E 19 Dyslexia: The Crossroads of Innovation and Brainpower in the Workforce

Paul Daniels, a dyslexic individual, shares his personal experience with dyslexia. He initially believed he was stupid and slow, but later achieved success in his career. At age 40, he was diagnosed with dyslexia, which fascinated him as he discovered it was a learning difference with unique cognitive strengths. Dyslexics have super skills, such as heightened creativity and problem-solving. Paul developed the concept of peripheral thinking to translate these skills for neurotypical individuals. Dyslexics have a broader peripheral vision and can connect dots and solve problems creatively. Dyslexia is not limited to artists and musicians; creativity is present in every person. Paul's dyslexia allows him to see more details and make connections in various situations. He can reference past experiences and apply them to current challenges. Dyslexics can switch between analytical and non-linear thinking, seeing both the details and the big picture. Traditional education systems should be ada Welcome to CoachNomics Presents Podcast, a part of the ECS Network. This is the Masters of Leadership Teachable Moments Series. I'm your host, Laura Perez Earhart. I'm the CEO of Epiphany Consulting Solutions, a management consultant and executive coach. My guest is Paul Daniels. He's an international speaker, best-selling author, and the CEO of Peripheral Thinkers. Paul, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on the podcast today. I'm excited and fascinated about your personal story about dyslexia. Laura, thank you so much for inviting me. Long-time listener, first-time guest, so I'm excited. Thank you. Absolutely. So, Paul, talk a bit about your experience with dyslexia. I think that this is a really important topic for many people out there that have dyslexia. My journey began believing that I was stupid, slow, lazy, a daydreamer, an outsider throughout my education into university and postgraduate stuff. It was just kind of a given in my mind. And we fast-forward 30-some years, and in my late 30s, I had achieved quite a few things. I'd started and sold my first company. I'd climbed the ladder of two large international, one global company. The results were terrific, but I was still considered that outsider. We don't get you, Paul. At age 40, I was diagnosed with dyslexia. I found out I was dyslexic the same time that our daughter was diagnosed. And as they were reading some of the results, I just kept saying, gosh, I get that. I understand that. They said, well, would you like to be tested? Sure. I mean, I'm paying for it. Why not? And that's when the light bulb sort of went on for me. It took some time to absorb that, and it fascinated me that there was a language around the way dyslexics think. And as I continued to dig in and find research and do my own research, I found that it is far from a disability. It's a learning difference. It is brought with a whole set of super skills that only a small percentage of the population has. And that's really the mission that I've been on sort of ever since. You know, I fast-forward now and help clients in 31 industries in 27 countries and achieve things that they never thought they could before. So the journey has been long, it's been and sometimes very frustrating, but at other times it is absolutely the best. I wouldn't change any of it, and I certainly wouldn't change the next 20 years what's in store now. I absolutely won't, because I'm so excited about what dyslexia brings to the world. Yeah, absolutely. And there's a growing recognition of the positive attributes associated with dyslexia within the context of individual success and innovation. It's a neurodevelopmental condition affecting reading and language processing, and often coexists with unique cognitive strengths, including heightened creativity and problem solving. Yeah. So there are many successful individuals with dyslexia, Paul, such as Albert Einstein, Cher, Picasso, Whoopi Goldberg, right? I think we all know these characters. And they've all attributed their creativity and problem-solving skills to their condition. Right. Paul, talk about the peripheral thinking and how it's influenced your thinking skills to solve problems or for creativity. And how this works. Right. So I'd like to add a few names to the list that people may not know. Henry Ford, JFK, Richard Branson, Aaron Brockovich, Barbara Corcoran, the Shark Tank, Agatha Christie. Really goes on. Muhammad Ali, Kobe Bryant. Creative problem-solving is a core attribute. There are, depending on this research that you looked at, between 15 and 20 super skills that are found innately within dyslexics. And peripheral thinking is a model that I created specifically to help translate the super skills from dyslexics for neurotypical individuals. And it's based on some research and some findings. But nevertheless, the primary, some of the more interesting attributes include a heightened peripheral vision. Okay. So medically it's been proven that dyslexics have a broader peripheral vision. And what we see in the periphery, we actually catch in more detail than most people. Which allows us then to connect dots where others don't see any dots. We see the full picture in many cases. And by doing that, we can more accurately and more creatively solve a problem. Because we're pulling in input from all resources, not just the obstacle that's in front of me. Interesting. And I think that more of us, even me, you know, sitting in these corporate meetings, I know that I can see my interaction where someone may have possibly been dyslexic. And they're just very much forward thinking. And their level of creativity is so heightened. The robust conversations that they've created, they've brought into the room has just been impactful and just over the top. But not over the top in a way that is so outside the box that people can't understand it. Correct. I'm not talking about three-legged