navroop_yspn, jason _ feb 14, 2024 001_riverside

Jason Sanger is a former Australian Under-19 World Cup captain and former Sydney Thunder captain. He now plays for the New South Wales Blues and the Sydney Thunder. He is also into property development and is learning to play the piano. Jason talks about the challenges of transitioning from cricket being a hobby to a full-time job, and how he had support from senior players who helped him feel part of the team. All right. Hello guys. Welcome. Good afternoon. Good morning, wherever you're hearing from. It's a very hot day in Sydney today and luckily we're joined by a very, very good guest, a very fantastic guest for that matter. I'm a fan of him but let's get to understand him as a person. He was the former Australian Under-19 World Cup captain, former Sydney Thunder captain. He played against the likes of Shubman, Gill and Prithvi Shaw. He is now playing for the New South Wales Blues as well as the Sydney Thunder. Please welcome me in welcoming Jason Sanger. How are you, mate? Very well, thank you. How are you doing? Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad. You keeping cool with all the heat around? Keeping the fans on. It's a hot day in Sydney which is good but yeah, I actually wouldn't mind some rain just for once. Maybe not on a cricket day though. Oh, 100%. Yeah. If no one wants to see rain on a cricket field, that's for sure but before we get stuck into what we want to talk about today, I just want to extend a gratitude from YSPN and everything that we represent and everything that you're a part of for joining us today. It's a very hot day today and luckily we got him in the evening so it's good to see you here. A little bit of background about Jason, so he started out in Sydney living in the eastern suburbs and then before moving to Newcastle for cricket and that's where he really made his career, made his mark, was able to receive a professional contract for the New South Wales at only the age of 16 and he came back to Sydney to finish his year 12 and now this is where he's based. He's playing for the domestic teams here as well as the state team here so he's one of our own, that's for sure and we're keen to learn a little bit about him. Is there anything you want to say before we kick off? It's a very nice introduction so no, it's looking good. Oh mate, I'm a person worthy of it, what can I say? Anyways, what I want to understand about you Jason, you've obviously done a few things with YSPN and already talked about your professional career and the development that you've gone through there but let's get to understand you as a bit of a person, what are your hobbies and interests kind of outside of your professional kind of stuff? Obviously cricket for me is a hobby but that's because I haven't been good enough at it to be professional at it but do you have any hobbies or passions outside of cricket that have added some depth into your life and those sorts of things? Yeah, it's a good question. I'm really not great at a lot of things outside of cricket. I tend to stick with what I'm okay at and if I'm not good at something, I kind of quit it. No, look, definitely one thing I do away from cricket is I'm really into my property, really into my property in the States. Yeah, a bit of a part-time property developer on the side and yeah, sort of me and my family have been really interested in this space for a long time so sort of picked it up at a young age and it's amazing, you sort of always follow, I guess for me, you always sort of follow your dad's footsteps or the family sort of does and I think I sort of followed in his footsteps a little bit there and got myself into a bit of a property game which is nice, which is cool, it's good, it's a much better way to spend money. But yeah, it is cricket full-time, it's pretty demanding, it's a pretty full-on season but look, any time you can get away, whether it's playing a bit of property, I'm actually learning how to play piano, that's one thing. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, learning how to play piano. How long has that been going for then? It's only been a month. It's only been a month so it'll be, it'll sort of pass by the New Year's resolution I think, for 2024. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hopefully I'll get a few weddings coming up, a couple of mates getting married so who knows, there's a piano there, I want to be able to perform maybe a song at a wedding which is a big step, I'm not going to be able to play anything. No, that's huge, that's huge, yeah. Yeah, we'll see how it goes. I've heard that, yeah. It's obviously in its infancy right now but these things, like you get so good at them so quickly especially and to be able to play in front of a crowd, like you know, sooner rather than later, that's fantastic. The next thing I sort of want to ask on that is, you mentioned that your dad's been in property for a while and obviously the passion for it is just kind of, it's just shown to you from a young age. When did cricket kind of become kind of like a full-time thing for you? When did you realise that this is probably not the direction I'm going