nattie,_olivia roberts _ jan 4, 2024 002_riverside

The speaker welcomes listeners to the Little Happy Podcast and introduces her guest, Olivia Roberts, an old college friend. They discuss how life has changed since they last spoke 15 years ago and the journey of creating the podcast. Olivia shares about her marriage, having five children, and homeschooling them. They talk about the challenges and growth that comes with parenting and navigating through constant change. Olivia emphasizes the importance of creating daily rhythms and routines to provide stability for her children. Despite living in different places due to her husband's career, she finds ways to maintain these rhythms and prioritize family time. Welcome back to a Little Happy Podcast. We're so excited that you have found this little happy space that we are creating on a weekly basis. Thank you for those who continue to listen and like and subscribe to our episodes. And I am particularly excited to be recording this week with an old friend, a friend who I haven't talked to. We were just catching up before we started recording for at least a decade, Olivia Roberts. Olivia and I were in college together, actually, of all things, enrolled in the Little 500 at Indiana University. And she has since married her college sweetheart, has had a bunch of kids and is currently living in Hawaii, of all places. Olivia, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting with me today. You are so welcome, Natty. It's great to catch up. I know. We were just saying before we started, when we popped on, I said, I don't think I have seen you. It's been a really long time and there's been a lot of life, I think, that's happened for each of us since we last spoke. Yeah, there has been. I mean, it's been since 2008. So that's 15 years, Natty. OK, don't date so much. Right. No, I still think it's incredible. I still think that college was like five years ago and it is not. It's not five years ago. It's not. You look great, though. Oh, thank you. I am really happy to spend some time catching up with you. And we were sharing before we started, you know, the inception of A Little Happy Podcast, how it really has been born out of this desire to connect with women in a more authentic way and learn how we are just navigating our everyday life. And I have been so grateful for social media to be able to stay somewhat connected to you in your life, because it is it seems just like this really amazing journey that you and your spouse, Andrew, have created in the life that you two share. And so I thought as I was thinking about conversations that I'd love to have and perspective I want to share, I thought it would be really cool to hear about what you've been up to in the last 15 years. And so thanks for being willing to join me. You're welcome. It has been a journey. And it's like you said before, we started in evolution. And I think that's what life is. It's all an evolution. As long as we choose to grow, especially in the hard times, if we don't grow or choose to grow in any dark time that we're in, we won't get to reap the fruit later. And I mean, yes, Instagram and social media shows lots of the good that comes out of the work, I think. I think when we look at people and we admire something that we like about them, we don't realize what may have been the struggle underneath and the growth. You can't have joy without having depression, I don't think. You can't have peace without the chaos. You mean we don't just get it? No, we don't. And I wish we did. And I thought we did for a long time until I had five kids. We don't just get it. Yeah, I mean, it is very easy. And probably in the season of life that I knew you, when we were in college, I was under the assumption that we just got it. Me too. We would get joy, we'd get success, maybe. That life would just come at us at a gentle pace. And that has not necessarily been the case for me, I know. And I'm not unique in that. I think everyone has experienced that as we've gotten older. But so you just mentioned you've got five kids. So I don't even know, we would have to have series after series to catch up from the last 15 years. But for those that may not know who you are, can you share a little bit more about yourself? Sure. Well, I'm married to my college sweetheart, like Natty, we talked about at the beginning. So Andrew and I met in college, our freshman year, in a class. It was called Images of Jesus in Western Culture. It was a hilarious class. It's like one of those one, it's like the class you had to take. It's just a weird requirement class. So the fact that we met in that class, it's like one in a million chances. It was one of those random courses that you just had to check off. And that was the class that we took. And that's where we met. But we didn't start dating until our end of our junior year. And then we got married October 2009. I had graduated. Andrew took a victory lap and then commissioned as an officer in the Army. So from the get go, we were doing the Army life. Yeah. And me, I've just kind of been along for the ride. I worked for a year and then we just had babies. And I love to write. I love walking and yoga and swimming and lots of dark chocolate and lots of tea. And I have written in and out since we lived in Destin. I wrote for our local blog. And that's my side passion that I know will come out in later years. So when you have five kids, it's just a lot. And I homeschool our kiddos. And yeah, so I'm busy. My full time job is homeschooling. You just wrinkled that in at the end as if it was no big deal. It's a big deal. It's a big deal. So Andrew and I have always told people. So we have five kids and that's a lot. It is a lot. But we have