RemembertheRowan1

Kristen was inspired to write "Remember the Rowan" to bring awareness to Kathleen Raine's work and challenge the way her story has been told. She researched Kathleen's life and work through libraries, archives, and visiting places important to her. Kristen aimed to capture Kathleen's voice and vision in her own writing, emphasizing empathy and understanding. She found her own voice through the process and focused on highlighting Kathleen's emotional richness alongside her intellectual brilliance. Okay. Thank you so much, Kristen, for being here. It is so wonderful to have you on the Ringwood podcast. There are a few questions that I have that I'd love to ask you about Remember the Rowan. The first one is, what inspired you to write Remember the Rowan? Thank you for having me on the podcast, Madeline. Thanks, everybody. Yes, so I am like, I would say, most people in Scotland. I came to Kathleen Raine's work through Gavin Maxwell. So I read or actually first I listened to Ring of Brightwater via audiobook. And it begins with what I now know is one of Kathleen Raine's poems, The Marriage of Psyche Part Two, of which the ring appears at the front of Ring of Brightwater in its entirety. But there is no name attached to that page. So in the audiobook version, it sounds very much as if Gavin Maxwell wrote the entire poem himself. She appears very obliquely in Ring of Brightwater. She mentioned a couple of times, it's not clear what the relationship is, what her connection to this landscape, this author, this man really encompasses. So as I delve a little deeper, I was firstly shocked that I hadn't encountered her before, a woman of her vision, such a powerful, poetic voice. And then also outraged in the way in which when she is mentioned, it is as this little embarrassing footnote in Gavin Maxwell's life, to the point that we do, in fact, have an accusation of witchcraft as late as 1968, which I know that we'll maybe be coming to later. But it is so reductive, so misogynistic, the way that the tale has thus far been told. So really, it was to, I was inspired to write the book to bring about something of a Raine renaissance, to bring awareness of Kathleen Raine's work, of her vision to a new generation of readers and to write the roles to tackle this injustice of how her story, her connection to Gavin Maxwell and through that, her connection to Scotland has been told. So that was the feminist historical emphasis behind the book. That's so great, you're able to do this and be able to find her life, you know, through this book and really find a home for it in your own work. And along that process, though, what was your process in researching Kathleen's life and work? Did you use libraries, archives? Was it real places from Kathleen's life? Yeah, all of the above, really. And funnily enough, I started writing the first draft of the manuscript during lockdown. So that somewhat staggered my access to some resources that made me cherish them all the more. The wonderful thing about writing with new writers is, as you can imagine, there is a lot of writing to get your teeth into. So I've mentioned that Gavin highlights Kathleen in his work quite obliquely. She, on the other hand, was very candid about her feelings for him in her own work. She wrote four volumes of autobiography, the third of which, The Lion's Mouth, really details this relationship quite significantly. And yet she blames herself mercilessly for everything that went wrong. So that was really my way in. I thought, I think we'll maybe touch on this later, Madeline, but Kathleen certainly described herself as no feminist. So I thought, as a modern woman looking on, this is a perspective that I can bring. This is a compassion that she couldn't give herself. So, yes, I started by reading everything that I could lay my hands on that they wrote. And it's interesting because, as readers will discover, Kathleen was not only an award-winning poet, but she was a paradigm shifting scholar. She specialised in William Blake, really transformed the discipline through her insights. And she was the first woman in history to deliver the A. W. Mellon Lectures at Washington, D.C.'s Academy of Fine Arts about Blake. So a real scholarly pioneer, as well as a poetic pioneer. But the reason I mentioned that is that her approach there was to not just read what Blake wrote, but read what he read. So I think that really informed me as well, to sort of immerse myself as much as I could in their words to capture their voices. And then as time went on, as lockdowns opened up and then regressively sometimes closed off again, what I found was I was able to access archival resources like the National Library of Scotland. And I always, if it's an in-person, which will be somewhat lost in podcasting, sorry, but I can post a picture on Instagram that I visited the special collections reading rooms where the Gavin Maxwell papers are. I think it was pretty much the week that they reopened post lockdown. And it's supposed to be a little passport photo, it's supposed to be very serious, very straightforward. And I'm just beaming ear to ear because I'm so glad to be there and accessing this since last. So it's really, I mean, I describe libraries all the time as free riches. You could not put a price on what you can access. And the fact that that's free is incredible. And then I know that you asked about in-person visits as well, and that has been so enriching at various stages. And I don't think I'm done yet visiting all the places that are special to them. And as I mentioned, a spoiler alert was in the afterwards that Kathleen visited India for the first of two times, aged 74. So I'm yet