monsters on Mars. We're creating the next automotive production line. We're creating the next approach to getting to Mars. We're creating all of those things. Right. So just to be clear, it's not just for artists and poets and musicians. Creativity is in every person. Absolutely. And when I say over the top, I'm talking about those inventive minds. Personally speaking, I just get blown away. So very impressive. So in what ways do you think your unique depth influenced by dyslexia has contributed positively to your professional endeavors? I happen to see more. And that is not a bragging thing. It's just the way my brain is wired. Give me an example of what that might look like or sound like to someone like me. Sure. So at a young age, you remember the connect the dots crayon things? Absolutely. I didn't do those because I saw the image. I could start it, but then I just hand it back to my parents and say, that's a duck on a pond. You know, right. And then my father was curious about that and he would remove dots. And I could still make out an image or I could come up with five or six possible images that are from that. So what that means is that I can't I see more things that are going on in a given moment than most people do, including micro expressions and human interaction. But just walking down the street, I can tell you the four cars that we passed, one of which is now turned. And I can tell you the make and model. It's not like brainiac stuff, but it's just seeing more because I see more. The second step of this and the second attribute is what we see in here often reminds us of something else. So I store in my mind a database that goes back to 1963. And you can cut that part out if you want to, because I don't know if people don't need to know how old I am. But if you keep it in, that's OK, too. So it goes back to them. And I can reference things from three or four years old that are actually applicable right now. I used it recently with a company client I was working with. It doesn't matter what the topic was, but I used something about how I learned to ride a bicycle to help them reinvent their approach to onboarding new clients and onboarding employees. That's what it means to see more and grab those connections and apply them in unique ways. Yeah, I would say that that's one of the ways that you strategize, right? What other strategies have you found effective in navigating the workplace as someone with dyslexia? It's difficult to pull out one specific strategy. I'm getting better at it. I can tell you all the 19 skills and what they mean. But one of the skills that dyslexics have and people that follow peripheral thinking, we can see macro and micro at the same time. And when we're at the macro level, we can look around in other areas, other industries, other countries, cultures, and go macro in those, raise up the principles and the lessons, bring them back to our macro micro strategy for this business, this initiative, whatever it is, and begin to apply those. So being able to switch from analytical to non-linear or lateral peripheral thinking is very natural because we see both the details and the big picture. We know where it's going and where it can go. I like where you're going with this as I'm listening to you talk about this is the different ways that educational systems can be supportive, more supportive to help individuals adapt. In what ways do you believe that traditional education systems can be adapted to better support individuals with dyslexia and encourage their potential? I do not want to be a naysayer. So let me try and spin this. The current education system is designed to create guardrails and to instill certain attributes that are generally accepted as meaningful and important. It does not allow for the 10 to 15% of the population that is neurodiverse or dyslexic. The first thing is identifying a potential. We shouldn't push on our teachers more than they already have. I have people that I care about very much that have been teachers that actually stopped teaching because of all the administrative pressure that's placed on them. And they're dealing with classroom management, all that other things to add one more thing for them to quote diagnose would be a tragedy. However, Microsoft recently, within the last two years, created a training program to help teachers identify the potential for neurodiversity just to call it out and then allow that parent child teacher to find either accommodations or to give them some insight so they can go get more specific. In fact, the mayor of New York City is dyslexic and all 100,000 public teachers in New York City has to have taken that free course by Microsoft in order to better understand what these students are dealing with and how to help identify it, not diagnose, but identify. That's a big step forward for the educational system. Yeah. And that's the path to learning difference, right? I think you had mentioned that when we first started talking. That's what created this question around traditional educational systems and what school systems are doing to encourage individuals with dyslexia and encouraging their potential for inventions or creativity or problem solving. So are there specific examples or case studies of dyslexic individuals making significant contributions to various bills through innovative ideas and inventions today? There are a few hundred thousand examples just by rattling off the handful of names. Well, OK, so there was a young man that that is dyslexic and this young man really struggled in school so much so that he dropped out of university. In fact, he dropped out of school at age 16. And interestingly enough, he dropped out because he wanted to start a magazine. Of all things, a dyslexic wanting to do a magazine. So he founded this magazine. If I tell you the name, you'll know the person. So stick with me on the story. Well, that magazine became very popular with the the group of people, the students that he had just left at university. That became the beginning of a of a media organization that branched off into a number of things, including music. And as that individual continued to succeed, he began to see the connections between businesses in different industries. So much so that started an airline, a cruise company, a health insurance company, a fitness club and 80 other companies in as many countries around the world. That's Richard Branson. