Podcast Enzan Audio 1

The conversation is about mental health and counseling. The hosts, Steven and Enzo, discuss their personal experiences and the importance of having strong male role models. They also talk about the negative effects of overthinking and the need for self-reflection. They mention the lack of education on mental health and the influence of online advice. Both are pursuing careers in counseling and hope to help others improve their mental well-being. All right, they all run at the same time. Sweet. Okay, so, does it look good on the phone? I just feel like this, so. Okay, cool. Yeah. Okay. Is the light fine? Yeah. That looks decent. Okay, cool. So, you're definitely in frame, looks fine. Let me do a little bit of zoom in just for you. Okay, cool. Okay, and then, first topic. Yeah, man. Episode one. I can, I can, I can like intro and all that shit. Yeah, go for it. Okay, I feel like we should have at least one topic before we like intro. I just like that little bit of structure and then we can just move on. So, what I want to talk about is just like how sometimes you have to like be willing to go a couple steps backwards to really go forward because like you attach yourself so closely to the identity that you want to perceive to the world that's not exactly who you are. And so, like, I guess the topic would be congruency, like congruency for the sake of like the improved mental health you get when your behavior is congruent with your goals and your personality. Okay, I like that. Okay, so, start us off. Welcome to the Mastering Mindset Podcast. I am your host, Steven Jaberousi, and I'm here with my guy, Enzo Nazari. And we're just here to talk a little bit about mental health in general, but as well as men's mental health specifically. So, as some of you may know, I do men's mental health coaching for high-performing men. And Enzo is a former client of mine as well as he is pursuing a degree to do counseling on his own. So, he's about to start that process. So, both have some good insights based off of our personal experiences as well as, you know, academic and otherwise. So, yeah, man, how are you doing today? I'm doing good, man. And just to give like that formal introduction, like, yeah, man, I'm one of Steven's old clients, one of his close friends. I share his interest in mental health, specifically men's mental health, as I am a man. And so, you know, it's a very powerful topic to talk about. But, yeah, man, that's a little bit about me. I'm very interested in the human condition, the human mind, how we all have like a shared experience. Like, everyone's the same, but everyone's different. And so, you know, I'm looking forward to the conversation we plan on having. For sure. And you did your undergrad in psychology, right? So, I actually finished my undergrad degree in psychology this semester. I'm taking my last – I actually just paid for my last class at UCF. And so, after that, I'm going to – well, while I'm doing that, I'm studying for the GRE so I can just like get into grad school. For sure. Yeah. It's first you do a step-by-step, finish the degree, then get the test. Get the test scores, then do your applications and everything. So, I graduated from UCF in 2018 for psychology and then 2020 for counselor education. So, I like UCF's program. I don't think any program is perfect, but I got out of it what I needed to. And I learned – I always say that you learn best by doing and actually being in the field more than just, you know, talking about it and preparing. Yeah. But it still helps. Yeah. I mean, I'm probably going to learn more in like the first – like in the hours of licensure more than the degree, right? Because you can only read about, you know, psychopathology so many times and hear the same names over and over again. Jung, Aaron Beck, Carl Rogers. You just keep hearing those names. Yeah. You just – they talk a lot about just, you know, like diagnosis and like the criteria and all that stuff. But until you actually get in front of people and start, you know, doing the techniques and, you know, the process of actually counseling them, that's when you actually develop your own style. Because there's a lot of different theories that – one of the first classes that you take in the counselor education program is like theories. And you go through all the different ones and, you know, some of them are very evidence-based. Some of them are more theoretical, on the theoretical end of things. And you kind of take little bits of each of those and form them into your own style. Because, I mean, nobody – whenever someone goes into counseling, they want to be talking to a person, not just like someone feels like they're like looking at a book or like that they're a robot. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Because it's like – for something like existential psychology, it's very difficult to gauge how effective that is clinically. Yeah. But, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Got you. Yeah, man, so I'm definitely excited to see, you know, your growth in it as well and just how, you know, my business and my practice grows just so we can help as many people as possible. Because, I mean, we've had our own situations with mental health, as does pretty much everybody, for better or for worse. And taking our own personal experiences as well as the academic portion of it can really help people. Because, I mean, I don't know. A lot of negative things can happen in life. And it's kind of – I feel at least it's kind of on us to make meaning out of that. Otherwise, it's kind of just something that happens. But if something negative happened to you and you found your way from, you know, taking a couple steps back to, you know, taking a minor setback to a major comeback, then you can help other people avoid those pitfalls and give them the guidance that they need. Yeah, or even when they