to get there. Maybe, bear with me, maybe one day. But I visited places like Great Bavington, where she grew up during the First World War and Aldwater Martindale, where she took refuge with her children during the Second World War. So it does really feel like the veil is at its thinnest when you walk in a character's footsteps like that. Great Bavington in particular, this is where her ashes were scattered at the end of her long life. So really, really powerful place to be. But above all else, a testament to the power of her writing, because as she evokes it in her poetry and her prose, it felt beautifully unchanged. It felt as if, yes, really Kathleen at all ages and stages was with me in those places. I love all of this, especially the part about capturing their voices as well. So fascinating with this. Yeah, and of course, Kathleen was a poet and a prolific writer. Can you explain the process of going through her memoirs, poems, and other works and getting to know her as a person through her writing? And then similarly, reading through her writing and then having that impact your own writing style? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's no exaggeration to say that Kathleen Wayne will forever be one of the most important people in my life. And I hope I carry her voice and her vision with me for the rest of my own life. Something that I think was quite intriguing when you approach something from the perspective of historical fiction, rather than a non-fiction text, it's not about footnoting. It's not about, it's quite a different attitude. It's more about the absorption. It's more about empathy, above all else. It's really an exercise in empathy. There's a quote from Tamerlanda Ngozi Adichie, which I love, from her recent lecture, where she said that the purpose of fiction is not just to tell what happened, but how it felt. That was really my priority here. I mean, this is, again, I'm holding the book up, and it is a chunky monkey. We're calling it Value for Money. This is 20 years of Kathleen's life, so it is a very substantial chapter of her life. But I could never cover in one volume the entirety of that, and you wouldn't want to. So it's more about, yeah, about harnessing empathy for her. I think understanding not just where her mind was, but where her heart was. And of course, I think, as all of us who know and love poetry understand that poetry was the way into that. So there are a number of collections, particularly the Year One from the 1950s and the Hollow Hill from the 1960s, and On a Deserted Shore, a collection after Gavin Maxwell's death, that is this epic, forcic sequence of life, love, loss. Her reactions to her understanding of this relationship are there so vividly, so bitterly in her poetry. So that was always my kind of north star with the process, that I would go back to, firstly, what she had shared, because, of course, you want to honour what they wanted out in the world. And I've been very lucky that Faber and Faber, who are in charge of Kathleen May's literary estate these days, have given us permission to include her words at various points within the novel. So you'll see that it does open, for instance, with Ring of Bright Water, with the ring in its entirety, with her name attached this time. So, yeah, I think I was taking my lead from her as much as possible. And just, it feels like, I speak often about the importance of feminism to my work, really, that is the lifeblood of it. And that was really the contribution that I felt I could make to this tale. And it feels quite a feminist act in its own right to foreground the heart, as well as the intellectual, that her emotional life, her emotional richness is as important as her undeniable intellectual brilliance. So, yeah, blending them all together and finding my voice through her, I have to be honest, as well. Oh, that's really exciting, though. Can you explain a bit more about how you found your voice through her writing and then through writing the story as well? Yeah, sure. It was such an intense experience. I don't think I'll ever know the light again in my life. And funnily enough, very early on, I contemplated writing a chapter from either perspective. So one chapter from Kathleen's point of view, one chapter from Gavin. And I found, firstly, his voice is, I think, better known around the world. He's already echoing, he's already rippling, thanks to the incredible popularity of Rain of White Water. And actually, most importantly, I realised that a big part of the tension in the relationship is that we don't know for sure what Gavin feels about Kathleen. She lives these 20 years finding it hard to feel confident and that finding it hard to be certain. So actually, the truth of her emotional experience required us to not have that insight into him. I'm not sure whether he knew what he felt. But back to my own voice and my own writing, I think this has taken me stratospherically beyond wherever my writing was before in terms of the depth and in terms of, I think, my commitment to character. It was such an intense experience, to the point that various scenes, when I was writing scenes at Sandbaig and Kathleen is walking along the shoreside, I could actually feel my feet getting damp. I'm not the right person. It's time to take a break. It's time to go downstairs, go for a dog walk, sort of come back to the real world. But it was really an incredible effort at embodying. So I couldn't say for sure that I wouldn't want Baby Rain near this. It's very much inspired by a true story. I'm not saying that every little bit of dialogue, everything is exactly as it was or at the right time, because of course, we have to shape the narrative