Mick Dawson, a former Royal Marine and ocean rower, shares his remarkable achievements and experiences in a podcast interview. He discusses his book, "Battling the Oceans on a Rowboat," which tells the story of his successful row from Japan to San Francisco's Golden Gate Bridge. Mick also talks about his speaking engagements, where he shares lessons on teamwork, leadership, resilience, and overcoming challenges. He founded the Cockleshell Endeavour, a resource to help recovering veterans, and continues to raise funds for military charities. Mick's experiences highlight the importance of critical thinking and leadership in navigating challenges and making informed decisions.
Welcome to Coachnomics Presents podcast, a part of the ECS Network. I'm your host, Laura Perez Earhart. I'm a management consultant and executive coach. I've been consulting and coaching executive leaders for a couple of decades. My guest is Mick Dawson. Mick is a former Royal Marine, a seasoned ocean rower, author, filmmaker, and founder. He's achieved remarkable feats, successfully rowing the Atlantic Ocean, not once, but twice, and skippering the first rowboat to cross the Northern Pacific from Japan to San Francisco's Golden Gate Bridge.
In 2018, he rowed from California to Hawaii with blind veteran Steve Sparks, who became the first visually impaired person to row the Pacific. That's pretty darn impressive. In 2015, Mick established the Cockleshell Endeavour, a resource to help recovering veterans with physical and mental health issues. Through this initiative, he continues to raise funds for military charities and sets records while supporting the service community. As a captivating speaker, Mick tours to promote his books, notably, Rowing the Pacific, a must-read, including Never Leave a Man Behind, available on Amazon.com.
His presentations are filled with passion, humor, and expertise, drawing from his diverse and unique maritime experiences. Mick shares valuable lessons on teamwork, adaptive leadership, resilience, and overcoming seemingly impossible challenges in the harshest environments. His colorful and exciting presentations inspire leaders, individuals, and teams striving to achieve their goals and ambitions in any environment. You can connect with Mick via his email, Mick at 189days.com. That's Mick, M as in Mary, ICK at 189days.com. Or for speaking engagements with Mick, go to his website, www.cockleshellendeavour.com.
That's www.cockleshellendeavour.com. So, Mick, it's great to have you on my show today. Thank you so much for sharing your time with our listeners. Thank you for the invite. You wrote this brilliantly crafted book that is a sitting-at-the-edge-of-my-seat book, even holding my breath. Talk about your book, Battling the Oceans on a Rowboat. What's it about? Well, it's basically the story of everything that took me eventually to row successfully from Japan to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, the first and only time it's ever been done.
So, it was a conclusion to all my adventures. So, and to be honest, it was the reason all the adventures started. I was told by a teacher I should become a journalist. I said, well, how can I write about anything if I haven't done anything? So, I joined the Royal Marines and that led me on a life of adventure that saw me on the North Pacific in a rowboat and ultimately the book that told the story.
I was literally at the edge of my seat and I couldn't put the book down. It's fantastically written. The details in here in your challenges and near-death experience was just, you know, and your survival. So, talk more about when you were coming to terms with your reality of your potentially near-death experience. The interesting thing about it is writing the book was when I got perspective on everything. When I was actually doing the things and planning and executing them and dealing with the challenges that come up, I honestly didn't have the same view.
In fact, I was thinking when we discussed this interview about some of the points you brought up and thought I'd have a totally different view when I was dealing with them than what I've got now. And writing the book really was the catalyst for having that perspective because you don't really get the chance to analyze things as closely as you might when you're trying to achieve them. But when you look back on it post-event, you just have a more rounded view, I think.
So I owe a lot to the book. I think I'm glad that you think it does a story justice because it's quite frankly, the most important thing for me is that that record exists. Fantastic. Yeah. And I also know that you have speaking engagements about the book and your experiences. I do. Yeah. Yeah. I really speak about why I promote the book, obviously, as an author and the second book that followed it, My Other Adventures. But yeah, I mean, I speak as a professional speaker to do people dealing with problems using a completely different approach because one's a pretty unique set of adventures.