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Where are you going with this? Right. I figured you did. It wasn't a lot of I couldn't keep that one too secret. But that's I mean, that's a great example of someone who had the support of friends and family who also knew he was dyslexic. I'm not certain that Henry Ford knew that he was dyslexic. I'm not certain that Agatha Christie knew that she was dyslexic. We simply learned to adapt and overcome. It takes us longer to do some things. But the innovations throughout history, you can track. I'm going to venture to say seventy five, seventy seven percent of those back to a dyslexic innovator and their input. Going into the question around supporting environments, you're talking about Richard Branson. The support he received has continuously received and how he has been thriving in so many different markets. In today's diverse workforce, workplaces need to foster environments to accommodate individuals with varying needs and abilities, dyslexia is a common learning difference and it affects how individuals process language. They present challenges in reading, writing and speaking tasks. Right. How can workplaces create a more inclusive and supportive environment for dyslexic employees to thrive and contribute to problem solving or expanding their vision for their work? The practical answer is being able to put it to a bottom line, which is what I do with my clients and keynotes and whatnot. I can bring it right down to dollars and cents. By using my dyslexia, I've helped companies generate two and a half billion dollars in annual new annual revenue. So if that doesn't first capture the attention of senior leaders, it's likely it won't ever. However, as they understand what contributes to the success of a company, making accommodations like a quiet place to read, giving more time to work through documentations. I ask my staff, look, if you think it's going to take an hour, it's going to take me two and a half or three. So just know that. And they're fine with that because the result is significantly better than if I had tried to rush through it or. What I found is showing the the leadership of an organization, what it's like to see and act and innovate like a dyslexic, how much easier it is when they can shed away some of these status quo and conventional wisdom and best practices. The light goes on. They start to speak about things in a way that the 10 to 15 percent of the population that's in their organization raise their hand and go, OK, I'm picking up what you're putting down. Are you dyslexic? Because I as an employee, I may never have told you that I am. But the way you're saying this now, I think we're on the same page. And that begins this this merging of talent, not just dyslexics, all talent, giving them the right to bring their full self to the company, all of their experiences, not just what I've learned in programming, not just what I've learned in engineering. Everything. Bring your whole self, all the things that you've ever experienced to the table. You can't deny that having that in an organization doesn't produce incredible results. Yeah, 100 percent. What unique strengths do dyslexic individuals bring to collaborative innovation and team dynamics that you can speak to? A couple of things. Not all dyslexics, including me, have the ability to articulate the the way that we came up with an idea or a solution or a process. And those that can often take a little time to explain it. You know, as I think of some of the innovations that I've created, I've created some stuff for the automotive industry and whatnot, explaining how I came up with a lighted wheel from a Kleenex box, a magazine cover. A coffee at Starbucks and a friend of mine who is a glassblower. You don't have time to hear all of that. But in 30 seconds, the idea was born like that. So what we bring is macro micro great analytical skills to see the gaps in in theory and the gaps in the strategy, the taking things at their core meaning and being able to translate that into meaning that applies to a particular issue. So there again, there are 18, 19, 20 skills. All of them are applicable, including empathy and the ability to interact with other people. I believe some of that has to do with just being dyslexic. We either had some people that were very patient with us or were never patient. But in either case, the dyslexia we've had to learn to be patient with ourselves. Now, that's very deliberate. There is the self-patience, self-care. But what advice would you give employers, educators or parents to help unlock the potential of individuals with dyslexia to help excel in their skills and talent? Yeah, I'm going to jump to the end of this story and begin there. The World Economic Forum puts out a future of jobs report every few years. And the last four of those over the last eight years, they talk about the skills needed for companies around the world in all industries to succeed in 2025, 27, 2030 and beyond. What they found is that those skills that are in the highest demand have the fewest number of people with those skills in the workforce. And because of that. More research went into it and the dyslexics and the consultants and like Ernst & Young and Made by Dyslexia and Richard Branson and others went in and did the same look at the same results and did their own studies. And about 80 percent of those skills that are in the highest demand are found within dyslexics. So to answer the question specifically, begin with the end in mind. Begin with the end