Red Tape Specialist - Ep. 1

Red tape is excessive bureaucracy or adherence to rules and formalities, especially in public business. It can result in inefficiency, delays, and frustration. Red tape refers to rules and procedures that do not serve their intended purpose and create a compliance burden. Not all regulations are red tape, but when they become excessive and do not serve a purpose, they qualify as such. The host of the podcast, Sally, shares her own experience with red tape when her checks went missing in the mail and the postal service was unhelpful in resolving the issue. She felt frustrated and unable to get past the obstruction. Despite her efforts, the checks have never been found. Sally now avoids mailing checks and uses a different post office for any necessary mailings. Hello, and welcome to the Red Tape Specialist Podcast. I'm your host, Sally Diebold. What is red tape? According to the dictionary, it's excessive bureaucracy or adherence to rules and formalities, especially in public business. As in, this law will just create more red tape. The origin of this term dates back to the 16th century, when actual, literally red string was used to bind the most important documents that required immediate attention by the government at the time. Wikipedia talks about red tape and how it can be defined as organizational rules, regulations, and procedures that perform no significant social or administrative function. Formalization and red tape continue in force and result in inefficiency, pointless delays, and frustration. Another red tape definition that's been looked at defines it as rules, regulations, and procedures that remain in force and entail a compliance burden, but do not advance the legitimate purposes the rules were intended to serve. The compliance burden refers to the effort and time it takes to comply with a rule. And the functionality, the second component, refers to the perceived degree to which a rule, regulation, or procedure serves the purpose it is intended to regulate. And when it doesn't seem to serve that purpose, we often refer to it as red tape. Not all regulation is red tape, because regulations are necessary, question mark, that might be a further discussion. Do we need regulations for a functioning society? At least we've agreed that some of them are at this point. But when they become excessive and don't serve a purpose, that's when it becomes red tape. I have more than 26 years of experience working for a government agency. And the office I work in reviews and issues permits, so I am part of the red tape, perhaps. And that's why I've used the name red tape specialist to describe what I do, hopefully jokingly. As within the government agency, I'm also subject to often ridiculous and nonsensical requirements as a government employee. In addition, I'm a citizen who has to have up-to-date government documents, pay bills, use the postal system. And as a disclaimer, I'm not speaking on behalf of the agency I work for or using my position in any way. So the point of this podcast is to hear your stories. Everyone has a story about trying to cut through red tape with varying amounts of success. So we'll explore those stories, talk about what we can do to be more efficient, calm, maybe even happy when we do it. We can share lessons learned with each other. And for this, our first episode, I have a very special guest. It is my mom. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Sally. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, I just turned 69 and I have clung somewhat to old fashioned ways of doing things, which you'll hear about in my story of red tape. But I'm learning and I'm trying to adjust but not do too much. All right. So I gave a little bit of a dictionary internet definition of red tape. What's your take on that? How would you describe it? Well, I was very interested to hear your definitions and especially from a person who inflicts red tape on situations. For me, red tape has always been when I encounter something within usually the government that I can't get past. So it's like red tape to me, it's like, well, I can't go any further with this problem. Yes, I think that's a good working definition of it. And you recently had a situation that came up that I think falls into the category of red tape in one way or another. Tell us about what happened. Well, and it is, again, it falls under my definition of red tape. That's what I encounter. Personally, and as I said, I'm 69, do things the old way, and I have always paid my bills by check. And I never got the memo. It seems like everybody else is doing it online. But in the last eight years or so, I've had, I don't know, five or six checks go missing that have never appeared again. But this is intermittent over that long period of time. But one day, I mailed six bills at the post office, and none of them arrived. Oh my goodness. Wow. And of course, the way I found out was trying to pay something with my credit card. And you know, it's such a shameful feeling thing when they say, sorry, you've been declined. And it turned out you have to get your payment in, even if you have a big line of credit. And so that was my first indication that something had gone wrong. And then I