Episode 7: Rising Above | How Early Career Failures Became His Compass To Success

Christophe Boudin, Chief Revenue Officer of DigiCert, shares his journey to becoming a leader and the lessons he's learned along the way. He emphasizes the importance of cultural awareness and adapting leadership styles when working with different cultures. He also discusses the risks and opportunities of leadership in uncertain environments, encouraging leaders to take calculated risks and seize opportunities. Christophe believes that success as a leader is measured by the impact you have on others, helping them achieve things they didn't think possible. He emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and listening as key strategies for personal and professional growth as a leader. Welcome to Coachnomics Presents Podcast, a part of the ECS Network. I'm your host, Laura Perez-Ehrhardt. I'm a management consultant and a certified executive coach, and I've been coaching executives for over a couple of decades. Today, my special guest is Christophe Boudin. He's a Chief Revenue Officer of DigiCert, a sizable leading security software company headquartered in Lahey, Utah. Christophe has served and worked in countries such as France, Singapore, and Australia, and is currently in the San Francisco Bay Area. He's worked in the software industry for 30 plus years with Fortune 500 companies such as IBM and Oracle, including midsize organizations like DMC, BEA Systems, Anaplan, and DigiCert. So Christophe, you've developed a brilliant career for yourself over the years, and you've been a part of some amazing teams, including leading high-performing teams who have successfully executed customer-centric revenue strategies. And I know from professional experience that it takes skill and hard work. So as an experienced leader, please share some of your professional growth and journey with our listeners as you carved out your career and developed your leadership skills. It's been an interesting journey. As you said earlier, you know, I've been in many countries leading teams of various cultures, different companies, and it's been really, really a very interesting journey, which is not finished. It's not that, you know, I've been in the business for 35 years. I'm still learning. I'm still really trying to understand what leadership is all about and how I can improve myself, you know, every day and becoming a better leader. Not a better manager, but a better leader. Absolutely. Leadership is never a one-and-done. It's a continuous evolution. Yep. But I'm really curious, Christophe, about what motivated you to become a leader or even take on a leadership role? You know, what drove you? Was it personal aspiration? Was it a sense of responsibility or a desire to make a difference? Or maybe all of the above? Yeah, you got it. It's all of the above. It's all of the above, but more of the last two. So the sense of responsibility and the desire to make a difference. You know, I didn't wake up in the morning and then it created the personal aspiration to become a leader. I didn't wake up in the morning and say, hey, I want to be a leader. And what's interesting is that I can really trace back to when I first, you know, thought about, wow, this is really what I like. And interestingly enough, it was in the army. I'm old enough that in my own country, in France, we had to do, you know, a mandatory service in the army. It was in 1987. I still remember vividly. It was a life-changing experience. I joined the army as a private, but very, very quickly they put me through some fast path to become a surgeon. So I had to, and I was in the tank, I was in the cavalry leading the tank. And I had to basically at the age of 22, quote unquote, direct, manage, lead, call it what you like, three other people of my age in that tank. And I realized that I liked it. I realized that, you know, getting them to do things, even things that, you know, naturally they didn't want to do or things that were potentially dangerous. We'd never got engaged in combat, but we did a few interesting things. And I really, it's not the job in the tank that was, that really, really, you know, attracted me. It's the job of leading that team. And I remember very vividly that I said, well, that's what I want to do as a career, leading teams, leading people, getting them to do things that, you know, they don't think possible or that they don't want to do initially. It traces back not to my professional life, but to my army life in between, you know, years of college. So it was interesting that that's where it became an aspiration. I want to do that. I didn't know how, I didn't know when, I didn't know where, but I knew that that was what I wanted to do. And the rest is history, I guess. That is fascinating. So thank you, Christophe, for your service. And now that we just came out of the Memorial holiday, I think this is a timely conversation. 