Listen Very Carefully Podcast 8

And, in this podcast, we are going to talk about Series 1, Episode 7, The Dance of the Hitler Youth. Anybody got any thoughts? Welcome to my kitchen! And today, we are drinking coffee and eating Florentines, because they're Richard's favourite. And the coffee is absolutely delicious. Especially the instant coffee. So, anybody got any thoughts? I can't believe how much there is in this episode. I mean, I just sat there going, there can't be more story going on. We keep saying this, it's like two episodes have been cut together or something. Each one, I keep thinking, is better than the last. Yep, yep, I quite agree. I mean, there's so many characters with so many different agendas. And I thought one of the nicest things about this episode was almost everybody in the show had a showy scene. Yes. A set piece. A set piece. You know, all of us. The old mother-in-law wasn't only in the bed. She came down into the cafe and sang a song. Edith got to strut around as a German soldier. What was the name of the dance that Fanny did? Dance of the Molting Peacock. Of course! Mother, put them back on! As you know, I never go that far! And it was a joy, because there was a classic Gruber and René scene. Which I think continues that theme about the radio inside the suitcase. Yes, the radio. You should probably talk about it. And another one of the set pieces at the bar, with the complete misunderstanding. With the radio hidden behind the bar, and messages to the resistance coming out of the speaker, and René trying to shut it up. Because they're an up-up line. Yes, and Gruber misunderstanding every line he hears, because each one is a double entendre. And ending with, meet me in my back passage. And Gruber thinks he's going on a date. And there's something about a visit from the stork. Who is responsible? Yes. Pierre. He has the bicycle. And we had some good fun scenes that became classic. Well, we really started establishing the sort of interrogation in the cellar, haven't we now? And I love the fact that Helga just sings like a canary. Yes. Without being interrogated at all. It just sort of pours out of her mouth, any information. And she's already told the colonel and the captain that she's dying to be interrogated, so she can sing. Yes, exactly. But she'll take the interrogation if it's good. Yes, absolutely. And I just love the way that she pours everything out to Herr Fleck. She then goes back and pours everything out to the colonel. I mean, she really is... A bit of a double agent. I was quite taken with all those leopard skins that suddenly appeared in the cellar. Where did they come from? Yes. I noticed exactly the same thing. Where did they come from and why do we never see them again? I think we see them quite a bit from now on. Yes. But not always. They're not always there, are they? Oh, I'm not terribly sure. I thought they were always... I don't remember any leopard skins. It was scenes I played with you in that. Another series, different set designer. But also what we were talking about in one of the much earlier podcasts about the sound of our feet clonking on the cellar steps because they're wood. You really hear it. We're walking up with Helga, trying to get out of the door. Oh gosh, look at the time. Yes, we're going to scare the pants off the peasants. Oh, I love that. Driving around in my big Gestapo car. Open-top Gestapo. Scaring the pants off the peasants. I think special mention should go to Ken Oldfield, the choreographer for this one. Yes. I quite agree. He choreographed the wonderful dance of the Hitler Youth. In those days, we would rehearse Monday to Friday. But really, effectively, it was only Monday to Wednesday because everything had to be ready to show to the creatives on Thursday. So they did all of that choreography, plus all the acting, between Monday and Wednesday. And, of course, we only worked mornings because we couldn't possibly come back after lunch. Do any people work in the afternoon? Absolutely not. We sometimes used to get directors who had come in, new, mustard-keen directors, fresh off the BBC director's office. And they'd say, how do you like to play it, you people? Do you like to work through until five o'clock and not have a lunch break? Or do you like to have a lunch break and work till six? We said, well, what we prefer, really, is to sort of go home about 11.30 after a coffee break. It was true. We'd all come in, wouldn't we? We'd meet in the canteen for breakfast. Yes. And we'd have a lovely, leisurely breakfast, get down to the rehearsal room at maybe 10.30, have a bit of coffee. Yes. And then break the lunch at one. I don't know about your scenes in the cafe. I suppose they're much the same. It says in the script, Flick's cellar. Flick is sitting at his desk. Helga comes in and stands in front of the desk. And it's a bit like Gruber goes up to the bar. There isn't a huge amount of directing in it, is there? No, I suppose not. There wasn't a huge amount. We didn't have to learn a lot of moves. No. Our bodies would almost do it automatically because we did it last week. Yes. And we didn't really have to learn an awful lot of lines, did we? Because there were so many regular characters and so many scenes. Yes. But you just had to learn one or two scenes, that was all. So it wasn't that onerous on that line learning. Get back to winding people up in the canteen and changing the menus. Yes. About which we must talk. We will return. Yes. We will return to... To which subject we will return. Changing the scripts on Grange Hill. We'll go into that another time. While