started checking into it and also hearing from other vendors that I had tried to pay, or companies had tried to pay. So there were six. So I called the post office, the local post office, and they were saying, well, you'll have to talk to somebody else. And I thought, well, you know, six in one post office, that's fraud. Maybe something happened to them. Because over the years, we've heard stories about postal workers being overworked and even maybe throwing mail away. And I thought, okay, I can help out the government. This is a big clue. Maybe people have had things missing here and there from this post office. But six at once, that's big. And I would think an indication of something greater. So I had to call twice. And you called the local branch. Well, I called the local branch first. And they were saying they couldn't do anything. And I got in this loop where I got the U.S. government fraud number for the post office. And I called them and reported it. And they said, okay, you have the case number. And then I got a call from the post office where I'd mailed stuff. And they said, we don't have your stuff. And I thought, well, that's weird. But hopefully they're still working on it and trying to figure out what's going on. So I let a couple of weeks go by. And I called the fraud number again. They said, oh, your case is closed. And I said, why is that? And they said, oh, we handled it. It doesn't say why. And the guy, this is where I really felt the red tape. He was almost saying we did all we could do. And I said, well, can you escalate this? Because I thought this is a big clue for them. If there's a problem, this is something, you know, meaty for them to grab onto to check into. Six at once. That's huge, I think. But anyway, this guy wasn't having any of it. But he said, okay, I'll escalate it. But yeah, I'll escalate it. You know, he was kind of patronizing. Then I got another call from the local supervisor, identical to the one before, saying we don't have your stuff. And that was it. It's been over six months since the checks went missing. And they still haven't arrived. And so how did you feel at this point in the story? Well, I felt very frustrated. Because, of course, and this is another thing I would classify as red tape, but it's not exactly. But all the hold times, which I think are to almost discourage you from making your complaint. I do. On hold, I think, oh, I've invested 15 minutes here. I might as well just give it up. You know, maybe it's on purpose. I did not feel good about it. Because I did think it was a big clue. You know, a big thing for them to look at. Because I bet, I would be willing to bet that people who mailed one thing the same day I mailed the six, maybe theirs went missing, but they thought, oh, only one, no big deal. And it clearly wasn't important to them as much as you thought it should be, right? Yes. That's a really good point. That's a really good point. But then it does show my understanding of red tape in that I couldn't get beyond that point. I couldn't get them to do anything more. So it might not be the precise definition, but that's what I always think of when I hear red tape. It's something, like an obstruction. Right. And the way that they just closed it out, you know, maybe they did a little bit of something or maybe they did nothing and just closed it out without any real resolution. That's what it felt like. But I think their idea of resolution was calling the local post office supervisor and say, you got to call this woman. She's irate. Or maybe they weren't quite as nice. But it was interesting that I get the exact same, well, we don't have your stuff. You know, like, well, I think there should be more done. You know, like, are your postal workers unhappy? Are they throwing stuff away? Or is there a machine where things have gotten stuck? Or have there been other reports of the same location or something like that? Yeah. Yeah, that's really frustrating. So you said it's been, the time has passed. And has anything else happened during that time? No. And I gave it up. I gave it up. And I really had time to put it out of my mind until you asked me about red tape. And, you know, it's nice to be able to talk about it. But I had put it aside. I won't pursue it any further because I wasn't sure what else to do. I thought calling the U.S. Postal Department fraud department would be, you know, a key thing. And it wasn't. So I just, it's just one of those things that I just had to put aside. But it has been maybe a little bit longer than six months. And the checks have never shown up. I just think that's the most bizarre thing. And so I have them in my checking account. And now back to the checks. Now, of course, I don't do it. I don't mail them anymore. Okay. That was it. Switched it over. And if I have to mail anything, I go to a completely different post office. But yeah, it had been, let's see, it was November. So that's probably seven months. Right. Yeah. But nothing's ever, they've never arrived and no one has tried to like cash them or something like nefariously. No. And I did wonder about that and what I did to protect myself in case someone was, you know, I've heard of check bleaching, you know, using the routing number