to go, I'm probably going to go with cricket? Well, I didn't really know until I got signed. You know, you're a 15, 16-year-old kid, you're just sort of going about year 10 and just you know, trying to do well in school and have some fun and yeah, cricket was sort of, like you said, it was more of a hobby. It wasn't a hobby but it was something I wanted to do but it was something I didn't think was going to come as quickly as it did so, you know, to be blessed at a young age to get the opportunity to play cricket. Yeah, the perks of it was, you know, the fact that I got to like have my dream job whilst I was still at school. I guess the downside was it was almost a job now, it wasn't actually something that like, not that it was something that I shouldn't not enjoy anymore but it went from something I just loved playing to now like, oh, this is actually my job and I'm actually going to get like, you know, performance reviews of like how I'm going rather than just, you know, having fun. So, obviously the value is sort of saying the same, you want to have fun in what you're doing but that was a bit more of a trippy point in my career, having to switch from being like, I'm playing this because I love the game so I'm playing this because this is what's giving me, this is what's bringing me around the table. No, no, that's really nice to hear but do you think that at all that the passion that you had for cricket, obviously playing as a young kid and doing well in it especially, it kind of took away from the passion a little bit that it did become kind of a professional career and like you said that you are getting kind of rated on it based on your performances rather than just going out there and just having fun? Yeah, for sure. I mean like, I guess with that kind of expectation as well, like it's very rare that a 16-year-old gets signed professionally so I think there was always a bit of social approval that I needed to sort of, you know, get through and it wasn't so much in the public, it was more due to my teammates, you know, guys like this 16-year-old kid from Newcastle just, you know, going to be playing with us. Yeah. It's weird, right? And if I see 16, 15, 16-year-old kids now, they would come straight into the pro spot. Even I would be like, what the hell? Like, are you that good? Yeah. I guess I don't blame them for probably being the way they were at the start but, you know, obviously there were some good people in and amongst that and yeah, it was challenging. It was more about rather than just playing for the fun of the game, it was more having to play, at least earlier in my career, it was having to play. It was a point to prove, to showcase that I'm still good enough to be at this level and to play and yeah, luckily I found my feet in the end but just like anything, I think when you start your first job, it's always going to be a bit daunting day one, day two and you just got to try and find a way and make a few friends and do your job well and no one really complains. No, no. That makes sense. That makes sense. Was there anyone in particular that instead of actually looking at you like, oh, here is a fun player, look at him, young guy, oh, he's the best in the world, he's got the world at his feet. Is there anyone actually that kind of went on the other side of that and although the banter is the banter, but kind of put their arm around you and said that, you know what, everything's going to be alright, just listen to me and you know you're going to be in a very good place? Yeah, there was definitely a few. I mean, the ones I think I can remember the most is someone like Moses Henriques who plays for the Sixers and Nick Larkin who's played a bit for New South Wales and played for Melbourne Stars at the moment. Those two guys, for sure. And then I was quite lucky in and around that, you know, when I just got signed, growing to say, and it was still at New South Wales at the time before he went to Tassie in Queensland. So, I had someone like Brown as well, sort of had his arm around me a little bit more and so I had those two guys that were good, you know, I could sort of bounce ideas off and they were young and I think what resonated why I got close to them was they had a bit of a similar journey, you know, getting signed at a young age, coming into the big league. So, it was like, and I'm the exact same now, like anytime one of the rookies or one of the young guys comes to the sport for the first time, you know, I'll make sure that I put my arm around them and make them feel part of the group as much as they can because yeah, I know exactly how I felt when I was, you know, 16 coming in. It was daunting. I can remember a year before I got signed, you know, I was at Big Bash Games sort of having my, like, mini autographed bat out of the sun to try and get some of the boys to sign my bat and all I knew was having my shirt over the fence to be like, can you guys sign my shirt? And then a year later I was in the same sport as them. So, it was definitely weird. It was daunting in that fact but, you know, we got a couple of guys, a couple of senior players as well who put your arm around you and make you feel