But the principles for dealing with any challenge are exactly the same. Mine's just a more colorful background to illustrate those principles. And also I think to introduce people to the ocean because obviously I have a deep affection for the ocean. And I think that most people get that even if they don't want to go out on the ocean, they get the appeal and the magic of it. Absolutely. I'm definitely afraid of the ocean. And I finally gave into it.
And I took the opportunity to actually dive into the ocean. And it was the most spectacular thing I could have done. And I would do it again. You're a former Royal Marine commando. And one of the most impressive things about you and your philanthropy is you founded the Kong Shell Endeavor. Talk about that a bit. Well, that really came at the end of the rowing when I was finally successful and reached Goldgate Bridge. Even literally as I got off the boat, people were asking me what was next, considering it would take me 10 years to get to that stage and actually six and a half months at sea to actually complete the row.
And I didn't think that I needed a what's next. In fact, if there was a what's next, it was right in the book. But it became apparent fairly soon that I still wanted to pursue things. And the appeal, the draw to the ocean and the water has never, well, it certainly hasn't left me, it'll never leave me. But it came about by pure luck. I was contacted by a friend to go back to the Falklands. We both fought in the Falklands war as young Marines.
His mother asked me to sort him a trip back because we could go back quite cheaply to help him out. And I didn't know he needed any help. We were often unaware of other people's struggles. He was obviously struggling with PTSD. He had gone for help to the official charities. They had effectively said, yes, you seem to have a problem. Go away, no drugs, no alcohol for three months and we'll diagnose you officially. And he turned around to me and he said, well, if I could do that, I wouldn't need the help, would I? And that literally is where the Cockleshell Endeavor was born.
I created a project which I thought would get him through that three months. It took more like two years. And ultimately, we kayaked in a two man kayak all over the world on various expeditions and then went back to the Falklands in a two man kayak and circumnavigated the part of the island that we both fought on. So it helped my mate. It helped get him back on track. I wouldn't say it solved all of his problems, but it started to.
And it basically evolved into a project that ultimately would see me then, amongst other things, right across the Pacific for a second time with a blind veteran. That is astonishing and it's brilliant. But I'm curious, tell me how you made the critical decision to take on something far bigger than yourself, namely the ocean. What were you thinking? What led you to make that decision? I mean, it's like taking on Goliath. It never appeared to be that.
If you'd have asked me at the time, I would have not seen it in that respect at all. Although I can look back now and think that's exactly what I was doing. But for me, it was like a door opening. I'd left the Marines by that stage. I was working in private yachting on big luxury yachts. Absolutely hated it. I'd gone from an environment where people would put their life on the line for you without even thinking about it to an environment where everything's governed on monetary value.
Well, I saw it that way and I wanted to get back to the sea properly. And I found out about a rowing race across the Atlantic from Tenerife, the Canary Islands, to the first one was Barbados. And the second I saw that, it was like a light switch going on. I knew absolutely we could do that. I knew I could do it. I knew my brother would want to do it. He was also a former Royal Marine.
And that's exactly what we did. And there was no element of it being bigger than us. I thought, well, that's exactly what we're meant to do. And for really the whole Emotion Run Adventures, I've had that feeling. I do take your point. Looking back on it now, it was a pretty big ask. Definitely takes a lot of resiliency and grit to go through what you went through. Leadership and critical thinking are intertwined pillars that guide effective decision making in today's complex world.
A true leader recognizes the significance of critical thinking and its role in making informed choices. They understand that critical thinking involves analyzing information, questioning assumptions, evaluating evidence, and considering multiple perspectives before concluding. In leadership, critical thinking enables individuals to navigate the challenges and uncertainties that arise. Leaders who possess strong critical thinking skills can assess situations objectively, identify potential risks and opportunities, and devise creative solutions. They don't merely rely on intuition or preconceived notions, but approach problems with a curious and open mind.
Incorporating critical thinking and decision making into leadership cultivates an atmosphere of intellectual rigor, innovation, and progress. This approach inspires individuals to question assumptions, embrace diverse perspectives, and continually refine their ideas. Adapting such leadership improves the quality of decision making, empowering team members and individuals to enhance their critical thinking skills. This, in turn, fosters a culture of excellence and adaptivity. In this podcast, we're joined by Mick Dawson, who imparts valuable lessons on adapting critical thinking. He sheds light on how our perspectives can shift instantly, challenging what we think we know.