in mind. You are in the highest demand that you have ever been in the history of of the written word. We believe many of the great explorers and world leaders before written word was most common were dyslexic, were neurodiverse because they saw many things. So up until then and to now, you are in the greatest need you've ever been. With that in mind, it crosses every industry, every skill, every profession. You can be anything. And you can be one of the best of any things that you choose to be by encouraging and and owning and supporting that approach to neurodiverse as well as just regular individuals, neurotypical people, anybody that feels like I have a purpose and my my goal is to find that purpose and put it to use. When you have that, you're unstoppable. That's why I get so excited about the future. We have everything we need right now, Laura. Right now, everything we need to achieve anything we can imagine. Stop World Hunger. Absolutely. Global warming. Got it. Travel to Pluto. Got it. We have everything now. We just need the right people with those backgrounds to come together. And collaborate. I would love to see that. I can't wait to see that happen. But, you know, I love the word that you use two words neurodiverse. Speaking of neurodiverse, but also we've seen how technology has shifted in the most epic ways, according to your viewpoint, how technology played a role in leveling the playing field for individuals that have dyslexia, especially in accessing information and participating in innovative activities. Sure. Just the very basic things like text to speech. Right. Being audio books. Thank goodness. But not all neurodiverse people are auditory learners either. Some are visual. So the ability for AI, chat, GPT, Dolly, the like to translate the written word into an image, graphs, those kinds of things. Technology is an enabler for everyone. As a dyslexic, we will likely use it differently. So, for instance, I just learned how to use GPT. Not chat GPT, but I created my own GPT. And I'm feeding that GPT all the content that I've created over the last five years, all my speeches and podcasts and whatnot. I'm feeding that. And then I'm asking it to tell me what I've said or to summarize or in one case, it wrote the outline for my next book. And it's all my content. Now, imagine that content is a piece of content. Now, imagine that content being categorized, right, where I can share that content and the categories of each input with other people. A friend of mine is with the National Geographic and she's been a National Geographic Explorer for 30 years. And she's been working with Google and some others. And she's been inputting data from from societies that don't have a written language. So she's a social anthropologist. That content is wisdom that's never been written down. So it's getting put in there. Now, we overlay this category of peripheral thinking there and I can pull nuggets and wisdom and truths and approaches and processes and lessons by saying, I need something to help me grow my business. I need to know how to overcome this challenge. And I might get the most interesting approach from the Wayfinders. The Wayfinders, have you ever heard of them? The people that live on the ocean and they navigate about all that stuff? Right. So that was one of the tribes that she spent several months on the ocean with. And their knowledge is now being input. My goodness, the technology as a dyslexic, everything is available. And how I combine it doesn't matter. It's the results. That's what I'm focused on. Yeah, I love the bottom line, which are the results for sure. Now that we've been talking about technology and the access to the wonderful and fundamental parts around lessons, processing, challenge, helping us to overcome challenges and integrate processes. What about, let's talk about misconceptions around dyslexia. Are there, you know, what are they? And especially its relationship with innovation and success. That dyslexics are big thinkers that really can't get anything done. They're more ideation than application. That's a misconception. Look at the people that I referenced earlier in the podcast. I think all of them got some stuff done. By the way, I'm a big Agatha Christie fan. And fascinating, a little tidbit about her. She has sold the second largest amount of books next to the Bible in history. That's amazing. Isn't that something? I did not know that. Nor did I. And an author that's dyslexic. Interesting, right? Love it. Right. So the misconceptions are very simple things like, oh, the letters are reversed or it misses a letter. There are many forms of this neurodiversity. For me, I take words from other parts of a page and insert them into the sentence that I'm reading. So it doesn't make sense. That's the way my neurodiversity hits. However, if you think about that optically, that means that my periphery is grabbing more content than what my immediate focus is and is trying to feed that in. In a reading environment, that's not so great. But in a working environment, that's awesome. Other misconceptions that it is a form, it's a disability. It's not a disability. It's a learning difference. You know, as I mentioned, 10 to 15 percent of the population is dyslexic. But did you know that 20 to 30 percent of entrepreneurs and nearly 40 percent of self-made millionaires are dyslexic? In fact, NASA actively recruits people with dyslexia. About 50 percent of NASA is dyslexic. And some have called dyslexia the MIT disease. It's not a disease. It's a learning difference. So I think I've hammered the learning difference thing home, maybe a little too hard. But it's there. When those misconceptions are understood, dyslexians aren't looking to be considered superheroes. We want to simply be included and allowed to contribute. So the misconceptions of lesser intelligence or inability to do certain basic, commonly used things or commonly activated things is something just to get over, as if red hair was