hit those pitfalls, they're like mentally equipped to handle it. Like I know for me personally, one of the things that helped from your coaching was like being able to just train my brain into catching myself whenever I start to go into a spiral. And it's like, oh, that's what's happening, right? Because a lot of people, we get like that negative self-talk and we entertain it, right? And it never occurred to me that I didn't have to entertain it or that there was a way of being to where like I didn't – like I could just catch myself and be like, oh, that's why I feel this way. This event earlier triggered this, you know, negative self-talk spiral. Now I catch myself and I'm like, you're not doing that again. It's like especially when we're younger and we're just not aware of these things. Like because, you know, as guys – in general, people don't really get taught like the nitty-gritty of mental health. I mean, shit, when I was going to school, I didn't really get taught anything about mental health. So it's hard to understand what's happening. Like that's kind of the first step is like, oh, this is the thought pattern that happened. This is like with overthinking because like self-reflection is cool. Like that's kind of, you know, how you grow as a person. You think about, okay, what was my part in this? How can I improve? And then you take action based off that, which is why self-reflection is good. But some people take it too far. I know I have in the past to where it turns into rumination, which is like the clinical term for overthinking. And you just – the difference between that and self-reflection is you dwell on the negatives. That's like the only thing you just think about. I messed up here, here, and here. Like, you know, I'm worthless. You start telling yourself the negative things. I'm worthless. I'll never be good at this. And like that's not – that doesn't bring forth action. It doesn't spur you to do anything productive. You just sit in that mopey, negative space. And like a lot of guys get caught in there. I know I have in the past. And sometimes, you know, like you said, like you have to learn to catch yourself. Like, okay, I'm not – you know, because sometimes you'll try to justify. Oh, no, I'm just thinking about how I can be better. It's like, nah, man. Like is this – is what you're telling yourself now going to spur you into action and further situation? Or is it just, you know, your lack of better – you're talking shit about yourself. Yeah, and like when you're in that frame of mind, you're in a very like emotionally vulnerable state. And like you said, a lot of guys are falling into that. And as a result, a lot of people are realizing that they can make a lot of money feeding these voices. Like, you know how many people are out here, like men specifically, that are out here saying, like, I can't do this until I'm, you know, this percent body fat or I've dated this many girls. Like you hear the crazy online advice from men who are probably even more emotionally wounded. And it's not leading to anything that's actually going to help the men in the long run. It's just cash grabs. And like you said, it's like they give themselves these rules. Barriers to happiness. Yes. Like I can't get a girl unless I have six packs. Or six figures. Yeah, six packs, six figures. Like I can't do this until I do this. Yeah. And it's like you're the one making those rules. Yeah. Or you're adopting them from someone who doesn't know anything about you. Yes. And something that I've found a lot is that, you know, especially it's not a, I'm sure it's not a secret to a lot of people out there, that there's a lack of strong male role models out there. And fathers in the homes aren't exactly as prevalent as you would like them to be. So people are kind of searching for, they're searching for some guidance. They're searching for some mentorship. And when you don't have that in person and you don't have that like in your community, you go online. Yeah. I think, because I'm actually curious, because, yeah, I do agree that there's not that many positive male role models. But I also don't think the people that need them are actually looking for them. Yeah. Like I found this guy on Instagram. His name is Jason Wilson. I don't know if you. I've never heard of him. Oh, yeah. Okay. He would be that example of that positive male role model. He had a black belt in some martial arts. He had like a program where he trains young men. Had like a waiting list of like 700 people. The Cave of Adullam or something. And I was sitting there thinking, I was like, there's probably a lot more of men like him. But then I think about the kind of men that do gravitate to those poor male role models. And it's like, there's usually an element of them being fed something that's not healthy for them, but that they're addicted to. If you think about certain spaces online, there's a lot of like women's action, right? Of course. And so a lot of those men gravitate to that. I don't know if they're particularly looking for actual guidance, right? Because you can always watch like a Tony Robbins video. You can always find like someone who's more positive. There was a time in my life where like one of my mentors, he actually like I was going through like a breakup. And he was like, I was trying to get myself together. And he was like, bro, you need to like literally go on YouTube and just like binge Tony Robbins stuff. Like before you go to bed, just listen to him. And it definitely helped me a lot. And like you said, they are out there. But when you're in that negative space, you aren't necessarily looking for them. You're looking to get that, oh, it's this person's fault. It's women's fault. It's society's fault. And yeah, I'm sure that they play a role in why you are where you are. But you are the biggest reason as to why you are where you are. And taking that accountability