The Paint Pod Cat Croxford

The PaintPod is a podcast where artists are interviewed about their life and work. The host, Sarah Hodkins, interviews landscape painter Kat Croxford. They discuss their experiences as artists, including their background, creative process, and the intersection of art and business. Kat talks about growing up in a creative family, her decision to pursue art full-time after working in finance, and how her corporate background has influenced her artistic career. They also touch on the importance of marketing and planning in the art world. OK, we are now recording. Well, welcome to the PaintPod, where we dive into the vibrant world of art through chatting to amazing artists about their life and their work. I'm Sarah Hodkins. I'm the muralist at Charlotte Designs and now a podcaster. Today, my guest is the wonderful Kat Croxford, who is an expressive landscape painter working in Buckinghamshire. Welcome, Kat, and thank you for being here. Oh, hi, Sarah. I'm really chuffed you asked me and I'm very excited about today. I'm excited, too. I think we've got a lot to talk about. I'm just going to say that. A bit of background. I met Kat a few years ago on the set of Landscape Artists of the Year. I'll just pick that name up, shall I? I wanted to I want to talk more about that later, because obviously there is further developments on that. But in doing my research for this podcast, I have realised one very important thing that I didn't know about you. You're painting trousers. Do you wipe your brushes on them as well, just like I do, because they look exactly the same as mine. Yeah, I mean, they're closer than the paint pot. They're so much easier, isn't it? I mean, I actually wipe on my shoulders, my belly, whatever's going. Here. It's here. I think it's here. Above the right breast is my kind of wiping place, honestly. It's a very bad habit and I have had clients tell me off about it. But I used to cry when I saw that picture. Honestly, I did. I did a workshop last week and someone actually thought that they were a patterned trouser. They're not in their own, obviously. Maybe that's an outlet for us. Should we ever require one? I think so. You know, complete fashion design. Everyone's going to want one. Absolutely. OK. I'd like to start off by just talking a little bit about your background. I think it's really interesting to understand how people's upbringing has kind of led them to where they are now. Now, interestingly, you grew up, it seems, in a family of artists. I did. I'm dying to know what that's like, because obviously my poor children, I do worry about them all the time. Well, it's brilliant. And your children are very lucky. Thank you. Yeah, my mum was an artist and my brother, who's younger than me, he just used to look himself in his room and just draw for hours, huge sort of scenes of war, lots of soldiers. And, yeah, we'd come home and mum would have created a whole load of paintings and there'd be paint all over the carpet. So she'd be quickly cutting the paint out of the carpet before my stepdad got home. So, yeah, so it was always just a natural thing that we did. You know, we all drew, we all painted, we all got messy. And actually, funnily enough, my mum used to do lots of murals as well. She's just around the house. We'd come home and there'd be something completely different on the walls. Now, we lived in rented houses most of the time. She left them every time we moved. How fantastic. She was an intense artist. Yeah, she was. And actually, it's thanks to her, really, that I paint. You know, if it hadn't really been for her, she started a wonderful business called Joe Daisy Studio, where we taught people how to paint. And that sort of, that allowed me to concentrate on teaching and painting and, yeah, and then sort of find my own teaching, find my own painting voice. Yeah, fantastic. So, growing up with a creative mum, how did that affect your, I suppose, the beginning of your creativity? I always worry that there's pressure on kids of artists to be creative and whether that can sometimes be a bad thing as well as a good thing. How do you feel it helped, or indeed not, you in the early days? Well, yes, of course, because to rebel is to not be creative. And I guess, actually, that's what I did. So, I ended up actually not going to art school. All I wanted to be, actually, was a pure artist. And my school sort of more encouraged people to be graphic designers and architects. And I wasn't really feeling that. And I just thought, you know what, I've watched my mum struggle all these years as a struggling artist. I think it's probably good if I make a pragmatic decision and go into finance. So, actually, I did something completely different. If that was my next question, what were you doing in the corporate world of finance? You see, I would never have guessed that in a million years. I tell you, I love numbers. I love order. And, actually, my roles within, I sort of worked in financial services. I also worked in consultancy businesses. But, normally, I was training people and also working in the glamorous world of compliance, which is all about checking and dotting I's and crossing T's. And, honestly, I get a real kick out of that sort of detailed analysis. You are a rare beast, Kat Croxham, because there are many artists who love numbers. I mean, I can't bear them. In fact, I would say I'm number dyslexic to a point. Oh, I love them. I love the beauty of maths. It's a whole art. It is another, you know, artistry. And, actually, this is what stood me apart from my mum. My mum was a totally emotional abstract painter. I mean, she did some tree scapes as well, but she really developed into a very, sort of, really painted with her heart, whereas I'm more of a draftsman, I think, and I end up being a little bit more ordered and analytical. So, I think that's where we sort of diversified or, you know, created our own. We're different, very, very different artists, even though same family and, you know, same job in the end. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How interesting. So, what was the catalyst? What took you out of financing into art as a full-time career? Was there a particular event? Yeah. So, it was, I was working in quite a high-pressure job in the glamorous world of telecoms, and my mum was running Joe Daisy Studio, this amazing thing that she created for nothing, just teaching people and running a lovely studio in South Oxfordshire. And I started to help out with some teaching, and then I thought, you know, I'll just give working a break, and I'll just, you know, immerse myself in art for a few months. And that was, oh, that was, what, 16 years ago? I never went back to the corporate world, and I just immersed myself in painting and teaching. And actually, the teaching was what I was doing more of. And then in the last sort of 10 years, I started to do less teaching and started to develop my own practice more, and then find myself here. That's a really interesting story. And how do you feel your career in the corporate world has helped you now as a practising artist? Now, that's an interesting question. I think, I'm not sure. I'm not sure it has, but I suppose it must have done. I guess, dealing with people, as artists, we can become very insular. So, building communities, talking to people. I think, and also, as you know, as every artist has to be, you have to be a business person as well. So, you have to look at your numbers. You have to be strategic. I make sure every year I sit down and plan, you know, what my goals are for the year. And I think that discipline was born out of working in the corporate world. And, you know, I often look at my business in quarters, you know, and do quarterly reviews. So, I think some of that side has definitely leaked over from corporate. And that sort of desire to be really professional, because people are investing their money into your work. So, you want to make sure there's a really good professional edge, they have the confidence in you that you know what you're doing, and that you're someone that they can invest in. You know, and I think that's so true. I think what a lot of artists forget is it doesn't matter how good you are at what you do, but unless you have that grounding in business skills, from wherever that comes from, it's really, really difficult to make a sensible living from it. I think so. I think there are more and more resources out there, I think, to help artists start up. And I mean, and this podcast, Sarah, I think is a genius thing to do, because it's going to give people who are just beginning, you know, an insight into what they have to do and how to create a good business. Because, you know, like we both know, unfortunately, it's not just a case of paint it and they will come. You have to really, really hustle. And actually, sorry, I was going to say, with COVID and the pandemic really taught me how to hustle as well, really, to how to, I don't know whether hustle is the right word, but to be to be more, have more of a marketing edge, think actually about what I'm saying, what I'm communicating, not just with my paintings, but how I talk to my, hopefully, my prospective buyers. And that helped me, that helped me definitely give me some time to think about that. Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think when you said about what your job in finance is giving you now, if I was in sales for many years and I still have a sales board on my wall, that's so ingrained in how I operate. I have a sales board on my wall. I don't, you know, I don't worry about it if I miss a, I mean, I make new targets up, you know, if I miss one, I don't worry about it. I know it's going to tell me off, but I just, I don't know, I find it useful. Definitely, definitely. And planning your time, you know, I mean, Sarah, you sort of work in this sort of, you know, it's almost like when you do your murals, it's almost like someone is sort of there, you know, there must be a lot of pressure on you to get that done within a certain amount of time. So you've got to, you know, when you're working on commission, you've got to be sort of almost visible and know exactly how you're planning it, what you're doing. And with any project, you just have to know where you are within, you know, within your work and sort of flow, as it were, in order to know what it is that you can achieve and what you can do. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. OK, I want to talk more now about your creative process. I'm very interested in everyone's creative processes. You know, we've mentioned landscape artists. Just watching those, well, it's eight people in a pod now, and how different everyone's process is. It's very, very interesting. Now, you're best known for your tree pictures, your lovely, expressive sort of brush stroke. I don't know, does it have a name? Does it have a proper name? I don't, I don't think so. Several people have called it several different things. Not all of them, particularly. I'm not going to use it again. We don't need to label it. No, we don't need to label it. That's absolutely fine. But I also noticed on your website that you have some very, very detailed floral pieces on there, which are quite a different style. And I'm interested as to which is your style? What style do you feel most connected to? Um, so they sort of feel like the same style to me. And I know, I know they don't look the same at all. But the idea, so someone, yeah, someone said to me once, you know, you paint in all these little squares. And I was like, no, I don't. Really? Do I? And then I look, oh, yeah. So it's not a conscious thing. It just happens to be the brush I use. That's what I think. And all I'm, all I'm thinking is, how do I break up colour? How do I break up form? You know, that's what's driving me. So when I'm doing the florals, I think, how can I break up this colour? So all I'll do, because it tends to be smaller marks than foliage, is I'll angle the brush in a slightly different way. But actually, I still, I'm still using the same brain. I'm still using the same bit of my brain to think, how can I make a series of small marks when you step back imply something else? Now, obviously, the florals are more detailed and they do take longer and the marks are smaller, but it still feels a similar process, even though the sort of ultimate image is actually quite different. And do you prefer doing one to the other? I prefer doing the trees. Actually, I've moved on. I love doing the florals, but they, because they are more detailed, they take me longer and they can be a bit frustrating as well. So I haven't done, I haven't done any florals for a few months now, actually. So I'm so, I'm so focused on the trees. I'm not doing much. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense to me. Makes perfect sense. So when you wake up in the morning, how do you decide what you're going to paint today? Do you have, because, you know, we've already mentioned you're quite an organised person, quite a, I don't know, you like things in a certain way. Systematic. Yeah. Systematic, great word. That's a very good word. Do you know what you're painting? Do you know what you're painting today, next week, next month, or are you very much whatever takes your fancy that morning? I think a little bit of both, but probably a bit more about the planning. So this time of year is super busy. So I've got exhibitions. I've got one starting tomorrow, actually. I've got two art fairs. I've got another exhibition and then an open studio. It's all before May. So I have to plan it all out. So I plan out what sizes I'm going to do and approximately what week I'm going to do that size. And it gives me a framework so I can monitor and make sure I'm not going to end up with one week to go and have to panic. And, you know, I'm never going to paint enough paintings under panic mode. If I do, they're going to be rubbish. You know, you've got to feel it. So I will have the shape or the size planned. The subject matter is normally just there, because I have to plan that as well. I plan going out into the woods in autumn, early spring. You know, whenever the light's good, I try and plan days where I'm in the woods taking lots of photographs. So I always have a resource of material. And then sort of I work that week based on my plans, but also based on how I'm feeling. So if, for example, you know, I've got to do some small 60 by 60s and I'm feeling in a really big mood, then I'll bump it. And I'll stick a canvas out the window. So, yeah, so I'll move things around. But at least I know what my plans are. So if I bump something, it gets done at a later date or if I'm bringing something forward. So that's roughly how I work. What it means, though, is I certainly at this time of year, I don't have much time to play or take risks, which I miss. But I know I'll get to do that. Yeah, yeah. I think it's such an important part of an artist's tool bag is that time to play, that time to experiment. And I think if you don't get that, it can start to feel... I certainly feel like I'm caged, I'm boxed. I kind of feel like I'm not... I feel like I want to break out, you know. Definitely. Definitely. You sound like you are the same. You need that kind of time to fill up the cup, in a way. I mean, I don't know about you, but if I'm forcing myself to do something, I don't paint very well. Yeah. It doesn't feel right, does it? So you can put as many plans in place, but if it's not there for you, or if you're putting yourself under pressure, or you feel like you're in that box, then you're not going to paint very well. Sometimes I don't know I'm painting very well. I'm not painting very well. It's about halfway through. And in fact, there's a painting I've just destroyed, actually, that I've already spent three days on. And it's knowing when to leave the table. And I'm like, you know what? This isn't going to work. This isn't going to work. And it's been liberating completely covering it over with black and starting again. But I was forcing it. There's that pressure to get it done. So I'm glad you're the same, because I think you have to be in the zone, don't you? You have to feel it. Definitely. And it