three. Our first three were really easy children. So we had lots of pride. We said, oh, this isn't so bad. But that's like nature's way of humbling you. And then we had number four and he put me through the wringer and we were done. We were done. I was like, we had two girls, two boys. I was like crying all of the time and had to talk to a therapist because I didn't know how to deal with him. Because he's just a wild child. Just one of those strong little children who does not take no for an answer. So we had Judah and then we had Josie. She was a surprise. And so we tell people, we're like, you know, it's not that we have this thing all together. It's like it took five children to work out whatever we needed, all the things that we needed to work out. I mean, children are just sanctifying. And our first three were not sanctifying enough. So our last two just really just kind of shine the light on all of our own humanity and depravity and have just forced us to grow as humans. It's so interesting how in life, you know, after we graduate from college and we get married and we head out on this adventure together. And then when children come, how they, for some reason, they have expedited, our three kids have expedited growth for us and also have provided the opportunity, like you had said at the beginning, to either see it as an opportunity to make a choice to grow or be fearful and not. And I wonder if you have any reflection. So you mentioned, and I have so many questions for you now. I can answer questions. I'm really, I'd love to hear more about your perspective of homeschooling your children and being intentional about the types of ways that you and how you see them, like, approach the world. It is so cool to me with my kids are at the age now, the 11 year old and the twins are five and a half that I see them like meet the world for the first time every single day. And I'd love to hear your perspective on that with your children. And the fact that I think that you and Andrew have moved, you move into new places quite often because of his career. Right. Yes. And so the navigating that's really this, like, ever changing environment that perhaps could be parts of your, your daily, your routine. How you, how, how you take those two opportunities and lean into this growth mindset. I'm so, I'd be so curious to hear more. Yeah. So with all the change and, you know, the constant change of having children every day, it's like moment by moment, almost everything is changing. And so one of the things that I really try to do with our kids, especially with the homeschooling, because I can get derailed with life. If we just have little, like rhythms that are constant. And I, it's not about having this rigid schedule. I would prefer to have a rigid schedule because I, I'm an INFJ, I'm a judging. So I like structure and I like A through Z to be outlined. But that's not the case with children. But if you have just a, a few little hooks that answer the question of your children of what comes next. I feel like that really helps stabilize them, especially in seasons of change. And so, for example, those kind of hooks that I use, it's like we, we always have our morning devotions. And I read out loud every night, almost every night. And so, and we eat meals together. I, it's been challenging this season because Adorabella and Janessa are swimming every evening. So like nighttime dinner has been different. But instead of just throwing it all out, I've just shifted it. So it's before some practice, we eat dinner and we sit down. It's just little tiny, just, it's not, it's nothing that you have to create that's like this glamorous rhythm. It's just noticing your daily patterns and kind of sticking with just a few that, you know, we have to eat every day. We have to bathe and we need to exercise. So when you fit those into your daily life and it's like, we always do these things. It just helps bring security to your children and to yourself. Like, it doesn't matter what time of day, because sometimes we sleep in, we don't have like a set wake up time. The kids know they can't come out till seven. Like, I just need a minute. If I wake up early, if I'm awake before them, I know I have at least until seven to get my, to drink my coffee, to meditate for a little while. But it's definitely just finding those patterns of life and using them. So like when we were in the hotel for seven weeks, we made sure we did our devotions in the morning once everybody got up. And then we all get ready for the day. Like, you just get ready for the day. That's what normal people do. So we all do, we get ready. It doesn't matter that we're in a hotel and it doesn't matter that getting ready is putting on your swimsuit. You just get ready for the day. And, you know, eating healthy food as much as possible while you're in the hotel. And exercising, whether it's just a little walk or it happens to be we get to swim in the Pacific Ocean. Like, it's exercise. It's movement. And togetherness. I feel like I have fought for dinner time and I have fought for reading out loud to my children. And I feel like those two things have just really grounded our family. But maybe it's not dinner time. Maybe it's breakfast for another family. But it's like just having that together meal and forcing yourself to sit down and eat instead of eating like this and running around. Like, I could easily do that. It just, it helps calm. It helps bring the calm. It admits all of the change. Yeah, we have moved a lot. I don't even want to count. But we've lived in five different states. So we'll just leave it at that. And you made mention, so you all are now in Hawaii. Is that right? Yes, we're on a walk. Okay, so when you