part of the group. No, that's good. That's good. And then probably my next question leads to when you're around these big, big personalities, like you say, these guys have been playing Big Bash for a very long time, they've been on the big screen for a while. We go watch them live as well. Is it very similar to how they are portrayed in the media that how they are in person as well? Yeah, absolutely. It's funny because I think people are quick to judge someone's personality based off competitions like in the midst of battle, like it's, you know, it's a tough one because when you're playing, if you were to see Virat Kohli for the first time and you're only seeing him judging off how he plays, you'd be like, this guy's like, he's too angry. Like, this guy's in people's faces, he's not a nice person, like he's slandering these people, he's calling them all these words. You'd think he's a terrible person if you just purely based him off like how he plays. And then, you know, you get to meet him off the field or you hear people talk about him off the field and you think, oh, he's a legend. Like, he's such a good bloke, he's always got time for people. Like, that's a completely different person to what you see when you verse him, like in the middle of battle. So, yeah, I mean, the good thing is, you know, like, it's hard. You can't always judge someone on face value and sometimes, you know, even myself, like, you know, it's important how you come across the table and especially when it comes to the media as well because unfortunately, you might only have 20 to 40 seconds to, you know, showcase who you are as a person and people could judge and be like, oh, he's a good bloke or he's not a good bloke in 20 or 40 seconds just from a couple of questions. So, it's hard but, yeah, you've got to be true to yourself and I was lucky, like, guys like Moses and Nick and those guys, you know, they're authentic and they're true to themselves and, yeah, they're good people to have around. No, that's great to hear and probably whilst you're talking about Koli, obviously, for many, especially that belong to the Indian diaspora, he is very much an idol, a legend in every aspect when it comes to the game of cricket. When it comes to the game of cricket, who were your kind of idols growing up? Were they Australian? Were they Indian? Where were they from and those sorts of things? Yeah. Yeah, I had a few. I mean, I used to always like, you know, I used to always like Adam Gilchrist. He was the reason I got into cricket. Adam Gilchrist, it was more the Australian side to start because Australia was playing England in a test series in Australia. And that's sort of why I started to watch in guys like Brett Lee and Adam Gilchrist, Shane Warne, Matthew Hayden, wanting that like era of cricket, like, you know, growing up. And now, the young kids coming through now, they're getting exposed to the Smiths, the Mourners, the Barnets, the Cummins, Stark, those guys. So, yeah, look, it's, for me, like, that era was like nostalgic. It's like, oh, that's just like that 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 era. It was like, cool. It was exciting. And for me, it was that Australian thing there. And then, as, you know, more teams came over to Australia to versus them, you know, you got exposed to some more Indian players, Southampton players, England. Actually, no one likes England. You're from Australia. It's always been nice to make England rivalry. That's a fact, yeah. So, there was no English players, unfortunately. These days, I love Joe Root. Joe Root's one of my favourite players. Very much so, yeah. Yeah. But most of that Australian team in, like, that 2007, 2008 era was, yeah. Great question. No, yeah, it was a very dominant era, that one. It's an interesting one, because I've got a few mates that play cricket, and who were big fans of Adam Gilchrist, but they're all lefties, and I see that you're a right-hander. Yeah, I tried to be lefty. I tried to be a keeper as well. It just didn't quite work out. Oh, yeah, you had a stunning stint at keeping as well. I tried to. I wanted to be, like, Gillies, but then when I bowled, I wanted to be, like, Brent Lee, and then I wanted to be Shane Moore as well. So, I wanted to be everyone. So, it was hard. Oh, yeah. Which one was the better line-up? Which was the better? I think when you have that many personalities, and very different personalities as well in one team, that are so dominant over such a long period of time, it's very hard to pick who you want to be like. It's every day you wake up thinking, I want to be like this person, I want to be like that person. So, no, that's definitely... Yeah, I think, again, my approach was a bit of a hard time, because I come to one training session, I want to be better, and the next training session, I want to be a fast bowler. So, it was just whoever was playing ball that day, I wanted to be that person. No, that's funny. When did you kind of realise that you were, like, this game of cricket, hang on a sec, I'm actually quite good at it. This is something that, not necessarily might be a full-time thing, but this is something where I'm really good at