and that responsibility for yourself and your actions, it's not comfortable for people. Because, you know, they got to get up off their ass and like do things. And it's also like accepting that like you put yourself here and you're the only one that's going to get yourself out. Yeah, and like we were talking earlier about someone we know that kind of falling into some of these rabbit holes. And it's like when you actually listen to people talk and if you know how to ask questions in a subtle way to get them to ask themselves and come to their own conclusions, usually what they find is they're not actually mad at women. They're not actually mad at society. And what they're actually mad at is like that they haven't fully processed their own internal experiences. If you hate, you know, let's say promiscuous women, for example, chances are you either have been hurt by a promiscuous woman or you feel inadequate about your ability to secure a partner. And so, you know, when you say that to them, they don't like it. But when they come to their own conclusions, that's usually what they arrive at. It's like, oh, it's not society I'm mad at. It's this anger comes from my own personal experiences and the emotions are tied to that. Yeah, it's very easy to play with people's emotions, especially anger. Because that's typically anger is what we use to cover up the other emotions. It's like a mask for the real underlying issues. And that's why like when you do counseling, coaching, whatever you're doing, like you actually are, you're forced to explore the underneath and the reasons why you have these beliefs. Because like you said before about like, you know, we're dancing around for like the Red Pill space. Yeah. They, a lot of it is, you know, it's, oh, blame this, blame that, but don't blame yourself. It's like, yeah, there's some aspects where it's like, yeah, you know, have a good exercise routine. Yeah. Like, you know, get, work on your skills, get a job, like improve your financials. Yeah. It's not all bad, but like the blaming other people and blaming women and blaming this and blaming that. Yeah. And saying, giving you like a very narrow path to success. Like you have to follow this road, you have to be, you have to, you know, like the six figures, six pack and you gotta be, and you're gonna be out here, you know, smashing all the girls you want. That's gonna make you happy. Like that's just not, that's not reality for most people. Yeah. You don't see a collection of Buddhist monks like trying to get like shredded to just for the sake of like doing all this for that deep sense of fulfillment. But yeah, like you were saying, we are, you know, tap dancing around the space, but that space is doing a lot of damage. And this actually goes back to what I was saying earlier of like, we put all these barriers in front of our own happiness and we don't even stop to think like, where did I learn this from? Where did I learn that this was the answer? What's the person that like prescribed this to me actually thinking about me and my best interest, right? Like we're taking advice or they're taking advice from people that don't know anything about them. Like if you went on like Yahoo Answers and just asked a random question and then took a random answer from the responses and based your life around that, that would be literally insane. Yeah. And I think that, I think that like the red pill space, people are viewing it as the problem. I think it's a symptom of the problem. It's not. It's like the gasoline to the fire. Yeah. I think the overall issue is men, men don't know where to go or what to do. And this is something that is attempting, I'm using air quotes, to solve the problem or their problem. Yeah. And they're giving them some sort of path forward, but it's, it's incomplete. Yeah. It's not a holistic solution. And that's, that's why it can be so dangerous. But it's, you know, I'm not going to act like, you know, all of it is bad, like I said before. But it's just the, there's no focus on the mental and emotional piece. It's just you got to become a savage. You got to be, you got to be a hard ass dude. Yeah. Like that's not, that's just bad advice. That's just straight up bad advice. And, you know, like it's a community that like prides themselves. Because, you know, like the metaphor is you take the red pill, you see the truth. If you, like just, just imagine this concept, right? You have a community that is literally founded on we see the truth. Yeah. By that definition, you should be able to go into that community and meet some of the most impressive people you've ever met. They have incredible insights. They just have like characteristics and ways of articulating themselves that will be worthy of emulation. Is that the case when you enter those communities? No. Absolutely not, right? So it can't be the truth if it's not, if it doesn't inspire you like to be more grounded in reality. Yeah. And the funny thing is like when you go to, it kind of sounds like a lot of like conspiracy theorist stuff is like the truth. You want to know the truth? It's as if there is a singular truth. Like it's, yeah, it's a perspective. Yeah. But it's not, like I said before, it's incomplete. It's not holistic. And it just leads guys down a path that I'm not really, I'm not really bullish on for their long term success. I imagine like crypto. Yeah. Yeah. And like one of the things we wanted to talk about during this discussion was that like there's something to say about when you're, when your actions and your values are congruent, that's, and you're working towards something that has all of that into one. That's when you, you're really on the right path to becoming the man you want to be. It's not like, cause I remember like for a personal example for everybody, when I was younger, like I didn't really, I guess I didn't really get the guidance that I wanted, that