and the checking account number and then bleaching the ink off except for the signature, you know, and then write. I've heard of those kinds of things. So I have stopped using that account and I opened up another one for my online payment. Oh, okay. And the other account is sitting there and waiting for those payments to come in. You know, that's about all I have in that account. It's just for that. But that gives you an alert or you'd know right away if something was used there. Yeah. And I also thought I might hear from the companies that I was trying to pay, you know, like, oh, this has arrived. Well, I guess I'd like to ask, like, did you consider or did you go into the post office at all to talk to somebody? No, I did not. And I just wanted to ask that because I think that in a way I feel like if I can just talk to someone that maybe that would make a difference. And I just wanted to see if that was something that you thought of. No, I did not. I think at the time I was just so mad about it, it may not have been good. Oh, okay. I would like to approach them in a mad way because then their reaction, it probably wouldn't have worked. You know, I might have, you know, made them mad and then both of us mad, nothing would have been solved is kind of what I was thinking. And but that's a good suggestion. Had I relaxed. Well, I was going I did have this question here I was going to ask you, but I wasn't sure if it was appropriate. But now I'll go I'll ask since you kind of described how mad you were. And I wondered if at this point in the story, were you mad enough to say want to burn the post office to the ground? Absolutely not. No. Okay. Not that mad. I've never thought that. And I still have a lot of faith in the post office itself, even though in the last, you know, eight years or so, it hasn't been under the best management. But I still have some faith in them. But I also think that the more they raise their prices and the poor service they give, the more people like me are going to stop using them. I still will use them for like cards that I send, but then I always text the person, hey, I sent you a card. Did you get it? Because I don't trust the post office. But I have never thought of violence. Okay, mom, I didn't think so. But I just wanted to check. And since I, you know, my hope for this type of conversation is that maybe we can all learn something from it. Would you I guess, is there anything that you would have done differently? Let's see, looking back, looking back. No, looking back, I think I was doing everything I thought I'd do. And once I reached that, what I'm thinking, you know, that's the red tape barrier, you know, the second fraud call and the call from the supervisor that exactly repeated what he said before I thought this is bad. And I couldn't think of what else to do. Years ago, it would have been writing a letter. Who knows what would happen to a letter that is sent to the USPS about the USPS. Oops, it got lost. How did that happen? Well, I'm sorry that happened to you, mom. It sounds very frustrating. But you did also mention that you hadn't really thought about it for a while. So you do think you've let it go at this point? Pretty much. And the switch over to paying online for me has been fairly seamless. I had one, oh, I think it was a credit card they set up for payment. And I only did the last four digits of the account number. So I thought, well, that's all I need, you know, when I send it to them. And that check came back. So, you know, a little bit of a learning process. And I also talked to a lot of different people because there are a lot of different ways to do online paying. And I found what was best for me. And, you know, I might eventually go to the auto pay, which other people, you know, have said really helps them, especially if they're traveling for a long time. Right. Yeah. But so that was, there was some growth from this, you know, came a little more into this century. All right. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that story. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Well, I do have to say that you were key, you yourself were key in giving me advice on how to, you know, switch, make the switch to paying that way. And you also probably were, you allowed me to vent about that. So thank you for that. Well, you're welcome. And I think that might be a key component of dealing with red tape is is venting, because sometimes that's all you can do. Like you got into a point where there was, you didn't know anywhere else to go with your issue. And what else can you do but complain about it to somebody else. And it is not my, I don't know, 10 or 12 check mailings per month isn't hurting the post office, you know, by me not doing that. So, you know, it's not like I'm getting my revenge by going elsewhere. Take your business elsewhere. Well, thanks very much for sharing your story. And we are going to take a quick break. Welcome back to the red tape specialist podcast. This is Sally Diebold. And I'm here with my mom, Martha Diebold. In the first half of our show, we heard a story from from mom about dealing with the post office. And now it's my turn. And I'm going to share about getting my passport renewed. And some red