moved in this summer, but you and your five children and your spouse lived in a hotel for seven weeks. Yeah, we did. Thankfully, we had two rooms. So that made it a little bit more doable. Two rooms? Yeah. Right. I mean, what, like, again, I think I'm sure you have amazing stories of that experience. That's probably something as your children will always remember that time. It's probably, it is really fun experience. That's not really like their everyday routine. Right. But I love the reminder that it doesn't have, we don't have to have these, like, grandiose traditions in place to create security and comfort for our families. But they can be the, I like the analogy of little hooks. They can be these, these everyday things that our kids and we can rely on to just ground us in those parts of the day. Even if you're living in a hotel for seven weeks, you know, because I oftentimes will very quickly go to, you know, I want to boil the ocean. You know, like, I want, I want everything to change. I want, I want control, usually, you know, over, you know, I want dinner time to look like this. And I want to be able to read at night. And I want to have the kids take their bath at a certain time and, and, and, and, and, and that usually results in me being frustrated because it's never going to go that way. Right. And so the reminder of just picking up small parts of it to keep in place and not have the time constraint around it, I think, can be, is a nice reminder. It's helpful. I mean, there are definitely seasons where the time, it did, it was constrained by time. Because, you know, when you're nursing babies and there's nap time and there is a bedtime, if you don't put your child to bed, then it's, like, hellacious the next day. You know, that season of life. So I have, like, I have worked backwards. There was a season where the kids, they were like, they still wanted story time, but it was just all getting muddled. I think I had four under six. And Andrew was deployed. And so I sat the kids down. I was like, Mommy wants to read to you at night. But if it's seven o'clock and we're just now getting into the tub, like, Mommy's going to fall asleep at eight o'clock reading to you. So it's not going to happen. So we did have to, like, backwards plan at that point. And I told my kids, I was like, because they were old enough, like, two of them were old enough to brush their teeth and put their pajamas on. And so I told them, I said, OK, if we want stories, you guys need to be ready for bed by 630. Like, you two need to do this because I have the littles in the bathtub. Like, Mommy's hands are tied. Dad's not here. So when I gave them that power of, like, 630, you need to have your teeth and your hair and your pajamas on, it was like magic. And then they were always ready because they wanted it, too. So there are some seasons where there are time constraints, but it's still working with, it's showing them the way, almost. And that is one of our biggest privileges as mothers. Like, we get to model to them how to do this life, how to work through all of the craziness. Because it was a crazy time at that time because Andrew was gone so much. And I was home and stuck. I was nap-trapped, like, nap-trapped. Like, you've got nap time and you've got bedtime. Like, there's like an assortment of children sleeping at some point every single moment. Every single moment. And you're like, what am I, I'm stuck at home. Like, literally stuck at home. Mm-hmm. Well, and I would imagine, you know, I don't want to, like, draw a conclusion, but, I mean, so you also have a unique situation in the fact that your husband leaves for a considerable amount of time, right? Yes. Or has in the past where he's been deployed and not even physically here with you. Mm-hmm. And so navigating, I'd love to hear how you have navigated that particular part in those seasons. I'm not sure if he's, is he with you all right now? Yeah, he's with us right now. But he will be gone next year. Yeah, so, you know, I mean, I think how you ready yourself, you know, for upcoming deployment or how you've reflected back on how you navigate the, like, entry and exit of a house like that. I would, that would, I would be really interested to hear a bit of how you do that. Well, if I started, like, preparing, there's not a lot. It's almost, it's awful. I kind of wish I didn't know he was leaving next year already. I was like, did you have to tell me so soon? Like, now it's just, like, this dark, like, this dark cloud looming. But since we know that it's helped us, like, check off different Hawaii things we want to do before he goes, just so we have those memories made, and we'll make plenty more after he gets home. So it definitely forces you to look forward and to also live in the present a little bit more when you know it's coming. But, I mean, I've learned in the past, I have to have a cleaning lady and I have to make sure I have a babysitter lined up for when he's gone, because I haven't had that before, or in some situations. And I realized it's just, it's just impossible. You can't do it all. Like, you really cannot do it all as a mother or as a single spouse. Like, you just can't, you can't put out all of the fires. So I line up now, since I learned that painfully, that I can't do it all. When I had three kids, I didn't need a cleaning lady. But when I had four and five, I was like, oh, my gosh, I need a cleaning lady. Like, I cannot do this. I've got to take something off my plate. So it's about figuring out what I have to take off my plate before he leaves and making sure I have that lined up. Because if I don't, things just get rolling so fast once he leaves and you get so just like, it just goes. Like, life just