around it. But I am confident that it's the emotional truth of what she went through, through this relationship. And I feel like it's been a real gift to me that her poetry is still echoing in my head and heart for the long way that continues. That's a great point as well, though, in terms of having the liberty to move the narrative around. I guess, what was the process like in terms of moving the narrative around? How did you decide what to include where? It's a good question. And it's probably just a necessity when you have two writers who were quite prolific over the same period. I feel like I have actually changed relatively little from the narrative. It tends to be just a slight shaping, a slight sculpting, for instance, passing visits to the US twice during this period. But I've brought those two visits into one. And one moment I can't prove for sure, maybe it's in the bowels of the British Library and I haven't encountered it yet. I don't know for sure whether Kathleen Raine ever visited Monreith, which is the Maxwell estate. But I wanted to convey her relationship, the difficulty she had with Gavin's family, the tensions that were there. And writers are often told, show, don't tell. So it was so much more powerful to imagine what it would have been like, rather than say this is exactly as it was. So those are probably the only ones that come to mind that were invention. And I will say on behalf of Ringwood, it was such a great confidence thing when we were working through what's called the big picture edit. So you're looking at structure, you're looking at plot. They were really empowering of that. Actually, my editorial team, led by a wonderful Matilda, that I think, above all else, it was almost, you imagine their relationship as a sort of, is it a cardiogram when it's zigzagging, you know, in my casualty or obesity? It was just actually sort of picking your favourite sites. It was a very, very volatile for many years throughout this period that I cover. And the funny thing is, there are almost moments that I know if it wasn't real life, they would never get passed because they're almost implausible. It's like the truth is stranger than fiction, right enough. I mean, even the fact that the name, you know, we have pain, we have rain, they're incredibly volatile. The fact that a key fight takes place on Gavin's birthday on a certain scene, I don't want to include a spoiler here, but a caffeine sex sale after something very, very dramatic, the day after a key event in Gavin's life. And it's like this really happened. This really is, yeah, it's stranger than fiction, right enough. So I'm happy to say there wasn't all that much. It certainly wasn't kind of chiselling it down too much. If anything, actually, just trying to, yeah, realise what a reader can enjoy, what a reader can handle of this. I think Kathleen probably went through even more volatility than I was able to fit in these some 400 odd pages. That's so great. And on that note of that spoiler, which we will not name as well, though, because that lecture is actually, I was reading in the acknowledgement or at the end of the book that that was the real lecture that you received. And so I'm wondering, I mean, it's really incredible that you were able to include that as well. And I'm curious, what was the process of going through Gavin Maxwell's writings as well? Yeah, well, that was so generous of the Gavin Maxwell estate to permit me to include that letter. And I'm so grateful because it's, yes, the kind of climactic moments we shall not name. I did have one friend say to me, well, it'd be worse if you made it up, I think, which I think it was a compliment in there. I know what she meant. But yes, so we have the real, yes, the real lesson is, as I say, there's quite a few occasions where we do have their real words. The Gavin Maxwell papers, if anybody is in Edinburgh at all, I can not recommend heading to the National Library of Scotland and requesting from special collections some of these papers. I mean, I have shed a tear. I have laughed out loud thanks to that man, which in itself really allowed me to empathise with Kathleen because his charm shined off the page. And you can be talking 70 years later and yet, you know, I'm trying to sort of hide sniggers. One of the first things I took out from the Gavin Maxwell papers was actually his fan mail. And I thought, oh, this will be letters that fans have written to him. But it was so much better because it was letters that he has written to his secretary or secretaries, because they didn't really seem to last very long, what he wanted to reply. And then you can see this poor, it's usually a young woman having to craft it into something palatable for the poor fan. And like one of my all time favourites that is paraphrased in the book was it was a school child who was doing a school project on otters. And they'd written to Gavin Maxwell saying, please, could I have some more information about otters? So please tell this wicked and presumptuous child to show some initiative and use their local public library. I'm not writing his thesis for him. And then the secretary has got to say, this is really a rather vague question, you know, have you thought of going to the library? So even from moments like that, you could just get the sense of his character. I mean, what he could be like when he turns, but also what a wit, what a kind of, I think Gavin Maxwell would have been one of these characters where it feels very cold when the spotlight's not on you, but then when it shines, it's warm, it's bright. And that's faintly addictive for many women, for Nazi men as well, and indeed even otters. So, yeah, harnessing