this. Yeah. Oh, good question. Probably when I was about 14, I always realised I was pretty good at it, and it was something I wanted to give a crack at. It didn't mean, like, play for the Shrouders. Obviously, it was every kid's dream when you're that age, but it was probably then I thought, you know, with a couple of good performances, and I was playing some representative staff and had a little bit of taste of some of this stuff, I was kind of like, oh, okay, I'm in the mix here with some really good people that are my age, and, yeah, I'll keep giving it a crack. And then, I think when I was 16, obviously, with that contract, that's when I knew, okay, well, like, this is a job now, this is what I want to do. So, I obviously wanted that to happen, and a Barney special was going to come that early, so, yeah, from the period of being 14 to be like, oh, I think I'm pretty good at this, like, I'll give it a crack, and then to 16, two years later, to be like, here's a pro deal, I was like, oh, wow, that's a big two years. Yeah. And oftentimes, we do see a lot of people that they do get a lot of success when they are very young, but it's very hard for them to stay kind of grounded in their values and stay on that same kind of methodology that got them to that point to actually go and kick on. I see you as someone that has definitely kept his mind very grounded and kept yourself very well-rounded. How have you kind of done that despite that very early success? And this Cricket Info article is being written about you by Ian Chappell. You've got a cricket legend saying that you might be, you know, the next big thing, the next Australian captain, perhaps, and then obviously captaining other teams, and obviously domestic franchise teams as well. So, how do you kind of keep yourself in that headspace that this is still very much a journey that I am on? Yeah, it's good. I definitely don't try and tell people I like to be humble. I just try and go about my business. I think it probably stems from my parents a little bit. You know, they're obviously very supportive, and they sense when they think my head seems too big. And my dad's a great role model for everyone in our community, and me and my sister as well. Like, you know, he's always been so level-headed for so long, and he's, you know, just consistently been the same person. Like, a bad day or a good day, you just never get to tell, and I think that's something that me and my sister have always really, you know, appreciated about him. He's just always been nice and calm, and he's always the same person at home, which is important, and I think that's a big thing. And I've got some funny mates as well. Like, as soon as I talk a little bit smack, they're ready to pull me in. So, yeah, I can't ever get too far in front of me, but I guess one thing I've always tried to live by is just never be too high and never be too low. Just try and find a nice little part in the middle and stay in there for as long as you can. So, yeah, that's just kind of the way I try and go about things. In all assets, like, not just life, but in cricket as well. Like, you're never going as bad as you think you are. You're never going as good as you think you are as well. You're just doing... Yeah, just, yeah, that's exactly right. And there's, like, quotes out there, you're either in a bad time or on your way to a bad time. And it's really how you cope with your headspace in those moments that kind of gets you through those difficult times. And probably that next question leads me on, like, any professional career, especially in that sports arena, with a career like cricket that is so stats-heavy, stats-based, it's very easy to see someone's poor performances just through the numbers. How would you kind of... Just talk to me about how would you kind of go about having a run of bad performances perhaps, being low on confidence perhaps, and, you know, sort of being under the pump by all your surroundings? Because obviously now the expectations are a lot higher, the level is a lot greater. How do you kind of get out of those periods? Like you said, you try not to get yourself too down. How do you kind of go about that though? Yes, it's a good question. It's something... I mean, it's a lot easier said than done. I guess for me, like, you know, the most important thing is, you know... Oh, I mean, it just... It always does turn around. Like, I've never encountered a problem where, you know, if you don't... If you keep working hard and you keep trying to pursue your goals and you try to get better every single day, but, like, it just doesn't... It does not, like, work out. You know, it always has... There's always getting things on the road. There's always going to be a run of, like, performances or a bad time in your life. But they just never last. You know, it always ends. And for me, like, I don't know. I've always been someone... It's hard because cricket is so statistical-based. Like, it really does depend. If you have the best week of your life in training and you're just hitting the ball so well or you're bowling the ball so well and then just for some reason, just on that Saturday, it just doesn't