Jon Benet Ramsey Part 2

In the podcast "Serials and Schemes," hosts Sam and Sandy discuss the case of JonBenet Ramsey. They cover the events following JonBenet's death, including the police response, the ransom note, and the discovery of her body. They also explore the media's influence on public opinion and the various conspiracy theories surrounding the case. The autopsy revealed signs of sexual abuse and raised questions about the timeline. The lack of clear suspects and the presence of unidentified DNA further complicate the investigation. The hosts speculate about the involvement of JonBenet's brother, Burke, and the possibility of a cover-up by her parents. Welcome to Serials and Schemes. I'm Sam. And I'm Sandy. This is a true crime inconspiracy podcast. Our podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Hello and welcome back to Serials and Schemes. If you're new here, hi, I'm Sandy. And I'm Sam. If you guys tuned in last week, then this episode is for you. If not, we would recommend going back to last episode and listen to know what's going on. But anyway, today we'll be picking up where we left off last week with the case of JonBenet Ramsey. That's right. We left off with the heartbreaking events of Christmas 1996, where JonBenet's life was tragically cut short. In today's episode, we'll cover what happened in the immediate aftermath of JonBenet's death, the police response, the infamous ransom note, and some of the key details that had left investigators scratching their heads for years. Plus, we'll explore how the media shaped public opinion and dig into some of the wild conspiracies surrounding this case. It's a lot to cover, so let's dive right in. Yeah, so when we left off, it was the morning of December 26, 1996, and Patsy Ramsey had found a ransom note on the staircase. This note claimed JonBenet had been kidnapped, and it demanded $118,000 for her safe return, a strangely specific amount. Right from the start, the investigation was complicated by a series of missteps that would come to define this case. Very strangely specific amount, might I add. Like, how did they know what the bonus was? Yeah. How the hell did they know that? But anyway, after finding the note, Patsy immediately called 911 at 5.52am. The Boulder Police arrived within minutes, but their response was anything but standard. For one, the house wasn't properly secured at the crime scene, so friends and family were allowed to come and go as they chose. Contaminating potential evidence offers us even more evidence that JonRamsey and a family friend searched the house later that morning, which led to critical discovery. That's right. Around 1pm, JonRamsey, along with his friend Fleet White, went to the basement and found JonBenet's body. She was lying on the floor of a small windowless room, wrapped in a white blanket with duct tape covering her mouth. Her wrists were bound with cord, and a garotte made from a broken paintbrush handle was still around her neck. This discovery should have led to immediate lockdown of the scene, but instead, Jon carried her body upstairs, further compromising forensic evidence. But, this was a turning point. Up until that moment, the police had been treating the case as a kidnapping, focusing their efforts on the ransom note and potential outside intruder. But, with JonBenet's body found inside the house, it became pretty clear that this was a murder investigation. Unfortunately, much of the crucial evidence had already been disturbed or otherwise destroyed by that point. The content of the note is bizarre too. It's unusually long for a ransom demand. With oddly theatrical language like, we're a small foreign faction, it also included instructions that seemed designed to waste time, such as warning the family not to contact the police, even though Patsy called 911 immediately. Many have speculated that the note was staged either to throw off investigators or to support a cover story. And, I can understand why. Handwriting experts later analysed the note and concluded that it was unlikely to have been written by JonRamsay, but could not rule out Patsy. That, combined with the note's origin from within the house, has led to endless speculation about whether this was a legitimate kidnapping attempt or part of an elaborate cover-up. Now, let's talk about the autopsy, which revealed some critical details about JonBenet's death. The official cause of death was determined to be asphyxiation caused by strangulation, along with a skull fracture. The garrote around her neck was made from a cord and the broken handle of a paintbrush, which was found in Patsy's art supplies. Well, sorry, it was used from Patsy's art supplies. She was an artist or painter or whatever. Yeah, like she was in her craft room. Yes. In the craft room, eh? I think so. Yeah. I mean, I don't know where it was in the house. Potentially it was down in the basement, but I don't, I couldn't imagine Patsy going and having all her stuff down in the basement. Yeah. But the garrote was literally made from something, all the parts were from inside the house, so it's not like anything was falling from it. And like everything, like the note, the garrote. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, we'll obviously be talking a bit more on it soon, but also, like, if you think about it, she never left that house. Yeah. The random note says that she'd been kidnapped, but she had never left that house. