230630-Refiners Fire

The speaker starts by acknowledging the technical difficulties and expresses their hope that the recording will be a blessing to those who couldn't join the meeting. They thank God for his presence and ask for his spirit to minister encouragement. The speaker introduces the topic of the refining fire and mentions that many have heard teachings about how God refines and purifies our lives. They discuss various Bible verses that talk about refining and purging, emphasizing that God uses trials and afflictions to refine us and remove impurities from our lives. The speaker encourages listeners to trust in God's refining process and to be thankful for the difficult circumstances that help us grow and become stronger. They highlight the importance of responding with grace and love to those who challenge us, as this is part of the refining process. The speaker concludes by mentioning that God purges rebels and transgressors to keep his people pure and sanctified. They emphasize that separatio Yes, good evening everyone. It's now almost the end of June on another Friday where we come together with just a purpose to seek God, to seek his word, to fellowship with each other. And so tonight, it seems like the network is fighting and different ones have situations. Because I believe that this word can strengthen each and every one of us, including myself. And so as not everyone can be on, perhaps the recording will be a blessing to some. Father, we're grateful for this time. We're grateful for your presence. We're grateful for the inspiration of your holy word. And God, we thank you, send forth your spirit to draw those in and God to minister encouragement to every heart. Lord, thank you to draw each one. And Lord, release your presence, release your power in every country and place where this, your word is proclaimed that God, you are faithful. In the midst of a refiner's fire, God, you are faithful. And God, with all the works that you do, every work that you do, almighty God, you can only do good work. And so we submit ourselves to your hands tonight and ask you Lord to give us grace and give us strength, each one in Jesus' name. Amen. The title for tonight is the refining fire, the refiner's fire. And I'm sure that many of you have heard teaching about how the Lord refines us and how as silver is tried that the Lord processes and purifies our life. That's his work. His work is inside of us. He has a Holy Spirit within us, his precious presence. And you cannot be in the presence of God and remain the same. The more we give honor and respect and appreciation to the gift of God in this, his presence, the more he can refine us. Because rather than running from the fire, we can run to it. Let's just begin with Isaiah chapter 48, verse 10 and 11. Now we'll begin diving in. Can we understand what the word of God has to say about being refined? So Emmanuel, you're welcome to read. Isaiah 48, verse 10. Okay, 9 to 11. For my name's sake will I defile my anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not up. 10. Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver. I have chosen thee in the furnace of a future. 11. For my own sake, even for my own sake, will I do it? For how should my name be polluted? And I will not give glory unto another. Praise God. Praise the Lord. Such a wonderful way that God is so faithful. At first, I glance at this verse. First of all, verse 9 and verse 11 are very similar. And it says, for my name's sake. God is looking to his children who are backsliding, who are, yeah, haven't been following the Lord as closely. And he says, for my name's sake, I will put my anger into a bottle. I'll just hold back my anger. And I will not cut you off. I guess one thing we have to realize about the Lord is when it says in Hebrews that whom the Lord loves, he chastens. And everyone who does not receive chastening or discipline and refining is not a son at all. I mean, if you don't care for your children, you let them do anything they want and they do not come out well. But if you truly be a son or a daughter of the Lord, he's going to do a work inside. He's going to expose those things that, you know, maybe of our culture, things of our own culture that we don't realize it's not God's culture, things we grew up with, the things we learned along the way that is not kingdom and heaven's culture. You know, we make excuses. Well, that's always the way that I've been. When we stand before the Lord, this will not stand up in the court of God because he said he's made a way for us to be free of those things. So God said, look, my own namesake, I will begin to purify you. So the choice is, do I throw you away or do I purify you? If I continue to discipline you. In the New Testament, one of the examples is, is he going to cut down the vine and throw it away? No, there was a plea saying, but yet one more year, one more season, let me trench around it and let me work it up. Let me put some fertilizer and let us see if it will grow fruit. And I think this is the two choices. Don't complain when you are chastised and disciplined by the Lord because it's his love and his kindness that he doesn't throw us away. How do you like that one? Lord, I don't like discipline. It's the apostles. It doesn't seem very joyous at the moment, but in the end it produces a peaceable fruit of righteousness in all those who have had a lot of exercise of the Lord's discipline. Hallelujah. I'm laughing because it's a painful, joyful concept of the Lord. Let's read some more scripture. If we read, first of all, Isaiah 48 and verse 10, some versions to me don't bring it out as clearly, but I'm reading from the Webster English Bible, I think it is. I'm not sure, World English Bible. And it reads like this, behold, I have refined you, but not the way I would refine silver. In other words, if I put you through all that heat and pressure, you would fall apart. So what I'm going to do then is I'm going to put you into a furnace of much affliction. And I have chosen you in the furnace of much affliction. Dear ones, in the furnace of much affliction, some lose their faith, some curse God, some just give up. But it's out of that furnace that the Lord chooses his people that will be used by him in unusual ways. I don't know anyone who has been used powerfully by God that has not experienced so many afflictions and trials and troubles. Many of the most broken people that God uses powerfully, when they tell you their story, you are amazed by what they have gone through, because God is doing a good work, a good work within you. All right. Isaiah chapter 1, Isaiah 1, verse 25 and 26. And then, Xavier, you can get Job 23, 10 and have that ready. Job 23, 10. Brother Emmanuel, Isaiah 1, verse 25 and 26. And I will turn my hand upon thee, and I will take away thy dress, and take away all thy things. 