took me quite a long time, I think, to realise that. And I know, certainly, in the early days, I took on projects that I probably shouldn't have taken on because they didn't excite me. And now I'm much more selective. And if I do a project, it's because I want to do it. And I'm really excited by the prospect. It makes such a massive difference to the quality of work that you produce. It really does. But it's also a point of success, isn't it? So I think, you know, we all take on stuff maybe that we wouldn't have normally. I can certainly think of some commissions I would say no to now, because, you know, you're starting out on this career. You've got to keep yourself in wine and food. So I think as you get more successful and certainly more well-known, or you create more of a bigger body of work, particularly with commissions, people can see what you do. And it's easier to be selective and choose the projects that you know that are going to excite you. Yeah, definitely. Now, this might sound like an odd question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. It is a completely genuine question. And that is, and I'm thinking about the tree paintings now. How do you stop them from looking samey? Because they don't look samey. They all have their own personalities, but yet they're all trees. They're mostly all woodland. How do you get them looking so individual and so different? Wow. Well, that's an amazing thing to say about them. Thanks, Sarah. I'm really chuffed about that. Yeah. Do you know what? And sometimes I get to the point where I think I've done them all. I've done all the tree scenes I've got in me. They're all, you know, I'm going to start repeating. But it's because I take my inspiration directly from real life. And nature is chaos. And nature is wonderful. And even the same tree, even the same three or four trees, each season will look different. And each year will look different. And each different time of the day will look different. So that's probably why. So I don't tend to paint the same scene twice, or at least from the same photographs. But I might paint the same area a couple of times, sometimes unknowingly. But I think, yeah, I think it's because of taking it from real life that helps it to feel different. And yeah, so each scene is so unique because of that. Actually, this is one of the things I love about the tree scenes, or actually any landscape, is that you're capturing that moment in time that's never going to exist again. And you're a magician putting it onto the canvas. You know, it's just this wonderful, you know, sort of capturing of something, you know, of maybe a memory and maybe a, you know, sort of just a turn of the earth, whatever it is, a rise of the sun. And it makes it, it makes that unique. And I think as long as I keep doing that, then they'll continue, hopefully, to look very unique and different to each other. Good. Well, long may that continue. And I think there is almost a coming together. I think, you know, you're absolutely right. It is about capturing a moment. But as you say, it's the time of year, the time of day. It's you being there and being able to capture it. It's you being at the right angle. There's a lot of things that have to happen that have to make that perfect moment. And then you have to reproduce it. So it's, if you think about it, every painting is almost a miracle in itself, isn't it? I agree. And actually, this is one of the things I say to my students, you know, because there's always that fear at the beginning, you know, particularly if you're new to painting or you haven't painted something like this before. And I always say to my students, you know, you're going to create something unique. Whatever happens, you know, it's an expression of you. Even if you don't like it at the end or it isn't what you thought it was going to look like, you know, the actual practice of creating that painting is also capturing that unique moment as well, of this interaction with you as a vital human being, you know, sort of expressing on the canvas. However it comes out, you have brought into existence something that never existed before. It's a wonderful thing to do. It is. We are very lucky, aren't we? We are extremely lucky. I love my job. It's my job. I have to remind myself of that sometimes. We are very, very fortunate. How do you know when a painting's finished? Because I would have thought with a style like yours, it can be quite tempting to just keep going. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? Another thing I say to my students is be a lazy painter. See what you can get away with. So, the point being, you know, don't keep stepping back from the canvas. See what illusions you can create with the few amount of marks as possible. So I try and use that philosophy of finishing a painting. So I think it was somebody who said this to me, which is no painting is finished. It's just abandoned. And I really love that. I love abandoning it and just going, right, yeah, that's done. That's done. And then make it a stranger. So leave it for two or three days. Yeah. And then let it just jump up in front of you. And then you'll be like, oh, God, no, that tree looks ridiculous. Or, you know, something will be really obvious. Or maybe the paint is a bit thin or something like that. But, yeah, abandon your painting. Be lazy about it. Oh, yeah, it's probably done. And that's the best thing