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I've said this before in the previous episode, no, I don't think I did, but it would be the perfect crime novel. Like, if it wasn't within the family, it's kind of genius to use their supplies and their stuff. Well, I mean, if it wasn't the family that did it or had anything to do with it, the actual killer has sure made it look like it was, and there is still speculation to this day, 30 years later, that it was that they were involved. So if they weren't, like you say, perfect crime. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much. Now, the autopsy also revealed something even more troubling. There was evidence of prior vaginal trauma, suggesting that JonBenet may have been sexually abused before her death. This finding has fuelled countless theories about who the perpetrator might have been and their potential motive. There were also marks on her body that some investigators believe were caused by a stun gun. However, this theory is disputed, as others think that the marks could have been from another object, like a toy or some household item. The autopsy left many questions unanswered, and the lack of definitive evidence has made this case even harder to solve. Yeah, another significant finding was the lack of evidence pointing to a clear suspect. No foreign DNA was found under JonBenet's fingernails or on her body, although a small amount of unidentified DNA was discovered on her underwear. This was later tested and found not to match anyone in the Ramsey family, which added another layer of mystery to this case. I feel like this one could be explained by the fact that in recent years, forensic investigations have revealed that trace DNA found on clothing items, including those involved in criminal cases, can sometimes be attributed to contamination during manufacturing. Studies have shown that DNA from factory workers or individuals handling garments during production, packaging or shipping, can transfer to the fabric and persist even after the clothing has been washed. This finding is significant in the context of the JonBenet Ramsey case, where unidentified DNA was discovered on her underwear. Critics of the intruder theory have suggested that this DNA might not belong to her attacker, but could instead be a result of incidental transfer during the garment's production. Such possibilities highlight the complexities of relying solely on trace DNA evidence and emphasises the importance of considering contamination as a potential factor in forensic analysis. But the autopsy also raised questions about the timeline. There was undigested pineapple found in JonBenet's stomach and this suggested that she had eaten shortly before her death, even though the Ramseys claimed she had gone to bed without eating again after their Christmas party. A bowl of pineapple was found in the kitchen with Burke's fingerprints on it, adding fuel to theories that he might have been involved in some way. It is clear that he was not the golden boy. And an element, you know, we feel sorry for him. Yes, absolutely. Because he was just a nine-year-old boy. He would have just been a kid. But my, I guess my theory is that maybe he was, to his, I don't know, maybe just to like, in general, sorry, as a general standard, he maybe wasn't loved enough. Maybe JonBenet snatched a toy out of his hand that he got for Christmas. And he's like, that's another thing she's taking from me. And, you know, he acted. And then, you know, what if the parents covered up? I'm just saying. When you look at the autopsy and they said that there were marks on her body that some people have said, it's done, done. And some people have said, oh, it could have been a toy. She was six years old. She could have done, you know, playing with toys, fallen over, you know, kids were always. And she was always bruised and marked up, mate. Like, they were always playing rough and falling over and scratching something, you know. Yeah, exactly. But then you can add in that, yeah, Burke, and it's Christmas Day, and there's toys for him, toys for her, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, if we're going with your theory, then that all could actually match up. I mean, like, I can, like, I think we've talked about this theory before, like, obviously at length. And I feel like, I don't know, I wouldn't, I'm not encouraging covering up murder here. But, like, I wouldn't not understand if Patsy was like, fuck, I've lost one child. I'm like, no way. We're not losing another kid. Yeah. You know. I mean, also, that's ridiculous. He was nine. There was nothing that was going to happen to him. A hundred percent. But in that moment, I've never been in that moment. You've never been in that moment. We don't know what we would do. No. We can theoretically say this is what we would do because she's acting stupid if that's what she did. Yeah. But we have no idea. A hundred percent. You know, you're out of fear. You react. And then once you've done it, like, you've staged all that shit. Now what? You can't go back on it now because now you're going to end up in prison. A hundred percent. So, maybe that's a hell of a thing to die on. I mean. Yeah. A hundred percent. Well, with all these findings, the ransom note, the garage, the evidence of prior trauma, and the unidentified DNA, paint a picture that's as complex as it is heartbreaking. But the investigation was plagued by