26. And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning. Afterward thou shalt be called the city of righteousness, the city of the faithful city. Praise the Lord. Oh, I like the word afterward. There's a lot of the scriptures we're going to be looking at that you have the before and the afterward, because at the moment it doesn't feel so well. But afterward, afterward, you will be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city. Oh, Lord Jesus, help us. And the Lord will restore. But for now, he's turned his hand upon them for a purpose. And that purpose is to purge away the dress. Oh, unless we have a perspective of what God is doing, we might easily become disturbed. We might easily get depressed and want to give up. And we might easily say, God, this is not fair. What are you doing? Shall clay say to him who formed it? What are you doing? You have no hands. You're not good at what you're doing. It doesn't, this doesn't feel good. Brother Sadie, go ahead. Job 2310, can you hear me? Yes, fine. But he knows the way that I take. When he has tried me, I shall come forth as God. So what is the meaning, the savior of this, this word, he's trying me. Are we in a final exam? I think, according to this very verse, it kind of brings its own context, we may not need to read a lot of words, because he says that he knows the way that I take. So he's aware of the valleys and the hills and the mountains. So he's looking at the way and looking at me who is walking there and expecting, is this my son determined to finish this mountain? Will he go through this valley? David says in Psalm 23, that even when I go through this tough valley, I shall not be afraid because you are with me. So because God is looking at the way and I'm the one who is in the way, he knows the way that I take. When he has become sure that that hill was not simple, but I overcame it. That valley was complicated, but I went through it because I trusted in him. I shall come through this road. Amen. And I think that we'll see as we go forward as well. That's an awesome answer, Pastor Xavier. Thank you for that. And this word tried and the word gold or silver, tried gold, tried silver, we begin to see a pattern where this word is often in the connected with refining of silver or gold. But we're going to see some Psalm 66, verse 10. Now, Brother Zebedee is gone. So Brother Manuel, you'll be next. Psalm 66, 10. Many of you have heard us bring this chapter forward in the discussions here and realize that this is such a beautiful chapter of how God deals with us. But for now, let's just read 66, verse 10. Praise the Lord. Psalm 66, verse 10. For thou, O Lord, art proven us. Thou hast tried us as silver is tried. Praise the Lord. So, Brother Emmanuel, what's the meaning of this, that Lord has tried us as silver is tried? I'm wanting that ministers to just reverse the question. I look at the scripture and there is this understanding that that scripture is trying to say that God has put us through a refining process that maybe in our own estimation, it is not a refining process. It is a difficult process. But he has not allowed that refining process to be too hard beyond what we can excel from, what we can learn from. He has allowed it to be within the limits of what he knows that if we trust him, we will learn from it. That's why he says, he has tried us as silver is tried. So, what I see in that scripture is that the Almighty sets up certain scenarios through which he tries to make us better, make us stronger, make us understand his ways better. Praise God. Thank you, Emmanuel. That's a good explanation. Proverbs 17 and 3, Pastor Xavier, Proverbs 17, 3. And before you read in Emmanuel, Jeremiah 9, 7, if you could go ahead, Pastor. Yeah, the refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold, but the Lord tries the hard. So, we see what is a refining pot? Anybody can offer a suggestion as to what is the refining pot is for silver? Maybe you have another version and it says something different. I think practically, you know, silver is gotten from the ground. Like here in the part of the country where I live, nearby there is a gold mine in Murende. In Murende there is a gold mine here in Uganda. And these guys go and kill the ground, dig down in the ground and they come with paddles of just soil. And now they get that soil, they put it in some chamber where they apply fire. So, they apply that fire, I think it is the extent of the furnace because they use electricity. And somebody who has taken like 500 kilograms of the soil mixed with that impurity and gold and whatever, somebody who has taken 500 kilograms of pure gold, so I think the refining pot is different impurity. It almost sounds like the word refining pot, doesn't it? Finding pot, refining pot. In fact, in English one word for this finding pot is crucible. It's a kind of a pot that can take enormous heat and you put your unrefined silver in there like you said and it begins to melt. And as it melts, the impurities come to the surface. You know, we never, help me if you're laughing, we never do luck when our impurities come to the surface, do we? You know, we can hide our thoughts for some time, but sooner or later people and circumstances and the Lord God Almighty will turn up the heat and it becomes more difficult. Challenges become greater and soon we find ourselves exposing our faults and it's not very pretty. But a good silver smith would actually be very happy that the impurities were coming to the surface so that they would be removed from the pure silver. And so this refining fire that we experience, this refining fire that we experience absolutely will give us a more purity in our life. And we can pretend to be a Christian on Sunday, but come Monday afternoon, already that we are exposing, things are being exposed in our life. And this one in Psalm 66 that we just read, it talks a lot about how God put us in a net. He laid affliction upon our loins, our loins is our fruitfulness, how we can produce anything in the Lord. And He let men ride over our heads. You know, go ahead when you have time to study that chapter up to 12, but it's in the end it says, but afterward, what's that word again? But afterward, He brought me into a wealthy place, a full, whole, satisfied, wonderful place. So this finding pot is for silver in Proverbs 17, 3, and the furnace is for gold. There's two comparisons. The third comparison, but the Lord tries or refines the hearts by heat. This word tries, here it is again. And this begins to show us a context that the Lord is talking about when He turns up the heat and allows affliction to, not necessarily sickness, but afflictions of many kinds. The people, He'll send people into our lives that are the most difficult for us to deal with because we need to learn and grow and know how to deal with that level of difficulty. So we can know how to love people in a different way. All these people that are our furnace, they just can really affect us until we overcome. And the impurity in my life has been removed. Oh, we love to point our finger at the faults of that other brother or sister, and we'll express our frustration with them. But really what God is dealing with is my own life. When they no longer affect me, when I know how to answer with grace and not be troubled by their ways, it seems like God delivers them too. Oh, did you hear me? All of a sudden, all of a sudden the Lord just does a work in my life and then He does a work in their life. And until I overcome my response to that person, and there's an impurity in my life, it's not purely