a sign of genius or lack of intelligence, as if speaking a different language was an indicator. Those aren't, just like the ability... People that use their left hand. Right, right. So the misconception about left-handers is they're highly creative. Tends to be kind of true, but there are plenty that aren't artists or poets or musicians. So breaking down any conventional wisdom, anything that is a status quo, anything that has commonly been accepted but not challenged, like dyslexia, is a detriment to the individual, to the team, to a company. Yeah, I think that's really important that you bring that up, because we have such diverse workforces today. And there are individuals who often face hidden challenges that can impact their professional journey. As a professional with dyslexia, Paul, what advice would you give others that are facing similar challenges in their careers? Own it, first and foremost. Own the fact that you're dyslexic. If you think you're dyslexic and never been diagnosed, there are plenty of free online quick tests. They're not diagnosis, they're indicators. But I know Made by Dyslexia out of the UK, Kate Briggs is doing a great job there. Richard Branson sits on the board of that company. They've created several tests that you can take online and check to see if you're dyslexic. Own that you are dyslexic. Second, it's okay to be proud of your dyslexia. And if you're not, then that means you haven't looked deeply enough into the value, the skills, the things that are innately within you that some have said are less than important, that have said, well, you're just a daydreamer or we don't get you, you're an outsider. Cast that away and learn what it is to be dyslexic. And you'll identify those skills that are the greatest within you and then share the fact that you are dyslexic. It's difficult. And I understand for many people that are in the position where they're not in leadership or they don't necessarily feel like they have control over their future to raise your hand and say, I've got a learning difference. You go, oh, gosh, I don't know. You're in marketing. You're supposed to be able to read copy. Blah, blah, blah. I'm not sure we can do this. Nope, nope. That has nothing to do with it. It just means that it takes me a little longer. But let me point to my good friend, Agatha Christie, who wrote some great copy from marketing called Novels. Owning that, learning it, then owning it, opening up and fessing up to the fact that you are dyslexic and being quick and ready to explain what it is that your dyslexia brings to the table for the organization that you're in. Whether that's profit, nonprofit, a small group, you know, an HOA, wherever you are, don't be shy about what you see because what you see is so much different and more expansive and frankly, more applicable than what others see, which is pedantic, status quo, conventional. The world doesn't need any more of that. It needs you. Yeah, absolutely. 100% Paul. You're right. People need to lean into that opposed to trying to hide it and conceal it. Can you highlight initiatives or programs that empower dyslexic individuals to pursue careers in like science, technology, engineering, mathematics or other innovative fields? NASA actively recruiting people with dyslexia. It's not just a joke. That's real. About 50% of the people that put people on the moon and fly around in space, they're not idiots. And many of them came from MIT, I guess, because it's called MIT disease. The programs are out there, but they are not prolific because statistically we are 10 to 15% of the population. So they're not actively looking. It's growing in importance with people like you mentioned, Whoopi Goldberg and Karen Knightley and Tom Cruise and pick a bunch of famous actors and the like. That are speaking out and Henry Winkler is another. They're speaking out about the creativity that's associated with dyslexia and just the general brain power that's associated with it. Just doesn't have to be creativity. And I'm not going to give into the whole diatribe about creativity. Everybody has it. Here's how. The point is the programs are few. I'm doing my best to begin at the top. So that's why I'm spending time with corporate executives and leaders teaching them this peripheral thinking skill and it happened to slide in the fact that it's from dyslexics, which gives them an opportunity to say, hmm, maybe we should actively recruit people with dyslexia or at least make sure that we know the people in our organization that have it. There are several schools around the world that are for neurodiverse individuals. I'll be very clear. When you think of those schools, this is not a school where children that just simply struggle with mental capacities go. This is a place where they're teaching you your unique way of learning to read and write and the like and in the midst of that, showing you your superpowers. We were very fortunate that our daughter was able to get into, I think it's the 10th largest teaching school. It's an educational program and it's also a teaching academy. They teach teachers how to teach dyslexia or teach dyslexic students. That's my dyslexic talking right there. She remediated very quickly in her reading, went on to get accepted into five very prestigious universities and went on to get her master's degree in psychology. If you've ever seen the words that come out of psychology and sociology, I have. Right. It's the same person that chose the word dyslexic to describe this neurodiversity. Dyslexics can't even spell dyslexic. Shame on that person for doing it. That's why I chose peripheral thinking because sometimes it's difficult to say and it's kind of thumbing my nose at those that come up with words that are non-inclusive. One of the things that I want to ask you about is you've mentioned a couple of times you're talking about the skills the dyslexic people have. What are those peripheral you mentioned about 19 or 20 of them when we first