tape that I encountered during that process. So this was about a year ago, my passport expired. And I wanted to renew it. And I didn't have any trips planned. So I wasn't wasn't in any hurry to get it renewed. And I had read that it could take about 12 weeks to get get a new passport. I figured I've got plenty of time, no worries. And I got all my application materials together. Very meticulous, as I've learned from you, mom to check off the list and make copies and all that. Now one thing that's interesting is that to get the passport, to pay for it, you have to send a check through the mail. Yeah, so I don't have any personal checks. I haven't for a while. But you could use a cashier's check or whatever the other one is money order. So I went to the bank got a cashier's check. There's a fee for that. But you know, this is all all something that I wanted to do. Put everything together. And sat back to wait for my 12 weeks, hoping that my passport would show up. And I was checking online because the State Department, I believe is the agency, you can go on and supposedly you can put in your name and it will tell you like a tracking number and the status. And I periodically went on to check and mine never came up. So I was, I was a little concerned about that part. But I also thought, you know, maybe it's just not in the system. We will, you know, get it when we get it. About the 12 week mark, I get a letter from the United States Department of State. And it says, thank you for your request. The documents you submitted to this office are being returned to you. And enclosed with this letter was my cashier's check that was torn in half. So I thought I wasn't really mad about that part. I figured somebody opening the mail, there are going to be mishaps, you know, and maybe you're stuck on something and they pulled it out of the envelope and it got ripped. But that's all this letter said, is what I just told you. Thank you for your request. The documents you submitted to this office are being returned to you. Know why, know what to do next. And then it has for general passport information, visit us online, which as I said, I've been doing. So I wasn't sure what to do because, you know, when I first mailed it in, not only did I mail the check, but my old passport and application form, there was a whole set of documents for that application. But all I got back was the check. So I didn't know, do I just resend the check? Or are they going to send me back the other things? So I didn't know what to do. And I called to see if I could get an answer. Well, I did not get an answer, you know, spoiler alert right there. So I talked to someone and they said there, she said there was nothing she could do. I asked if there was someone else I could talk to, you know, that maybe could look at my file, you know, thinking they've got to have a system and they could pull it out and say, here's what's next. And she said, no, no one can look at my file to answer a question about it. Here's the option that she gave me, mom. I could send them a letter asking my question. And it really made me wonder, like, this was last year, 2023. And number one, they don't take online payments. And number two, you can't get a status of your application. And so I had to just figure out what to do. I think she even mentioned that maybe they'd send the other documents back to me, which made me worry that then maybe they'd cross in the mail and I'd be out more. I did go back to the bank and they just reissued me a new check. They didn't charge me again, which was really nice, you know, because I had it all right there. So I mailed it in. I'm pretty sure I did FedEx this time, mailed it in. Let's see, about three weeks later, I get another letter. And it says, thank you for your application. In order to continue processing your request, please submit the following, a check or money order in the amount of $130. The payment you submitted was less than the $130 required. And reading that, I just felt such, like, frustration, because I had a copy of it. It was $130 that I sent in, the exact amount. But then I get this letter. And so I was trying to figure out, what did it mean? Did it mean maybe they did not get the payment at all? You know, and so just instead of saying that, they've got this weird bureaucratic way of saying it, you know, that it's less than the required amount. Did it get lost? I mean, I had the tracking from FedEx. Did somebody steal it? You know, as you wondered about your checks, because the cashier's check or money order, now I don't remember for sure which one it was. But that's, like, cash, even though it's made out to somebody. I think, you know, there are ways that that can be used. So I was really in a difficult spot where I was like, what do I do now? I knew that calling wasn't going to make any difference. I wasn't going to get any help there. And I didn't want to send in more money, because I'd already sent it, right? So I think the good part was that I didn't have an immediate need for my passport. And so I just wanted to, you know, I wanted to get it, of course, but it wasn't immediate. So I really spent a lot of time, a lot of brainpower, like trying to figure out what to do about this. Game