I needed in a lot of ways for a bunch of different reasons that I won't get into. But I just, I looked towards the internet, I looked towards, you know, the other people, friends of the world. And what I was met with was a lot of, you know, super like, how do I describe it? Dismissive? No, like kind of like alpha male beliefs. Like you have to be, you have to be, it's kind of like the red pill. Well, yeah. I mean, if you're in a position of weakness, like strength is going to be a very attractive proposition. Yeah. Like specifically like with girls and whatnot, like, you know, oh, well, in popular culture, it's like you look at famous people, you know, artists, whatnot. It's, you know, how, how attractive are the women that you get and how many of them do you get? And like, that's your, that's your worst. That's your worst. It's all your worst. And like, that's what you should be aspiring to. But that's, that's like never what I was. I was looking for some, somebody to, you know, to build something with, to have a connection with. To, yeah, obviously, you know, have a relationship, but it's, it just wasn't congruent. It was like I was, because of the bad advice or modeling that I was getting, I was trying to be something that I was not. And it always felt weird. It always felt a little off. Yeah. And my actions, like, I didn't feel good about, it's not like I did anything crazy, but like, I wasn't me. Yeah. And that was, and that wasn't it. And that was a problem because I wasn't fulfilled. Yeah. When I would, when I would, when I would try to do things to subscribe to, you know, that belief of thing, of the world and how to be a man. It, it didn't, it didn't fulfill me. And it was like, wow, like, this is a, so you're telling me that this is the way to be. Yet when I do the things I don't feel, I don't feel whole. I don't feel fulfilled. I mean, you should, you should listen to your intuition. It's like, and what you're saying reminds me of like what I just recently went through that I was talking to you about, where it was like, I want to do the copywriting appointments and everything. But like, truthfully, I didn't actually want to do that. And the more I did, the more empty I felt until I eventually pulled the plug. And I was like, no, let me do what I actually want to do. Let me do something I feel aligned with, that I feel like I'm good at. Right. And so that, you know, now I'm here. Yeah. I mean, it's not to say you weren't good at what you were doing. Yeah. It was just that, I guess it was like what Hafiz was saying about the sandcastles and pyramids. It's like, this feels like I'm just building a sandcastle over and over again, as opposed to setting foundations for a stable pyramid. And I want to build a stable pyramid. So I want to do like a mental health, I'm going to have a mental health practice. When I have clients, I want to see my impact in the world. And I want to just do that and build over time. Yeah. Because, excuse me, like there's a lot of pressure on guys to be successful, like right away. Yeah. Like, there's a great quote. I forget which song it was, but it was like, you know, F being 40, man, I'm trying to make it now. Like, F being rich when I'm 40, I'm trying to make it now. Now he's almost 40. Yeah, he is almost 40. That is funny. But, yeah, it's like, that's cool for you, the artist who is internationally renowned. 25 sitting on 25 now. Yeah, exactly. Like, if that's you, then like, fantastic. But like, you're .000001% of men. Yeah. Literally the biggest artist, right? Yeah, like, yeah. Like, you know, he's more slaps than the Beatles. Like, so it's, did you see he got like a tat of, it was like, I forget, I think it's on his arm. It was like, you know, the Beatle cover where they're walking across that street. His story sounds familiar. Yeah, it's like that. They're walking across like that street in London, the crosswalk. And it's like, they're walking and then it's, they're following him on the tattoo because he passed them in like overall number ones or whatever it was. But that was just, I just remembered that. That was hilarious. But, yeah, like, everyone wants everything right now. We want everything right now. Right now, I need to be, I need to have seven figures right now. I need to be in the best shape of my life right now. I got to have a baddie on my arm right now. I have to have a multi, like multimillion dollar company built right now. And we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and it doesn't, it makes us be more prone to wanting to build those sandcastles. To try to just, you know, get everything good for, oh, I want to make, that's how you fall into the traps of like when people are like, I can get you to 20K a month. Yep. Immediately. All the marketing numbers. Yeah, all the numbers, the blank K a month. And, you know, there's, oh, I'm not going to say all those people are like scammers or whatever. But, because there are definitely like. I will say that. I haven't experienced all of them, so I can't. I've met many of them. And there you go. But that's, because of that pressure we put on ourselves, we're much more vulnerable to those offers. Yeah. I mean, the whole reason those offers exist is because like, I mean, when I was studying marketing informally, one thing I was taught was like, you want to have a highly desirable result with minimum effort on the part of the person giving it to you. Yep. And then, you know, there was very little emphasis placed on like delivering that. Yeah. There was a lot of. What did that look like? Yeah, because, you know, I was talking to him. I was like, how do I get to 10K a month? And he was like, he was only giving me advice to get me to 10K a month. He wasn't giving me advice to how to effectively deliver the product more consistently or really anything about the product. It was like, just say you can get them to this result