work out. Like, it's so hard for them to go back again and go, OK, it's all right, I'll go next week and do the same thing. Come back the following Saturday and it happens again. You're out again. You've had two scores with two low performances. It's just like... And it's tough, I think. It's just like, oh, man, how am I ever going to score around here? Like, it just feels dark and lonely. It sucks. But I think the most important thing, and it's something I've tried to do, is I've just tried to really just base myself on, like, you know, just trying to get better. Like, in my understanding, there's always going to be a straight line. It's going to be ups and downs. And recognising maybe when times are a little bit in the downside and understanding that, like, the only thing I can do is just come back the next day. And the biggest thing I've always learned is it doesn't matter if you have a great day or a bad day. You just have to wake up the next morning and just do it again. You just have to do it again. The journey just doesn't end. And it's so true. Like, when you're playing well and everything's going well and you've scored so many runs, it's like, you just want to wake up the next day and do the journey all over again. You've got to wake up early, you've got to go to the gym, you've got to get your hitting down, you've got to bowl balls. And if you don't have a great day, the same thing happens the following Monday. It just always happens again. You've just got to try and find a way to enjoy that journey. And understand that, like, tough times don't last and tough people do. You've got to take your tongue out at the end of that one. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, no, no. That's really solid. Like, you've mentioned there that there's days where you just don't want to get out of bed, you don't want to hit the gym, you don't want to do nothing that day. What gets you out of bed then? Like, what is it in that moment where you're in bed stuck? Is it something intrinsic? Is it something external, extrinsic? Like, what motivates you then? Good question. I'll show you something on my phone. It's a very basic question. No, no, it's pretty basic. I'll show you something on my phone. So, what I've got on my phone is on my reminders list. So, I've got, like, I'll explain it to you. So, I've got workout one, gym, workout two, cardio. And I've got batting one, my first batting workout, bowling, minimum 30 balls, meditate and pray, like in the same one. And I've got piano and books. I've mentioned I'm starting to get piano. So, these are my daily reminders I have on my phone every day. And I make sure every morning. Every day, I just got to get it done. I hate not seeing them done. So, that's why every morning when I wake up at 6am, they all go off. And it's about how many of them can I kick off for the day. So, I'm pretty competitive. So, like, when I do see it not, like, kicked off, I'm a bit like, oh, I've still got to get it done. That's one thing. That just can be, like, honest. And I think the other thing as well is, like, I don't know. I just know there's someone else out there that's going to be doing training. And if it's good enough for them, it's going to be good enough for me. So, like, I just feel like, yeah, like, there is just no secret. Like, it doesn't matter in what part of life it is, whether it's work, whether it's cricket, or it's just anything in life. Like, I just feel like, me personally, and it's come from my parents as well, who were proper hustlers. They worked their ring off every day. And it's just like, you just don't get what you want when you don't do it. So, here's another good quote for you, actually. It's one by Chris Willis, Chris Williamson, Chris Willis. And it goes, is it something like the magic you're after isn't the work you're avoiding? Something like that. Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And it's interesting the way that you have that. I'm going to find out exactly what it is. There's someone like that, and it's just stuck with me. So, that's the way it is. The work doesn't get, unfortunately, yeah, the work doesn't get done itself. You've got to go out and do the work. But the reminders are a good one. That's just one way I get myself accountable. And obviously, my bedroom, I've got like a couple of, actually, one of my friends has got, in his room, he's got like a mirror wardrobe. And on there, he's got like whiteboard markings of like things to get done, where I want to be in like, when I want to be next month. Like, it's always like month driven, like December, January, February. And the last one is like, Jim, I think Jim, I think it's friends, and then it's like work. I can't remember. And he just ticks off every day, like, Jim, saw one of my friends, and like did something with his work. And that's why I got the idea. I was like, oh, cool. I might fill that. So, that's one idea. But there's plenty of these out there. No, no, that's a great one, because it's really important how you talk about that, how it's important to have your daily goals, because not only is waking up difficult within itself to try completing your goals, but that