22 years old, taking on the lead of, you know, directing people, inspiring them, influencing them, right? That's amazing. But even with that experience, every leadership journey comes with its fair share of challenges, which I'm sure at 22 years old, you had several challenges and learning opportunities. I want to have you share a turning point in your career where you completely failed. What was the experience like for you? And what lessons did you learn from that experience? Great question. Well, the good news, I think it's good news, is that there is many to do, to choose from. And I think it's good news because, you know, I think that you learn in your mistakes and your failure. Success is good. You feel good. You feel the energy. But you actually learn from failure and mistakes. If I think about it, really two come to mind. The first one, so now we are in 2000. So I'm roughly 35 years old. This is my first experience as a second line manager, so managing manager. And I'm in Singapore. And that's where the issue came in. So I'm in Singapore, and we're having a quarterly business review, famous QBR for everybody who's in the business. And I'm challenging one of my direct reports, so a manager, in a way that I thought was totally fine. We're having a conversation about the business, and I was challenging some of his points and things that he was saying, but to me, totally fine. Fast forward, we're in the morning after, and that person comes to my office, and really somebody that I really appreciated, and that I wanted part of the team, and that I thought was essential to my success moving forward. And he came in my office, and he goes, Christophe, I resigned. And I went, wow, okay, well, okay, tell me more, and I'm trying to understand why. And actually, the reason why is that he said, hey, it's because of yesterday. Well, you can't really just resign because we had a conversation, which I think was totally fine. He said, no, because I lost face, and I can't accept that in front of my peers. And the point I missed, and it sticks with me, because it was a big failure on multiple levels, is that I'm in Singapore, this person is of Chinese culture. I'm obviously not from the same culture, very Western culture. I didn't adapt my style of leadership to the person culture. And when I played back the conversation later, knowing better some aspects of the different culture that you find in Singapore, yes, I made total mistakes in how I was asking questions, and to the point where it wasn't acceptable for that person to be in that environment, which was really bad. We talked about it years after when we bumped into each other. I don't know how many times I apologized to the person, but it was like a real-life example. If you're applying what you think is right in certain situations, because I can have the exact same conversation over here in the US, and nothing is going to happen, but because I wasn't able to do two things. First, think about what I need to change, dealing with different cultures, different countries, and also not seeing some of the alarms going off as I was doing it, and I was asking questions, then causing me to lose one of my most talented managers, which impacted his team in return, and all that. It stuck with me while I was in Singapore for 24 years, and then learning that you have to listen, and you have to make sure that you adapt your style based on the circumstances and the people that you're dealing with. That was a very traumatic experience for me. The other one is, which was also traumatic, that was the first and only of the last time where I was shown the door. It was 10, 15 years ago, and although it was described as a mutual agreement, I was not the one starting the conversation, so it ended up mutual, but always somebody is always bringing the topic to the first on the table. As I go through that, which was not easy, after many years of success, one of my directs, she was calling me to say a lot of good things, but she told me, hey, you realize that that happened to you because you stopped being yourself, and if that person listens to that podcast, she will remember who she is. It hit me in the face that, because of our circumstances, influenced by other people, I stopped being myself, and I became somebody else that I'm not, which created my own demise, leading even to the point that, you know, I was shown the door and let go, good terms and with good things, but still. That stuck with me, too, were never stop being yourself, right? When you're in a leadership position, especially as you grow up, you're under a lot of influences of a lot of people, and there's one thing that you should never abandon is who you are, being yourself, because then you start doing things that is not you, and obviously you fail when you're trying to be something, someone different. So, very different experience where I learned a lot about myself, about what works, about what doesn't, and again, there's another list of other things, but those two, when I think about it, were really, you know, helped me becoming a better leader, right? That's the most important thing, is that how these things help you becoming a better leader. Two very important lessons. First one, what I'm hearing you say is, if we're in other countries, understanding the culture, so that's cultural awareness, right? Every culture has their way of connect, how they communicate, and how they work together, how they relate. Making sure that we understand where we're at, people or culture that we're surrounded by. It's for us to adapt to it, not the other way around, and understand what they are. And the second one, that is also another pivotal point in your life, where, to your point, never lose your identity. That's right. There's a lot of influences out there that could take control without us, and it can sneak up on us, without really even noticing it. I do agree with you, is keeping the sense of identity, who you are, and never losing that as a leader, because that's one of the things that never changes in somebody's character. Talk about