I can think of. No, and I do agree with that. I often leave things on the easel for a week, sometimes even months, and just live with it and see what I like and what I don't like. Unless you say something will jump out and grab me and make me want to rework it. Or it's done. Or it's in the bin. Absolutely. I was going to say, sometimes it's a case of, you know, sometimes you get really attached to something and you can't see the good for the tree. Horrible. Sorry about that. But sometimes you can't see, actually, that it's not very good. You know, you sort of have an inkling. I'll get attached to something and I'll be like, yeah, there's something wrong with it. And then I can say that's when you have to cut ties with it, hide it and then go back to it later. Which brings me quite neatly on to how, where do you go for feedback and how do you incorporate feedback into your creative process? So it used to be my mum. My first feedback loop was my mum. And generally, whatever she said, I'd do the opposite. Mums and daughters. But I mean, I knew my mum very well. And I knew her painting language very well. So I wouldn't necessarily do what she suggested, but I'd get a feeling, you know, from her. And the other person I ask is my partner, actually. He's brilliant. He's really good. And he's pretty brutal in a good way. You know, he's not just going to say, oh, yeah, that's lovely, darling. Well done. Yeah, absolutely. You need someone to, sometimes he doesn't say anything. You just see it on his face. But I can't get him to say all he's spent four days on a painting. But I override everything. So if he doesn't like something and I actually love it, I'm like, yeah, no, he's wrong. But if I'm asking for his help, then I know something's not quite right. So he's not an artist either. No, I'm going to ask him that. Yeah, he just says, I just want to be able to walk into them. If I can't walk into them, I'm not interested. So I know what his aim is. So, yeah, that's my feedback loop, really. It's difficult, actually, because my mum died about 18 months ago. So I miss her input a lot. Yeah, she was a force of nature. So that's difficult. So I definitely am lacking more of that loop. And I think this is where you go to the community as well, where you talk to other artists, maybe not specifically about one particular painting, but perhaps comparing ideas about process, even just state of mind, or some of the things that we do that we're chatting about here. I think that is a good feedback loop, even if it isn't just about specific painting. It just gives you that reassurance that, yeah, OK, I'll keep going. I'll hold my own. And, yeah, I'm feeling confident. I think that's where it's useful to reach out to your community. Yeah, no, definitely. I completely agree. I think the trick is just to not take it to heart too much and to remember that you're not painting for that community, you're painting for you. You're dead right. Yeah, and that's really important because you've got to love it. It doesn't matter if no one else, it doesn't really matter if no one else likes it. And I've got paintings that I love and they've never sold. And I cannot understand it. But, you know, I'm not. And in fact, actually, sometimes it's good to get negative feedback because it tests how, tests your strength of convictions about what you're doing, because you've got to have a strong idea about how you work and you've got to feel confident in it because you have to be able to bat away, you know, the bad comments, which we all get. Yeah. And being an artist is about questioning. It's about questioning of ourselves and asking questions of our audience. So to me, having that negative feedback is almost a part of the process in that you've got to know when to take it on board and know when to ignore it and power on because you've got that vision of what you're trying to achieve. Definitely. It's a real conversation, isn't it? And I think whether it's good or bad, and again, something my mum used to say, if someone walked past her work and didn't say anything, she felt like she failed. For her, absolutely. It was all about, you know, creating a reaction. In fact, actually, the one behind me, I know we're on podcast. So yeah, so she would, you know, create work. And again, she wouldn't create work to stimulate, you know, people. Like we said before, you don't tend to create work in order to get a reaction, as it were. It's not about other people. But if your work is just being ignored and you're not inspiring a conversation, then you've got to think about what it is that you're doing and why. And why you're doing it. Absolutely. Yes, that's an important question. I've just got one more question about the sort of creative process, and that is about your use of colour. When I look at your paintings, they are yummy. They are just, I mean, I almost want to eat them. I feel the same. Food and paint is the same thing, isn't it? The colour palette are just yum. How do you approach your paintings and approach the colour palettes that you use? Again, does the planning side come out? Are you planning what colours you're going to use? No. You're shaking your head. Yeah, no. I wing it. So again, I start the painting. I mean, I know my colours really well, and I have every single colour. One of my favourite... Do you use them all? No. No, I don't. I know. I know. So I feel a bit sad for them, actually, because