mismanagement from the very start. And as we'll see next, the media's involvement only made things worse. Yeah. Media plays a huge role in cases like this. From the beginning, the coverage of JonBenet's case was intense, with tabloids running sensationalized stories. At times, it seemed like the public was more interested in the Ramseys' private lives than the actual murder. The murder of JonBenet Ramsey quickly escalated into a media circus. Within hours of her death being reported, local and national news outlets began covering the story, with an intensity that only grew in the following weeks. The public was captivated by the combination of tragedy, mystery, and the glamorous image of the Ramsey family. Photos of JonBenet in her pageant costumes, doled up with heavy makeup, big hair, and glittering crowns dominated headlines, sparking debates about child beauty pageants and parenting. Her image became the focal point of the case, reinforcing the perception of her as a tragic, angelic figure. The media's fixation on the family's wealth and the prominence also fueled public curiosity. The Ramseys were affluent and lived in a sprawling, Tudor-style home in Boulder, Colorado, a detail that tabloids and cable news channels never failed to highlight. Their seemingly perfect, picturesque lives became a point of fascination, and later, suspicion for the public. Totally. And I feel like media, and society in general, love to hate on retrieval. And so when shit like this happens, I feel like they hone in on the stuff. And they blame the, yeah, that. With everything that I've said, obviously, with my theory, it's like fucked up that there was such a witch hunt for them, when it's all based on circulation. And yes, it doesn't look great, but there's no fucking concrete evidence. Yeah, it's such a hard thing. The media obviously did have a huge part to play in it, but it's also, and I don't like bringing in race and all this stuff, but their white, rich family, living in this beautiful home. And so, I mean, if it was the other way around, and we might negotiate this out, but if it was the other way around, if it was a black family, black, poor family, those parents would be in prison. There would have been no questions, there's no investigating that for 30 years. For one, we don't give a shit because they're black, so we're not going to waste resources on black people, especially back in those days. But also, they're not going to check them in prison. Yeah, 100%. Because it's different. White people, it's innocent until proven guilty. Black, other way around. It's bullshit. Yeah. With that said, the media created this larger-than-life narrative, and that affected how people viewed the family, as media does. Patsy Ramsey, for instance, became the prime target. The constant media frenzy did not help the investigation, and even led to some wild conspiracy theories. The intense media scrutiny quickly turned into a narrative-driven frenzy. Patsy Ramsey, in particular, became a primary focus. As a former beauty queen herself, and a mother who introduced JonBenet to pageants, Patsy was vilified in many reports. She was depicted as a controlling stage mother who lived vicariously through her daughter's achievements. Some outlets even suggested that her obsession with perfectionism could have contributed to JonBenet's death. I'm sorry, but I... We've talked about that before as well. Like, potentially, if Patsy was involved, maybe JonBenet's like, I don't want to do this anymore. You can see that argument that would have ensued. You know, that, yes, you are going to do it. Because I think she was living vicariously through her daughter. Yeah, I'm sorry, but like, any mum who is bleaching their kid's hair at that age... From age, was it four? Three or four? Yeah, I thought it was three. Yeah, yeah. Like, any parent who's willing to do that, and I'm not trying to talk shit here, I'm not a parent myself, but like, I just feel like that's... Just that she's doing what it is you set out for her to do. Like, she's had no autonomy in that. At that age, there is no autonomy. Your parents dress you, they decide what playgroups you're chilling in. Patsy knew when she was... Well, actually, I don't know if they had ultrasounds back then to say what the sex was, but as soon as she knew that she had a girl, she knew the life that she was going to live. 100%. Yeah. The character assassination was exacerbated by television footage of the Ramseys, including their emotional interviews in the days following the murder. Critics argued that Patsy's demeanour seemed rehearsed or overly dramatic, while others interpreted her grief as guilt. Like, who the fuck are people to interpret how others express their emotions? And also, I love that people were like, oh, they're overly dramatic. I'm sorry. Her fucking child was just murdered. Yeah. Whether she knows who did it or not, her child is dead. Like, you can be as fucking dramatic as you want if your child has died. Yeah. And like, listen, the whole like, you know, interpreting her guilt or her grief for guilt. And it's like, but also, what is she guilty of? Like, does she maybe feel, I don't know. There's a lot of things about that where it's like, maybe she feels that I put pressure on my daughter. I didn't let her live the life that she wanted. Who knew she was going to be taken from me at six years old? There are many things. And again, like, I've always been on this like, Burke theory, and I believe that she may be covering it up. But like, it doesn't change the fact that she was a grieving mother, even if she did do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just think it's, no matter what, she's still a human being who grieved her kid. Yeah. And like you said, she could be guilty of so many things, and that could just be an internal guilt for, maybe I should have checked on her before bed. Yeah. Maybe I should have, when I heard that noise, I should have got up, you know, any of that sort of thing. I should have done more. Yeah. And mums, good mums are always going to feel that. If there is, if something happens to their kids, they're going to feel that guilt. So, you know, she probably did in some way or shape or form. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. The tabloids and talk shows jumped at every chance of affect to every word and gesture, often ignoring the lack of concrete evidence against her. John Ramsey also faced his share of public suspicion, but the narrative often paints him as a distant, career-driven patriarch. The media speculated about everything, from his financial success to potential connections, that could have influenced the investigation. Burt Ramsey, John Bonet's nine-year-old brother, was not said either. And I'm guilty of this. Some reports insinuated that he might have accidentally caused John Bonet's death, despite the lack of evidence to support this theory. Again, guilty. Exactly. And the media's involvement also played into the idea that there were hidden, powerful forces involved in the crime, whether it was the Ramseys, a pedophile ring, or a larger conspiracy. The media's sensationalism didn't just focus on the Ramseys. It also fueled a culture of wild speculation and conspiracy theories. Every new piece of evidence, or lack thereof, was analyzed and reframed to fit narratives that range from plausible to outlandish. For example, some theories suggested that a pedophile ring had targeted John Bonet, a theory bolstered by the cryptic nature of the ransom note and the alleged signs of prior abuse revealed in the autopsy. Others posited that John Bonet's death was the result of an accidental injury during a heated family argument, which the Ramseys then covered up, which is more on the lines of what you believe, you know, maybe an argument between the two kids, or like I said, maybe an argument between John Bonet and Patsy, and then accidents are made, and it happens. The only thing that kind of flocks with me, like, this is the thing that turns the Burke thing upside down a little bit, and it's the prior sexual trauma. Yes. That's the only thing I think, yeah, that'll be the only thing that kind of deters me from that theory. You don't have to be mutually not inclusive. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And like, it doesn't expressly say that something had happened to her that night. It just says prior. Prior, no, I know. I mean, it could have just had, you know, there could have been just some, I don't know, damage. Also, again, they don't know. If they've had no, they've got no DNA from inside her because it didn't happen that night. So something like, again, she's a six-year-old. You can fall. When I was, I must have been about six or seven, I was swinging. I was standing on a swing. You know, the swing and slide set with the A-frames on the side. So I was standing, swinging back and forth. But these are the old-school ones, not the plastic shit that we've got now. It's, like, chained right down to the, the whole thing's chained. There's no plastic around it or anything. And then there's, it might have been a plastic bottom or wood, maybe. And I was standing on it swinging, and I slipped and fell. And literally, there was, like, a little rusty nail kind of pin type thing at the bottom that literally cut inside my vagina. Like, so I'm just a six-year-old just swinging. And it went through my clothes and cut me. So you go and check that out, and it looks like I probably had, well, I did. I had vaginal trauma. Like, that is what that is called. But it wasn't sexual. So, and there's, I mean, I, assumably there's probably scarring there. Well, there would have been when I was young. Sorry, this is all so stupid. But, like, I would never even think twice about that kind of thing happening to a girl. Yeah. I would never. Only because it's happened to me that I look at this, and I go, you just don't know. She's a six-year-old. I was six. You know, you do stupid shit. I suppose, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Anyway. Television networks and tabloid magazines capitalized on their theories, creating a feedback loop where public speculation drove media coverage, which in turn shaped public perception. The idea of a larger conspiracy involving powerful individuals gained traction when the case stalled, as many people found it hard to believe that such a high-profile crime could remain unsolved without interference. The rise of 24-hour cable news in the 1990s also played a pivotal role. Networks like CNN, MSNBC, and others dedicated hours of airtime to the case, often with legal analysts and pundits offering conflicting theories. These experts sometimes muddied the waters of the investigation, pushing unfounded claims or emphasizing circumstantial evidence. The introduction of online forums and message boards added another layer, as amateur