sleep is so much better once you know you've ticked off all the things that were required to be ticked off, whether it be rain, hail, sunshine, whatever it might be. So, no, that's definitely interesting. And I think a lot of people can fall into the trap of setting really massive goals for themselves. There's a quote that you overestimate what you can do in one year, but you underestimate what you can do in three years. But that's based on doing everything every day on that consistent level. You can be a completely different human being after an extended period of time if you're doing things very well in that short term. So, I think that's great. And there's a lot of gems there to take home for anybody. And no matter what they're doing, whether it's a professional corporate career or it's a professional sports career or just in their daily routines, whether it be sometimes people might want to even have their chores in their make-your-bed-in-the-morning. That's one task you can easily finish for absolutely anyone. And that kind of takes me to what I wanted to discuss next. You've given me all these gems. You've given us all all these fantastic tips and told us your story. What are some key values, key lessons that you've learned throughout your career journey? Not just from your parents, perhaps, or from professionals around you or from anyone, a coach, a mentor, perhaps, that have not only shaped your approach but that you'd actually tell a youngster or tell someone coming into this field or tell anyone trying to do anything that they're passionate about? Yeah, it's a good one. I mean, there's probably a quote that I've said today and that's sort of shaped a little bit of the way I try and live my life. But I guess one of the big lessons, I don't know, I think maybe it sort of came from my parents. And it wasn't really something they said. It was more something they did and what they continue to do. And it's like they're hardworking people. They work tough. They work hard. And they give an opportunity for me and my sister. And I think you probably learn that at the end a bit older when you're a bit younger. You probably take it for granted a little bit when you start to get older and you're going to live by yourself and you're going to realize, oh, this is actually a bit harder than you think. You know, it's important to understand that, you know, yeah, for me, I guess for any youngster, especially in the cricket world, but any youngster coming through, there is just no secret. There is never, ever a secret to where you end up. Where you want to get to. It's just by working hard. Like working your butt off. Like it's just all in the work. We're going to put in the time. We're going to put in the effort. And you just never get better at something doing less of it. So there's another quote. I'm full of quotes. Yeah. If you go on my Instagram and not my Instagram. I go on my Instagram. I go on the Save Tasks. They're all just quotes. Yeah. They're all just quotes. Quotes are great. Quotes are great. Like they genuinely, like I'll be at 2 a.m. at night doing absolutely nothing. Bummed out to get to that point. I'll see a couple of quotes and I'll think tomorrow is the day my life changes. Tomorrow is the day that I'm going to do this, this and this. And you're sending like the next 10 years of gold with like one quote. So quotes go a long way. Quotes go a long way. A hundred percent. And it's clever. Instagram algorithms, they keep showing me pre ones and Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. I'm always like, let's go. Yeah. But yeah, that's really, that's I guess one of the biggest lessons. And as I've said to you before, like never getting too high and never getting too low. Like things are never as bad or as good as they seem. And I guess, I guess the main like just understanding that like, you know, it's just a journey and you've just got to take each day for as it comes. And that's why with those reminders, it's like, it doesn't matter how good the day was yesterday. It's like, I'm going to do this journey all over again today. And tomorrow, it's like, I had a really good day today. But like tomorrow, I'm going to wake up and do the same thing all over again. I've got a journey and I've got a chance to make it a better one. And how do I go about making it a better one? And for me, that's just always that, you know, continuing to, just continue to strive for improvement. Like I'm naturally quite curious, curious person. Like I just like, I like knowing things. I like knowing, you know, most random stuff. Like you'll see me just, the things I keep up at 2am just random things about the world or like, just how can I, you know, go from here to here or what else? Like, what can I, how can I continue to have self-improvement? Like what are things that are well done and how can they be better? And whether it's, you know, stuff like this, which is more for me, like, you know, reaffirming those ideas and those values that I preach to explore. But also just listen to other people's thoughts and read books and just, just be trying to make it better. Yeah, definitely. Key things, yeah. Yeah, that's great. And