your current role as Chief Revenue Officer, and as a senior leader, share some of your thoughts on the risks you face to succeed in the current uncertain environment. That's very timely, given the overall environment that we have at the moment. So, I'm in a sales leadership role, right? And sales leadership comes at a high risk, always, and high rewards, sometimes, right? And unfortunately, the current environment make the former, i.e. the high risk, more likely, right? There is more uncertainty, you don't know how the economy is going to evolve, you don't know if, you know, the country is going to run, very timely, too. And the natural reaction could be to actually get totally frozen, by saying, oh my gosh, you know, it's so uncertain, it's so, you know, difficult, I don't know what the future is going to be, let's play safe. And I've seen people making that mistake, I've made that mistake myself in the past, where actually, in those moments, this is where you're going to have opportunities that will not present themselves, if you were in a very certain flamboyant aggro period. Because as people are getting kind of frozen, they're going to let go, not knowingly, most of the time, opportunities that you can grab. It could be talent, it could be people, right? I think that, you know, six to nine months ago, finding the right person was almost impossible. Well, I wouldn't say it's good news, but with what's happening right now, which is not the end of the world, there are talents available that were not available. Six months ago, and making the decision to say, oh, no, I'm not going to hire, I'm not going to bet this on, you know, getting this person or that person through the door, because I'm not sure, well, that's a mistake. It's an opportunity that will not present itself again, or taking market share to a competitor that is, you know, hurts more than you are. So there's all these opportunities, which for the people who have the guts and the courage to go after them, and to lead their team, as a result, they present themselves, and you have to take them, even if it's a bit scary when you make those decisions, taking risks in down periods, usually with a higher chance of success than trying to follow the shiny object that exists in growth period. But it takes courage. And I think that actually leadership and being a real leader is taking a lot of courage. So how is it when, you know, in your gut, the decision that you're making is the right decision, and others are reluctant to take that risk with you? How do you negotiate that? How do you influence that? First thing is, the first person you need to influence is yourself. It's like, do you really believe that that's the great opportunity that you have to take, and that you're going to bring your team? If you're at the very senior position in the company, you may actually take the company with you, right? And it's not only the CEO, it's like there's a few positions like that, like mine, where if you take some bets, it has actually an influence on the entire company outside of your organization. So the first person that you have to influence and convince is yourself, right? Because in my experience, if you're not convinced, then the cracks are going to show, right? And you have to convince yourself with less than 100% certitude that you're making the right decision, right? You're probably not only, you're probably sure 75, 80, making a move below that is very, very risky. But you know that you don't know 15 or 20. So how do you convince yourself that then will help you influence and convince other people that this is the risk that you need to take? So first, start with yourself. And then second, what I like to do is that with people that actually don't think the way I think, because it's always easier to get a yes from a mini you, it's less easy to get a yes or a view from somebody who doesn't think exactly like you think, is I run like, hey, you know, I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking about that, and getting input, which actually may slightly change the implementation of the solution or whatever you're thinking. So it's kind of dry running a bit what you have in mind, because you never have ever the entire solution in your mind on your own. You have to get some input. And from the outside, especially from people who don't think like yourself necessarily. And once you have that, then okay, now you're ready for prime time, right? Then you can go in front of your boss, whoever your boss is, and then convince them that it's the right thing to do. But because you convince yourself, and you've got enough input that you know what over parties will object, will think differently, because you kind of dry run with personas that you know will be in front of you when you need to get the yes. That's where being skillful at influencing really comes into play. Yep. Talk about some successes that you had along your career path, and how your leadership has influenced others, such as your current team, including positive impacts you've made. It's interesting, because I can talk about a phenomenal IPO that I've been part of. Of course, it was a team sport, but really, really successful IPO. I can talk about very successful buyout to private equity firm. So all big things with big numbers and a lot of people and all that. At the end of the day, what really qualifies as success is when I hear people in my team, direct or somewhere in my team saying, hey, you made me do something that