EP. 37 AUDIO

Former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien recently celebrated his 90th birthday. Despite their political differences, current Prime Minister Stephen Harper sent him a birthday greeting, suggesting that former opponents can bury the hatchet over time. This display of camaraderie and respect between former leaders is a rarity in today's political climate. The mutual understanding and shared experience of holding such a high office seem to foster a sense of kinship and respect. In contrast, current political leaders, like Trudeau and O'Toole, do not seem to have this same level of respect for one another. Former leaders typically stay out of the political fray and avoid commenting on current events, but Chrétien broke this trend by criticizing Prime Minister Pauliev's characterization of Canada as "broken." Chrétien argued that attacking institutions undermines the unity of the country. As a former politician, he believes it is important to draw the line between partisan disagreements welcome to the bill kelly podcast critical discussions in critical times here's your host bill kelly and welcome this is the bill kelly podcast i'm your host bill kelly good to have you with us today uh... some focus on canadian politics and i understand that the house of commons is not sitting right now uh... but there are some things happening in the global political scene in canada whether they like it or not is being sucked into it i want to talk about that in just a couple of minutes with our next guest she is doctor lori turnbull professor and chair of public and international affairs department at uh... delhousie university always a pleasure a lorry belated happy new year great to have you with us on the show today happy new year to you too thank you for having me before we get into the politics of this and the u-n-a resolutions and things of this nature a rather celebrated former prime minister uh... was being celebrated uh... just a few days ago uh... jean crutchend the twentieth prime minister in this nation's history uh... turned ninety just a few days ago and uh... there were some interesting comments that mister crutchend of course was doing some interviews on on on the political shows over the last couple days i want to get your comments on that but i was also intrigued about uh... uh... and i guess it's almost a traditional somebody of that stature turns it into a monumental birthday like the ninetieth uh... the tributes poured in for president bill clinton so many other world leaders uh... one of the ones that was remarkable though was stephen harper uh... who which the prime minister and apparently sung happy birthday to him on this tape greeting does that prove lori that with the passage of time all hatchets can be buried i mean uh... yeah maybe in their cases uh... i'm trying to like fly through my memory here uh... they were never direct opponents like they didn't really overlap a whole lot like stephen harper would have been in the house at the same time but by the time harper became the leader uh... you know of the emerged conservatives it was against martin and uh... you think that kind of fun and move along that way and i actually uh... i read that you i didn't see him uh... i haven't seen it either but i read it and i thought uh... it makes me happy to see some camaraderie between former prime ministers and even though they clearly disagree a lot of things i mean if you've got if if there's some sense that you know what we we both held a very important office and i have respect for you as somebody who who gave his life to public service and so i want to give you this that kind of tribute that makes me happy that's that civility that we don't see now i don't think well and i'm wondering if we even expected it from those two i mean you you're absolutely right uh... harper never went face to face or head to head i guess i guess crutcheon because paul martin had taken over by then but crutcheon has always been true to his political career been very very partisan very pro-liberal and he had some rather absurd comments to make about stephen harper through the crutcheon never really got out of the political arena but i found it interesting and maybe there's a hint of this i think it was about a month or so ago uh... it was a photo op for something in ottawa and laurine harper the former prime minister's wife was making some very very nice comments about jean crutcheon his favorite former prime minister it was a joke obviously but uh... it kind of reminded me of the relationship between the obamas and the bushes you never thought those two would be together but there seems to be a friendship there now that the political wars are set aside maybe the same thing's happening with the harpers and the crutcheons never know and i mean i think too when you're in it right like when you were this is the life this is the job you're doing this is everyday you know you're going to parliament hill and everything is so urgent and the political rhetoric is so inflammatory you get caught up in it and i think uh... it can have that kind of effect of really making it difficult to have that civility with people who you're fighting with but when you step away from it i think like the oxygen moves differently and you kind of think of things a bit differently and maybe you can see some more common ground with a person you may see what you maybe you have nothing in common ideologically or values wise but you're very little but you like the person and you're able to see them as a person rather than as opponent like i think it speaks volumes actually to how toxic parliament hill can get and even if you take the same people and put them somewhere else uh... you know with different incentives a different like they're the same people but like you put them in a different context and they're able to be very civil to one another and appreciative of one another the common thread seems to be and i think i'm sensing this with the harper crutcheon situation here is that there's a kinship here like you know