keeps going. And if you don't have help lined up, I forget to ask for help. I've gotten better at it, but I will, I'll forget to ask for help and I'll just muscle through it and then we all suffer. But life looks different when daddy's home. Like, we do make sure we have family dinners. And then when he's gone, I don't cook. It's not like I make elaborate meals, but I don't cook the same when he's gone. So things always change because I just need it to be easier for the kids and for me, easier to clean up, easier to prepare. So we make those kinds of adjustments when he's gone. And then the kids always sleep with me when he's gone. But I can't have, I've learned, I can't have someone in my bed every night. So now we rotate. Like, a mama gets a couple nights off in between when he's gone. But again, it all comes back, I was thinking of something as I was speaking. It's like these rhythms of life. Us as mothers, I think we get caught up, you know, there's a story in the Bible about Mary and Martha. And Martha is caught up with the vital work in that moment of that story where she's cooking and she's cleaning. And then she gets mad at Mary because Mary is sitting with Jesus and not doing anything. She's not taking out the trash. She's not cleaning. And as I've gone through life, I've looked at that story in many different ways. But lately, I've looked at that story. It's like, you know, Martha is doing, she's doing the vital work. Like, and we, us moms, we have to do all the vital works. We have, we have to clean our kids. We have to feed our kids. We've got to take them places. Like, all of that has to happen. And I think in that moment, when Jesus was admonishing Martha for not choosing the, quote, right thing. What he was really admonishing her with, like, her heart in her vital work. And I think Mary is the picture of having the right attitude in cleaning up the spilled milk and cleaning up the spilled milk. And cleaning up the smoothie that is now on the carpet or in the car. And Mary has the attitude, although she's not doing the work. And then, but Martha is just in a fury. She's just in a frenzy. And so, what I've learned with Andrew's, like, comings and goings, it's like, at the end of the day, it's all about, it's all about me and my attitude. Like, it's, all this external stuff is just external stuff. It's just, it's just happening. It's just what has to happen. It's just life. But my choice to have inner peace is my choice at the end of the day. And I have to pick up more when he's gone. I have to do more when he's gone. But I also get to choose to have a good attitude about it. And it's not that I do every time. Because Andrew was gone this last week and we kind of all fell apart the last couple days. We all had bad attitudes. We were all complaining about the chores. But even in that, there's a lesson. Because when you lose it as a mom, we have a choice. We can just let it be a moment that we lost it and, like, the ugly feelings sit there and fester. Or we can repair and let our kids know that, you know what? Mommy shouldn't have talked like that. And I'm sorry. Or my attitude is crap right now and I'm sorry. Like, just putting it out there and letting your kids know that you're not, you're not, you're not perfect. Because we're not. We're human, just like them. Right? But that's a hard, that's a hard thing for me to be able to live in and feel okay with sometimes. Because, you know, I've had seasons of life like that. Moments where, you know, Chris has traveled or I feel like I've taken on, you know, more of the work with the kids. The vital work that you talk about. I tend to be like Martha. Like, just fury, you know? I mean, like, I can passively, passive-aggressively clean a dish really well. Right? Me too. In the kitchen. And it's, like, not the dish's fault, you know? And, I mean, because, because I'm human and because I feel like I, you know, I feel like I should have a certain, I should have certain space for myself. Or, you know, it all comes back to this choice that we have. And I was thinking the other day, I had a particularly stressful day and I ended up in the car. Like, kids, it was one of those, I was trying to get everyone to school and no one wanted to put shoes on. You know, like one of those mornings. You're just trying to get out the door and you feel like you're in mud. And I lost it and I yelled at all the kids. And we got in the car and everyone was quiet. And I had that moment of, like, crap, I really, like, I met, like, my first thought was, I'm messing this all up. Like, I'm, I'm messing up my kids. I'm messing up, like, I am a shit mom, you know, like, and, but then I thought, well, like, I'm, I'm, I'm human. So all I, all I knew to do was apologize to start and say, like, I'm sorry I shouldn't have said that. And my son, who's 11, was like, you know what, mom, like, we all have hard days. And we weren't really listening. So, like, I could see why you would be mad at us, you know, or frustrated with us. I said, still, though, you're kids. Like, and so this idea that we have the ability to, I loved how you had said it, the ability to repair. I think oftentimes my pride can get in the way of that sometimes, right? Because I don't want to go back and say I was wrong with my children or with my spouse or in a situation with a friend or a family member. And so it's a good reminder that we have the choice to, thank God, be human and repair. And just, it feels much more just, it's a, it's a refreshing feeling to know I don't have to have a button up all the time. I know. When I first started, like, apologizing and repairing, it was so hard because I could, like, validate, yes, they weren't listening. Like, it was so