I didn't think I could do. And it could be little things, it can be super huge things. But where I feel that sense of, you know, having made a difference, it's not in these big things. They're good, they're nice. But it's when people look at you in the eye and say, wow, that was painful, but I never thought I could do that. Or, wow, we, you know, we didn't really believe that we could do this, and we've done that team. We didn't think it was possible. And that's where I'm really feeling, okay, now, I have made a difference, because somebody did something that they thought was not achievable. And then to me, regardless of how big or small the thing is, that is the definition of being a good leader, getting people to do things that they don't think possible. Absolutely, 100% agree. Seeing what's possible in others, even when they don't believe it in themselves, right? We know that seeing through our lens, we see the opportunities, we see people, you know, an individual in a different light. When we share what we believe in them, or we see in them the opportunities and possibilities, they're usually surprised at how someone can really see beyond who they are and see what's really possible within them. Part of being a good leader is to challenge your team members, get them out of their comfort zone. Leadership is a journey, and it's a continuous evolution. It's a process. Please provide some insights in how you continue to develop yourself as a leader. And if you could share some strategies or practices that you've adopted over the years to enhance your leadership skills, and what are they? It is a continuous process. It is a continuous journey. It never stops. Whatever you learn through books, conversation, experience, doesn't really matter. But I think that first, don't believe you know it all, right? Don't believe that, okay, well, I've got this figured out. No, there's always something that you don't know. There's something new. Everything is changing around you. I still read books about leadership and management, because even if 75% of the pages, I'm going to go, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Well, 20 years ago, it was only 15% of the pages. There's always that page, that sentence, that paragraph that's going to hit you in the face and say, oh, I forgot about that. Or, oh, wow, this is an interesting insight, right? Keep learning through books, through getting acquainted with people who are doing things that you have no idea. It's like, I love getting to know people who are living a life or doing something that I have no idea what it is, because by just sharing their experience, I'm going to learn something. I had a conversation with somebody who was hoping from mountain to mountain, which is not something I'm doing. I'm a bit of skiing, but not really going on top of all these mountains. And when we discussed about why I was doing that, I learned something about how you lead yourself to pain, to extreme, you know, near-death situation and why it was important for him and how it can help me becoming a leader. So, getting with people that are doing things that you cannot comprehend, I think, is important. That being said, there's really two things, two other things. I remember that moment, I can't remember when it was, probably 20, 25 years ago, it wasn't that long. One of my managers was with me on a sales call and we had a good call. And after the meeting, the feedback was, hey, Christophe, it was a good call, but I need to tell you something. I said, okay, yeah, what? And he said, you have two ears and a mouth for a reason. I'm like, wow, what do you mean? We have two ears and a mouth for a reason. You should be more listening, less talking. And that was the back of a cab and that hit me like a rock. Because like, yeah, of course, because if you want to better understand, if you want to be a better leader, if you want to be a better person altogether, start by listening, not by talking. Right? And then it's kind of, you know, that funny sentence, you've got two ears and a mouth for a reason, but then it sticks with you and you go, yeah, yeah. And I don't know how many times I've used that sentence in coaching, with my people, with informal conversations. But it's so true and it's so helpful if you want to become, you know, a better leader. And the other one is, I think we touched upon that many times, so it's really kind of, you know, the common theme here. You learn from your mistakes and failure. You don't learn from your successes. Mistakes and failure are great. The only thing that is not great is repeating them again. Right? If you have that in mind, when they come, and they can be small, they can be big, you know that they're richer than successes in order for you to learn. So you get to accept them with that, and they're gifts. They come here for you to learn and to grow. So more listening, less talking, accepting failure for what they are, gold in lessons, is really the two things, and never stop learning, never stop being courageous, never stop to actually challenge yourself on, you know, not believing that you know it all and that you have all the answers. The more you go, the less you know the answers, because they're becoming more and more complex and requires a lot of teamwork. Nicely said. 100% agreed. So, you know, I like what you said earlier about, you know, you continue to, you know, you continue to read, whether they're articles or books, but you continue to, you know, I'm sure you have books that