i had that job i know how tough it is it was my job as a former liberal to take you to task and i did crutcheon certainly was like that uh... but and vice versa of course you know harper didn't have any love for any liberals but you know and so there's criticism of former liberal regimes but they can sit back in their easy chairs right now and say that's the toughest job in canada you did it and i did it we may not have done it the same way but there's uh... i think a mutual respect for the fact that they took it and and and ran with it yeah and i think that's like i i'm sure you've seen this we may have even talked about this before uh... the time that uh... during a debate or a kind of question and answer during the two thousand eight presidential election and this woman starts to really rip into obama and john mccain stops her and says no no he's a good man he's a family man we just have different visions of how we want to run the country and that kind of civility is the yeah like we're opponents we don't see the world the same way we have different visions of where the country should be going and how to get there but i still respect the fact that you are as dedicated as i am to the common good and to the well-being of the country we just have different roadmaps we have different values and i think we we miss some of the like that i don't see that now i don't see anything like that ever happening between trudeau and pauliev i don't think that if you and i are having this conversation in ten fifteen years that we're going to be talking about pauliev singing to trudeau on his birthday hell no i think those two are going to be like this for life absolutely and and on that point by the way we've talked about the statesmanship element that seems to fall upon former leaders be they presidents or prime ministers whatever the case may be and it's not often that they actually comment on current political circumstances uh... as a matter of fact mr harper has been pretty quiet about the political scene since he left office uh... some time ago now uh... crutching seems to have a renewed vigor for that though because some of the comments he made over the last week uh... because he was on in focus because of his birthday uh... were directed towards mr pauliev not himself necessarily but about some of the policies and the theme of the speech that the crutching gave last weekend and of the interview they did with vashi kapelos and and a couple of the others over the weekend seemed to say pauliev was wrong the country is not broken and crutching went into great detail about that uh... and his justification for that was look at uh... i may not be a politician anymore but i i love my country i love canada and he says and he basically i think the overture was i resent the way pierre pauliev was characterizing our country these days yeah yep i have a couple of thoughts about that for one thing i think uh... yeah typically former prime ministers want to stay out of the fray now because like they don't want to necessarily say anything inadvertently that's going to create a problem for their you know like that a former liberal leader doesn't want to create say something that now creates a problem for trudeau whether they really agree with his leadership or not they're not going to want to get into that they kind of want to stay out of it and not make anything you know not create any problems and also like you've been there you've done that you're tired of it you don't want to put yourself back in that context like it's not fun and so you don't want to get into the fray if you don't have to but i think what sometimes will happen is if you know it's one thing if people are having a partisan disagreement or you're arguing about a piece of legislation or you're arguing about you know something that's current and a former prime minister can say you know what i had my time it's not for me to to make my voice sound heavier than everybody else's which it will because you're a former prime minister it's one thing when people start doing that but it's another thing when people start attacking the system it's a very different thing when politicians start to attack the institutions that keep us all part of the same country because when you attack institutions institutions can't defend themselves especially not the public service especially not the governor of the bank of canada like they can't go in and go fifty cuffs with a politician who decides to make them some kind of an object of their criticism to leverage people's frustration with things and so then i can understand why as a former politician you would think you know hang on that's a bit too far actually and don't you know like because if it's just the current politicians fighting about that there's a sense of partisan lens on everything and there's a sense that there's only sides and no truth and so i think it becomes important actually for people whose voice will be trusted and who don't have a particular stake in the outcome right now like a former prime minister to say hey actually no like don't don't go there and it's fascinating to see just how that plays out and as I say he didn't personally attack paulieb but just his characterization of canada and i see your point you know if i'm running for public office i may say i would handle the bank of canada differently or something else instead of saying I'm going to blow everything up and you know which which seems to be the you know the the most extreme position you could possibly take which seems to be popular with some people in north america these days but nonetheless but on the other hand though laurie as we look back at it is cretchens presence presence right now uh... in ottawa and his presence in the forefront now because of the birthday and the celebrations and some of the speeches that he's made for the first time in a number of months uh... is that helping or hurting a prime minister who's uh... the lowest of most permanent any premise has been in the polls for the longest time people are looking for alternatives