they're sat there. There's a whole range sat there, just all lonely. There's one colour. I think it's called Phthalo Turquoise. Anyway, I loved it about five years ago, and I bought a load of it and never used it since. But because I work in acrylic, I do have a lot of colours, because I don't want to do any pre-mixing. I want to mix on the canvas. And I think about it as speaking a language, so I'm really familiar with some of my pigments, some of the words. I know how they're going to fit together. I know how they're going to mix. I know how they're going to look. So there's probably a core of eight to 15 colours that I always rely on. But I don't care. I just see what happens. Brilliant. No, I mean, that's fantastic. And I'm just... I love it. I love it. Absolutely love it. OK. We've talked a little bit about the sort of commercial side of your business, but I want to just talk a little bit more and go into a little bit more detail about that if I can. So talk to me about pricing. This is the... I know it's the artist's nemesis, but it's such an important topic. There isn't, or there are very few other careers where you're selling... gosh, we're selling part of our souls, for goodness sake. So the value of it is not just the price of the canvas and the paints and even just our time. There is more to it than that. Tell me about how you approach pricing and how you come up with... do you have a set pricing structure? I do. I do have a set pricing structure. And actually, I was really lucky early on in my treescape painting. I was taken on by Clifton Fine Art in Bristol, and they really helped me. They really helped with my pricing. They almost immediately put my prices up. I've been with them for about five or six years. And so they really helped, which is great. So they help with a bit of advice. And also, yeah, it's good to have somebody else to say, well, actually, because of this, because of that, there should be more money. Because it's very difficult, I think, as an artist to value yourself at a good level, because you tend to go, well, I can't believe someone wants my work. I mean, early days, early, early days, when I first started teaching, I would exchange it for chocolate or wine. I'd be like, oh, you love my painting. I'll just have a bottle of wine. You have it. You have it. You love it. So yeah, so Clifton helped me be a bit more professional about that. And then, as time has gone on, I have most of my canvases handmade. I now probably spend, where I might have spent one day on a painting, I tend to spend three, three or four. So definitely the investment of my time and my own money, or my expenses, at a point where you have to go, look, come on, let's just be serious about this. This is what she's paid. All your other expenses and this tax man and all of that, you've got to make sure that this is sensible. But similarly, you obviously have to appeal to the market that you want to sell to as well. So it is a balance, isn't it? It's a really tricky area. And I basically, my, depending on the size, my price is all, you know, standardised over sizes. So that helps as well. And you do, you do prints. And I also noticed, and I didn't know this until, again, I did the research this week, is you do, I saw a printed scarf, a silk scarf. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, why am I not doing this? Honestly, I got really excited about that a couple of years ago. Because, well, you know, I've sort of, again, I'm planning strategically. I don't intend to ever not be able to paint. You know, I'm never going to retire. I'm always going to paint. But it would be good to have that core item, like prints or something, that makes sure that you're paying the electricity bill, you know, so you're not at the whims of, you know, whether you can get out to galleries or that sort of thing. And with my florals, which you mentioned earlier, they don't sell that well. They're not, I think, because of the background. I'm not sure why they just don't sell that well. So I thought, well, how else? Because I love doing them. And so what else can I do with them? So I started having silk scarves made. And it's an investment. It's not cheap to do that. No, I bet. It's a wonderful place that I used in Macclesfield. It's one of the last sort of British places that print on silk, silk from China, because we don't create enough silk in this country commercially. But again, that required an awful lot of investment in marketing and, you know, and time. And actually, at the same time, that's when my mum passed away. So I lost all the momentum for doing the scarves. And they've taken a bit of a backseat until I'm, because I wanted to go into sarongs and, you know, caftans. Your work will lend itself to that. I mean, the trees as well as the florals, to be perfectly honest. I can see myself in a scarf. Yes, absolutely. I'm on board with that. I'm definitely going to return to it. I was really passionate about it. I've got all these different colourways, you know, like I said, planned on some caftans and, you know, some sort of things that I would like to wear. But yeah, again, it's energy and focus. I've just, I don't have enough of either. And actually, even the prints, I'm not doing any more prints for a while either. I've always been 50-50. I mean, Sarah, do you do prints? I mean, I don't know how I feel about them. No, no. I feel it's something I should do. Should never say that, should you? But no, no. To this point, no. Yeah. Short answer to that question. Yeah. I was always a bit, I've always a bit, I like my paintings to exist as that painting and not as anything else. But then I also quite like the idea of having that, having a lower cost way into the painting, getting, you know, acquiring paintings. It feels good enough. It does. It really does. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I think there's probably an argument at the moment to say that it's good to have something at different price points. Absolutely. Absolutely. A wider range of people can access. Yeah, no, it's interesting. It's something I have toyed with and continue to toy with. But like you, it's all time. Yeah. You just can't do everything well. So you've just got to concentrate on. Absolutely. And if you spread yourself too thinly as well, then, yeah, then I think that can be a problem in terms of energy and focus. And also, you know, you've got to think about what it is that you that you are, you know, what you are trying to achieve. You know, because I know lots of lovely, successful artists have really good homeware ranges. They do, you know, and I'm just and I love that idea. But I, not yet, not now. I don't think I've got the time or the energy and I just want it all to go into the pure art of it. Yeah. No, I do get that. I do get that. I was going to ask you something then, and it's completely gone out of my head. I know what I was going to ask you. Courses. Now, we talked about painting courses at the beginning, because that's obviously how you started, really, with your with your mum. And I was going to say to you, did you want to promote your painting courses? But I went on to your website. They're all sold out. I know, I'm really lucky. Are you planning more this year? I again, I keep toying with that. I was going to squeeze another one in March. This is back in December. I thought I could fit another one in. I'm so glad I didn't put another one on. I'm so busy. So I might put another one on at the end of the year. So I've tried to. The bulk of them are sort of in the summer because that's when the trees are less interesting. We don't have many art fairs or selling opportunities. So and also the summer is lovely for people to come out and do things like that. So maybe maybe towards the end of the year and then definitely more for next year. Yeah, they yeah, I sold out last year and I expect to sell out this year too. I'm very lucky I have access to a lot of wonderful students that used to come to our courses with mum at Joe Daisy Studio. So I have a lot of those people who still return course after course. So yeah, yeah, it's great as well. And I teach in a studio that some of my students now run. They have their own studio and there's a photo of mum up on the wall and all of their sayings. So it's a real legacy that she left. So it's great to still be able to do it. And a lovely thing. I was going to say how much you enjoy them, but I can just tell you how you're talking. But it's clearly there's quite an emotional connection to those courses predominantly through your mum, I guess. But you must enjoy you must enjoy the process of enabling others to be as good artists as they can be. I love it. And I love telling people what to do. I love it. I'm so bossy. It's great. So in all seriousness, I do. I do love it. I love my old corporate world. I used to train and give presentations and stuff. So I'm quite comfortable with an audience. So I love it. I love teaching. I love seeing people create stuff that they never thought that they could do it. It's the best feeling in the world. And I love sharing as much as I've learned. So I'm self-taught. I grew up with my mum and my brother. And everything I do, I learned myself through trial and error and research and, you know, whatever I could do. And I'm keen that I can shortcut that for people and share what I know and just, you know, get everyone excited about what they can actually achieve themselves. It's amazing. I love teaching. I love it. Love it. And do you think being a self-taught artist yourself has produced a different end product, if you like, if you've been to university and studied fine art? I guess we'll never know, but I suspect probably. Yeah, I suspect probably. I think so. I don't know what that is, but I think it makes me a better teacher. And I certainly have made a point of really researching my art, even down to how pigments work, because I guess without having had that art education, I wanted to do it myself. You know, I've wanted to find out things myself. And like I say, most of the time, it's just trial and error and see what happens. And there's so much information out there now. It's actually relatively easy to find a video just about any art-related subject that you might want to study. Yeah. It's great, isn't it? I mean, when I started out, but the amount of information and, like you say, the instruction videos out there are so good that you can pick up on other people's processes and techniques and see what works. And also, a lot of students say to me they don't know what to buy. They don't know what brush or what paint. So it's great to be able to influence people and help people like that as well. Good. Now, we mentioned at the very beginning about Landscape Artist of the Year. It would be remiss of me not to revisit that topic. Kat