the love of God, the grace of God, the wisdom of God. Does anybody hear me? Yes, Reuben. Yes, Reuben, I hear you. So can we praise God for those people who most rub against us? Can we thank God for the difficulty of the situation and trust that He is not going to refine us, to destroy us, but to make us more useful and stronger? And praise God for that. Amen. All right. Who of all of you have light? And it's easy for you to read. Anybody at all? That's the Savior. And who else? So let's go to Jeremiah chapter 9, verse 7. And I love the scripture my brother read. You asked him to read the scripture, Pastor Savior read. And the word afterwards, I smiled when you picked on that word as well. Amen. Jeremiah 9, 7, we'll start with Pastor Savior. And then in favor, are you also able to read? Yes, sir. I am. Okay. Well, you get that in Ezekiel 20, 38. And we'll begin with Pastor Savior now. Yeah. Ezekiel 20, 38. Here we are now at Jeremiah 9, 7. I'm reading from my phone too. Yeah. Yeah. Said, therefore, thus sayeth the Lord of hosts, behold, I will melt them and fry them. For how shall I do for the daughter of my people? Their tongue is as an arrow shot at. It speaketh deceit. One speaketh peaceably to his neighbor with his mouth, but in heart he lets his ways. Shall I not visit them for this thing? Sayeth the Lord, shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? Should I continue? No, that's good. So in the very first verse you read, it says, read it says, therefore, thus said the Lord of hosts, behold, I will melt them. Melt. Yeah. Melt always includes heat as far as I know. Maybe some chemical thing, but, and try them. Again, this word try, we're getting a bigger picture of this word try. It has to do with the word say, A-S-S-A-Y. The word say is to determine the quality of a precious metal. A say, to determine the quality of a precious metal. It also has to do with the purifying of metals through heat. So here he says, they're not very good. And so therefore, I'm going to melt them. I'm going to try them. How can I not do this for the daughter of my people? It's the love of God for wicked people. You know, sometimes the intentions of our hearts are not as clean as we'd like them to be. And if we cry out to the Lord, he is faithful and he will purge. And sometimes his purging is through circumstances. And when we begin to perceive and understand the ways of God, we begin to have more faith and less of our own fleshly understanding. I hurt. Oh, I don't like, oh, it's, this is terrible. No, this is our flesh response. But when we respond by the spirit of the Lord, we can rejoice. We can be thankful at least and grateful that our God is holding us and bringing us through these things. And that once we have been tried, we will come forth as gold. All right. Ready, DFB's video 2038. Yes, sir, I am. And I will purge out from among you the rebels and them that transgress against me. I will bring them forth out of the country where they are drawn and they shall not enter into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord. What does that speak to you, brother? Go ahead. Okay. I see the word purge. It says I will purge out from among you the rebels. I will purge. I will do a separation. And then he says I will purge out from among you the rebels, the separation and them that transgress against me. So all of these process, I see the Lord is doing so that he can keep his own children, his own to keep them pure, to keep them sanctified and, and keep them, you know, being a ready vessel for him. You remember the, he says in Timothy, he says that the one who is sanctified, the one who cleanses himself from business, sanctified, he is the one, he is a vessel of honor. And that's the one he's using. So this is what he's saying here. And he says I will purge out from among you the rebels and them that transgress against me. I'll bring them forth out of the country where they are drawn and they shall not enter into the land of Israel and you shall know that I am the Lord. So what he is saying is I'm going to clean you. I'm going to separate the things that defile the things that corrupt you and make you not be useful in my hands and useful unto me. And I, and from what we see, it's never going to be an easy process, but he says, I will do it. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, but sometimes separation is not easy. Separation is not easy. You know, we think about it and say, okay, Lord, yes, I know that I'm in this situation. I have this friend, I have this business partner, I have this circle that I know I keep, you know, I communicate with, but I know they're not really healthy for me. It's not really a healthy relationship. It's not a healthy communication from my spirit, but I don't even know how to separate. I don't even know how to deal with it. But the Lord says, I will do the separation. I will do the forging and then you shall know that I am the Lord, which means it's going to be difficult for you, but I'm going to do it for you so that I can keep you useful in my service. Good faith. Thank you. Absolutely. Now the historical context of this is Jeremiah was prophesying probably very shortly before the Babylon came and defeated Jerusalem and they all were taken into captivity for a period of 70 years. So this gives an idea that what Jeremiah was prophesying about. If we read more of Jeremiah, we see what he's talking about and then they go into captivity. Other contemporary prophets also talked about the same thing and you see, then you see the likes of Daniel and Ezra, Nehemiah, they're all prophesying near the end of captivity, but Jeremiah and I believe Hosea and Ezekiel were contemporary with Jeremiah and they were prophesying about this crucible where God was going to bring his people into a time where he's going to purify them. So this whole story of Babylon and Israel going into captivity for the second time in their history, they went into captivity because they had sinned against the Lord. And what brought them out of captivity after 70 years? Well, if you read in Daniel chapter 9 and Ezra chapter 9, it's kind of interesting it's the same chapter, there is a chapter of repentance where Daniel is repenting on behalf of the sins of God's people for many generations even. He says, Lord, we have sinned, we have killed your prophets, we have rejected you, we've defiled your altars. So we really want to be aware that God took them into Babylon, but the people that he brought out were a different people because God had dealt with them. And God being so interested in working with his people, he would often allow defeat to come in their life. Or other armies would begin to harass them until they cried out, or then when they cried out and revival came, then the Lord would again return this presence to them. So this picture in history of the children of Israel, I mean, definitely it can speak to our own lives. Can it not? Amen. So about a Savior, the question that many people ask is, well, some people say this way, well, God does not cause evil things to happen. And other people says, well, yes, God engineers these difficult situations. How to answer those people? You understand my question? I think I partly understand