right now and i have even on social media anyway since i've been snowbound like you have the last couple of days on social media uh... had comments from a few of my friends to simply say boy i wish we had a leader like that these days uh... whether you're liberal or not just the fact that that was a leader that was a guy uh... warren kinsella made that point to of course mister kinsella worked for cretchens for a number of years uh... and i think his uh... his dislike for justin trudeau is pretty obvious to those uh... who follow warren and his words uh... but is it is it that sense of melancholy with some liberals right now like say boy we need a guy like that we need justin to be like that oh yeah and and i mean to be honest i've heard that comment a lot right like that liberals who especially like who whose time active time the party goes back to the cretchen era uh... think oh god right that guy was just and and i mean i can remember my my daughter was five months old and i was on the hill for something and uh... it was lawrence mccauley's twenty five years in paul's and so of course is the party everybody does not have anything everybody's there and at the time trudeau was leader of the party but not prime minister but he was a celebrity right so i think it was packed he comes into the room everybody's like you know that there were the oxygen in the room changes because he's such a charismatic person everybody responds to him he's the leader everybody's making a big fuss and then ten minutes later cretchen comes into the room and that took the house down that was a complete you know you knew who you know the godfather was in the room this guy was larger than life and this was after he hadn't been a leader in like god you know thirteen years or something or something like you know ten years something like that so he's got i mean he has a real uh... way of connecting with people and so i mean i think they're probably always going to be people that kind of harken back to the cretchen era and say yeah that was great and i love being a liberal at that time i don't know if it hurts trudeau a lot for cretchen to be commenting probably not i don't think it helps at all i don't think it helps him at all he was he was a different kind of leader and you're right i mean and the dynamic has changed you know would cretchen be as successful now as he was back in those days but as you say there's a different approach to it but i think there was a even among conservatives that i talked to back in those days a grudging admiration uh... for at least the way that the guy said what he wanted to say i know that you know that the big ridicule was well proof is a proof is a pretty good buddy and so that maybe he'd be kind of garbled the message but the intent of the message is absolutely right i'm not doing it you know sorry president bush you haven't shown me that i need to do it i'm not doing and he was right uh... to be like that he didn't articulate it as well as some others uh... but especially when you see a situation like that uh... and juxtapose that with though what some people characterizes the vacillation by the current prime minister and on some of these technical issues uh... there's a pretty clear difference there isn't there oh yeah i mean i think that was one of the reasons uh... that cretchend was was again so popular as a liberal and still had the respect of people who were kept actively uh... running against him or uh... you know fighting against him in whatever the the political battle was at the time he had an authenticity he was a straight shooter he was a very straightforward person he is a very straightforward person he he said what he meant and he followed it and you know a lot of the time he was right you know as as in the case of the iraq war and some of the times people may have thought no you know you didn't get get that right but at least we knew where you're coming from with it and that kind of uh... fortitude that kind of you know i'm going to these are my convictions and i'm going to stick to them i think these days people don't see that as much in politics there's so much you know following public opinion polls and what do i have to say to get elected and switching and you know oh sorry i didn't mean that let's just start again the kind of chasing the vote in a way that doesn't show the same kind of leadership i think people kind of miss that that authentic kind of politician who says what he's going to say even if people don't agree with him there's one other element to this too folks like myself that have been around politics for a long time are covering it or just a fascination with it uh... there always seemed to be uh... this linkage between a former leader be it a prime minister or a president whatever the case might be and and the current administration who are of the same political party uh... you tend to look as you said of that individual as the godfather and somebody as a as a kind of a consular who you can go to and talk to and get some advice from uh... there seems to be no evidence as a matter of fact I've heard quite a number of people who have exactly said Trudeau and Khrushchev don't talk they don't get along he doesn't seem to look at him as an advisor this is a guy who used to work for his father too he's the finance minister he's had a number of different portfolios under the Trudeau administration and others uh... is that a mistake do you does a current leader have to pay homage to and by the way I'm not just signaling of Trudeau because clearly Pierre Poliev has no time for past conservative prime ministers and even Stephen Harper I guess before him uh... didn't have a whole lot of time for Brian Mulroney is it is that their effort of simply saying we're turning the page yeah that was you then but this is us now I think there's a few elements to that I think uh... when Trudeau came in with a mandate in 2013 to totally rebuild the party he made a conscious decision that he was not going to reach too far back you know kind of look over his shoulder a lot and invite