it out and all these things. I mean, in these, there's no place to go down in person, even if I had wanted to. It's somewhere, they've got different offices across the country that take different applications. Then, a couple weeks after that, I received my passport. Your new one? My new one. Wow. So I guess I just waited it out, and they figured out which file the check went with, which application, and they sent it to me. So between that second letter telling me I didn't have the right payment to getting it, I was just not sure what was going to happen, that I didn't know if I could figure it out. Well, can I ask you a question? Yeah. Did you want to go burn that place down? Almost. I mean, that's almost the feeling. I mean, you know I'm not prone to violence either, and maybe it's more of a figurative question. Sure. But I think that gets to the level of frustration where there's just no other options that you know of to get what you're looking for. Well, and start to finish, how long did it take you to get your passport? Do you remember? So 12, it was probably about 16 weeks, four months. Okay, wow. And I'm not sure if I did get into some like, you know, stuck to somebody else's application or, you know, not logged in. Because, I mean, one of the things that I want to kind of offer to the listeners when you're going through things like this, you talked about venting, which is good and has its benefits. But you also have a lot of information online on the internet. And so I had searched for information about, you know, getting a passport. And I'm, have you heard of Reddit? Yes. Yeah, so it's a site with, I mean, pretty much any topic, you can find somebody that has a group or thread about it on Reddit. And they had some things about renewing passports. And a lot of it was talking about tracking it online, you know, looking up your, getting your number and your, the number means a certain thing of like where it is and how long it's going to take. And I never got that because I had checked a number of times and I never saw that online, which makes me think maybe it was just sitting there for that first 12 weeks. Nothing happening. And then when they opened it up, oh no, we lost one. Ripped the check. Well, another way the users can look at red tape is that it's, there's no visibility. You had no idea what was going on behind the scenes, especially in your case. I mean, my case is just like, eh, we've done all we can do. In your case, it sounds like there was something going on, but you couldn't figure it out. I mean, it ripped up checks. That's bizarre. Yeah, it was. And I think you're right. It's a slightly different take on red paper. I was waiting for a product or decision from the government agency and not, you know, I wasn't sure if I was going to get it. And I wasn't sure what my recourse would be either because, you know, the calling wasn't very fruitful. I mean, probably if it had gone on longer, I might have tried to call again. I think that places like that, you know, I get a different person on a different day and maybe there's a way to get a little more help from somebody else. But yeah, it was pretty touch and go for a while. I wasn't sure if I was going to get it. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps they were doing an in-depth background check or something? And that's why it was held up, but they couldn't tell you that. Maybe like random background checks or something. Because it does sound like a long time. But they couldn't tell me because then it would tip me off. Yeah, I guess that's possible. But, you know, I had a passport before and this was just a renewal. So, as I understand it, that's a more streamlined process. You know, when you get one for the first time, they require more documents and maybe a little more in-depth review. So, I guess it's possible there was something. But when I think about, say, my own office, where we receive requests and then respond back to them, and there have been times when something just falls through the cracks that it could have been, I mean, we get things electronically for the most part now. There's a little easier tracking and somebody can fill in if somebody's out. But, you know, it could have been an envelope that got stuck to another envelope or it got put on somebody's desk and that person was out of the office for a month or something like that. And then somebody said, oh, we should check Bob's desk. Look at all this mail. So, those are just some things that I think about. And that is one thing that I try to do when I am dealing with a frustrating situation like that is as much as possible put myself in their shoes a little bit. And, you know, when I was thinking about things to talk about on this podcast, I was thinking of all sorts of things, like anything medical that you have to do can be a lot of calls or wait times or talking to the cable company or the Internet. Provider, any of those. And by that dictionary definition, that's not technically red tape, right? Because it sounds like it's really focused on the government putting requirements that are a burden. But it might be, you know, it's kind of the same feeling I get dealing with some of those other things. What do you think? I don't know