and I can give my own contribution. Thank you. Previously, before we started, we had a chat and I've already had this statement and I also sometimes make it that what the devil intended for bad, the Lord has turned it out for good. Now, like when we get an example of our Lord Jesus Christ, he was getting through too much trouble and the father was looking upon him. And these people influenced by the enemy, they are troubling him, they are beating him, they are spitting on him, they make him naked, they lift the Savior, they put him on the cross, they nail him and the enemy is bringing all this evil upon him, thinking he's putting an end to him. But God has allowed him to go through all this because there is a verse in Romans 8 that says that the afflictions that are occurring, that we are going through right now, they cannot be compared with the future glory that is going to be revealed. So, God may not necessarily be involved in afflicting a person, but he can accept that affliction to come such that that affliction will bring the purging, will bring the purging that he wants in you because even Jesus Christ, the Bible talks about him that he despised the shame because of the glory that was set before him. So, I think God just allows afflictions to come in order to try us and see us. You remember, there's a scripture here in the book of, I think, is it 1 Timothy 2? Which says that when God considered us that we can be faithful, he entrusted us with the ministry. So, I think he may leave afflictions he may leave me to be afflicted, much as he has not brought the affliction, but he has allowed the afflictor like he allowed the devil, the Satan, to go and afflict Job and he was looking and he knew that Job was not going to give up so, according to the trust he has put in one person, he says, let me allow him to go through this affliction because if he passes this affliction, there is a level of glory he's going to enter. So, what the enemy intends is for bad, the Lord uses it to get us out as pure gold which can be, I mean, which is used and it is fit for the right use. So, I think also God can use afflictions to purge us, to perfect us. Amen. Okay. So, anybody wants to answer to Pastor Xavier? Do you agree with him or do you have a different thought? Brother Case? Yes, that's a powerful contribution which I agree with. God is not wicked. That's a point that is confusing for many. Why does God allow everyone all that? Somebody who is wicked is intends to do harm, but what God does is to his glory, though the thing may not be sweet. Like, I have an assignment which I have not done. I'm still writing it. It's part of my assessment before I leave theological school. So, and the text is John 11 where Jesus, though he lost the family, would not go while Lazarus was sick. The Bible even mentions Jesus loves Mary, Martha and Lazarus, so he stays back. I was confused. I said, can that be a gift of love? Why will you love and stay back and not go immediately when information comes? So, but the Bible says, he said, but this sickness is to the glory of God. So, God is able to use the situation which is not funny for us to build something out of it. Like, I've been following the teaching very powerful. Pastor Fever talked about suppression. Suppression is not always a sweet thing. I'm not sure it was sweet for Abraham to let go of love. He had carried love all the way from the first time God called him. So, they have been carrying love, even his father carried love since Lord's father died earlier. So, but sometimes to enter into destiny, it must happen and God can use anything to do that. So, God works with situation to bring about purging, to bring about suppression that will make us a silver. I know with silver is when you hear the words dross. Dross is that, however, the unrefined silver, the dates, like those who are not into refining anyway. I know we have what you call iron ore. It's not very clean. So, it's that refining process that purges the bad. So, by the time we face this affliction, our intentions become very well known to us. So, if there were anything that were not in agreement with God, they'll be reviewed at that time. I have had situations that I reviewed my true person when it has to do with relating with the sinner folk. That was when I knew that I'm telling the truth, that I was not ready to marry. I didn't have tolerance. I couldn't have married at that time. So, my brother Cassandre, sometimes tolerance is developed in the furnace of much affliction. Sometimes the Lord will give you the very partner you need, and they are part of the process of the Lord. I thought I was perfect, and I was doing so well with people until I got married. Then a lot of my perfection that I thought was exposed by being very close with somebody. Then I nearly had that perfected, and then we had children. So, anyone who's gone through that process understands, and most people will be laughing because this is so true. Sometimes, though we have the tolerance or we don't, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I just want you to also consider that you should put us with somebody. So, you all are saying that, and I like what you said in the very beginning, Brother Cassandre, that even if God caused very unpleasant things to happen in our lives, His motive is only ever good. There are so many verses that will say that God created the calamity, God caused the nations to rise against them, God allowed. This whole concept that God never does evil, I agree with. However, sometimes what we consider being evil is actually God's hand of love, His hand of judgment against that which is not against me, but against that which is in my life that would prevent me from coming into all that God has for me. It's not much fun, but the doctrine of just God can never do any, you know, no bad thing will ever come to me is just weak, and it's just, you can't find a backing for it in Scripture other than maybe by twisting the arm of a couple verses to put it together. Sincerely, throughout the entire Bible, there are examples of people who went through desperate things, including our Savior. If God cannot engineer anything extremely painful and terrible in our lives, why did Jesus, by the plan of God, have to go through what He did? Not one of those things was even humanly possible to endure. So I challenge that with that way of thinking, and maybe somebody else, Brother Faber, go ahead and speak to that if you like. I always give you the hard questions, you know that. I totally agree with you, and I also understand what Pastor Seja is saying, and it's also beautiful. You know, he's coming from the angle that God can't do evil. But what you said is very important, is very key, because it's important we understand that what we may consider to be evil, what we may be thinking, okay, could this be an affliction from God? It has a different impression, just like you said. So I agree totally with what you said, and I think that it's a balance that brings the perfect balance to the two views. Job himself in Job 2, verse 10, says this, and this is in the World English Bible as well, but he said to her, to his wife, so this is Job answering his wife who wants Job