help from people who had been leading the party in different ways for years even in terms of nominations like he he had his roster of star candidates he wanted to put his own face on the party and he was you know to be fair had an uphill battle he had 34 seats in 2013 when he became leader lowest in history for the liberals and so you know you see his point like he wants to kind of make everything over but I think the other thing is that we're seeing parties I think we're seeing a decline in parties now we would have said that if we were having this conversation 25 years ago but now I think not only are we seeing a decline in things like membership in parties and loyalty to parties we're seeing a decline in the party institution itself where you don't see parties performing that brokerage style anymore they're not bringing people together and figuring out interests and finding ways for like-minded but not totally the same people to work together they're not doing that parties are happening around the leader and when the leader changes it's like the leader is the brand of the party the leader's values are the party's values and the leader is the big thing and when the leader changes everything in the party changes so I don't think there's the same sense of passing the torch I think now it's like you ripped that thing out of the studs and you're rebuilding it again around the new leader and that's not going to generate the same kind of historical continuity or loyalty or a sense of getting the value of advice from former leaders because you just think you're you know you're starting the thing from scratch but are you running the risk then of alienating those people that maybe grew up with it or even relied on that process because I'm hearing from older voters as much as from people in the 25 and under category they're simply saying I can't relate to politics anymore Oh 100% yeah yeah like I mean there's lots of people who who may not have ever had a membership in a political party but who sort of felt that they identified with the party's values they're going to vote for them and even if they don't like the leader that much it doesn't mean you're going to pack up and leave on the party altogether whereas now you know we've seen how much the liberals have changed under Justin Trudeau and some of the people who would have identified with say Paul Martin's style and Gretchen's style too you know they decided they were going to swing farther to the right to change the economy and try to get us back to the steady ship and but they found ways to keep the left-leaning liberals like Sheila Copps in the fold as they they tried to fix up the and I'm not saying oh they did everything perfect I'm just saying there was a sense of ideological balance in the party whereas now we see how how far to the left and how far to the progressive side that Justin Trudeau has pulled and it's not the same balancing act in the liberal party and a lot of people are feeling kind of like where is that party that used to have that the two sides and the two feet touching the ground all the time your point about Sheila Copps I think is well taken you know maybe left-leaning liberal at the time and you know they were the big tent at that particular course and and I guess testimony to that and I know Sheila very well I mean we're both fellow Hamiltonians actually went to high school for a little while together uh... and again we're not online with all issues either but uh... she she had a great deal of respect for Jean Chrétien uh... despite the fact that they had political differences well you know he made her the deputy prime minister for that matter too which I thought was an ideal way to as you say to bring the most elements of the party together uh... you don't really see that too much in politics on any political level anymore do you you're either it's to use the old George W. Bush thing you're either with me or you're with the enemy uh... you know if you're if you're either an ad an ad an acolyte or an adversary that's all there is to it which I guess goes to what you and I have talked about in the past about the polarization of politics these days oh yeah and I mean Trudeau like Justin Trudeau when he came in there were a few non-negotiables and I got it right like he came in and said look your liberal MPs are pro-choice period you know like it don't run liberal MPs support um... marriage not you know like inclusive you don't like it get out like he there were things he laid down and said these are this is what you have to believe in or else don't be in my party and I don't have a you know I could certainly the way he went about that because on some level you you look at parties that are really divided and the leader can't keep it together without doing some sort of you know somersault circus act to try to make sure everybody's happy all the time and you end up not really standing for anything but on the other side I think people expect especially you know if you if you see the value in that brokerage model you expect that there's going to be difference of opinion in a party of course there is we're a big country and we've got all kinds of even though the population isn't huge we've got lots of different uh... you know different positions different interests different priorities that that the magic of it all is to figure out how we can all identify and learn that you don't it's not a question if you get what you want or you don't but now it's like leaders have no problem saying this is the circumstance and you know there's not going to be some special project to make you happy and this is what I want as it okay your point's well taken and that was then this is now a concept here though Laurie uh... and anybody who was on the fence about Justin Trudeau as a leader saw those comments and said well he's got the courage of his convictions I may not agree with them but that's leadership and I like that that's what I want my leader to be like but juxtapose that with what's happened to the party recently uh... there is dissent within