their real words, even if it doesn't make the final cut, even if it's not appropriate to include it there, it gives you such a flavour for their turn of phrase, for their way of interacting, even tiny things like the fact that in Ring of Bright Water, Gavin's dog is known as Johnny, but actually in his letters he's holding John Dog to friends. And it's like you can include those little hints of signs that would otherwise be lost. So it's such a sort of a privilege and a pleasure all the way through to access resources like that. On that note as well, though, yeah, how did you balance the truth of memoirs and letters versus the creative inspiration? Like, how did you frame it in the book in a way, you know, for example, there's the Gavin's real letter alongside imagined conversations and places. How were you able to balance that, not only the narrative structure, but also the creative structure as well? Yeah, it's an important question and it's something that was very front of mind for me as the process went on. I think, again, my north star, or as I say, when she read it, my comfort hill for the novel was Kathleen's Reliance Mouse, because she is so candid, so raw. And I think people today think they're being honest about their emotions, they're being on, you know, celebrity memoirs or shocking this or that, and it's like, no, my goodness, read this and the power and yeah, how visceral, how vivid it is when a woman really lays her heart on the page. So I knew from that, I think, the emotions and the perspectives that she was comfortable sharing that made sense to her to have out in the world. And as I mentioned before, I think above all else, it was about the emotional truth, the emotional honesty. So I had a very, again, they had to live it, but life happened to grant them a very powerful narrative as well, because I think I'm not, I'm probably not, I think plot is my weakest point as a writer. I love those, I could dwell, you know, prose poetry is where I'm at my happiest, like I could dwell for hours on, you know, a raindrop on a rose kind of thing. But they lived this incredible plot, so I just had to kind of hitch on them for the ride. But what is quite interesting is that, say, for example, there's a key argument as part one feeds to part two in the novel, and I will, I know from their writing that this quarrel, I know the time of year that it takes place, I know who's present, and I know that it ends with Kathleen saying, or rather shrieking out to the storm, may God forgive you, and Gavin says he will. So actually it was more a case of tracing back, of having a sense of emotionally where they're both at, literally, literarily where they're both at in terms of what they've been writing, and then imagining how these emotions could have manifested in a conversation. So it's never going to be an easy, an easy line to walk, but I feel almost a bit like Kathleen's translator to this, this era, to a new generation of readers. It's about the emotional truth above all else. The honesty and integrity of what she would put out into the world, and then just, yeah, bringing other people, bringing that to new readers, to new eyes. I love this so much as well, the emotional truth, such a beautiful way to describe this. I think in this part of the podcast, there's a few sensitivity issues, so just in case for listeners, etc., just, you know, be forewarned about this as well, in terms of proportion and other, you know, pressing issues as well, though, as I said, there are a few instances where I was really shocked at the treatment of women in Remember the Ruin. For example, when Kathleen spoke about consent in marriage, the abortion she had, and then the treatment of the nurses toward her after she had the abortion, and I mean, it's just really incredible, and just all the emotions that she has to go through in this time period, and I wonder, I'm looking back at her life going through this, I wonder how Kathleen's life would have been impacted if she were born, for example, closer to the present, or living through the era of, you know, post-MeToo as well. Yeah, yeah, I feel like even if we'd had this conversation a couple of years ago, we would have felt much more optimistic about that, but to be honest, when we look at women's lives around the world, it's the more things change, the more things stay the same, regrettably, but yeah, Kathleen's relationship with womanhood and with feminism has fascinated me and given me a few sleepless nights over the process. She quite famously, or quite notoriously, refused to describe herself as a feminist, and I've had conversations about this with the wonderful Sarah Sheridan, who people will see, very generously gave a cover quote, was one of my earliest readers, and I think she's seen this as something of a pattern, especially for mid-century women. You know, as I've mentioned, there's no question whatsoever that Kathleen was a pioneer, but a condition of that was not rocking the boat to such an extent. You know, I think it was a very precarious situation that they found themselves in, professionally and personally, as you've touched on, and Kathleen's work, her poetry, is always very much anti-material, anti-commercial. It's about spirituality, it's about the centrality of something greater than the here and now, and I think for her, especially kind of colliding with secondary feminism, which was very right-based and had very good reasons to be so, I think that was why that didn't shine with her. Interestingly, I definitely see a hardening of her kind of hostility towards feminism as a result of the Maxwell relationship, and I think that that ties into the self-blame that I've touched