to give up on God, but he said to her, you speak to me as one of the foolish women would speak. What? He says, shall we not receive good at the hand of God, and shall we never receive evil? All this Job did not sin with his lips. Some people say any difficult thing that comes along, the devil did it. That gets to be a tricky doctrine as well, doesn't it, by the case? Yes. Although the enemy, the enemy definitely is documented in Scripture to cause a lot of ill and evil, but even when the devil thought he had won, and he crucified the Lord, the Christ, it was the moment of his destruction. So, like you said, by the Savior, God can turn anything for good, and I thank God. I thank God. So, there's a couple of verses that just read with the question, is this trying and testing out of God's anger, or is it out of God's love? Because God can be God of wrath as well, and that's part of what makes it difficult to understand doctrine of these things. Lord, what is really going on? God, do you still love me? Do you hear me, anyone? God, do you still care for me? And I'm going through all of this. It's a natural question, because we look at circumstances, right? We look at our circumstances, but when we seek God and desire to know God, what are you doing in my life? How can I cooperate with you? There was a guy that had to have an operation to have something, a tube moved that would cure him quickly, but that man fought with the hospital. He fought with the nurses. He fought with the anesthesiologists. He fought with all of them, and it comes about that they never could remove that tumor, because he didn't want those people cutting on him. He didn't want those people putting him to sleep, and he was no longer in control. He was fighting to get on the operating table. So, what happened is a wise and senior doctor sat next to him in the waiting area, and he said, sir, if you would cooperate, your problems would be over, and we would be able to do that, which you really need to have done. But without your cooperation, you'll probably be back in two years begging us to help you, and it would be too late. And he began to explain to him, and so the man with understanding submitted himself to the process of removing that which should not be there. Hear me. That which should not be there in a Christian's life, and yet God wants to bring us through an operation, and often we, not understanding, we fight against it. I tried to save a cat one time, and he fought me so hard, I didn't know how I could save him, because he didn't, he did not understand. Look, little guy, I'm trying to help you. I mean, it's so scary to you, and I'm hurting you, and yet my heart will only to rescue that cat. The doctor's heart is only to help and to save and to give life to that man who needed operation. So, when we look at this in a little different light, we begin to possibly understand some of these scriptures, and that God is furious with sin. His anger burns against that destructive force that Satan has brought within the world, and he hates sin, but never the sinner. He's angry with Satan and what he's done, and any time he finds the influence of Satan and sin in our lives, it angers him because we are his precious child. You would never want your child to, you know, have an ugly scar on their face that could be removed. You'd want the best for your child, and you'd be angry how that scar got there, and yet you would attempt to treat that child, even if it was painful. Burn victims are, these are natural examples, but they, I believe, they apply here. Burn victims, the only way to save a severely burned person is to keep the scar tissue on the surface from forming scar tissue until it has healed from the inside out, and so what they have to do, they make these poor people scream because they have to scrub all of the dying flesh off the outside, all of the scar tissue that's trying to form until that healthy tissue has recovered fully. You know, these things are examples in nature that maybe we can get a picture of what God is doing. Amen. Brother LA, I'm glad that you're here, and I hope that you're following along okay. Have you ever had, Brother LA, have you ever had some difficulties in your life that are almost difficult to deal with? It's a good evening, sir. Good evening. Yes, I have some physical difficulties. Yes, I have had some difficulties in my little life, and then in the end, it was worth it because God turned everything. There's a scripture that is dear to my heart whenever I pass through those difficult times. James chapter 1 verse 2 says, my brethren, come to know joy when you fall into diverse conditions. And now verse 3 and verse 4 is the training I get from it. Verse 3 says, knowing this, that the triumph of your faith will be with patience. 4. Let patience have a perfect walk, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. You know, brethren, most people don't like their difficult seasons just like me, but over time, I've learned not to fast-track it. I've learned not to boycott it or try to reduce it because I found out that when the difficult situation gets that when it is so heavy and dirt on you, when you come out of it, the blessings, the lessons, the wisdom, the understanding will be that heavy as well. You'll be much better. You'll be much better. And I owe the betterment to the death of the situation. So, having been through one or two situations in life, and I never accrue, I never assign any situation, I never say that anything comes from God. No. And even if it does come from God, the Bible says that those whom we love, God loves each of us. So, it is to our overall benefit. Yes. Whether it comes from God or whether it comes from nature or whatsoever, sometimes it is even our mistakes and ignorance that cause most of the situations we find ourselves in. But since we are always looking up to heaven, whenever there is an unfavorable or unfriendly situation, since we are always looking at God, sometimes we forget to look inward to find where we got it twisted. But however, whether the mistake came from God, whether the mistake came from ourselves, or God is trying to try us like silver, God will always come in. Now, to turn the whole situation to that what Paul said that everything works together for good to those who God is working for. Yes. So, God will come in and then in the end, He will glorify Himself. And when God glorifies Himself, we as humans will be happy because God cannot glorify Himself and the situation remains the same. So, when God glorifies Himself, the situation turns around because we are a reflection of God's glory. So, that is how far I understand. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen, brother. Yeah, and what you say agrees with the first verse we read, is that not for your sake alone, Israel, but for my own name's sake. You see, God can never fail. And if we put our full trust in God, He will never, never leave us in defeat. But in the end, there will be an afterward. In God, there's always an afterward. Hallelujah. Pastor Xavier, I see you're unmuted. I'll come over to you. Yes, brother Gordon. Now, about a comment you made about our Lord Jesus Christ, how He was afflicted according to the plan of God. I have two verses from Psalm 119. 