the party because there seems to be vacillation within the party and I'll use the Gaza situation as a classic example uh... you know that the prime minister has been less than clear shall we say and I'm being kind there about Canada's position on this issue uh... then of course came the South African resolution of the United Nations to condemn Israel for their actions in this and again vacillation uh... and and and minister Jolie's comments over the weekend that we support the international court of justice but uh... there was no clear statement about the motion itself and now in a time here we are in twenty twenty four looking for that same sort of leadership and that same sort of of decisive commitment from the prime minister it doesn't seem to be there and I'm hearing more from liberals than I am from the opposition members about their disappointment in that yeah I mean clearly I think it would be really difficult for a political party to be totally unified in in a sense of what what's happening what should happen where they are on this and I think yeah like we've heard a lot from liberal backbenchers probably most uh... you know we've heard a lot from Marco Mendicino from Anthony Housefather about them not being happy with Canada's decision uh... with respect to how we voted in the UN calling for a ceasefire uh... we can see over the weekend the protest like the protesting at Melanie Jolie's house like this is really difficult for the government to to manage where they're at on this and what their position is and how to make people feel that they're doing the right thing and they're giving a clear you know I don't think there's clarity at all I don't get the sense of that at all I mean and I also think this is going to get uh... less clear rather than more clear when the house comes back because I strongly doubt that Trudeau is going to offer any more real clarity with respect to where he's at well and I know some people are going to say well that opens the door for the opposition to come in I don't know that they've got a clear position on that either uh... you know as you say it's it's a complex issue but at the same time you know you're looking for leadership here and by the way just as a quick comment since you brought it up uh... I don't care what your political stripe is if you go to the house of a member of parliament or any elected official and basically terrorize and try to threaten them you're an idiot and okay you're a jerk you're not doing anything at all uh... and we've seen this happen uh... former mayor hamilton was victimized by that by some idiots at a local level uh... former OPP commissioner julian fantino had people come to his house because of the way the OPP were acting uh... towards an indigenous confrontation in caledonia yeah there are rules uh... and they're not very many rules but one of them is you don't include family and you certainly don't go to somebody's house I mean you want to complain on parliament hill at the local government office knock yourself out even at the constituency office go ahead and do that if that's what you want to do but back off and leave the family alone and stay the hell away from their homes uh... you know that's bordering on terrorist and insightful activity as opposed to demonstration but those lines seem to be blurred these days and I think that's what's confusing and maybe even scaring enough a lot of people it is scary absolutely when people start to feel entitled to scare you and to come to your private property and to you know try to essentially intimidate and feel that they have they're entitled to do that right that is the whole point is to make a person feel unsafe and it's scary to think that people think that again that they're entitled to make themselves heard in that way in a way that's threatening to someone so yeah I mean I totally ruse everything you said I hope we don't see more of that but unfortunately I think we will because I think that this is um... not just in this issue but in in other issues too we've seen a lot of this sense of crossing a line and getting in someone's personal space in politics and feeling like people feeling like they have the right to do that we had a case in Nova Scotia actually not long ago where somebody showed up at a constituency office and attacked a constituency worker who was there on her own it's like come on like what is wrong with people insane uh... quick comment about uh... we've talked about this on a previous podcast what's going to happen in twenty twenty four and it gives a major consensus here that there's not going to be an election despite what some people say the NDP aren't going to withdraw support uh... there's not going to happen but there was another poll that was released just a couple of days ago that showed once again a further widening of the gap between uh... the conservatives and the liberals on the federal level anyway I don't know if you saw Michael Harris' column it was in the Hill Times just yesterday I think it was basically talking about that and essentially saying uh... I've interviewed Michael a number of different times uh... I'm not even sure what his political stripe is these days but he made a couple of valid points uh... he said look it he says let's put this thing in perspective he says first of all do the conservatives deserve to be ahead of the liberals in the polls absolutely uh... you know simply because of the behavior of this government and some of the things that they've really dropped the ball on does it need should it really be that big a lead and he suggests no uh... and the point he is trying to make here is he says he says we could spend the next hour and a half talking about the shortcomings of not only the liberal government but of Justin Trudeau and his personal foibles and everything else but as he points out where's the scrutiny about Peter Poliev uh... is he the alternative you know he's talking about you know Trudeau's an elitist uh... Poliev's a millionaire Poliev's been living off the public purse since he was sixteen I think the