if this is helpful in our cases, but I always try to be as nice as possible because I know, like you said, they probably have hundreds of calls a day and people yelling at them. And I also monitor myself and if I sense any frustration coming through, I'll say, listen, and I'll always use their name. Listen, Juan, I'm not mad at you. I know this isn't your fault. I'm very frustrated with your company because of such and such. And I have actually even said, now I hope this is one of those recorded calls and they're listening to how you are handling this because you're handling this great. I'm very frustrated with the company. And it seems like I can, I don't know, it seems like people are nice with it. They appreciate that, you know, and I don't know if nicer translates to more helpful. It could. Yeah, I think that's a great suggestion. And I try that as well. Like, I'm sure you've heard somebody say that people can hear if you're smiling or not. And I try to remember that, especially when I know it might be a little contentious or I'm calling about an error or something like that. I really try to smile and, you know, be calm and friendly as much as I can. That's a good idea, the smiling thing. Just as long as it's not something mournful or sad. True, yes. There'd probably be some other ways to moderate that if needed. Yes. Yeah. Any other questions about my passport adventure? I did get the passport. I did use it since I got it. So all is well on that front. Well, I just wanted to underline your panic because you had sent them your passport. So you have no passport. I mean, even if it was expired, you know, proof that you'd ever had one. And that just sounds especially dire. Yeah, I agree. That's a good point. And, you know, I had made copies. So I don't know if a photocopy of my passport would have done anything if I needed it to. But yeah, you're right. I'd sent everything off and no idea of what was going on with it. Scary. Yeah. All right, well, let's take another quick break and we'll come back and talk a little bit more. All right, welcome back. Now, mom, in this last part of the podcast, I wanted to talk about something actually that you brought up. And you had talked about calling into customer service. And I can't remember if you were talking or chatting and you wanted to know if you were chatting with a human. Oh, yes. Yes. I had called the number for this company that was on the bill. And I got in this menu loop and it would ask me for information and I'd give it to them. Oh, yes. Yes. I had called the number for this company that was on the bill. And I got in this menu loop and it would ask me for information and I'd give it to them. Oh, yes. Yes. I had called the number for this company that was on the bill. And I got in this menu loop and it would ask me for information and I'd give it to them. Oh, yes. Yes. I had called the number for this company that was on the bill. And I got in this menu loop and it would ask me for information and I'd give it to them. So I did ask and I chatted with three different people for this issue. And I say people with air quotes. And each one I did say, are you a real person? Or are you AI or something? And they always assured me, yes, they were a real person. Right? Okay, so because you had this thing got me thinking, and it's similar to a red tape that you have to get through to get something done or talk to a real person. And so I asked people on Facebook, what question would you ask to tell if you're talking to a human or an AI? If you're chatting or on the phone? Do you want to hear some of those? I really do because I would have no idea. I'm interested. And some I don't know if they would work. All right. What's your favorite dessert? Who let the dogs out? How do you feel right now? Serious question. Now that one I don't know, because I think an AI could easily be trained to answer that question. How do you feel? I feel great. How do you feel? You know, kind of like that. So I wasn't sure if that would get at it. Well, the thing is, probably with any of your questions, once someone has asked them and the people on the other side realize, they could program, you know, oh, my favorite dessert is apple pie. I let the dog out earlier, you know, just have these questions. And so anytime anybody would ask the question, they could program the answer. So you're saying you can only ask the question once. And since these questions are already on Facebook, they're already out of date. But maybe you could tweak it a little bit. I want to talk about a couple others and see what you think. Here's one that says, I usually either ask something interpretive, like what is what does your logo of your business mean? Oh, nice one, which I thought was interesting. Or say some nonsensical things and see if they try to make sense out of it. That one, you could vary that one for sure. Garble. Here's another funny one. If a train leaves New York going 75 miles an hour and another train leaves Chicago going 100 miles per hour, when will Pete Rose get into the Hall of Fame? That's a great one. I mean, I don't know how effective it would be, but it's a funny question. Yes, I do, too. And one of them was a little more technical. There's something called