on, because early on she will describe William Blake's wife Catherine, for example, as one of the exemplary wives in literary history. She was quite interested in her, and even in a very early collection of essays, Catherine documents her housework routine as a single mother of two young children, and yet she says, I'm not including this because it will be, I'm paraphrasing, but she's not including it because it's news to any woman, but it makes it into print remarkably seldom. So she was very aware at that point that voices were not being heard, but by the time we get to the end of the Maxwell relationship, she's far harsher, she's far more self-reprimanding, and I think that is because she blamed her heart, her emotions and therefore her womanhood for what had gone wrong in this relationship. Now, needless to say, that is not where I think the blame resides, but it's worth kind of recognising that too. I wonder what her life would have been like to live in a different era. In some ways, she's an incredibly timeless writer. I could see her belonging many centuries distant and many centuries in the future. One of my favourite poems of hers from the year one, she says, the world that you inhabit has not yet been created, and I think that's incredibly true for Catherine. I think she would have, she had the intellectual, the spiritual clout to make her way in whatever era she'd find herself, but yeah, the material reality that even the greatest visionary can't fight did weigh very heavily on her at various times. But I, as a woman writer, even amazingly privileged to live in 2024, not 1949 when Remember the Rain begins. That version has not been listed of women writers around the world, I'm sad to say. And Kathleen was a mother of two children in the story, and she left for the romantic pursuit of Daphne and the creative pursuit of writing. And I also wonder, alongside the idea of feminism and being a woman, being a mother, how would this have been viewed differently if it were, for example, a man leaving his children behind to pursue love and creativity? Would there still be such scrutiny on motherhood or parenthood if she were a man and had done this as well? Yeah, well, we can run that scenario very easily because her husband did. Her husband's life started a family with somebody else. So, and I have never seen any condemnation whatsoever of that. And then don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anybody does deserve condemnation for, you know, life is hard. I'm not a mother myself. I can only imagine how difficult parenthood is. So it's actually, I would rather see that compassion extended to women as well. And this was another injustice in the Reign retelling that I really, really wanted to have the novel set right. And I cannot stand it. I have heard people say, Kathleen Reign abandoned her children. In fact, that is so far from the case. Yes, I think she was at a low ebb, actually, very practically, as well as emotionally. If she's a single mother trying to make ends meet, you can see why she needed to be in London to make that happen as a writer. But equally, if you think of post-Blitz London, it's not somewhere that I would suggest would be an ideal environment for children either. So when her friend and patroness, Helen Sutherland, who incidentally is a fascinating character, and I believe her biography is coming because she's really, she meant a great deal to Kathleen at a very difficult time in her life. Helen offers to take care of the children, for the children to stay with Helen in the Lake District in a beautiful house called Cockneymoor, which I've been lucky enough to visit. And I can see why that made sense, actually, to a loving mother. Kathleen blames herself for the difficulties that ensued as a result of that decision, but I think she deserves the validity and the respect for why she made it. It would be like, kind of, let she or let he cast the first stone who hasn't made an error of judgment that it takes time to prove. But there's no question, you can see even in her poetry, work is dedicated to her children throughout. There's no question that she loved them deeply. And in fact, I think it's sad to see that it was part of that love that she thought they might be better off with somebody else, with somebody who had a, quote unquote, better handle on their life, who was more materially secure. So that is another injustice that I hope readers will take away. So I said like, too long didn't read. Kathleen did not badger her children. She did not curse Gavin Maxwell. She was not a witch. She was one of the greatest, most underrated poets and scholars that Scotland and the UK have ever had, as far as I'm concerned. There's also an impersonal life, too. She, you know, I think towards the end of the book, as well, and when she took care of her parents as well in the same home. And it's so hard to, of course, you know, have your own life and then also caregivers, you know, be a caregiver for parents for different generations. And it's such a hard thing to do as well. And Kathleen did it for her children and for her parents as well. She did. And that will be something that I think modern women reading, and indeed, actually, anybody modern, you know, is that squeezed middle generation is very, very present and caring for everybody. And just that the way that, I mean, I can see even with friends and family today, the way that society is structured and goodness knows it was even more so back then. It was only on the basis, you know, the great achievements, the great economies, it's all on the basis of women's unpaid, unrecognised labour. It would not be possible otherwise. So I think people will