I'll probably just have more of a personal question from me. Oftentimes, you hear, you hear sort of separate things around this specific thing that I'm about to ask. Some people say if you're chasing your goals, be delusional. You know, live in that la-la land and just keep looking at that one thing at the end of the road and keep striving for it, keep running towards it. Or be realistic. Like, where do you think that's going to be? Because oftentimes, it's way, the way we talk is what ends up happening in our lives. It's what we tolerate that ends up being, becoming our existence. So if we are a little bit delusional, is that beneficial for us? Or should we be a bit more realistic? How do you kind of look at those sorts of things? It's a really good question because I've, I've been in the same, same dilemma like my whole life. Like, I don't know. Yeah. I remember hearing a quote from Steve Smith and he said, you know, aim for the, aim for the stars and follow the treetops. And, I mean, and I've also heard people saying like, you know, let's be, you know, he had this whole acronym of SMART goals and let's be, keep this really to our own. And I think it does come down to, I don't know. I think the biggest thing for me and the best sort of quote, sorry, this is a quote podcast, but, No, keep going. One of the things I remember stuck with me was whether you think you can or you can't, whether you think you can or you can't, you're absolutely right. And I think for me, if there is deep down in my core, I generally feel like I can do this, then I'm going to go all the way. I'm going to commit to it and I'm going to go, you know what? If I generally feel deep down that, yeah, I can actually do this, then I need to start preaching that to myself every day and I need to tell myself I can do it. And nothing, nothing comes in the way. Like no one else is going to tell me off. It's like, no, I can't really say this is what I'm going to do and I'm going to strive for it. And I can remember a season ago and you'd be surprised. Like, I can remember, yeah, a couple of seasons ago I had a really good year in Big Bash and I never ever in my wildest dreams thought I would have the season that I did. And I just remember, I remember at the, like, halfway through the year I was like, I want to finish on like the most runs. I'm like, I think I can. And it was a long way away. It was a long way away. But deep down, I was like, I'm actually in the board really well. I'm playing well. I could probably finish the most runs. And I hadn't played three games at the start of the year so I was already three games behind every other batter. And I ended up coming I think third or fourth in the run for the whole season and I remember just being like so happy. I was like, I know I said I couldn't get it but like, I was like, I'm going to finish in that process. So, there's two things to it. I think it's always important to have goals in terms of where you would love to be and like, how can I, how can I potentially get there? And that's probably the key. Like, how can I do it? And then judging yourself every day on the actual, like, I've always told myself to be an outcome driven or process focused. So, the outcome, drive is to play for Australia, right? That's the drive. The outcome focus is the steps that I need to do and take to get there. So, that's what I'm, that's what I'm focusing on. If I'm getting better at those things every day, hopefully, I mean, playing for Australia, I need, in some way than in luck, I need, like, there's a lot of things I can't control. Like, it's just what's driving me to keep playing and to be the best that I can be is like, well, I don't know how far I'm going to go in this game but let's just find out. So, and like, you know, if you're genuinely deep down, you will always know, your gut is never, ever wrong. In any situation, your gut's never wrong and whatever your gut's telling you, go with it. Commit with it and just go with it. Yeah, no, definitely. And I think that's very important that you say that because especially in a career, like, especially in a career as a professional athlete, there are, there are a lot of things that are out of your control. Things that are out of your control are things like, how are other people's performances? You can't influence other people's performances and they might be outperforming you, they might be underperforming you. Things like selective favouritism, that's something that's out of your control but what we can control is we can control our ability to knock on the door and what we should be doing and striving for is always knocking on that door which is exactly what you're doing and it just comes from the mindset itself and like you said, you're a process-driven person rather than results-oriented as such whilst being very, very competitive and you look at your daily goals, your daily goals talk about, none of them have score, your daily goals are about putting in the work that the result of that will be runs and those sorts of things. So I think it's very interesting and that kind of takes me to my next point that obviously you've grown up with a Sikh background, your