we're talking about line learning, I noticed, and I may be wrong, but I think I noticed, catchphrases are now suddenly starting to be established. Yes. I think we heard for the first time with the glasses, the, it is I, Leclerc. Can we, Julian, indulge us? Can we do a little quick Jack Hagen impression, please? Since we love it so much. It is I, Leclerc. You don't say. Is the artist going to do it like that? What was that? Do it again, sorry. Is the artist going to do it like that? Remind me. It was, I think that was referring to me at one point, about the series five. But he used to say it if he was not very happy with what he felt the other person he was playing with was doing. But it was always the artist. Oh, brilliant. I'd forgotten that. And I think, again I may be wrong, but I think we heard for the first time, you stupid woman. I made a note of that, actually. I think we did. Voice up a bit. You stupid woman. That's the one. And I think we heard it for the first time in this episode. Yes. When Madame Edith caught Yvette in Renée's arms. Yes. You know, what are you doing with your arms around Yvette, you stupid woman? No, but in the other ones it was, you stupid woman. But in this it was a slightly different inflection. But it's a you stupid woman. But I think it's the first time we heard it. Yes. So we hadn't established how she was going to do it. Oh, I just remembered another Jack Haig thing, which, much later on, which no doubt we'll talk about again when we come to it. He and Rose, grandmother, didn't always see eye to eye because their techniques... You could say that again. Their techniques were so different. But I remember there was... Remind us of the background of the two of them, because it is quite contrasting. Rose having come from an acting and a singing background. Operatic singing. Operatic singing. And Jack having come from proper old musical. And so he had very much sort of gags. He was a very gag person. And she was much more into the truth in a strange way, with knocking her script out so that the words always came out the same. But there was one scene that they had later on, and she was leaving one of her famous long pauses. And when the scene was finished, Jack Haig said to David Croft, the director, I could have eaten a ham sandwich in that pause. A ham sandwich. And it was wonderful the way he'd actually used the word ham. I mean, he'd managed to get so much of an insult into one sentence. And it was... yeah, he was very funny. I suppose, as someone like that, eating a ham sandwich is a form of cannibalism. Get it? But a ham. Ham sandwich. I love that. And it is interesting what you say, because Rose did almost sing her role. She did. You could really hear it. Once she was aware of how she marked up her script, then you could hear it. Heavy on the vibrato. Which obviously also was marked in the script. Yeah. Like a waveform. Yes. It's very interesting. Oh, I've got Gordon and Jack here, so this would be another example of different acting styles. But they sort of loved each other, those two, didn't they? In a way, they kind of respected each other, because they were constantly... It wasn't exactly combat. It was just two different ways of doing it. Yeah. I think there was a sort of love-hate relationship. Oh, definitely. There wasn't, though, I guess. Yes. Because they were funny. They found each other funny. But they would actually rather... What was that scene then that you were talking about? What went on in it? It was the cheese cellar, wasn't it? Yes. Yes. Sorry, yeah, the cheese cellar. And it's, It is I, Leclerc! You don't say! Again, something established as a sort of leitmotif again, a kind of a recurring song, if you like, a recurring tune, with Jack overplaying whatever new disguise he'd been given. And poor René, telling him to shut up. Who will buy my cheesers? Shut up! Shut up! And you point off as... Cheesers! Cheesers! Shut up! Shut up, you old cheese seller! Shut up, you old bird catcher! Shut up, you pillow stuffer! Pillow stuffer! He did come back as a pillow stuffer at one point. He did. Later episode. To be continued. Oh, spoiler! Yeah, spoiler. Yeah. Pillows! You know something? Who will buy my stuffed pillows? And have we mentioned Ken Oldfield? We did mention him, but we thought... It was less than five minutes ago. Yeah, well, you see, no memory of him. No short-term memory, especially after a quarantine. When you get to our age, it's like being a goldfish, isn't it? It's just the three of us, eight seconds later, we're telling the same story again. To repeat... Would you like a cup of tea? Yes. To repeat, Ken Oldfield was the wonderful choreographer who choreographed the dance of the Hitler Youth, and he choreographed many dance sequences in the show. Yes. And he was very patient with me, I remember, because dancing is not my strong point, and he had to teach me that slap-and-tickle thing. And the girls, the Hitler Youth girls, they were all professional dancers, and they came and they picked up that whole wonderful routine in an hour or something, and the little bit of slap-and-tickle that I had took him like a whole morning for it to be drilled into my head, and even then I was in a state of terror and panic. Does it take that long for you to get the hang of... Does it take that long for you to get the hang of slap-and-tickle? Snip. There's definitely a snip there. It did in those days, because I was such an innocent... Improvised slap-and-tickle. Yes. Much better. The coffee's wonderful. Can I talk seriously, just for a moment, please? Oh, God. The stories are so well-constructed