The episode offers essential advice and takeaways for leaders, individuals, and teams seeking to strengthen their decision making abilities. Let's take a listen. Let's talk about strategy and decision making and how they're interlinked. So it's important to understand the decision you make and the strategy, strategic outcome. If you have strategy, that's the end goal. That decision is your tactic. So what was your tactic to ensure that you stayed alive and successfully made your journey and lived to tell? It was based on a protocol, really.
And again, it was then it was almost automatic to me. I never thought about it. It was certainly lessons I've learned in the Marines about overcoming challenges, achieving goals. And the simple one, and also learning to sail. I've learned to sail years before. And the best people I sailed with basically worked on two basis. And that was make it safe and make the boat go faster. Above all, make it safe because you can't achieve your goal if you're sinking.
The decision I based around, I had to justify myself in terms of safety. So there's ways to make a boat go faster. But if it compromises safety, then that decision doesn't fly. And it's a self-policing way of dealing with, in my case, a potentially lethal environment. Absolutely. You had real sharks. Real sharks, yeah. Real sharks to deal with, right? I just didn't know what was beneath the surface. Everything in the ocean is going to eat you.
It's just how long it takes to get around to it. And that's a good analogy for life in general and business in general. It is. Yeah, there's sharks in all sorts of shapes and forms. So I'm curious, as I'm sure a lot of listeners are also curious, why would you put yourself in such a precarious position? Why take such a risk? There was an element of it was a reason why I joined the Marines. My character was that I wanted to experience life.
I did in pretty intense ways in the Marines, in good ways. And it grew from there. And probably didn't help the fact that the Marines gave me a lot more ability to achieve those goals. My ambitions probably got stronger, got higher. And I love the sea. As long as I can remember, all I dreamed about was being at sea. And that was the guiding factor. It was my passion. It was the thing that drove me. It still is.
Being by the sea or ideally being on it. So, yeah, it was just a natural progression. So how do you define excellence? That's a really good question, actually. Excellence would be doing something that totally fulfills your potential. Pursuing something that means something to you. Not just achieving a goal that has no meaning for you. We can all do that. But finding something that has got inherent value for you. And just the journey to achieve that in itself will be the fulfillment you need.
And to actually, as I've been lucky enough to get the end of that and achieve a goal that, quite frankly, most people would think was impossible. There has to be a level of excellence in that. I'm loathe to say excellence, but there has to be. That ultimate goal. But it has to be something that you care about. 100% agreed. I think that having the passion, vision, and not allowing anything to sway you away from that decision or that goal.
Our conversation today has everything to do, a lot to do with leadership, attaining goals, taking risks. And how to make those critical decisions to get to that end game. We've encountered a lot of setbacks, which in business we do. We knew it was setbacks and challenges in the ocean. How do you overcome those setbacks to achieve something so remarkable? It has to be going down a road that you're passionate about. And passion is one of those words that people dismiss.
But all passion means, if you're passionate about something, it means you've got fuel. An inexhaustible supply of fuel to pursue that goal. And we've all got it. We've all got things that we're passionate about. But if you lose the main passion and just say, right, I've got lots of energy to do this, then it becomes far more attainable. And that's the key. If you're doing something that you love, you won't run out of energy to achieve the goal, even when it goes wrong.
And the thing is, when it goes wrong, as bad as that is, and as much as I wish it never had gone wrong, the huge bonus of when it does go horribly wrong is you have lessons to learn. And everything that went wrong for me taught me exactly what I needed to do to go back and make it successful. Every single thing that I needed to know come from the fact that I had setbacks. In our experiences, good or bad, there's always lessons to learn.
When we look back at that rearview mirror, we can see clearly, even you today, as I'm having this conversation with you, you stated earlier that you've never really given it thought as to your ambitious goal of rowing across the ocean. Making that critical decision, having the passion to do so, it really, I truly do believe that it does give us fuel to really keep pushing through. Leaders often step out into the unknown depending on the circumstances.