sleuths shared their own theories, some of which were picked up by traditional media outlets. Another important thing to note is how the media coverage actually influenced the investigation. The Boulder Police Department was under enormous pressure to solve this case quickly, and the media's focus on the Ramseys made it very difficult to investigate other leads objectively. The media's relentless focus on the Ramsey family arguably influenced the direction of the police investigation. Boulder Police initially leaned heavily towards the theory that someone in the family was responsible for John Bonet's death. This was partly due to the unusual nature of the ransom note and the fact that the crime scene didn't appear to show signs of forced entry. However, the intense public scrutiny meant that any misstep by the police was magnified, adding even more chaos to an already compromised investigation. At the same time, leaks to the press became a significant issue. Confidential details about the case, including elements of the autopsy and ransom note, were leaked to journalists, fueling speculative headlines. Some of these leaks came from within law enforcement itself, as competing agencies like the Boulder Police Department and the District Attorney's Office clashed over how to proceed. This infighting made it nearly impossible to present a unified front, and the investigation suffered as a result. I mean, for fuck's sake, like, authorities fighting with each other is so, so counterproductive. Yeah. And just, don't we all want the same thing at the end? At the end of the day. We just want to know what happened. Who gives a shit who finds it out first? It actually just disturbs me, though, how much politics is actually in, in police and authorities. Like, you see this all the time in American cases where FBI's like, well, this is our jurisdiction. And then police are like, well, no, actually this is ours. And it's just, it's like you're wasting time. We should all work together. A hundred percent. You're wasting time. Yeah. FBI walks in, cop goes, no, it's my case. Okay. Well, you know something about it. So how about you work with us and we're going to work with you. Yeah. And no, there's so much, like, shit throwing when it comes to that, like, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to mark my territory. This will be mine. And it's like, the fact that, I mean, like, I know I understand a reward system because obviously it motivates people. But on the other end of that, it causes all of this, like, superiority and this competitiveness when, like, the baseline of what their fucking job is is to get fucking justice. Yes. Yeah. Guys, like, absolutely. Yeah. I just can't. No, I totally, totally get it. Well, I totally don't get it. I get our stance on it, but just the fact, the way that they do that makes no sense. The JonBenet Ramsey case remains one of the most infamous examples of how media coverage can shape a criminal investigation and public perception. While the media brought attention to her story, it also added layers of complication that arguably hindered justice. One hundred percent. One hundred percent. The media turned this case into an absolute spectacle. And in doing so, it not only shaped how people viewed the Ramseys, but also how future cases would be covered. The balance between informing the public and sensationalizing tragedy is still one we're grappling with today. In 2025, people. Like, this is still going on. Yeah. The police infighting, the media scrutinizing, and sensationalizing, like, there's just, there's always such, like, a tug and pull between it. You know, like, it's just. Yeah. Yeah. Especially with these high-profile type cases. Yeah. But it's like, they, they, they need the clout. So it doesn't matter. What's also fucked up is how easily many journalists removed themselves in, like, a human way to fucking sensationalize a story. Yeah. Whatever self. Drama self. A hundred percent. Yeah. But even the way that, like, like, defense attorneys, this is obviously a different conversation, but, like, the way that defense attorneys will, like, victim blame and sensationalize every poor decision a person makes leading up to their death or, or whatever. Yeah. Like, it's, it's actually pretty fucked up how people can remove themselves in such a, like, from such a human thing. Yes. To prove a point, to win something, to win a case, to, you know, to get the scores. Yeah. The murder of JonBenet Ramsey has become one of the most infamous and enduring mysteries in American true crime history. Part of its longevity stems from the many conspiracy theories that surround the case. These theories have captivated the public, fueling countless books, documentaries, and online debates. While some are rooted in evidence, others are more speculative, yet all contribute to the case's mystique. The intruder theory is one of the most prominent and plausible explanations. Probably the one we all want to believe. Yeah. Yeah. It's the only one we can stomach. Yeah. Because anything else... It's just too, it's just too horrific. It's... Yeah. It's like, it's all fucked up. I want to believe it's outlandish. It's like, it's all possible. It's all fucked up, but like, that's fucked up. Like, this just seems like not one of them that's all fucked up too. But like... It's just more easily digestible. Yes. Yes, it is more digestible. So, this theory suggests that someone