, and the administration came running to us, the post-commissioned duty, so furnishing those papers, and collaborating with your office, finding out your letters which were sent to the government officials, and so on and so forth. So this was another thing. Once our, almost we our drone got confiscated. So that was quite an experience, and we were really not sure that what will happen now. Was there also language barriers, or was it easy? Sometimes, I would say this is very interesting, that you know, sometimes, when you are on a mission, and you are doing things, you go beyond the language barrier, and you cross that, like this old lady, she said in a broken English, and also, making people understand, we used to sometimes do gestures, that this is what we are doing, but move aside. But everyone, everyone, including the police officers, and the policemen, they were all part of it, very much part of this entire thing. So that bit was a collaborative event, and I don't say that it is only us who did it. The people who participated, they were also part of it, even the administration, and the organizers, they all supported, journalists, friends, I met new people, who took me to, you know, places which were otherwise difficult to reach. So, these are some of the things that I think, I remember when I, as it is raining outside, it's taking me back to that moment when we would actually use that very wide documentation, yeah. Moving forward, you also were involved in a lot of educational initiatives, such as conducting workshops, digital archiving, audio, but you also teach, you are an associate professor. So, how do you see education, you know, education intersecting with cultural preservation? Education is very, very important because we were asking some school students about their idea of culture, and some of the students, maybe from the 8th standard, 9th standard, they all demanded that there should be a separate course on cultural preservation, and I think it is important that we we inculcate this sense of culture and preservation of culture, not only through practices and clothes and food reasons, but also to be respectful towards the heritage. When there's a, like, something which is, which can qualify as a heritage material, to have respect for that, to be told that, you know, this is something that has been passed down, handed down by your ancestors. So, it starts from there. Like, there's this phrase in English, charity begins at home. So, I believe that culture begins at home in the first place. And while teaching, we always try to make them understand, make the students understand that, you know, in the western context, there is always a distinction between the tangible and the intangible, but in our system, everything is connected to everything. Like, I used to say this in the morning today also. Like, if you look at just, say, something like making of a sari. So, it involves so many, so many stages, so many people, so many stakeholders. So, these are the things that we highlight and education, school education should have a course on heritage, understanding heritage, what heritage is. And also to, like, I remember in my childhood, some years back, when there used to be a festival, our teachers used to encourage us to do something, make a rakhi, make a, like, make some painting on your scrapbook. So, this kind of activity, and write a little paragraph about, you know, about the festival. So, I think this is something that is getting diminished as our screen time is increasing, especially even with the students. So, doing something in that mode, rather than not watching mindlessly, one can create something around, say, a festival, about a monument that you want to tell the world about. So, these kind of things, I sometimes go beyond the box and I say, okay, the PPTs and the PDFs and the books, they are all available. I can extend this conversation of understanding the wider nature of culture and the need to, you know, preserve that. So, that is something that needs to be inculcated within the student community as well. Yeah, I totally agree. Because, like you said, festivals are something that are, you know, something that bring people together. I remember making rakhis for Akshavandhan, or making, you know, Ganesh Chaitanya for Ganesh Chaturthi, things like that. But, unfortunately, because everything is so accessible now, that part has become very, you know, people have stopped doing things like that. So, I think in that way, cultural preservation is very important. Okay. From your perspective, what do you think are the obstacles that are hindering us from cultural preservation and development? First of all, what I understand, that, you know, sometimes, in a way, we are not very respectful to the things that are there. Like, there is something called a Museum of Everyday Objects, and there have been initiatives by people like Imran, build your own archive at home. Like, just take out things from, you know, from your collection, from whatever is there. So, the first and foremost hindrances are, I think, sensitivity to a large extent. We are not made sensitive to culture. I would like to talk about someone like Professor Mohan Koker, who was a professor at the Varadha, Varadha, MSU Varadha. So, he started the dance, you know, he started the dance department over there, and then he was avid collector of objects. Be it one little matchbox which has an image of a dancer, from a Nataraj geometry box, to a pencil, to a speaker, to a fridge magnet, everything put together. So, that sense is somewhere lacking. I think that is one of the hindrances. The other hindrance is, of course, you know, proper preservation mechanisms and all of that. They kind of require a lot of financial and administrative support. Sometimes, due to situations, some things are thrown out. So, I think that, you know, more awareness should be generated by the institutions. Okay, you cannot look after some 100-year-old object readily. You can give it at a museum. You can donate, make a collection. So, this kind of an approach, I think, is going to help. And these are particularly, but this intensivity is the biggest problem, rather than we are sitting on the financial issues. That growing sensitivity is very difficult. I was talking to somebody very recently, and she had a huge collection of photographs, and some photographs are duplicates, and some photographs are not in good condition. We said, what is the point of keeping them? Just dispose it off. So, I was in a position, I said, okay, let's not dispose it right away. We can keep it somewhere in a safe corner. So, that is the first idea, that everything has to be preserved, and nothing is unimportant for an archivist. When it comes to art, becoming an art collector, or an archivist. So, these are the things, I think, one should be careful about. Okay. As students, when you go to the subject, or when you are organizing successfully, you feel very rewarded, you know, you think that you have finished