119 verse 67, it says, Before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now have I kept your word. Then Psalm 119 verse 71, it says, It is good for me that I have been afflicted, that I might learn thy statute. Now, I don't know whether it is a question, I don't know whether it is, I'm just posing a theme that I want to get some more light, because I think when God gave His treasure to Adam, and Adam messed up with this treasure, the same meeting that sat and said, let us make man, must have sat again and said, what shall we do to redeem our treasure? This is where I see a question that who shall go for us? And as they were seated in their Trinity, I know everybody must have seen what was going to take place. And Jesus chose to volunteer to be afflicted the way He was, and the Holy Spirit chose to back Him up by giving Him the empowerment. So, when according to the plan, and this Jesus and the Holy Spirit, they were both in the plan with the Father, I think we, I mean, I want to not take Jesus' suffering as though they were offered by God. But, I mean, even if the author is God, even this Jesus who is going through the suffering, He is part of the group that planned. Now I come to see the affliction that comes to Xavier, to Emmanuel, to save us. When affliction is coming to us, there is always a likelihood that somewhere, somehow we missed the mark. Now in missing the mark, we have lost the way. In our losing the way, we meet affliction. And God is looking at us and is saying, had He known and taken this way, had He had the voice of the Holy Spirit and went with the advice of the Holy Spirit, most likely He would not have gone through this affliction. But since He has made it, let me use it to teach Him. So, what I want to, I'm like, I'm defending, I want to like defend. You're defending both sides. I hear you defending both sides. I hear your confusion. It's okay. People have talked about this for many years. Yes. I want to defend the fact that I don't want to think that any affliction is offered directly from God. Affliction comes to me like if in any way I have missed the mark and then I bombard the repercussions, but still God will use the repercussions to make me straight. That is what I think because I can hear, before I was afflicted, I went astray. But now, have I kept your word. It is good for me that I have been afflicted, that I may learn thy statutes. So, I don't know how, Brother Gordon, you can shed some light about that doctrine of affliction and my brothers, the pastors around. I don't want to believe that God can offer an affliction to me. Because I even believe, I even believe this, that if I am to die and God has chosen that, if it is from God, I know that is a call back home. If the enemy is the author, then that is death. But I mean, I know you understand me. I do, I do understand you. And it's beautiful. You know, you all are thinking in a very beautiful way and you're really engaged. And I'm not the one that just wants to give answers when you're wrestling with these things and I just give you an answer. What I maybe came through after wrestling, but he won't remember and it won't be solid. This is why I love this venue and this mode of a podcast because each one is wrestling this idea, these thoughts. Because, you know, if we say then God caused all the pain that's in my life, then we easily be angry with God. But if we say God never causes, he only uses the afflictions, where do the afflictions come from and why do they come so strong? Only specific things on God's people. Why do they come? And they seem to be perfectly designed to deal with. And as soon as I think I'm doing well, God will send me, I say God will send me a person that I find very challenging to deal with. So I just accept all things. Say God, I praise you for these trials. I thank you that you've allowed this in my life. I'll go that far for sure. And God, even I thank you that you sent this person and I honor and appreciate you. Because I know out of your loving heart, you would never send me something that wasn't good for me. So before I was afflicted, before I was disciplined, I went my own way. So we know that chastisement at least directly can come from God. Let's go to the verse that talks about how that God chastises his people. And we're going to begin to ask what does that chastisement look like? What is this chastisement? Hebrews 12, verse 10 and 11. Hebrews 12. You can really even read from verse 6 to 11, but I don't know if you could do that. For whom the Lord loveth, the wife stays, and ye have forgotten the exhortation which he gave unto you as unto children. My son despised not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor fainted when thou hadst rebuked of him. For whom the Lord loveth his chastisement, and scourged every son whom he received. If ye endure chastening, God delayeth with you as with sons. For what son is he whom the Father hath chastised not? But if ye be with him, the Father hath chastised not. But if ye be with that chastisement, whereof are all our partakers, then are ye bastards and not sons. For them all we have had fathers of our flesh, which corrected us, and we gave them reverence. Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and living? For they vary for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure. But he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. None, no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless, afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Therefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the able knees, and make straight paths for your feet. Leave that which is bendy, and turn out of the way, and let it rather be here. Amen. Amen. Amen. Okay. Jashmin. First of all, yeah, so first of all, let's look at this word chastening. When the Lord chastised the children of Israel in the Old Testament, there were some pretty severe chastisements. How does he chastise his people now? In what ways does the Lord chastise us? You want to answer, Brother Kess? You're welcome. One of the words, chastise, right? Yeah, we're looking at the word chastise. Chastise. I want to literally, I think it literally means to flog one. Let's say with pain. I've had and known people who could flog very well. So I know what it means to be flogged. I was really chastised in my younger years. And I went to a place where corporal punishment was standard. So I know a bit of what it means when you say chastise. So chastisement is intended to bring about correction. Yes. That was the difference between Saul and David. For Saul, he was rejected. But for David, God said, I will not cast you away forever. But if your son sins, there will be a strike for sinning. Chastisement, and that's what I think it means to chastise. The intention of chastisement, not punitive, is to bring about correction. It's an intention for the chastise, directed towards, as far as God is concerned. Maybe I'm even stepping further beyond the definition. So that we partake of his holiness. We partake. I've had dealings with God that made me know him as righteous. When I pray and I say righteous father, I'm not saying it because I saw it quoted