easy to go, I'm sorry, but you guys were not putting on your shoes. But it's really that there shouldn't be a button when it's a vulnerable and authentic repair. Because we're ultimately in charge of our emotions. And it's so hard. But like you said, where you were starting to, like, beat yourself up and you're, you think you're going to ruin your children. Like, I've had all of those thoughts. And so one thing I come back to is, like, you have to believe when we mess up, we also have to believe that, you know, we were made to be the moms for our kids. Like, they were given to us. And we are the right mom for our children. Like, we are. We are. With all of our mess ups and with all of our humanity, we are the right ones. And God did a good job making us as well as our children. Like, and when you can remember that in those hard moments, I think it makes it easier to repair. I had one of those moments with Judah. Well, it wasn't with Judah, it was everybody. I was yelling at everybody. I go to our homeschool co-op. I was yelling at everybody. And I realized what I was doing and I stopped and I said I was sorry. And I started crying. And then Judah came up to me. I think he was four. And a long time ago, I had started with my kids because they were, like, siblings bickering. I would make them hold each other's faces and say, I like you, I love you just the way you are. Just every morning, just to, like, put that in their heart because, like, I wanted them to love each other. So we had this big blowup morning and I said I was sorry. And then Judah walked up to me and put his hands on my face and said, I like you. I love you just the way you are. And I was like, thank you. And just, like, cue the tears, right? I was sobbing. And I was like, oh, he does realize, he sees it. Like, yeah. And just drawing the connection, I think, when we think about our children in moments like that, where this innocence and this, like, fresh perspective, like, for Judah, like, he came back to that as a reminder of, like, well, that's really, that's the thing that matters. Not that we're related or that we're, you know, I mean, it's refreshing to be in the presence of children. In that regard, because they strip down kind of everything to the most simple terms, usually, which is both refreshing and sometimes can be very humbling, in my opinion. And so, you know, I think it's a good reminder. And especially for women, you know, I have lots of friends, I'm sure you do, too, in this season of life with young children who we, as women, are trying to also, I know I'm trying to kind of still figure out who I am. And I know that's always going to be an evolution. Thank goodness we have the ability to change and grow on a daily basis. I'm so grateful to have that understanding. Now, I didn't understand that before. I thought that when I got to be a certain age, this is just how I was going to be, you know, and that's not the case. But I think for people who are listening, too, who are particularly going through that season of life where they just are feeling like they're beating their head against the wall with their kids in this. What I hear from your experiences is the amount of grace that you try to seek for yourself and for your children and your spouse every day. And I don't know if you have other reflections or suggestions or thoughts on how people can provide that space for themselves. Yeah, so I don't mess it up. I did write something down. So like we were talking about how, you know, you have to, I think when, so I've had this question before because moms see me and they're like, oh, my gosh, you have five kids and you look like you're sane and you're so calm. And so it's like it's those moms who are in the thick of it. And I've been really thinking about it lately because a lot of moms have asked me, like, how do you do it? How do you do it? Obviously, like we've talked about growing, like you just need to be constantly growing and believe. But first, it's believing that you're the right mom. Believe in something. Believe that your children are the right children. You have to believe in yourself. And then the next thing is make sure you're following some sort of plan or purpose or mentor or bigger picture. Like when you're, I was struggling with, you know, yelling at my children. So I found these other moms who had struggled with that and I learned from their experiences. So having a podcast that you go to or some sort of literary mentor that you run to, some sort of book or even real people. But as an introvert, I tend to go towards the podcast and the book because I'm with five children every day. I don't want to talk anymore. Like I don't need, I don't need people interaction. But some people do. So maybe you need, you need a mentor. And then, yeah, like we talked about, it's repairing all the time. Just openly repair with your children. It's so vital just to teach them that it's okay to mess up because that's part of growth. Like you don't get, you don't win the race on your first try, typically, unless you're a prodigy. Like, you know, normal people, we don't win the marathon the first time we set out to run a marathon. So you have to repair. You have to grow. You have to, you just have to be vulnerable with your kids because they are. And we got to get in on that vulnerability. But, yeah, for those moms who are just like drowning, because that's how I felt for so long, it's, I don't, I never want to say, you know, it's going to get better because it just changes because now I have a teenager. I, I always cringe when moms say, or when like older moms will say like, oh, don't wish it away because you're going to want these moments back. It's like, no, I'm gagging right