you still reference, you know, whether it's a page or a chapter, but it's a nice reminder of what you're still learning or what you need to know. And additionally, I agree with you when you say, you know, get out and meet people who do different things, because there are some major lessons in learning from other people. There are so many, you know, it doesn't even need to be over-the-top extraordinary, but in your case, like you said, you know, you met someone that has been skiing these high mountains, and the dangers and the risks that this individual takes, and, you know, so you have a conversation with this individual as to why. There's a lot of juice in those conversations that can really teach us some major lessons in leadership. Absolutely. And learn to listen more and go in with a curious mind, right? So, wouldn't that be, as we listen, Christophe, wouldn't it also be worthwhile to engage in those curious questions? Yeah, and very open-ended question, right? Not trying to influence the response and really trying to understand by just being curious, as you said, right? And learn from them and capture the moment, be in the moment. With all the technology that we have, it's easy to multitask and do a lot of things at the same time, and you're losing that nugget that exists in those answers to your question. So, staying in the moment, staying in when those leadership moments happen is super important. But what advice would you give listeners who are listening now, who have recently stepped into a leadership role, so they're still trying to, you know, grow those leadership legs, or even some of those that are more seasoned, but they're still developing their leadership expertise? What advice would you give these people? Well, I'm going to go back to what I said. Well, actually, before I go there, something that happened yesterday. So, I'm sitting here in 104 office, actually in headquarters in Utah, and I get out at 5pm after conference call of the day. And I have two managers in my organization talking to each other. And it's the end of the day, so it's casual. So, I get out there and, you know, get into the conversation. And actually, it was a new manager, so somebody for whom it's the first time manager, and another one who's been manager for a long time. And actually, the junior, in terms of in management position, person was asking the other one, hey, how do you keep people motivated and engaged? And they were having a conversation on, you know, what things you can do to keep people engaged and motivated. And the conversation continues. And everybody was talking about it, about that. We're free. And then the fourth one joined us very openly. And there's probably like three levels of hierarchy. I don't like that word, but three levels of management. I don't like that word either. But anyways, three levels between, three or four levels between myself and that person. And I was really appreciated that there was no fear or hands for that person to show vulnerability because he was asking a very, very good management and leadership question. To go back to your question, it's about listening again, asking questions, being curious, listening to what the answer is, or what the possible answers are when you start a new leadership role, or it's your first leadership role. And also, as I said before, accept yourself. And it's hard, especially when you're in a new management position, new leadership position where I'm, I'm here, and I need to be perfect. No, you don't. And failure is totally acceptable. Be vulnerable. Be vulnerable will be another advice. People like vulnerability, that shows you're human, that you're not a machine, that you don't know it all, and that people can help the entire team. It's all of that. Listen, accept you'll fail. Be vulnerable. All things that I've seen so many first-time managers thinking, okay, I need to tell them what to do. It's the inverse of listening. I can't fail because otherwise that means that I'm not, you know, in the right position. No, you can. And really making sure that, you know, you absorb that and that you're so vulnerable. Tell people it's the first time that you're a manager. They understand. They're going to, they're going to help you if you help them. It's a, it's a win-win game. So all of this that, you know, I've seen people new in the management and leadership position actually don't do and making them unsuccessful by being perceived rightly or wrongly, a perception is reality as arrogant and know-it-all people. Like you said, a lot of times, especially newer leadership, they feel that they're in a position where the pressure's on and they feel that they need to have all the answers. That's right. How do you handle that, Christophe, when you don't have all the answers? Who do you lean into? Well, first to the person that is asking the question, I think one of the most powerful answers is what do you think, right? So, and that time I know the answer and I will ask the question. The time I don't know the answer and I ask the question. So somebody's coming up. Of course, if you do it all the time, that sounds a bit, okay, well, I don't need you as my leader because you're always saying the same thing, but very often people have more of the answer than they think. So they come with a problem. I always say, hey, come with a problem. Don't come only with a problem. Come also with various solutions and we can, you know, help you taking the one that is the best. But very often they come with