So it can be somewhat ominous as they launch out toward their mission. How confident were you, Mick, being tested as you stepped out into the unknown, namely uncharted waters? I was absolutely convinced I was going to be successful, even when I wasn't. I mean, I tried solo as well, but that's still, you're still part of a team when you're doing that. And even when I was effectively sinking 1,000 miles off the American coast, trapped in the cabin of an ocean rowing boat, I was already working out the things I needed to do to go back, ultimately, and make it successful.
So even with the worst of setbacks, I was still confident it could be done. How do you not second-guess yourself? You're walking this tightrope, and in your book on page 48 specifically, the tightrope between instinct and panicking. Let's talk about that, leading this rowboat excursion. And how much did instinct play into your decision-making and keep you from panicking? Instinct is crucial, but you have to analyze it. You have to justify the instincts that you're reacting to.
You have to take in the circumstances you're dealing with and ask yourself questions about them and confirm that your instincts, as they invariably are, are sending you in the right direction. And I think the key thing about being a leader in a team environment is your first instinct and your first responsibility is to the team. Because if the team's looked after, which is your only real role as a leader, in my view, the goal will take care of itself.
It's about the team performing to the best of its ability, and that's what good leaders do. They create an environment and an atmosphere that the team performs to its best ability. Whether that team is 100 people or 2 people, that principle remains the same, in my view. You know, they always say that it's lonely at the top, and for you, it was very lonely in the ocean. You're completely out on your own with no one else to rely on to help you consider other alternatives.
You're left to your own instincts to make decisions that have a great impact on whether you survive or perish. How did you trust yourself to make the right decisions? How did you know you were making the right or best decision without any kind of feedback or anybody to advise you? I dealt with that because, obviously, I've had solo rows and I've rowed on several occasions with one other rower. And I have to say the responsibility of making those decisions weighed far more heavily on me when somebody else's life was at risk.
And I probably came as close to second-guessing decisions more then than I ever did alone. I don't remember ever struggling with decisions on my own because I had that protocol of keeping myself safe, keeping this boat going as fast as it can within the parameters of that safety to get where it's going. So all the decisions I was happy with because I was making them with that protocol. But when it was somebody else's life on that boat as well, which ultimately, that's at risk.
There's no two ways about that on a rowing boat on an ocean. I probably came closer to second-guessing those decisions more often because I absolutely, it didn't matter what happened to me, but it did matter what happened to the people with me. Most definitely. I can't imagine being put in that position. I believe that instinct and using our own intuition, especially if we don't have anybody to lean into, plays a huge part in making those critical decisions.
Most people don't have Royal Marine training. What advice do you give our listeners around decision-making and staying calm? The key is, really, if you're going to pursue a goal of any value, pursue something you're passionate about, be it professional or personal. Be passionate about it because you'll have that energy to achieve the goal and it will mean more. It's as simple as that, really. Once you get into that situation where you've picked your path, do everything you can to be as good at that job as you can.
Training and experience are the two key factors. Again, something I wouldn't have agreed with at the time, but it was useful to me. Looking back, it was absolutely the thing. If you're going to go down a path into an environment, be it business or professional or adventure like mine, you know roughly the things you're going to be dealing with. So prepare yourself so that when those things come, you've got some answers. When the alarm bells go off and you want to panic, you don't need to because I've got answers to this.
I know what to do in this situation. You'll never be 100% prepared. There will be things that you have to adjust on the way. But if you've got a template there of experience and training, you'll be able to adapt and react to those situations and overcome them. You don't need to be former military to do that. You just need to know what you want to do, how you're going to achieve it, and what you need to put in place before you start down that path.
Think also, Mick, having a life raft, right? And a plan B. Absolutely, yeah. And adaptability. If the situation changes, you don't have to cripple yourself to follow a goal that no longer makes any sense. Even if you find things out about yourself and it's not quite what you should be doing, or you realise it's the wrong decision, that's the hardest decision. The hardest decisions are when you have to change it or doing a bad turn, but they're the most important ones.
And be prepared to do that. Don't question yourself. Have the reasons for doing it, not just because it's got tough, but is there a valid reason for pursuing this or going in a different direction? In your book, you talk about you needed to take a different perspective and make different decisions. You knew that it was no longer focused on your training in the military. When I was rowing the Atlantic with Moz, the stranger. Yeah. Talk about that.