now. Like, I'm choking on today. I don't want this moment back. Right. This moment can get in the river and pass on down. Right. Yeah. But sometimes the growth is just learning to be kind to yourself, which ties into just modeling right living with your children and healthy behaviors. And that's our biggest charge. Like we're walking this life out in front of them. Dads are just as important. But I really feel like moms have this unique position since we're the emotional conduit with our children. Like our right living and our behaviors in front of them are so crucial because we're teaching them. We're giving them intelligence. We're instructing them. We're imparting knowledge to them every day. And we're disciplining them, not in like reprimanding discipline, but we're preparing them in the disciplines of life. Like, it's, you know, we just went to see the Pearl Harbor Memorial and I love the riveting, the riveters. You know, we can do it. But some days I just want to, I want to like twist that poster and say, you know, we can't do it. Like we can't. We can't do it all without taking care of ourselves. Like we can't. That was for a certain season. Like we needed those women to do it. But as moms, when you're walking out this daily life with your kids, you need to know that you can't do it. And you need to take care of yourself in front of your children because that's how they learn how to take care of themselves. So. And it's all I think for sharing that. And the reflection of so many different parts that in the particular season, I think of women who are kind of in the drowning. I mean, that's it. It is both equally wonderful and like relieving to hear someone say that. And it's also incredibly tragic to think that we approach this season of motherhood and of life as feeling like we're drowning. But that is that's how a lot of us feel. Right. And so, you know, so this. This idea of being able to simultaneously ready our children for the world, which is the coolest responsibility to have as a mom, I've learned. I actually looked at my husband the other night and said, do you understand? Like, we are responsible for helping them meet the world on a daily basis. Like, how cool is that? And terrifying and amazing. Right. I mean, I say like life is just tragically beautiful, you know. And so, you know, if we think about that and how we we as women, particularly, like you said, are situated to do that on a daily basis. How have you been able to find the time to truly take care of yourself? And, you know, outside of the you know, when people talk, we've talked on this podcast before, and I know I've talked to other women about self-care. And how, you know, like a pedicure is nice or a bubble bath is nice. But like the real work, like you said, to feel joy, you've probably had to put a decent amount of work into being able to access. Do you have any reflection on what that looks like for you in different seasons of your life? Well, it's funny you ask that because now I'm remembering a book I read. I read the book by Dr. Sandra Dalton Smith, I think is her name. It's called Sacred Rest. And for a long time, I was struggling with figuring out rest. And so, yes, I thought it's a bubble bath or it's a pedicure. I need to go out and go shopping or I need to do all those almost like consumer things. Right. But I had to figure out what type of rest I was missing. And she talks about all the different types of rest we actually need. Now, I'm not going to remember them all. But a lot of times the type of rest that I need is just introspective rest. So like if I'm struggling and having a hard time, then I do make an effort to make sure I get up early and journal because that's what gives me rest. Or I, we've done a lot of, I always have quiet time in my house. So everyone goes to their rooms and takes a chill pill. And it's mostly peaceful. It's not always peaceful. So maybe I can feel, on a good day, I can get 60 minutes. On a not good day, I only get 10. But sometimes in the afternoon, there's been seasons where it's like I have to stop in the middle of the afternoon and take a breather. Like I have to go meditate. I have to go listen to something that calms me down and brings my breath back. But it really is, as moms, we have to identify the true type of rest. And I would strongly recommend any mom reading her book or listening to it because there's so many different types of rest. And it kind of correlates with your personality almost, I would argue. Because sometimes you do need social interaction to rest. Like sometimes we need to go sit and have coffee with a friend. And that fills your cup. But sometimes we don't. Sometimes we just need to go sit by some water and just listen to the water and be completely still. So I think a lot of my struggle in the beginning with kids and fighting for solitude and self-care, because it's so hard with kids, was identifying what I really needed. And her book really helped me. So when I'm feeling frenzied and I am like getting too close to tears at every negative interaction, that's when I know I need to fight for some introspective time because that's what nourishes my soul. But every mom is different. So, but again, like we've said so many times, it's like all of these good things are taught almost by the negative. Like, you know, I didn't realize I was so, I knew I was introverted, but I also didn't know I was highly sensitive until COVID happened. Because I was like, our small little bits of like where my kids were not in my constant care were taken away. And then I realized, oh my gosh, I can't have them at home all day, every day. Like I really cannot. Because I discovered I'm highly sensitive. Like all the smells, all