HACE Podcast EM

Elizabeth McClintock, the executive director of the Bridgeway Group, discusses the importance of coordination and collaboration in post-conflict governance. She highlights the need for communication and joint analysis among different sectors, such as peace building, humanitarian aid, and development work. McClintock acknowledges the challenges in aligning expectations and funding structures but emphasizes the importance of learning and improvement. She also discusses the potential benefits and considerations of merging different agencies, such as Mercy Corps, and incorporating all three sectors of the nexus (peace building, humanitarian aid, and development) within one organization. Overall, she believes that knowledge and understanding of the different sectors are crucial for effective programming and sustainable impact. Okay, great. So would you mind introducing yourself? Not at all. My name is Elizabeth McClintock. I am the executive director of a small nonprofit based in Somerville, Massachusetts. It's called the Bridgeway Group. And that nonprofit does negotiation, conflict management, communication skills, training and consulting around the world. And in my other role, I'm an adjunct assistant professor of international negotiations at the Fletcher School at Tufts. Okay, great. Thank you. And would you mind telling us a little bit about your background of governance in a post-conflict context? So the idea of this nexus, I don't think it's – I wouldn't say it's new. And I think with each generation, there needs to be a renewal of an effort to emphasize why it's so important to at least achieve some communication amongst the different sectors, if not completely coordinated efforts. So I think, obviously, this coordination, this nexus is critical to happen because it's necessary. I found that on the ground, when, say, I was in Burundi or Congo or Timor-Leste, we were naturally coordinating because the situation demanded that. You couldn't accomplish your goals as a peace builder, which is where I would place my skill set, without understanding what the impact of the delivery of humanitarian aid might be on the conflict dynamics. You can't do development work without first creating some modicum of stability and peace in a community such that people's investments are going to be realized as opposed to destroyed by ongoing conflict. So on the ground, I would say that there's always been some level of coordination. Probably the biggest changes over time, and again, some of these predate 2016, but certainly are even more emphasized, if you will, in the various fields, are things like conflict sensitivity. So understanding from a humanitarian or development perspective why it's important to do joint analysis with your colleagues from the peace building field to better understand how their activities might impact the conflict. The work of CDA, Collaborative for Development Action, and Do No Harm was revolutionary, I think, to the field. And they've continued to improve upon their work on connectors and dividers and sort of making sure that every field, at least the ones we're talking about, understands what that means in terms of who you're connecting and who you're dividing by the activities that you're undertaking. And those can be peace building activities, not only humanitarian relief or development activities. But that, I don't want to say even popularizing, but really making understood the underlying conceptual nature of Do No Harm and why it was so important to achieving the goals in any one of those fields. Yeah, I mean, that leads, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that leads kind of smoothly into the next question. Since, you know, you're talking about this idea, something that has been on the ground, like, you know, people have been aware of on the ground for a long time, but now it's an issue of making it more systemic, making organizations accountable. If, you know, obviously, it's kind of a massive question, but if you think there are, like, ways to improve those processes, just based on your own experience. And if the issues are in aligning, you know, the expectations of the higher-ups or organizations with the people on the ground, and like, if that poses a problem for carrying out these kind of collaborations, then like, how could you maybe address that? That's a broad question. It's a good question. And I think if you were to take specific organizations and specific, you know, projects or programming, I think you'd find that there's a fair amount of coordination. So I think certainly it could be improved. The problem is this is not the way funding works, right? Especially if it's related to a government, say, in the U.S. government process, Congress needs to decide, you know, what money gets allocated for what things. And then they want to see the results because they, as an individual and as an entity, are responsible, accountable to the U.S., the population of how citizens, they say, well, how are you spending that money? You know, and is it being put to good use? So I think some of the systemic issues are just hard. They're not easily resolvable because the structure of governments is quite different. We're not the size of Norway in the United States. So making a decision to contribute such a significant portion of your budget to development projects or peace building or foreign aid is a very much more complicated question in the United States given the size of the country and the way in which our government literally is structured. So and I just use those two as an example. Norway is often rightly held up as a country that if it kind of puts its money where its mouth is, so it talks about the importance of these things and then is able to demonstrate that by getting its own parliament to invest in peace building efforts, as an example. But that so some of the problems are simply just a challenge that is not easily going to disappear because of these other factors over which many people in the peace building development and humanitarian relief fields don't they don't have a lot of control. At the same time, I think a lot of change has started to happen. I think what used to be DFID, the Department for International Development, which is now UKAID, has made significant changes in how it engages as a donor with those projects and organizations that it funds. I always found very it's very much a learning organization. So I think change happens when you get people on from donors all the way through to the implementers on the ground to adopt this idea of being a learner, a learning as an individual and as a small implementing organization and as a large donor. That has really improved, I think, specific programming and then overall systems that result in more effective impact on the ground. So improvements