empathise with Kathleen then. And again, she was trying to set right very self-punishing, very self-incriminating for probably very natural kind of spats and teens and twenties and pushing against parental authority, as we all do in different ways. But yes, she was very, I didn't want to say, I was going to say dutiful daughter there, and that actually sounds very passive and very repressed, and I don't think it was. I think she had great capacity. I mean, the main thing that comes out of the book is the capacity she had to love. And it's really nice that you're bringing that out, that capacity to love, not just Gavin Maxwell, but to love her children, to love her parents, to love her friends as well. You can see from the relationships that she forged with women and men throughout her life, a kind of emotional richness she had access to. Yes, that love does come out through in your writing and the story as well. You know, how much love you had to give to other people and also to spirituality as well, the creativeness of that, and so much, and also to the otter as well. What a lovely, I don't want to give anything away as well, but it was so beautiful, the relationships, not only with people, but also with animals too. Oh, good. That's very true of my own life as well. I think to reduce any of these stories to only the human characters would be a real loss as far as I'm concerned, and hopefully people will fall in love with the otter just the way that Gavin and Kathleen both did. And she herself said in later years, we all understand best what we love. So she, yeah, she grasped that. And hopefully, yes, you can tell from the way I talk, I'm sure how much I fell in love with them all and with Kathleen in particular. So hopefully that's apparent in Rowan as well. I also want to go back to the idea, in a way, about perception of people and how that changes also, because in the story, and of course in her life as well, the idea of women being accused of witchcraft is historical in many places and also something that is so relevant today. And the part about the curse was really so well written and so haunting. And I think even more haunting than the scene itself of what happened was the reaction to it, first from Gavin and then from the former neighbor who barely spoke to her as well after that kind of came out in Gavin's text. And I'm really curious though, in a way, because I think in the story as well in here that Gavin's brother had mentioned that everything happened to Gavin, you know, Gavin was looking for someone else to blame instead of taking accountability for his own actions. And I'm wondering, you know, have things changed in the decades since this book was written and since they've lived their lives? And what is the modern view on witchcraft, women, and curses? I feel like women will always have to bear this brunt of being a witch and, you know, singing curses when in reality, is that what they're doing or is it a product of someone's action instead? It's fascinating and it absolutely incenses me, the idea that still to this day people will, as you pointed out, you know, right towards the latter years of this relationship and beyond, people would not talk to her, would not stand near her. It's just abhorrent, it's absurd. And well, sometimes I've joked as well that it's a shame that the worst witch was taken as a title because that would be the only surely a witch, even if we're just using common sense, a witch would have everything she ever desired. If Kathleen Moraine had been a witch, it would be a short story because Gavin Maxwell would have fallen in love with her, they would have married in the early fifties and I would have had three years of my life back. It's, yeah, it's very sobering, I think, firstly, to realise how recent this is. I mean, this is, so the book that you're referring to of Gavin Maxwell's last book, Raven Seeks Thy Brother, is the one that refers to the curse of a poetess. And this is what Kathleen has carried the can for ever since. 1968, it's well within living memory. This is not something, I mean, in recent years we have had an official, forgive me if I don't get the terminology right, was that an apology or a pardon for the predominantly women who were accused, persecuted, executed for witchcraft in Scotland, that we think of this as something that belongs centuries ago in the dark ages, but as it appears, we're still living through them. And to the point that I know that a particular Facebook post or Facebook group, which I'll remain nameless, when news of the book broke that I was retelling Kathleen Rayne's tale, 99.9 per cent of the comments that I've received have been wonderfully supportive, wonderfully encouraging. But I have had a crazy witch. Now, I don't know whether that was Kathleen's crazy witch, whether it's me, whether it's a bit of both, but it just shows that there are people out there still believing this stuff. And I was lucky enough to be at the Mitchell Library just at the end of October there for a Halloween event. Mitchell, as we remember, had its Glasgow launch, and we were looking through the archives, looking through their special collections. There's just so much material of accusations, the most flimsy accusations you can imagine. And even, I don't want to fall into the tropes of it, it's because she's a powerful woman, it's because she's a healer, it's because this or that. This is just misogyny speaking out of target, however easy. And yes, what's infuriating but quite illuminating is that very often it is something that a man can be praised for. So as I mentioned in my author's note, what are we really basing this accusation from? Is it loss of temper? Is