broke into the Ramsey home and was intending to kidnap JonBenet, but the plan went tragically wrong. Proponents of the story, sorry, of the theory, often point to an unidentified DNA profile found on JonBenet's clothing, as well as a broken basement window, which could have served as an entry point. Further supporting this idea is the presence of two unidentified shoe prints in the basement, and the appearance of the garotte used in the crime, which investigators believe may have been crafted at the scene. Well, obviously, it's fucked up. I mean, however, skeptics argue that there was no clear sign of a forced entry, and question why an intruder would go to the trouble of writing a long and detailed ransom note. Um, to buy time. Yeah. Because they would, surely they would know that, I mean, not know, but it would take the investigators a long, like, they have to detect every part of that note. Yeah. Also, that note was not written by a man. No. Men don't write three-page letters. I'm sorry. It's like the, it's like the, that Times version of, like, the way that women Google search shit now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, for sure. So, it's, yeah. I, I forgot about the unidentified footprints in the basement as well. So, but then I also, I don't know. It's such, it really is. But then also, this is early 90s. They probably didn't lock doors and stuff back. Back then. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what it was like in Boulder, Colorado. I know around here we wouldn't have. I wasn't in New Zealand. We definitely locked doors at that time. South Africa. South Africa's a little bit of a different story. South Africa, we were locking doors and the security gates and letting the security know we're going to bed. So, yeah, I don't know what that's like. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, maybe it was still a lockable thing, but I just can't, I can't look in through the basement window. I can't imagine the basement window big enough, but potentially. But then how, then they got back out. So, where was the glass? Was it inside? Was it outside? Was it both? You know, there's so many. This case actually just fucking pisses me off. Yeah, it does piss me off. It just fucking pisses me off. Despite being officially cleared in 2008, suspicions about the Ramsey family linger for many. This theory suggests that the murder was either an accident or intentional and that the family orchestrated a cover-up. Key pieces of evidence fueling this theory include the unusual tone and content of the ransom note, which many believe was written to deflect suspicion. Linguistic analysts have pointed out that the note mimicked phrases from movies and appeared unusually long for a legitimate ransom demand. Theories often focus on individual family members. Patsy Ramsey, some theorists speculate that Patsy, JonBenet's mother, may have accidentally harmed her daughter during a moment of anger or frustration. Supporters of this theory cite her use of similar language in the ransom note and her demeanor during public appearances as suspicious. To be fair, we've mentioned that as well, having a disagreement with a six-year-old. Go on, dude. But, she looked beyond her six-year-old years and treated her like she was. And she would have grown up fast in the pageant. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Burt Ramsey, others suggest that Burt, JonBenet's older brother, might have been involved. I don't, I'm going to reiterate that he was nine. People go, oh, her older brother, and it makes it sound like he's some, like, late teen, you know, older brother. Yeah. He was nine years old. He's just a baby. Yeah. Um. The contrast is enough. He was a child. Yeah. Like, when I'm saying that he may have murdered his sister, I'm not saying that he maliciously, Not in cold blood. Fuck you. Yeah. You know, he may, might have been involved, perhaps during an unintentional act of aggression. Proponents of this theory often cite his behavior during interviews and the family's reluctance to let him speak to investigators immediately after the murder. Critics of the family theory point out the lack of physical evidence tying any Ramsey family member to the crime and emphasize the findings of external DNA on JonBenet's clothing. So, obviously, there are possibilities. Yeah. And it was also kind of debunked that DNA on her clothing. Not debunked it, but a possible debunkment of it being through manufacturing. Yeah. And I think we probably have less of that nowadays with a little bit more hygiene involved and a lot more standards now. Yeah. Also, with regards to, like, it being sus that the family were reluctant to let Berk speak to investigators, a reminder. He was nine years old. Thank you. Louder for the people in the room. Yeah. Like, there's, I just, they circulated over a child, like, and I have done the same thing, but it's from a different place. Like, it's not like, oh, yeah, he's a fucking psycho. Yeah. Like, it's not like that. No. I'm just, you know, like I said before, what if it's a lack of love or a lack of acceptance or acknowledgement or any of those things? Or just an accident. Or an accident. Like you say, it was Christmas Day. You know that they've got toys. Look how rich they were. And sugar. Sugar. Late nights. Yeah. They had an apple with milk at the crack of dawn. Yeah. So, they were probably full of sugar too, you know, like. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. And, and also, as a parent, my child's sister has just been murdered. I'm not going to chuck him in the middle of the fucking investigation and be like, answer all the questions while you're grieving. No, fuck that. Let him grieve. His little sister is gone. And there's also no way a child is not going to fuck up if there's some stupid, like, like, it's got nothing to do with actual murder, for example. Do you know what I mean? And then, like you were saying before about DAs, they all run with that. Let's not forget to mention entrapment. Yeah. Everybody. And that happens a fuckload in America. Yes. Yeah. There's just no, there's no good reason to have him in the middle of that investigation. Absolutely not. Yeah. They would, no matter why they didn't let him, they were good parents for not letting him be involved in those investigations and interviews. The high-profile cover-up theory posits that the murder was committed by someone outside the Ramsey family, but within their social circle. Potentially a powerful, connected individual. And the case was mishandled deliberately to protect them. Proponents argue that the Ramseys' wealth and prominence in Boulder, Colorado may have shielded them from intense scrutiny. I mean, did it? Or diverted suspicion away from influential acquaintances. That's, that's the hill I'm on. I think that there is a ring. And I think that the cops are involved in it. And I think that's why the whole investigation was fucked from the beginning because they were hiding some important people. Yeah. Hear me out. What if all of it's interconnected? Like, as in, like, fuck my theory, fuck the book theory. What if John Bennett, John Bennett Ramsey, was a part of a pedophile ring? What if him and his friends all got together and did weird shit, right? And what if he decided to put his daughter, put his daughter through that, as well? And it went wrong. And so him and his friends are like, fuck. And Patsy's like, well, fuck. That's my money source. That's who's given us everything. What do we do now? I, I, I think that. Yeah. Something that we haven't put in, in our stuff, like, for this episode and last episode, there was, when we first did it, Yes, there was, and Fleet White, that, that goes in and finds her body, too. Yeah. He's, people have said, and he's one of their neighbours, Yeah. and they were like, look into him, but we haven't really put anything in here, but there was some shit, Wait, I'm going to go back to my last year's, our last year's research that we did on this case initially. Guys, this is our third, fourth, the 52nd time trying to record this, these episodes. We've had some shit go down. I don't believe in everything, but we've had, we've had flickering lights, we've had unusable Sound. Sound. We've had, yeah, it's been all over the place, so. It's been wild. We have tried, and, and, and it's so hard to make sure we're remembering to say everything, because we've said it all before, so like, it was like, wait, have we ever said that, or are we just randomly repeating ourselves? Um, sorry, I'm trying to, oh no, it's not Oswald, sorry, it's Gary Oliva. Oh yes, Gary Oliva. So, um, Gary Oliva, what, like, he has extensive criminal history that dates back to nearly, like, back nearly three decades. So in 1990, Oliva was arrested in Oregon for sexually abusing a seven-year-old girl. Yeah. In May of 1991, while on probation for this crime, Olivia threatened to kill, sorry, Oliva, Oliva threatened to kill his mother, Anne Freitag, attempting to strangle her with a telephone cord at their home in Grants Point, sorry, in Grants Pass, Oregon. Um, according to a 2019 Daily Mail article, the Oregon Department of Corrections wrote in a report during the course of assault, Oliva threatened his mother, saying, I should have killed you a long time ago, and made other threats to kill her. Damn. So, Oliva, And he was one of their neighbors. I think so. I'm trying to look here. It says, Oliva fled the house. He spent 17 months in jail for attempted murder. 17 months for attempted murder hardly seems enough. It doesn't sound American to me. But listen to this. That's something that New Zealanders would do. Yeah. You attempted to murder your mum? We're putting on house arrest with your mum. It was attempted murder, so you're right. House arrest with your mum. When you succeed, we'll, we'll come back. So, after his 17 months jail time, he moved to Colorado after his release. So, after John Rene was found, um, I think he was kind of zeroed in on a little bit as well. Yeah, well, that's got their, like, lists of child sex offenders and stuff, I guess. Exactly. But he was cleared after the murder. I'm sorry, he was cleared after his DNA were found to not be a match. There was no fucking DNA, except for, and her, going through that. But, if the DNA on her underwear was from manufacturing, then there is no DNA to match to anybody. So, actually, fuck the DNA theory in general. Yeah, the true DNA doesn't actually help in this case. Let's just pretend there's none. Yeah. Because that's, there isn't, really. And then, now we'd start again. In my professional opinion. Further down, I'm sorry, like, obviously I'm going down our old, I'm sorry, I'm going down our old, I'm sorry, I'm going down our old, I'm sorry, I'm going down our old, I'm sorry, I'm going down our old, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,