and I actually met when we were both wildcard artists. Is it Wickham Park? West Wickham Park. Yeah. West Wickham. Yeah. Was that 2020? No, that was 20... It is 2020 because it was during Covid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were meant to be two metres apart but I don't think anybody really knows. Do you remember they said as well, don't mention Covid if you're interviewed on the telly? Yes, yes. Don't mention it. We're going to pretend it's not happening. Yes, which would be quite nice, to be perfectly honest. So I'm quite happy with that. But the big news is that Kat made it into a pod this year. I was so delighted when I heard that. Tell me a little bit about the experience because I just enjoyed being a wildcard artist, to be perfectly honest. I absolutely loved it. I tell you, it was really good fun. Have you done it since, Sarah? Have you gone wildcarding again? I've had several wildcard opportunities but they've either not worked for me timing-wise or I've just... I don't know. They've just not worked. I'd like to get into a pod, if I'm honest. Ah, well, you know, it's the thing, isn't it? I mean, you'll get there. You'll get there. I actually missed the deadline last year. Don't laugh. Oh, no. Oh, no. Well, you've still got time now. I know. So we're going to have another go this year. So tell me about the experience. It was great, yeah. How different was it from being a wildcard? Well, do you know what? Thank God for the wildcard experience, actually, because I was so nervous when we did the wildcard. I remember shaking. I mean, like, oh, it's ridiculous. So actually, I felt really relaxed. You know, like, oh, yeah, this is going to be really easy. I felt really relaxed on the day. I was so excited. We were really lucky that we had lovely other artists, as well, in the pod. But it was surreal. It was really surreal because, obviously, you see it on the telly, and then you're there. And I don't know. In a way, the competitive edge is at odds with being an artist. You know, to paint in a competition like that feels like, because I'm highly competitive, and I, obviously, I definitely wanted to win. But I just felt like I don't paint a painting to win anything, you know? No, I wouldn't say that. It's a really weird way of thinking. Plus, castles, oh, my God. I've never painted a castle before. I don't know where to start. So that was a bit like, oh, where are the trees? And also, the other thing I... I hear it. When they called me, actually, and said that I'd been picked, I was in the back of a cab, actually, and I was screaming. I was in this cab drive. I was like, what the hell's going on? And I said, well, where am I going? She said, Aberdeen. I'm like, Aberdeen. So I'll be like, we're going somewhere close. So I did the research and realised there weren't any trees there at all. So I knew what to expect. But what I didn't expect was the fact that the public are allowed to just walk past you all the time. And my instinct is to turn around and talk to everybody. And under the time pressure, you can't. You have to keep painting. And it feels really rude to not turn around. So you're constantly being watched. And I think if you'd asked me at the end of the day whether I'd ever do it again, I'd have said, no, never. It was too hard, too weird, too competitive. But given the months of reflection, I'd definitely do it again. I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, What else can we look forward to from CAC Oxford this year then? What else, apart from the courses which we've already talked about, what else is going on? Where can people go and see your work in the flesh this year? So I've got an exhibition in Caversham which is just north of Reading at Caversham Picture Framers that starts tomorrow, so I'm very excited about that. I'm going to be at Cheltenham Fresh Art Fair as well with a collective called Wooden Wing who have two other wonderful artists, so come along to that. And then I'm at Affordable Art Fair in Hampstead. I'm also running an exhibition which I run with a friend of mine. We curate a yearly, annual exhibition in Henley-on-Thames, and that's in April, so we invite artists to come in and exhibit their work. So that's in its third year. And then I'm also exhibiting in North Yorkshire towards the end of the year as well, which is a new stomping ground for me, so yeah. Well, so my friend Liz, Liz Harvey, who's also an artist, I run the Henley exhibitions with her, used to live in Reading. She now has moved to North Yorkshire, so we're both exhibiting together. And hopefully, we're also going to be, well, we're also running some courses together up in North Yorkshire as well, and we're looking to do some curated exhibitions up there, too, to complement the ones that we do in Henley. So yeah, busy, busy, busy. You are extremely busy, as always. I love it, love it. Thank you so much, Kat, for being a guest today. It's been lovely to chat to you. You can find Kat's work at katcroxford.com or on Instagram on a Croxford Undersport artist, is that right? It's Kat Croxford Artist. Kat Croxford Artist. I apologise. Kat Croxford Artist. Go and look her up. Fantastic work. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of The Paint Pod. Please like, subscribe, etc., etc., etc. It all really helps. Until our next wander through this audio gallery of ideas and inspiration, thank you and goodbye. Thanks, Sarah.