it creativity? Is it emotional volatility? Gavin Maxwell, Gavin Maxwell, Gavin Maxwell, you can say all these things about him as well. And he is one of our great author naturalists, and I can understand why people think that, but why does she become a witch? Why is she reduced to a witch? It is a trope above all else. We still see, as I've said in my own story, and I'm sure will be the case for many listeners as well, it is a trope that is all too easy for those who want to silence a woman in particular to turn to. So if one feared person thinks of Cathy Mayne as a witch, thinks of any woman that they disagree with as a witch, then the book will have done its job. It's so powerful also and so intense to be demeaned, the idea of misogyny and using it to demean women as well. But I feel like in the story also, I mean that one section where Gavin was paying rent or not paying rent to Kathleen, and then how it was his mother who paid the check, I believe, or wrote it out to her son. Yes, that really happened. That really happened. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I was also shocked at reading that, of this is another woman, you know, not acknowledging a woman in her power. It's just very, so demeaning that, you know, women being defined at that time by the men in their life. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you think of another thing that Sarah has taught me and pointed out is that you have to remember characters, they're not born in the year you encounter them. So as I've mentioned, the novel begins in 1949, but Gavin was born in 1914, Kathleen was born in 1908. So they are their own parents, that generation that instilled their moral values in them for better and for worse. They were victorians. And you can see that in that kind of perspective. And I think the relationship between Kathleen and Gavin's mother is a really fascinating one. And we will never know what Lady Mary truly thought. I think Kathleen, it really touched various nerves in her about social inadequacy and relational inadequacy as well. But in fact, you could flip it around and see, actually, this was by far, at that point, the closest another woman had got to her son, and she was none too happy about it. It's always sad to see, I think, in fiction and in fact, when women don't support one another. I guess we're all animals trying to survive, if not thrive, at the end of the day. And it does show how threatened somebody must be if they can't extend that solidarity and that generosity. So I would never use it as an excuse to condemn another woman. I think, rather, recognise how frightened, ultimately, even if it's manifesting in quite powerful and even aggressive behaviour, there's fear at the root of that. So that deserves compassion and boundaries. I can't bring it into modern day therapy speak. But yeah, I think it is a sad reality of feminist activism, of feminist perspectives through the ages. It's not going to go anywhere any fast, but I think we can, yeah, see it for what it is, see the fear that's at the root of that, as, indeed, it's at the root of misogyny, whichever sex it's coming from. Very well said, Kirsten. And I could also say as well that, you know, that one section, that one part where Kathleen's neighbour, after she had passed, after Kathleen was a caregiver for her, just gave her the house, which I found to be so beautiful and so lovely that this house had such a major impact on her life and on Gavin's life as well, where she eventually gave the house to him. And that whole part was just so shocking to me. So many parts of the story were very shocking to me as well. And then also, this is the time period of letters being lost in transition as well, and how, what would have happened if Gavin's letter had actually gone back to her as well, in terms of her being able to stay in the house that he gave to Gavin? Yes, there's something really hardy-esque. And again, this all really happened, this letter really did go missing. I think Kathleen understood it as perhaps ultimately quite sated. Again, she wouldn't leave the blame with Gavin for that. It would be, no, it's interesting, I think, because maybe this is a writerly way to think of things. It's like there are no true accidents in life. I'm not sure whether I believe that, but certainly plot-wise, you can see it's quite terrifying, really, to think of our own lives and think how much contend on what feels like quite a microcosmic moment. Yeah, and actually, it's interesting that you mentioned, so there are two Poulton Square houses. Poulton Square is in Chelsea, in London. This is where Kathleen lives, firstly at number nine. They briefly share this, and then she moves across to number 47. I have actually, just in the past couple of years, I have had an application in with English Heritage, along with Tenness, Kathleen's charity, who a percentage of my royalties will go to them. I'm still really sort of preserving the flame of her legacy. So we've had an application in for a blue plaque for Kathleen Rees at Poulton Square. And just last week, I got the letter after two years, and it obviously got pretty far, but she had not been shortlisted because, although they recognised her considerable achievements, her profile was not quite high enough. Now, you can imagine, no shade to English Heritage, but you'd think, you know what would improve her profile? Probably a blue plaque. But that is another reason to get her story out there, to get her words out there, because it's hugely frustrating. And I know that they are doing very valuable, very necessary work to amplify the stories of women in London and indeed everywhere. But otherwise, we are in that