You have to be flexible. If there's one thing I've learned, that no one's ever defeated by the challenge in front of them. They're defeated by their approach to the challenge. And they're defeated by their approach to the challenge and the fact that they won't change that approach. They're too rigid. A perfect example for me is I rowed the Atlantic the second time by stepping onto a boat to replace a crew member and rowing with a complete stranger.
And his reaction to the challenges we had could not have been more different from mine in the military. They were the complete opposite. And we came to a situation where he basically refused to row and I could not grasp this. And it was a showstopper. The row was going to not go any further because of that. And he went and got his head down in the cabin. I was rowing and then realized he wasn't the problem on the boat.
I was the problem. It was my military attitude that nothing stops you was unfair. He'd never been on an Atlantic gale before, let alone rowed in one. And I was being totally, totally unrealistic to expect him to deal with it. He needed me to be on that boat to help him through the experience. The realization, I remember at the time feeling ashamed of myself that I had gone down this road so focused on the goal, completely forgot about the team.
And from that moment on, one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned, the lesson that would eventually see me successfully row the Pacific with Chris Martin, from that moment on, I called him out, explained to him the situation. We rowed out the storm that we were dealing with that basically frightened him a little bit. And he stepped out of that boat and he could not have been a better rowing partner from that point on. He needed the experience.
He needed to see the storm, see it wasn't as terrifying as his imagination was painting it to be. And my job on that boat was to get him through that experience and make him a better team member to deal with the situation going forward. Yeah, it was a painful lesson for me because I should have realized it better, but it was one of the most important ones I've ever had. And Moz, the guy I was rowing with, he's family now more than a friend.
So it's a more important lesson than rowing. It was a great lesson for both of you. Every leader realize that they're in the middle of a situation and they need to pivot quickly. Their perception or perspective on how they've been leading and based on their experiences is not necessarily the situation with their team members. You had to change your mindset. You had someone in front of you and they were desperately showing you what their challenge was and you needed to change your mindset to be able to adapt quickly and to be able to train and coach that individual to help them through that critical situation.
This was a huge lesson learned. Talk about what other major lessons you learned along your journey. That was probably the biggest lesson for me. I think it was that way because it was quite painful. It hurt personally to realize I've got that situation before I realized I should have picked up on that sooner. But it's part of that broader lesson that I've learned that I absolutely believe nobody's defeated by a challenge. They're defeated by their approach to it.
That negativity we feel when something's going wrong, that doesn't come from what you're dealing with. That comes from you. It comes from your reaction to it. It's that human reaction. We take it personally that the world's against us. It's all being done to stop me. It's not. It's just a series of situations. If you change your approach to it, you can find a way around it. The best example I can give of that, not as dramatic as with Moz, was in a solo road on the North Pacific.
Eight days of being pushed backwards every mile forward, two miles back. Not particularly bad weather, just wrong direction wind, 10, 12 knots stopping me. Psychologically, absolutely destroying me. And sitting there thinking, I mean, could it be done? It still hadn't been done. Was it impossible? Was I wasting my time? And I was as close to defeat as I'd ever been on a rowing boat. And out of the speakers, my brother actually sorted the music out for me.
I didn't know what music was on it. It was Discover On The Way. Song came out. I'll never forget, or I might misquote it. It was a song called Chatham's Life by Divine Comedy, a British band. And the words were coming out of the speakers, sometimes life is like being afloat on a raging sea in a little rowboat with the waves just trying to wash you overboard. But if you take your chances and you ride your luck and never, never, never, never, never give up, those waves will see you to a friendly shore.
Now, that single song transformed my attitude, my approach on that boat. From that point on, I went from being absolutely destroyed, defeated at the lowest of the low to being I'm unbeatable. It was as if it had been written for it. But the key about it was nothing changed. I was still going backwards more often than going forwards for the next eight days. But one crucial factor had changed my approach to the problem. I had found a way to have a different approach to what I was dealing with.