are happening and I think they need to continue to happen. Some of them are we have some control over. Some of them we don't have as much control over. And yet I think what I also encourage is people who have worked in the field to then go back and work in their own governments to try and inform how that government thinks about the impact of its aid, if it's going to continue to give aid. And be able to see the world from the perspective of the implementer, because then that's meant that there have been some innovative financing options that have come about. When the Office of Transition Initiatives within the U.S. government was first founded, I think there was a fear of sort of turf wars between sort of classic USAID funding versus something like OTI. But OTI was faster. It was quicker. It could be more responsive. Now, that's a really great financial shift or I should say a shift in a financial way in which you're financing peace building and development programming in a place where I said was really difficult to make changes. And yet it happened. And I think in part that's because you have people being recruited differently. So the thinking is different within the organization itself. And then there's this emphasis on being a learning organization and a mainstreaming of what's important in terms of, say, conflict sensitivity and other really important concepts like do no harm that are all contributing to a shift in how work is done in the field. So I'm not I'm not sure I really answered your question, but I think, yes, of course, it can always be improved and it is being improved. Christina has a follow up question based on what you were asking. I think it might be a good time for that one. Yeah. I was just wondering what's your experience with Mercy Corps and its merger with your organization? Do you think this is the direction for the future? Do you think agencies work better when they incorporate all three sectors of the nexus? Not necessarily. I think I think knowledge of the other sectors is very important and the other kinds of agencies that I I do or the other kinds of work in a single agency, because that knowledge is critical to how the kinds of questions one asks all the way from the beginning. Right. If you're do you make a decision to do joint analysis or not? And so the more knowledgeable you are about the benefits of that and if your organization can incent that kind of behavior, then I think the better information you have to design programming that will ultimately have a more sustainable impact. At the same time, I I come very much from the peace building perspective and I know I don't know everything I need to know about either humanitarian relief or development. And I'm not sure I I think there's something to be said for. Kind of that's not to say I couldn't transition from one to the other, and I'd hope to bring the learning, but I think organizations do do better if they can really. Either within their programming says something like a Mercy Corps that does both, you'd have to I don't be interesting to evaluate how they both see themselves and how others see them in terms of do they do one better than the other? You know, I don't I don't know the answer to that question, but it would be interesting to look at. I think organizations like, say, the Bridgeway group or search for common ground, or which really try to focus on the broader skills of of peace building, conflict management, improving communication and negotiation skills for the purposes of advancing. More effective, peaceful relationships within both of the community, maybe in the national level to advance a peace building goal, I think there's a lot of expertise that you wouldn't want to necessarily dilute there. And and so it. I don't know that I think you'd have the same challenge that we find sort of in the three D's, right? Defense, diplomacy and development, where there's so much money in defense that it overrides the thinking of diplomacy and development. Literally the thinking like it's very difficult to have a different perspective in that context. That's not to say there aren't some extremely enlightened people coming from the defense side who want more thinking from development or I shouldn't say thinking, but definitely want to look at it as a joint effort. It just gets I think there's just different. Again, I go back to the word incentives, but there's a different there's different reasons for engaging and you have different training and a different set of goals that differs, I think, from one to the other sector that need to be respected. Now, did that help? Yeah. And I it's going to be interesting, I think, to ask the same question to our interviewees from the humanitarian development side and see what they think. Right. Right. So I, I do believe that Mercy Corps did a great job of integrating in their peace and conflict. But I also love that they're still willing to reach out and say, hey, you know, this is a little bit beyond what we want to do. We want to bring in some additional expertise here on on the peace building side. So I would hope that that's really the direction rather than than trying to consolidate. Everything I don't think when that merger happened, the idea was that I don't think anyway, it'd be interesting to find out that Mercy Corps thinking we're going to be all things to all people. It was I think what there was was this very prescient and important realization that you can't continue to do development work if you're not aware of do no harm and conflict sensitivity, et cetera. That greatly impacts our ability as a development organization of having a long term impact. That's what drove that. Not somehow that they thought they were going to be all things to all people. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Failure happens when there's desire on the ground to do something together, but that the incentive processes or the incentives, I should say, at the. At the international level of the organization, particularly large, either nongovernmental, international NGOs or UN agencies, et cetera. Those incentives don't always translate on the ground to an ability to work easily together, because when you're on the ground, you're still evaluated by those those incentives and systems that are created somewhere else. So even if you want to be innovative on the ground, sometimes you're not rewarded for that. I think that can still contribute to failure of coordination, just sometimes different, simply different incentives and sometimes clashing policies, a little bit of the turf war problem where who gets credit for what? How do you talk about the work that you're doing? So I think, yes, those failures still still happen. It's going to be an ongoing challenge, I think, as. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.