classic no-win for women. I don't know how we elevate a woman's profile without the opportunity to do exactly that. So another reason to kind of spread the word about this story, because there is a woman here of incredible vision, incredible achievements, and so few people have heard of her. And when we have heard of her, it's often for the wrong reason. I'll add to that as well. There is, of course, Gavin's book, Ring of Red Water, and the media adaptation of that, and of course, increased popularity of that book. Would you like for there to be an adaptation of Remember the Rowan from Kathleen's point of view? And what would you hope for it to achieve, if there wasn't an adaptation? Yes, please, if any producers, directors are listening, I could say that. Yeah, I think I am actually a very visual writer. I'll see the scenes first and then kind of write them down. And a few people have said to me that they feel the same. I think that perhaps maybe it's the drama of this relationship or actually the settings, the beauty of Sand Egg itself. I think it could work well on screen. And I have, in fact, written the script for Episode One. I can see it as a series. So I do have the script in my desk or actually it's out on submission at the moment. So watch this space. But I do think absolutely, because I feel Kathleen is owed a film because there was a posthumous film about Gavin Maxwell's life. So, as you mentioned, there's Ring of Bright Water, which, again, it tells the story in such a saccharine, tweeny way. Admittedly, I don't think Gavin Maxwell was very happy with it himself. And I've seen the comments on YouTube to this day. They're like, that stupid woman loves business, blah, blah, blah. No spoilers. But yes, she gets the character that is sort of strangely based on Kathleen gets a fair amount of hate, even to this day. But there was also a 1970s documentary about Gavin Maxwell's life, a documentary, quote unquote. And they do not even use Kathleen Ring to name. They refuse to name her. She is called, and the actress that plays her is credited as, the Rowan Tree Woman. So, I mean, and if you could see it, she looks, I mean, 20 years older than Gavin when she curses him. I mean, this is an impression that I would give her friends all the time. She's got the shawl over her head and she's coming up to the rowan. And it's just it's every trope you can imagine. And worse, it's an outrage. And I cannot believe it's so symbolic of the misogyny in this story that they won't even name her. And so I think she deserves it very much. She deserves something on screen where she is named and she is honoured in that way. It is also very shocking as well, this treatment of women that people don't like and misogyny. It's so awful how it's been done to Kathleen. But, you know, with this story, it's a really great trend and hopefully movement now for authors to be retelling the stories of women who have been left out of history, whether from myths, legends or real life as well. And I think you touched on it before, though, but, you know, what is your hope in sharing Kathleen Ring's story in this way in Remember the Rowan? Well, you know, it took us a while to decide on the final title. And it actually, I take my title from Kathleen Ring's words as well, from On a Deserted Shore, shall you and I, in all the journeying of souls, remember the rowan tree, the waterfall. So remember the rowan, very loudly credited in this piece, her words as well. But I think it's so interesting that when I chose that line, to see how remembrance echoes throughout the story in ways that actually when I was drafting it, I never fully realised. So above all else, I hope that readers remember the name Kathleen Ring when we're thinking of our great poets, when we're thinking of our great scholars, when we're thinking of our great women, when we're thinking of our great figures. So above all else, I want them to remember her in the way that she deserves. I love that so much as well. And Gavin Maxwell, you know, Ring of Bright Water and having the words taken from her poems. I love that in this way, front and centre, her own words, her own poems, etc. Everything is here. So it's such a great story. I loved reading it through this story so much. I felt everything. It was so beautifully written. And I really hope there is a miniseries or movie or whatever adaptation you would like there to be out in the world. Thank you so much. Yes, I could get terribly comfortable in that exec producer's chair. I mean, actually, I'm sure I would immediately be banned from set from interfering. But it's a nice story. And above all else, you know, the story is here. And yes, the more people that cherish Kathleen's words. And there was another passage from On a Deserted Shore, in fact, that I have pinned above my bed. And she writes of if someone was to open again the closed book of life in which this tale was told, would not some essence pass, some chords tremble into the harmony of the spheres, lingering overtone of the remembered music that was ours? And so I truly think having her voice and her vision out in the world can make it that little bit of a better place, which goodness knows we all need. That is very well said, Kristen. It was so lovely talking with you and speaking with you about Kathleen Lane's story, which will hopefully be broadcast in such a wide audience that everyone will know who she is and that that blue plaque will eventually be there in Chelsea in London. We can hold up a blue book outside and that will be doing our part. Thank you so much for joining the podcast. It was so lovely having you here. Oh, thank you for having me. Such a treat. Thanks, everybody.