And that really is probably the biggest lesson I've ever learned, that your defeat comes from you. It doesn't come from what you're facing a thousand times out of a thousand and one challenges. Brilliantly said, and I 100% agree. Emotional intelligence has a lot to play in this, where you have a good level of self-awareness, right? Totally, yeah. You'll learn that on the way. Hopefully, you'll learn that. That's the lesson that life will keep giving you, that self-awareness.
Yeah. I think the advice that you're giving here and your life lessons is good for anybody, whether they're a senior leader or someone who is climbing up the corporate ladder and they're still growing their leadership legs. This is brilliant advice. As they look to set out goals, take risks, most importantly, their path around critical thinking and decision making. I stick to four basic principles around effective decision making, which is analyzing information, questioning assumptions, evaluating evidence and consider different perspectives, which we are talking about.
What advice, Mick, can you give to our listeners and share with leaders who take on great responsibility for making decisions, knowing there are consequences that impact others and the organization? Talk about some basic principles that you encompass. I think everything revolves around the team. What you succeed with, what, more importantly, you don't succeed with, ultimately will come down to how your teams work. And leaders, basically, their biggest responsibility is maximizing the potential of the team. It's not about the goal.
The goal will take care of itself if you put the team in the right situation to achieve those goals. So, for me, it's one of the biggest lessons I've learned is your team is everything. And teamwork, the basis of great teamwork for me is the ethos. It's the human ethos. It's how we're meant to function as human beings. Put the other person first. Create an atmosphere where all the people in your team, including you, especially you, put the other person first because we react to that.
We want to give that back a bit more. And then it comes back to you a bit more. And the team becomes so much stronger than the sum of its parts. That's why Chris Martin and I successfully got across the North Pacific because we became a great team built on that ethos to the point, albeit extreme, of pretty much putting our lives on the line for each other. But knowing that brings out the best in you.
For me, the biggest gift, as well as a responsibility, is that as a leader, you get to be the person who shapes the teams to achieve those goals. Nicely said. My final question for you is if you wrote a letter to your younger self today, what advice would you give? That's a good one. If it was my younger self, I would be so much more glib about this, but now I'm actually becoming quite elderly. I thought long and hard about this.
And it'd be simple, I think. It's simple to me now. It wouldn't have been then. Follow your passions. Pursue your passions. Recognise them and integrate them in your life. Trust your instincts, but question them. Be patient and don't kick yourself when you're not patient because you won't be until you get to this end of the story. Most importantly, be kind to the people around you because they're the ones who suffer the most when we're all pursuing our passions and our challenges, and they're the most important people.
The most important thing which I've learned at this end of the journey is don't think that at the start of the journey you have to be the person who can finish it. Get as well prepared as you can for the start, but accept that you build that person en route to the goal that you're aiming for. And that route will never be A to B. It will always be going through a variety of turns and setbacks and challenges that will shape the person who ultimately achieves the goal.
And put yourself some slack and allow yourself that knowledge at the beginning and don't think you have to be better than the person to start the journey because that's all you need. Thank you so much for this incredible conversation and for sharing your journey with us today. This is definitely advice that we can all use around critical decision-making, taking risks, but also embracing the critical thinking skills. Also how we apply them around the work that we're doing.
It lays the groundwork for success, resilience, and sustainable growth, right? Absolutely. Thank you, Mick. This is outstanding. And we will talk again, my friend. I look forward to it. Thank you for the invitation. Pleasure's all mine. Leadership and critical thinking go hand in hand, forming a powerful combination that propels organizations forward. Leaders who embrace critical thinking skills and apply them to their decision-making processes lay the groundwork for success, resilience, and sustainable growth. By nurturing a culture that values critical thinking, leaders inspire their teams and individuals to tackle complex challenges and create positive change in an ever-evolving world.
That's it for this episode of Coaching Office Presents. If you're interested in being a guest or you're a subject matter expert, please go to my website, www.epiphanyconsultingsolutions.com and submit your requests on the Let's Chat link. You can also find me on LinkedIn under Laura Perez Erhart or my website, Epiphany Consulting Solutions. We hope the content and conversation will give sparks of inspiration. If you love and learn from the show, look forward to sharing my podcast with your colleagues and friends.
I'm Laura Perez Erhart. Until next time, stay safe and live well.