a problem. And if you answer, again, not all the time, but when it's really you feel that first you don't have the answer or two, that you want the person to think through it because the problem statement maybe is not, you know, clear enough. And that, the power of that question, what do you think, where you see the person like stopping, thinking about it, the next sentences that are going out, they're part of the solution. And there is nothing more powerful than helping for the person who is on the receiving end. There is nothing more powerful to find a solution yourself than your manager or your leader telling you. It's self-fulfilling. It's like, oh, I had a problem. I went to Christophe, we had a conversation. I don't know why that guy asked me, what do you think as a first, but then we had a conversation back and forth. We were peer to peer. And at the end, I had the solution. That's the most powerful leadership thing because then it becomes the person's success. No, it's you telling, which is managing. That's the difference between managing and leading. Telling somebody is a management act. Helping somebody finding the solution by having the things that he or she didn't see and get to the solution themselves, even if it's slightly longer, is tenfold better. Absolutely. It's just leading them, asking those provocative questions with open-ended statements, as you said earlier, getting them to think through what they're trying to achieve. And for you as a leader to ask those provocative and open-ended questions, it just gets them to open their mind, coaching them. They have the answer in them. They just don't realize it. Oh, in, I don't know, is it 75, 90? I don't know, but it's a high percentage of the cases. The answer is here. It's just that I'm just going to help you finding it versus telling you what the answer is. It's usually about 98% of the time they have the answers. They just don't know because they haven't thought through it. When they go to their leader, you know, and their leader challenges them, that is the pivotal point for the individual who's growing in their management position. Oh, I didn't think about that as you're leaning into this new manager and saying, well, let's think about this. What is it that you're trying to achieve? If you decide to go this route, what's the consequence and what's the outcome that you're looking for at that point? So to get them to think through this, the design is they're going to have, they're going to have their own answers at the end. That's a brilliant strategy. So thank you for sharing that. So my last question for you is if you wrote a letter to your younger self, what kind of advice would you give your younger self today? Well, I asked myself that question not long ago because, you know, it's a, it's an interesting question, part of an exercise that I was going through and on my own. And it's actually only one sentence. It's be patient. It will happen when you are ready, not when you think you are ready. You are ready. And that's probably the thing that I took me, it took me a while to understand, especially when it was a younger me, is that I wasn't patient and, and I thought I was ready. Well, actually I wasn't. And, and, and things happen when you are ready, not when you think you are ready because you don't know what you don't know. So it's really what I would have loved to write to myself because of so many things that I would have done differently if I knew that I needed to be patient and that things happen when you are ready, not when you think you are ready. So I gave it a lot of thought and it's very clear to me that that's what I would have, what I would love to tell my younger self, because it would have helped me tremendously and not doing stupid things that I did when I started and even in mid-career. Well, the stupid things that you did or the choices that you made, were those lessons learned for you? Yes, there were lessons learned, but there, I would have had less painful experience if I would have remembered, oh, older me told me to be patient because he knows what, what the end game is, right? And it's me, it's not something, somebody different that, and if I think I'm ready, maybe, maybe I'm not ready. It would have forced me thinking through things and then making, making some of the experiences less painful, shorter, better, quicker. I can go on and on, right? So, but yeah, I would have probably made similar mistakes, but less painful by reminding, although I would probably say, well, old me is an idiot. I don't believe what he says. Either way, I think that's brilliant advice. And I think that our listeners, again, whether they're in a new leadership position or they're still evolving in their area of leadership, this is great advice nonetheless. So this is brilliant. Christophe, thank you so much for your time. It was really good. Thank you, Laura, and talk to you soon. That's it for this episode of Coachonomics Presents. If you're interested in being a guest or you're a Subject Matter Expert, please go to my website, www.epiphanyconsultingsolutions.com and submit your requests on the Let's Chat link. You can also find me on my LinkedIn page under Laura Perez Earhart or my website, Epiphany Consulting Solutions. We hope the content and conversation will give you sparks of inspiration. If you love and learn from the show, pay it forward and share my podcast with your colleagues and friends. I'm Laura Perez Earhart. Until next time, stay safe and live well.