in these. When I was watching it, I thought, if it wasn't a comedy series, the actual plot would make an episode of Secret Army, wouldn't it? Yes, it would. The plot actually has an integrity and attention and vulnerability for the people who are in danger. And actually, if it was simply a story about, in this case, the fallen Madonna, without the gags, it would be a proper serious drama. Is that the test of a good comedy script? Well, I think it absolutely is. I mean, when you see Gordon and Carmen dressed as Germans, it's really suspenseful when they're trying to improvise the password. So we'll just say, what is the password? And all that stupid business. That clever, stupid business about the password. Which is a cliché from every war film. And I'm sure Richard Marner was that sentry at various times. Endlessly, in so many old war films. Which is, again, which is what A Low, A Low Wall is. It was a send-up of so many very serious war movies. You were about to say something. I could see you chanting it a bit to try and say something. I was about to say something. Well, it just occurred to me. And thank you for bringing up the subject. Because what I was about to say was, we talked a lot in a previous podcast about the truth which actors need to display in comedy in order for it to be funny. As soon as the audience stop believing you, they stop laughing. And it occurs to me, because of what you just said, that the writers work on the same principle. They tell the truth. And therefore, the story of A Low, A Low needs to hold up. Irrespective of the comedy, it needs to be a truthful story. Just as the actors need to tell the truth, so do the writers. Am I talking nonsense? No, you're not. No, for once, you're not. I'm watching it. There is such a story going on. I can understand why it was so popular. Because it's real escapism. You really do get lost in the story, as well as laughing so much. In Last Pod, they were tied up in a barn. And Mackie, the communist resistance, were pointing a gun. And we actually said, how are they going to get out of this? Yes. We did. We did, in a genuine way. That's a good point. It'll be interesting to see how they get out of this one. And in the end, it was gunshot in the background and they scarpered. Yes. They were being attacked by the other resistance. Yes. And also, another thing which I'm really loving now is the start of the whole Where is the Real Fallen Madonna with the Beatles. Oh, yes. And the whole business being set up. Because I can remember that as Tim, the actor, there were a couple of times when we were filming, because we used to do all the outside stuff before the series actually started, before we recorded episode by episode at the BBC. But we had about three weeks where we would do all the exterior stuff on film. And I can remember there were a couple of times where I had absolutely no idea, partly because Helga had so many feet in so many different camps and was telling lies right, left and centre. But partly just me couldn't work out where the real painting was and where the forgery was. Yes. And I sort of remember developing a slight enigmatic sort of I know but I'm not going to let on expression because I literally didn't know. Yes. Okay, quick question. Where is the Fallen Madonna now? It's in your High Gestapo boot. Is it though? But is it the real one? Is it the real one? Well, yes, because the forgery is in the cellar. We know that. And the painting on the wall is a forgery. You have just told me in that scene with the leopard skin that you commissioned it. That you commissioned a forgery and that you had taken the real one and put it, rolled it up and put it in your boot. And then I went back to the cafe and told the Colonel that the real painting was now in your boot. So we think we know where it is at this point. Yes. Fallen Madonna, what's Fallen Madonna patrol? So, so what was the one? But a German soldier took it off. Did he deliver it to Herr Flick? Where did it go? I think, yeah, he was going to take it. He said, I'll take it to his room. The soldier. To give to Herr Flick or was it to take it to his own room? No. No, he said he was going to take it to you, but to your room. But we don't know, do we? Because we never saw it again. Because there's a very short time span between that and Herr Flick telling Helga that it's rolled up in the High Gestapo boot. So who was that? Well, is that because that was the same painting? Was, was that the painting that you'd commissioned to be a false story? You're going down that wormhole again. You're, you're as confused now as you were then. At the beginning of the Fallen Madonna story and you were so confident you knew where it was. Yes. And already you've gone down the wormhole. So, so what was the painting that, why were René and, and Carmen and Madame Edith, why were they delivering a painting to Herr Flick, the forgery? Because they think that's the forgery and they're going to swap it for the one that's in Flick's cellar. Right. They've been told to go in there. But the one in Flick's cellar is actually already a forgery because he has put one rolled up in his High Gestapo boot. Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, listeners, dear listeners, this is going to be a continuing theme of where is the painting of the Fallen Madonna. So if you, if we've got it right or we've got it wrong and you want us to know, you can always, you can always email us at pod at helgergruberflick.com just in case we've made an error with the whereabouts of the Fallen Madonna because this is going to get more complicated week by week. I think that's quite enough of that. And what I would like to say while we're on the subject of forgeries, I loved that cake in the cupboard. Oh yes. With his candle doing his forgery. Oh, I've just finished. And then, and then you said it was all right. And I said, I'll blow out my candle and go back to sleep. I loved it. And pulls the drawers and pulls the drawers shut. It was wonderful. And I'll tell you what else in that scene was wonderful. When the airman appeared out of the floor and as you said at the time when we were watching it, their feet must have been hanging down into the room below. Into the cafe, yes. And then Michelle hunches down to talk to them to film it and grandmother says, why is my room full of midgets? It's not full of midgets. And I said, why is my room full of midgets? I thought, that is definitely a Jeremy Lawyer line. Oh, absolutely. And didn't it look, the minute she said that and you looked at me, three times. And you could just see Jeremy, you know, oh, oh, what a genius. What a genius. So, I, there are, there are so many things to talk about with this episode but, first time I sang, which I liked, I can't help it, which again, becomes a slightly recurring theme. I do get to sing at the piano quite a lot, adoringly, to beautiful young men and sometimes even to Rene himself. Did you cast those young men? Were you in the casting process? Well, sadly not. No, but I mean, yes, very handsome young men, all of them. David must have had a, I don't know, maybe Susie was involved. Some, he got some girl to, you know, to choose some beautiful young men they could find. Not necessarily a girl. Well, not necessarily. Not naming names? No, not naming names but it could have been Gordon. Snip. May I, may I change, again, change subject entirely and talk about something quite else and that was the wonderful scene that was shot in Cromer of, on the beach of the Hitler Youth being brought to, to, to, to, to do, to do exercising and swimming in the sea and catch pneumonia and then the airman refusing to go because there was a crab in the bottom of the boat, a dead crab. So they all go back after they go to the beach? Yes, they all go back. Now, David Croft told me that quite unnecessarily the, our wonderful film cameraman, the Prince of Darkness, Max Hammett, had brought with him a, a wetsuit and insisted on wading out into the sea and shooting from, I don't know, 30 yards out in, out at sea shooting towards, shooting towards the, the beach and David said, and he didn't need to do this, I didn't, I, this was not in, in my camera script but he thought it would be, he just was one of those cameramen who liked to be in the most difficult position and the action man. Yes, and he did look good actually, that shot, didn't he? He did look good but I mean, the fact that he wanted to be an action man when he was only actually about four foot six. Yes. He couldn't go very far out to sea. He couldn't go very far out to sea because yes, they would have come over his head. Between your teeth. I just love the end of the episode which is establishing which we get quite often those lines of people and daft things happening and in this one the Hitler Youth are all lined along the beach bent down to do leapfrog. They're going to take it in terms of leapfrog across each other and it's just such a silly image isn't it and that sort of visual, everyone if it's along the horizon or along the beach line. It's childlike actually. Yes. It's something about, there is a sort of innocent childlike thing about playing leapfrog and yet there's a childlike aspect of it. Yes. But the visual, the image, you're absolutely right. I think and also the childlike thing. I think that is all a part of David Croft. There was a sort of child in this 65 year old man, wasn't there? For sure. He did have that kind of joy in what he did which was almost childlike and again the horizon shots were the lines of David himself. Oh well, again, lines of people across the horizon where... On the top of the hill. Yes, very often you'd see people running and there is one later on which I don't want to spoil for you. Yes, we won't spoil but he did rather specialise in that and quite often at the end of the episode you would see ten people all chasing each other and that was the motif of David. It was a recurring theme, a little bit like the animals watching the action. It was something that David just always saw and he always wanted to put one of those shots in. And Sam Kelly has a wonderful childlike quality. The Colonel and the Captain are sort of a bit like the burglars in Home Alone or the brokers in Santo and they're sort of child watch aren't they? And together they're just so lovely together and I know sometimes they disagree to go with each other but I suppose that's what's all part of the creative process that you end up with something so brilliant. I don't think they realised just quite what an apt double act they made. David and Jeremy could see it but they were perfect together actually but Sam used to his childlike qualities. And he has big blue eyes when he takes off his glasses. And weeps and he falls in love with Cooper. That was a turn up for the book and then so does the Colonel. You too. Absolute favourite. So listeners what are we going to ask them to do this week? Well we've got Fallen Madonna watch haven't we? What is the address? Pod at Helga Gruber flick dot com Got it. Well we've had a lovely time with you all both of you listeners and we'll be back for the next one soon. And so from Kim's Kitchen goodbye. Goodbye. I'll put the kettle on.