somewhere. I know him to be righteous. I've had dealings with him. That's why I sat down and pondered. I said to myself, you are righteous. I said to God, brother, you are righteous. So the dealings with God along that line brought about holiness, a sort of reverence for God. For example, in the natural, I once lied to my dad. That was about 20 something years ago now. I was just living, we call it elementary education or school. So I thought I was smart, but he gave me thorough beatings. And he did, I can't lie. You see, I don't remember lying after so many years. That chastisement was strong enough to affect that result of detesting lies, that's the natural. But in my walk with God, I've had a time where I asked the Lord to give me money and he told me, pray for wisdom. He didn't ask for the prayer of that money. He told me, pray for wisdom. So that was after I lost my job in 2018. So I've seen the Lord's discipline. The Lord is not in a hurry to do just anything. He wants us to be like him, to partake. So chastisement is a means. For example, most people broke that which the Lord had written by himself. He had to write another himself. It's a kind of chastisement. I'm sure he would not have broken the second one, even if there was provocation. Because I'm not sure it would be easy to write on stone. The Lord had done that the first time, this time he had to do it himself. So the Bible is clear on the purpose of chastisement. Our fathers in nature are able to chastise us for a while, for their own pleasure, but God has a purpose. His purpose is that we partake of his holiness. The Bible says, Jesus learned obedience through the things he suffered. There is a learning process. Amen. It's so important that we do learn other things because if we think everything comes from the devil, then we have that doctrine, then we respond to trouble one direction. If we think God causes every trouble, then we think a different way. If we think God causes no troubles, we think a different way. If we realize that our own errors and our own sins and our own mistakes and our own fallen world which we live in also is quite a large source of our trouble. If you live in one country compared to another, your troubles may be greatly relieved by just changing to a different country. If I moved right now to northern Nigeria as a pastor and a teacher, I think my troubles might increase greatly. So my own choices and decisions, unless God calls me, greatly affect my circumstances. So we can view it different ways and it changes how we face these issues. And it's really quite critical or important that this subject that we wrestle with the Lord and we understand. For myself, I don't remember who said, but I just take everything. Say, God, it's in your hands. You've allowed, you've caused, or my own self, I live in a fallen world, but God, wherever, whatever the cause of this, you know, sometimes even just witchcraft against us can cause all kinds of troubles. And yes, it happens, Christians. I have experienced it. And yet, those are the times we can take authority over those things in the name of Jesus and pray through until those opposition powers of the enemy are defeated out of opposing us and hindering us. So if I take everything as not beyond the control of God, coming from the hand of God, coming from even my own mistakes, you know, what do you do when you reap the consequences of your own mistakes? Causes you to humble yourself and to cry out to the Lord. You know, many young people are sheltered, you know, especially by their mothers and sometimes by their fathers. And they never reap the consequences of their choices and their decisions. God, in his kindness, lets me sometimes very quickly realize my mistake by the consequences that happen in my life. And when God allows that, I can learn quickly. So sometimes it's something good to discuss, not something to just stand adamantly on one side and claim we know. Because there's so much humility needed in the dealings of God. And there's so much that God can do in our lives as we allow him. How does God actually discipline me? What ways does he use? Maybe there's so many that we might not come up with answers. As a child of God, as a son of God, if I have been right and I didn't commit no offense, I've not wronged, you know, there is no way chastisement comes in, you know, like to chastise a person for nothing. So most of the times I think chastisement comes as a way of correction. And to respond to the question that you have just asked me, that how does God chastise us now? I think one of the ways I receive chastisement, I can be there, I don't know what I have done, I'm not even aware something wrong has gone on, has taken place, and I will feel a spirit upset and everything around me will not sound good. I will feel heavy in my heart. And if I feel like that, feeling the heaviness of heart, I know right there and then that there is something not correct with me. Therefore, for that matter, I must entreat God to know what is wrong. That is way number one. When I feel my spirit becoming heavy, I know something is not right. Then number two, it is very simple. We can be seated in a fellowship like we are in fellowship right now, or even in church, and God brings his word of chastisement through a preacher, through a teacher, through a minister, and that person will directly address, much as he is speaking to the whole congregation, me who is receiving the chastisement directly, I will receive it with real sense of correction. I will receive that word and I know that it is applying to me, and I will go and fix myself and get my way right with God. Even if it is food I will taste and it cannot taste good. Even if you give me a water to drink, it is like I'm swallowing a bone. And when such things come to me, I know something is not right. So a good chapter for, yeah okay I'm sorry that you finished. Good chapter to confirm what you're saying is in Psalm chapter 32, and maybe somebody can turn to that while Xavier finishes his number two. This is good Xavier. That number two is when God uses his word through a minister or even through the book. I can be holding a book and reading, and you know God has a way of taking you directly to where he wants, even if you had a sailor reading plan. By the time you open you will learn that what is just chastising you. That's true. He knows how to speak to us, doesn't he? Sure, sure. So I believe that in those two ways God has dealt with me through them. Good. Very clear answer, thank you. About humbling, he has even used my own people in the house to humble me. Definitely. So many times, yeah so many times. Thank you. Thank you brother for sharing. Does someone have Psalm 32 as well? I think it would be useful to help Xavier come to his third point even if we read. I will read Psalm 32, I have it. Yes, good thank you. And then you can comment as you wish. You will be free to comment. Let me read, let me first read and I'll see if I comment. I start from verse one, right? Yeah. It's agreeing with your first point for sure brother, so relax. Yes, surely. I've gone through it. I'm going to read it now. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is a man unto whom the Lord imputes not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night your hand was heavy upon me, my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and my iniquity have I not hid. I said I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord, and thou forgivest the iniquity of my sin. For this shall everyone that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found. Surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him. Thou at my hiding place thou shalt preserve me from trouble, thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. I will instruct thee and take thee in the way which thou shalt go. I will guide thee with mine eye. Be ye not as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding. Whose mouth must be held in with beat and breedom, lest they come near unto thee. Many sorrows shall be to the wicked, but he that trusteth in the Lord, mercy shall compass him about. Be glad in the Lord and rejoice, ye righteous, and shout for joy all ye that are upright in heart. Amen. So I have a question along that. Does it then, does it this say that it kind of depends on us how severe of chastisement, discipline, and correction is needed? Do you see that in that chapter as well? When I kept silent about my sin then well my bones are groaning. And it also in the last part of that chapter says don't be like the mule, donkey, which is not to be. And you have to use a whip and you have to drive them where they need to go. I think the Lord would speak to us and say that's how sensitive and discerning heart that we'd be quick to hear the discipline of the Lord. And we'd be quick to notice that our spirit does not feel right. And as you were saying, Brother Savior, let's be careful to hear, quick to hear. Go ahead, Brother. What is number three? Brother Fever wants number three. Brother Fever wants number three. We're all eagerly waiting for number three. Even Pastor Fever is waiting for number three. Now, number three, excuse me, number three wants to resemble number one. But in this case, it is not the issue of the heaviness of the heart. It is not the issue of everything becoming tasteless. But the Holy Spirit can speak expressly that here you are wrong, you need to be corrected. When I supply, I pick, I borrow a scripture from the book of the Second Timothy that all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, but also for correction and reproof. So the Holy Spirit can speak expressly, not using another minister, not even using another human being, not even using a fellowship, but the Holy Spirit can bring a chastisement from the Word of God direct to your spirit, even if your spirit has not felt displeasure. So I think that is, I think, may I think that that is when you have been so, so sensitive that you have not gone to the level of being too heavy. So basically, my number three kind of resembles number one, but the Holy Spirit himself can bring correction immediately. That is my number three. Still small voice. Yes, yes, yes. So God has put within us a conscience. Yes. And that conscience is a God-given service to us that every man is born, I believe, with a conscience. And we can, we can strengthen that confluence. Yeah, we can strengthen that, our conscience area, and we can enrich it with the Word of God. And we can, we can be trained to allow the Holy Spirit to speak in this area of our conscience, the knowing of right and wrong. This is one way that God deals with us and speaks to us is our own conscience will condemn us, or our own conscience or our own heart will acquit us, as Paul was saying in the New Testament, whose own heart either condemning or acquitting us. And you know, if you're a condemned man, you can feel it. So this, this is very precious. Number three is very beautiful. And Jesus said the Holy Spirit is remaining here for the purpose that he will lead us and teach us into all truth and into all error. There's just something about the ring of truth that resonates within us who are born of the Spirit. And God will quicken us. I would say a fourth one, it would be similar to the second one, being the Word of God spoken through people. But the fourth one may be our wife, our husband, our friend, you know, a friend as a way of saying something to us that is not pleasant, but is so true. And sometimes God uses people, doesn't he? To bring correction, to bring understanding. Amen. Father Cassander, we're going to wrap up soon. Do you have something else needs to be added in your opinion here? One of the scriptures that popped up that made me began to rethink my former position on the fact that God may likely use a situation and may not proceed himself. The Bible says, he pleased the Lord to crush him. He pleased the Lord to crush him on signing Jesus. That's a strong one. The first time the Lord spoke that to me was, I think I was still in the bank or I don't know, but there was a situation that he spoke. You know, where I read in Hebrews talks about strengthen the feeble knees. One of the effects of despisement is that people can become weak in faith. They begin to lose hope or they say, if God is not involved in this, therefore, why am I a Christian? But the goal of the letter to the Hebrews or the writing there is to encourage us that when you face these things, you are strengthened. So when I had that word, that he pleased God to crush Jesus, I said to myself, who are you? He pleased him to crush him. If God is pleased about the crushing of a man, then the crushing should be a good one. I don't know, but he must be good. That's my thinking. So again, we go back to that it's the intention of God's heart is always purely good. Yeah, certainly. He doesn't do it out of anger, out of hatred for us, but he intends good. Amen. My last one would be about Joseph. And it's interesting that Joseph named his two sons. His first son was named Manasseh, which means God has made me forget all of my troubles and all of my experiences in my father's house. That's the name of Manasseh. And there's places David says, when the Lord had finished disciplining and correcting me, I was joyful. You know, I got that about David. He says, restore to me the joy of my salvation. The second name, the second son's name was Ephraim, which means God has now made me fruitful in the land of my affliction. In the land of my affliction, I have become fruitful. Sometimes we just want to get out of that land of affliction. But do you know that God can make you fruitful in that place he's planted you? God can take the worst case and you never want to leave it because God has turned that. And we can only come into the second after having forgiven the first. We have to come out of the troubles and the trials and our bitterness that comes from what we've been through. We must let it go. If we don't let it go, we can never come into Ephraim. God has made me fruitful, even in the land of my affliction. David said that passing through the valley of Baca, bitterness, they shall turn it into a garden. May God help us to forget those things which are behind and press into those things which are before. Many times we cannot finish passing through that trial until we cry to the Lord, say, God, teach me what you have to teach me. Amen.