the Turing test. Yes, and so it's kind of a famous thing of how to discern between human or robot or AI. And when I looked it up real quick, it was like asking, you know, something about literature, like compare and contrast, like this literature with a song or something like that. And that got me considering a little bit more of the question I was asking, because then I'm like, well, what, I guess you need to have an expectation of how an AI would answer versus how a human would answer. So for that, maybe actually the human would say, like, oh, I have no idea. I've never heard of that book or that author. And the AI would give you a whole, like, essay on. Oh. I don't know. Might be the opposite of how it used to be. Okay. Here's a good one that I thought was interesting. I won't. Well, it says, why are you so effing stupid? And that if you insult with profanity, an AI will answer the question, but a human would get offended. That's good. So bring some emotion into it that AI shouldn't have. Yeah. That's interesting. I like that take. Huh. Yeah, I thought that was pretty interesting, too. But then you've offended the person and probably won't get what you want. And they'll flip you over to the AI. That's right. You get the chat bot. The question I thought of when I made this post, just to get the discussion started, is what are you wearing right now? Wow, that's interesting. Because in order to program answers for that, they have to have either very, very generic clothes or male, female. I'm wearing a dress. I think that's a good one. Here's another one. What's your favorite deer style and why is it Saison? Who do you think suggested that one? Was it my son? Yes, it was. The brewer. Yes, it was. Well, I don't know. I don't know if that one would work or if he was just trying to be funny. Well, you know he was trying to be funny. Of course. But it might work. It could work. Well, that's about all I got. I didn't get a whole lot of answers. When is the takeover and who leads the revolution of humans against machines? Well, here's a question that occurs to me. If the AI is capable of solving my problem, why do I care? You know, I just, I felt odd doing the chat because I've only done that a couple of times with other companies. So that's why, and I've been frustrated by the menu, the automated menu. So I wanted to talk to a real person and get some answers. So that's why I asked that. But if AI is programmed to handle problems, if it's capable of understanding my question and fixing it, I guess I shouldn't care. I mean, that's a good thing to think about, too. Yeah, what difference does it make? Or would there be certain situations where you definitely would want to talk to a human versus the AI? Yeah. Well, a coda to my AI chat or, you know, when I asked that question. At the end, I said, well, I would like a record of this. And they said, well, you complete the survey and we'll email the whole chat to you. And they never did. Oh, no. And so I was left wondering because there had been a whole bunch of stuff that they'd just thrown at me. And then they talked, so I hadn't read through it carefully. So I ended up calling it again. And I guess I called it a better time because I got thrown into a queue and actually got to talk to a person. But from start to finish, because of the hold time and the menu time, it was over 30 minutes. Yeah. So, you know, whatever they're doing, this company, you know, isn't good. Yeah. Yeah. Either way, if it's AI or not. And that's interesting. I think that there have got to be some definite advantages to using AI for those types of situations. For example, this is more work related, but I had to call in to our travel agency because I had a question. And as far as I could tell, I couldn't do anything about my issue online or do it myself. So I called the number and it said the wait time would be like 57 minutes. Wow. And I could do, you could do like a call back. And so I did that. I think it was about three hours later. I still had not gotten a call back. So I called again. And like the second time I called, it didn't tell me how long the wait time was. It just, you know, put me into the hold. And what happened two times was that while I was on hold, I got another call that I had to take at work. Oh, no. And so what I tried to do is like, you know, put it on hold on my side, take the call, keeping an eye on it, hoping, you know, I could just go back to it and not lose my place. And I think I got disconnected. It was like the third or fourth time that I called. And, you know, I thought I had a pretty simple question. I would have been fine talking with an AI or doing it on a web portal, you know, myself. I don't know why that wasn't available. But I think there could be some ways to cut through the red tape and be more efficient as the AI improves. I agree. And that sounds like a good conclusion right there. All right. I guess we can end it on that note. Mom, thank you so much for joining me on my podcast and sharing your story today. Well, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it, and I was honored that you asked me to, you know, relate my story to you. All right. Well, until next time, that does it for the Red Tape Specialist Podcast.