the noise overstimulates me. And that's when I discovered earplugs. I wear earplugs a lot. Yeah. I mean, to filter the noise. Right. It's amazing what, what, what life experiences, how, how we can get to understanding for, in your example, understanding the type of rest we may need only by way of going through a situation of not knowing, you know, of, you have to sort of, it's like you get it in hindsight, like, it's like the 2020 big idea, you know, that, that sometimes it does take. You know, my, my mom has told me before, in particularly dark seasons of my life, that sometimes you have to lose yourself to find yourself. And I did not particularly enjoy that piece of advice at the time because it felt so scary. Like, well, what do you mean? I know myself just as, just as well as I do. And, but I have found it to be true that in order for me to access these more vulnerable, authentic, real parts of me, I've had to lose them, lose the thought of what they were. And so I appreciate your perspective on that and of sharing vulnerably about the fact that we, you have sat in the drowning parts of motherhood. Because I think our society, we started at the beginning about Instagram and social media, how they show all the highlight reels of things, and that is not necessarily the case all the time. And so how can we strip that away as women to be able to enter into conversations that feel more like this, that you're just trying to sort it out? You know, I love that perspective. Well, it reminds me of something my husband and I have been talking about lately, because obviously with deployments to war, I mean, PTSD is a real thing. So he's been working through all of his stuff. And one thing we keep coming back to, and what I told him recently, and it really helped him, it's like, we cannot know the light without the darkness. And you can't let the light in unless you let the darkness out. And he's had some hard things that he's been through, and there's been some guys who've committed suicide that he knew, and he's like, I just wish they would have asked for help. And I think sometimes we're so scared as people to let others know that there's darkness that we're sitting in. But when you do that, the light can come in, no matter what it is, whether it's just, not just, whether it's the mom who's just like yelling at her kids, and she wishes she could stop. If she could just have one close friend that she could tell that to, it would let the light in. It makes room for the growth, and it makes room for the good things to come in when we just let it come out. But it's hard, and we need safe places, and you have to have safe people. But nine times out of ten, it's like when you're talking to my husband about the hard situations he's been in, he's like, none of us are going to judge any of these guys. Like, we're not going to judge any of them. He's like, we're not. No one's going to judge them. And none of us moms are really judging one another. We're all struggling. We're all having a hard time. I mean, not that we're all struggling. I don't mean that in like a, gosh, I don't know what kind of, you know, it's just hard. Life is hard, and it takes work. I think that's what we, you know, we think it's all just going to come together, and it just doesn't. It takes effort. We have to work. But yeah, we have to let others know about the darkness, whatever it is. Whether it's, you know, something as devastating as, you know, PTSD issues and for like soldiers and husbands who've been in combat, or it's just the moms who are trying to hold down the fort. Like, yeah, healing comes from sharing. And the process is the same, which is the most beautiful part of it all, that the human race can share that, that, you know, it can be as simple to start as saying, I need help, or I'm really scared, or I don't know what to do. And I love the analogy of letting dark out to let light in. You know, the idea that immediately when you open up that door, I mean, think about it. If you think about the analogy of sitting in a dark room and you open the door, light floods in quickly. It always comes in. It always comes in. The darkness just kind of disappears. It dissipates, you know, all around you. And so I love that reminder. I appreciate it. And I'm always surprised, and I shouldn't be, that other women think about it that way, too. You know, and that we sit in conversation with people and think about how we can take care of ourselves. And it is, life is a beautiful struggle. Like, it's just because it's real. And we don't just, joy just doesn't usually just like knock on the door and be like, I'm here with all my bags. You know, like, usually it comes with other stuff, you know. I mean, you have to live, if you want the joy, you've got to live with all the other things. And I am still on a daily basis learning that, that in order for me to access things like joy or peace or just a little bit more of a gentle life, there's all this other stuff that I get to have to be a part of, too. And to model that for our children, I think, is a really cool experience. And it sounds like something that you and Andrew are doing a pretty good job of out there in Hawaii. I know. The funny thing about moving to Hawaii, my husband thought, he had this thought, he's like, everything's just going to be so great once we get there. And it was so hard. And it was so hard. And I think that really helped him, like, catapult in dealing with more of his PTSD issues. And it's been really beneficial. But it's like, just because we're on a paradise island doesn't remove the fact that we still had to, like, find a house. And we looked at 15 different houses. And it's like a rat race when you're here. And there were