hardest work he's ever done was handing out brochures during election time uh... that's about it so they don't want to seem to put him under the microscope and we've heard that with politicians before is is at some point is there a reckoning Laurie where people say alright let's let's see what this guy's all about too because we haven't really been looking at that we've just been focusing on how much we don't like the other guy that's it I mean there's always a certain sense that the incumbent is going to get greater scrutiny than the possibility coming in because the incumbent is the incumbent and they're the ones who are you know holding the bag for things they're the ones who are sitting in that chair and so there's a kind of I think probably to a point an understandable tendency to be more focused on the person in power than the person who might be someday that said um... I think like for me uh... you know that liberals don't need any political advice from me but I don't know why they have let him go this long defining himself and defining himself in multiple and I would suggest contradictory ways and they don't get into this to try to push back at him on any of this stuff but it's possible that they're waiting until it's closer to an election uh... where people are more tuned in people are more really making up their minds maybe the economy will be better by then and then the liberals start laying into him and try to tell us who he is you know from their perspective and try to you know again put more scrutiny on him shine a brighter light on him but I think because again because of the way that parties are growing around people and leaders rather than values I think that's a risky strategy because I think that by the time it comes to an election his support is going to be pretty much like it's easier for it's the way people are shoring up support now if you've already decided you really like this leader a couple of attack ads from the liberals aren't going to change anything uh... and I hesitate to bring this up because when you look at the reputation of the prime minister here and I was going to bring up about the media's responsibility here the reputation of the media is in tatters too maybe even more so than the prime minister uh... not just in this country but it seems all of the mainstream media but do they have a role to play in this and I got a quick story I got to relate to you and get your read on this uh... Mike Duffy senator and of course former journalist Mike covered the hill for many many years of course uh... and he talked to me uh... a number of different times we've had him on the show likable guy I'm sure you know for people who know him but a partisan to a certain extent and and uh... I think you could argue that he let that partisanship influence a number of the things that he did while he was still a journalist but he did tell me that in 2005 uh... when the liberals were struggling under Paul Martin and eventually he they did force him to call it an election uh... that happened in actually the first month of 2006 coming up in the anniversary of that uh... that he basically he said to Paul Martin this time we're going to get you uh... that was the phrase and this was enough to tell me this he says you and he said to Martin he says you BS'd us a number of times you promised this and promised that and didn't do it this year you're under the microscope nothing's going to get by us now I'm not suggesting that swung the election but sometimes you know the media can give somebody the benefit of the doubt and say okay we'll see how this rolls out uh... are they going to get to that point I think I already had with Justin Trudeau I don't think Trudeau gets any favoritism from the media notwithstanding what Mr. Polyev might say but can they help shape public opinion by the way that they present issues oh sure they can and I think that's one of the reasons why Pierre Polyev has been very cautious in his relationship and in some ways evasive in his relationship with the mainstream media is because he knows that the media could portray things in a certain way I don't think he necessarily likes the treatment that he's gotten from the media since he started his career and so he doesn't want to put his image development in the media's hands he wants to do that himself and I can understand why I think that's another point too is that as politicians have access to social media that like Pierre Polyev has done things very differently no matter what happens in the next election five ten years from now we are going to be talking about his approach to these long videos where he talks directly at people and he's like he's just doesn't want that filter of the mainstream media he wants to talk directly to people and by all accounts it's working for him but yeah I mean we'll see what happens you know when the election comes when there's more of a kind of incentive I think to engage the media directly but even someone like Doug Ford managed to make himself scarce for most of the campaign in 2022 Polyev will not be doing that, Polyev will be front and center but the way politicians are engaging the media I think is changing a lot It's going to be a fascinating year politically as they deal with this and again no elections on the horizon probably nothing going to happen here but that doesn't mean there isn't going to be a shifting in ideologies and a shifting in the perception of those too I look forward to our future conversations on this as always. Laurie thank you so much for this have a great week and we'll talk again soon I hope You too, take care Take care, Dr. Laurie Turnbull from Dalhousie University and that's it for this edition of the Bill Kelly Podcast, that's the way we see it until next time this podcast was brought to you by Rebecca Wisens and her team at Wisens Law now if you or a loved one have been seriously injured or if you want to make sure that your family is taken care of for the future with the will and powers of attorney call Rebecca Wisens 905-522-1102 for a free consultation