parents practising as well. How has that kind of helped or affected your decision-making in any way and how do you ensure that your kind of professional decisions are in harmony with those Sikh values that you might have, might represent from a young age and I think that's quite a world stage. Yeah, another good question. I think you mentioned earlier about how humble I was and I was a keen with nice little ears as you were saying. You are very humble. I'm telling you, if I was scoring the amount of runs you were, no one would see me. No, not at all. But I think that's sort of a big part of that is also, you probably saw in the notes, I meditate, I pray, I do these things. So, one thing that's really important to me of praying is firstly, a sense of gratitude which I think is really important especially we talk about how I try and say I don't want to get too high and too low. For me, being grateful allows me to, if I feel like the needle is getting too high, being grateful brings me back and so it's a chance for me to sometimes talk about where I want things to go and how I want things to be and what path that might lead to and that actually brings the needle back up and then out of all that, the most important thing for me is being true to myself and honesty and I think those are the two values that I take and I think in general that's the way I try and live my life a lot trying to be honest but most importantly trying to be true to myself and I spoke a lot before about my gut and that feeling of do I genuinely believe something and that really comes down to being true to me and yeah I mean I just feel like there's so many lessons and there's so many stories and I guess that is like the most humbling experience ever and I don't know I just feel like every time I do practice whether it's going to the pool or just do it at home you know you get like you hear psychologists all the time talk about the endorphins you get and how do we like people say that they get that from cold immersions or it's like meditation or for me this is another way of getting like a sense of like I don't know like a sense of belonging and sense of like even balance as well you just stay grounded exactly and look I'm still like I don't want to say I'm new to this but like I'm still trying to understand like my relationship with my religion a lot more and I'm slowly getting slowly understanding what's going on in my world but I just feel like the one thing that would never ever change is the values that Siddhi teaches us and I think that's the ultimate way of for me to make sure that I stay true to my values if it's right there in front of me so why not practice it yeah and I think that's really interesting because it's like you're always discovering new things about yourself and therefore your relationship with God with religion and culture with community with all these different things it's always ever-changing because your perspective is constantly being put through different experiences so I think I think that's definitely very interesting and it's interesting you say that the values are something that speak to you and just kind of discover how best you can integrate them in because it can it can become a huge part of the success that you bring or just the mental space that you're a part of so yeah it's funny I think yeah I was talking about a conversation actually we were on the way down to Canberra for the last Big Dutch game and one of the boys was talking about religion and one of the boys said to me he's like do you find yourself religious and I said oh I think I do and I said I'll say alright and I said look at yourself and he was sort of saying that like he the original conversation started off with he's like do you think there's someone above us and I was like he's obviously a Christian and he was talking about religion and sort of how he finds it I was saying to him that like I was explaining to him about you know Sikhism in general and he was like what's the big takeaway out of it I said oh I just think the big takeaway is you know we treat everyone equally no one's going to touch the stairs touch my heart and I go upstairs but I said the reason why I do that is because there's two things one for me it's like it's a reminder of it just brings that instant amount of peace straight away but also I said it's a value because I'm not going to be bigger than anyone else in this field of course you want to psych yourself up it's a humbling experience it's an opportunity to get better and if I stay true to myself and what I want to do good things might happen might not happen it's definitely a very interesting thing I've got a story about that as well when you touch the ground and touch your heart you also do that when you meet people who are older to you who are more wise through an exponential amount of time you get to embrace ourselves completely and go out and do what we want to go out and do because all of a sudden there is no external factor playing a part it's you just coming down to a level head where you can do whatever you want to do whatever you want to do whatever you want to do whatever you want to do whatever you want to do