tears and there was stress and money stress. Because, yeah, we didn't have our government travel card. And we had to put it all on our credit card. And I'm not going to tell you how much it cost you to move. I can't only imagine with all your little babes in tow, right? I know. That was a miracle. I mean, what a good reminder, though. Like, you moved to one of the most, you know, arguably one of the most beautiful places in the world. And guess what? Everywhere you go, there you are. And so you're going to bring your whole life with you, you know? You know, you just get the beautiful backdrop of the Pacific Ocean to be able to experience life now, you know? Yeah, and the mountains. We were still yelling at our kids. We had to apologize. Like, it was still life. Yeah. It didn't magically go away. No, what? Come on. My husband was convinced. He was convinced. Right. We usually, we always close our episodes by asking the question to guests of, if you were to have a conversation with your younger self, like, if you were to have a conversation with younger Olivia, what would you tell her? What would I tell her? Oh, my goodness. I would tell her so many things. I would tell her so many things. I would tell her that change is okay and that, you know, like what we've talked about so many times, you cannot have, you just, you cannot reap without work. And sometimes you're going to sit in the dirt because seeds are planted in the dirt and it's going to be messy and it's going to be ugly and it's going to be dark. But as long as you do the work, you know, you tend to the garden, soon enough that seed will sprout and then there'll be a plant growing and there'll be life growing. But life doesn't come without that darkness and without the mess. And it's, like you have said, it's beautiful and it's messy and it's tragic. It's tragically beautiful. Like there's death in growth. I mean, there's growth in death. Like the seed dies and falls apart. But there's always a blossom. Mm-hmm. There's always a blossom. There's always a blossom. It's such a good, it's such a good reflection and something that I know that I, again, have the choice on a daily basis to be able to remember. And if I get stuck in the middle of the day, you know, that life's not really linear. You know, like if I get stuck in the middle of the day, I have a choice to be able to take a moment and reset myself. Just because I set out on a path at 8 a.m. doesn't mean I need to be on that same path at noon. And so, you know, providing that perspective to give ourselves some space to be able to pivot and modify and change and grow and reach out for help are really good reminders, especially in the seasons of life. I think that you and I are living in right now, which is just the beautiful chaos of being a mother with young children. And the added layer and complexity of moving all over the world for you, you know, I think is really special. And I really am so grateful that we were able to spend some time to talk about this today. It means a lot that you are willing to be vulnerable and share your life with me and with people who listen. Yeah. Well, you're welcome. It's my privilege. And I'm so honored that you asked me to speak with you. Thank you. So, if folks want to, you know, we often will share that if people are interested in learning more about you or what you're doing with your family. I know you said you're on social media. Are there other posts or Instagram people that you like to follow that you want to share with people if they want to find some of the resources that you tend to look to? Oh, I have lots of lists. Now I have to think. There's lots of podcasts that I listen to. One or an app that I would strongly recommend to any mother. You have to pay for it, but it was worth every penny. Mama Zen is an app. I don't know if you've heard of that. Have you heard of that one? I haven't. It's amazing. It's a hypnotherapist and it's just meditations. It's really helpful. And then we talked about Sandra Dolphin Smith. She's on Instagram, I think, with her book. And Mom to Mom podcast is amazing. Resources for when you're drowning. They have amazing podcasts. And Calming Anxiety is a great podcast. Oh, you put me on the spot and now I have to think of all the resources. I have lists. Well, you can share them with me. Yeah, it's always good. I always listen to stuff like this and hear people talk about how they're navigating life and the places, the plans. You mentioned having a plan or a mentor or following the guidance of people. I mean, life is a big copy-paste for me. Many of my thoughts aren't original and I'm grateful for that. They have been passed down to me. But then I listen to that and I think, oh, man, where do I go? What do I do next? So thanks for sharing some of those. I'll make sure to put them in the episode notes and then we can talk about them. You can share with some of me or some of them later, too, and we'll put them in the post. So thank you again for coming on. It means a lot. Folks who are listening can find this episode and all of our episodes on a little Happy Podcast Instagram page. And you can listen to this episode and previous episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, anywhere you can catch a podcast. And so we appreciate all of the support. If you feel like you can leave a review, we hope that you do that as well. Until next week, we hope that you find the type of rest that is most meaningful to you in this particular season of your life. Choose repair on a daily basis to hold some space for yourself and for the people that you love. Be kind and please be gentle with yourself. And we hope that you find a little happy along the way. We'll chat again soon.