talked. What are some of them? Their names don't always dictate, don't describe exactly what the skill is. Interpreting, the ability to take input from disparate sources, break those into elements, reassemble those elements and create something new. Obviously innovation, several forms of analytics, different human interaction skills, empathy, being able to read a room, being able to read a person, to empathize with them and to connect with them on a very human level is another. Obviously creativity, creating something from nothing. Now they're going to get into long words that are more difficult to understand but everything truly from the deep analytical skills that see patterns, pattern recognition, speaking, though I'm struggling to speak, be able to communicate ideas. I got you Paul but you're talking about recognizing patterns and I think that that's one of the things that gives a organization or department a competitive advantage is when they recognize those patterns within the organization or specific departments that are creating or innovating new technology for example. If they're able to even by utilizing AI in the department, you know, IT uses these different platforms that's where recognizing patterns and having someone with a genius and that is dyslexic, I think that's a gift right? Absolutely especially for an organization and that individual's ability to recognize the patterns in that company as it relates and through the filter of other experiences. So I have a great experience on a Saturday morning with Mike at Home Depot in the hardware aisle. He talks about his time when he was at Deloitte. He spends and he talks about going golfing in Scotland. He's retired and I walk away every Saturday not because I not because I need to buy something at Home Depot though I do it's to meet Mike because he has just these insights and I walk away writing down thoughts about what he said oh I could do that I could use this with this client that's an interesting idea if that concept is true then so seeing the patterns outside and then bringing those insights into an organization 10X's the efficacy of that creative input and pattern recognition. Yeah that's just genius. One of my former podcasts was around performance. Since we're talking about leaning into those special gifts how do organizations encourage people with dyslexia lean into performance and stay as a top performer or maintain the performance? Yeah. It's first by recognizing they have that dyslexics have strengths and are they in the correct position where they can use their strengths the majority of the time. Yes we all have activities that we don't like to do but if that's seven and a half of your eight hours or 13 and a half of my 14 hour day then it's probably not the right fit so making sure they're in the right place and including the dyslexics in groups teams initiatives that you typically wouldn't so I have a dyslexic who is a programmer why am I not including that person and I'm not even a technology company let's say I'm not even software I'm a financial institution and this person is with Bank of America and they're dyslexic and they're a programmer if you recognize the fact that they have and those can apply to the next innovative project you have why wouldn't you include them in that project team because they're going to bring a new perspective now before I go way off let me make sure that people that listen to this if you are not dyslexic you are still special you're still super smart and you have experiences that are relevant to your current position but let me let me just encourage you they are very relevant dropping your child off at daycare today there was something that happened an experience that you had that has an element of why it was good or bad that you can apply today as as the the leader or the manager of your IT organization of your human resources department going back to dyslexics giving them an opportunity to contribute beyond what their current role is will expand everyone else's capability on that team to here comes the phrase think outside the box okay hate the phrase I'll tell you if you're interested I'll tell you why I hate the phrase but to help other people think more about what they can do to support and to take full advantage of the skills within dyslexics and within the skills of other people now that we're talking about performance a lot of the organizations that I work with especially during the pandemic and now post-pandemic they struggle quite a bit around performance and because of stress burnout let's talk a bit about post-pandemic and help me see it through your eyes what was your experience when the pandemic hit I started thinking about 2025 because that's just the way I think and I knew that it wasn't going to be a couple of weeks I knew that it wasn't going to happen in 2025 in order to achieve what we set out to achieve what needs to happen in light of these things performance and the performance during COVID I think gave many people an opportunity to reflect on what their skills are but you also see a huge increase in entrepreneurial ventures because people finally said you know this isn't right for me I've been doing this because I'm chasing the money I'm chasing the accolades I'm chasing the acronyms that come after my career we're not post pandemic we're in a new environment where organizations need to acknowledge and take stock of all of the skills that are available within their company and align those skills with what they are happier less stressed innovation doesn't have to be a death march to get a product out you know I've got friends at J&J and P&G and they're extremely creative and yes there is a lot of work to your benefit and skills so productivity and performance in post pandemic era is based on the contributions of those people and their ability to know their strengths and how best to apply them to their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their business and their