this work, this is why I am struggling. Has there been any moment in your life, where you felt that, you know, all my work and this is my reward. Any rewarding moment that you have experienced? Yeah, there was a rewarding moment, I must say. So, apart from the intangible heritage, there is something called documentary heritage, that UNESCO does. Very recently, I think, two years ago, we were working to create a dossier for documentary heritage. Documentary heritage includes, you know, manuscripts, older documents, older videos and audios that bring important matters of culture, and this kind of a thing. So, when we were doing the dossiers, we created a dossier on the entire oeuvre of work, the entire work of Abhinav Gupta. Abhinav Gupta was a tantric, very well-known tantric, almost of a high stature, almost second stature which is like Adi Shankar Chatterjee. So, his entire oeuvre, we prepared a dossier for nomination and we sent it and then we went through the processes and we got the answer. Finally, the day we checked on the web and someone told us that, you know, it has been nominated. So, then it was like, and I am crazy in such a way that I do not work like the way one should work in business, corporate understanding of things. I work in a different way. If there is something which is close to my heart, I can be 24 hours. I don't mind not feeling. So, we, our colleagues, our seniors said that don't do like this. It can happen. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But I said no. If we really need to do something about it, let's put our energy here and when that happened, so that gave me, I understood what is the big talk of tears of joy. So, that's what I said at that moment. That was like, okay, at least something happened. So, you were talking about your working style being different. You also work on a lot of projects. You work on the country food value one. You also work on global spirituality one. Creating exhibitions around different cities. Also, the national mission of cultural mapping. How do you manage so many different things? Any five hundred steps that you take? It's very, you know, it's very difficult to do this honestly and sometimes I feel, I won't hide it from you that sometimes I do get frustrated. How can I do this? But it depends on how you want to give your attention to that. Like, so, the approach that makes me do things is, one work, like it sounds very contradictory that at the time and age of we are not discussing, how can we talk about one thing at one time. But actually, if you divide your time and don't do everything at the same time. That, okay, I have to send an email for this particular project and then I have to sit in an interview or a meeting for the other project. I have to plan a visit to some other place. Don't do it like that. Take out a chunk of your time and devote that to one particular work. Okay, so, five works at a time on a day. So, make a list of five works on different other projects. Okay, number one, I have given my energy like this. So, a little bit of that today and a little bit of everything in a given time frame. That helps in multitasking. What we understand is multitasking is actually not the correct way to approach it. It's not good to attend a meeting and also write an email on your mobile phone. Not like that. Multitasking is good when you give your time. A segment of time is a segment of what? Programming. And by the way, talking about multitasking, it also takes me to one moment to worry. When I actually saw this old gentleman, he was holding an umbrella on his head and he probably didn't see too well a torch somewhere. He was playing the guitar and singing from a book. So, I actually put up a post on my Twitter that this is how you do multitasking. Yeah. Okay. As someone who works under the Ministry of Culture, I'm very sure that you must have come across a lot of different things. But did you ever experience a culture of shock? Culture of shock? Not as such, honestly to put it. Okay. Is there any common misconception regarding your work that you like to clarify to us? Well, when one talks about a person working for an art project, it always seems like it's always very fancy, it's always about performance, it's always about music and painting. When I started, like I told you, that one moment that changed my vision about culture, back when, 20 years before. So, when I actually got into it, I realized that it's all put together, like writing an email, accompanying a guest from the airport, what people will eat, where is the car, and all this elements are as much part of this task as much the actual performance. So, there is a misconception that this is all about what happens automatically. No. You are only focusing on the cultural part. No. You have to do it. Everything has to be done. It's almost like cooking. You have to know which ingredients it requires and to go to the market and fetching everything and how many people will eat and what you will cook, so on and so forth. Okay. To wrap up, do you have any recommendations for our students? Any books or movies that we should watch to understand their work better? Any recommendations that you'd like to give? I think you should, basically, whatever local performances happen, interacting with artists and artisans, that should be the first. Like, when you are in a situation when you are going to visit a place, do not only visit the beautiful places. Also, find out monuments which are unattended. Find out rituals that people do not know about. And also, I'd like to mention that, you know, read about some of the pioneers of pioneer singers, pioneer dancers for knowing about Indian styles. Read about someone like Mohan Pokhar who was very passionate about dance and how he did that. And also, I would insist you to see documentaries, older documentaries which were produced by the Government of India and still have been produced on different aspects of culture. And, nowadays, it's very easily available, the webinars and the seminars and you know, the programs organized by the IGNCA as well, the organization I work for. So, if you look at all of that, then you will understand you know, the vastness of culture and the various mild ways of connecting to culture. So, connect with culture. So, that should be my suggestion. Thank you so much. As we draw to a close, I would like to extend our sincere gratitude to Mr. Sumit for sharing his invaluable insights and experience with us. Your dedication to culture and preservation is truly an inspiration. And your contributions are instrumental in shaping our future. So, thank you for that. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. We hope you found today's conversation enlightening and thought-provoking. Stay tuned for more episodes, where we continue to explore different aspects of life with different people. Until next time, stay curious and stay exploring. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for taking the time out to meet us.