and then like manipulate the refund policy and then, you know, learn how to deal with the chargebacks. And it was like, what the fuck am I learning? Yeah. Like, that's not cool. Like, it's the integrity piece is just kind of missing from it. And like, I've seen what a lot of those, what a lot of those creators will do is they'll, they might get to 10K a month, one month. And then they'll like create that coaching program on how other people to do it. And then like, that's how they make their money, even though they're, they're not even really building anything. It's not like they've built something. Like someone like a, like it's antithetical to someone like Alex Formosy who like does it. Like has made his portfolio companies make over $100 million a year. Yeah. And has done it for years. That's why it's, that's why it's like when he speaks about business, like it's not just a theoretical thing. It's a holistic understanding based in actual life experience. Mm-hmm. Communicated, articulated. Like, you can't be that smart about business and not be about it. Yeah. Not on his level. Like in the, like in the $100 million leads launch he just did. Like he made it a point to all the main principles of how to get leads, he used all of them. Yeah. And to get the launch, to get as many people sign up for the launch as possible. And, you know, it's like, yes, someone could tell you that the concepts work, but then they show you based off of their own experiences and their own stuff. Mm-hmm. And, you know, a lot of his explanation of the why is like, yeah, when I was building this company I was using these, these, these principles. Yeah. And that's showing somebody it's like, this is what happened, this is how I did it, and this is how I do it for other people. And it's like, you can, you have the receipts. That's way more impactful than, oh, yeah, I can get you to $10K a month once. Yeah. And also, if you, if, I don't know if you've seen the video, but Alex Samozy actually does also talk about, like, how to use social proof, like, in a, in a way that, like, it, what's the word I'm looking for? I guess like, like, with integrity. Yeah. And he says, like, when you're, when you're marketing your product and you want to say that it works, you don't have videos of people talking, saying, oh, I get $10K a month and Sally did it too, and. Yeah. Here's a person that I'm friends with that's obviously going to say nice things and. Yeah. What he does is, like, he shows the data. He's like, okay, well, in our last launch, 63% of people who invested in the program saw this result, right? Yep. And it's like, that's, if you think, that's also what, like, you know, universities do, like Harvard and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, they don't say, like, this guy graduated in finance and make X amount of money. He's like, this is, out of all the people, this percentage found jobs after employment and this percentage is the average, you know, salary that they're making. This is the degrees that they graduated in. Like, it's just straight data. Like, it doesn't say anything outside of, here's what happened. Yeah. And then you can, like, make that decision. Because testimonials are great and they're one of the main things that, like, will drive. Social proof is huge, yeah. Yeah, social proof is immensely huge. And the testimonials will get you business and will continue to get you business. But, you know, data is very helpful, you know. Like, also, like, the phrase, what gets measured gets managed. Yeah. If you're keeping data on something and you're finding that whatever service or product you're providing people isn't performing up to the metrics that you would want it to, then you know that you have, like, a trail of breadcrumbs to, like, get you to, like, okay, well, this is what I need to improve on. But, yeah, like, what we say all this to communicate to everybody is that when you're looking for, like, role models, for people to guide you, you need to look for people who are individuals who, like, are holistically inclined to look at the problem. Like, they can't just be focused on one aspect or another and just completely ignore, like, half or more of the pie. Like, you can't expect to be a successful man and not understand how to be mentally and emotionally healthy. Yeah. It's just not going to happen. Like, you're going to burn out at some point. You're going to, it's going to, and people think, people may think, like, oh, you know, I'm just going to, I'll just spend my money or get another girl. It's like, it's not that simple. It's not that simple. Also, like you said, with the money and the girl, you're trying to solve an internal problem with external resources. Exactly. And it's like, a lot of these guys, and I've heard these stories, right? So, this isn't something per person. This is something I've observed and heard from, like, other therapists and psychiatrists and stuff. It's like, a lot of these guys that, like, just work, work, work, work, make money, make money, make money, have a girl on arm, like, a lot of those guys, they'll be in a psychiatrist's office at, like, 40, 50 years old. Like, yo, I hate my life. Yeah. Not realizing that, like, they were optimizing for a variable that wasn't going to lead them where they wanted to go. Yeah, and one of the biggest things, like, with coaching, with counseling, is, like, at the very beginning, in the intake session, it's a conversation that is had where you say, where you ask the client, what do you want out of this? Like, what is the result you want in your life? What do you value? Like, and why do you value it? Because that's what we're doing it for. It's like, we want to get you to where you're, like, not where other people tell you that you should be. What do you want your life to look like? I love what you're saying this, man, because this is literally what happened with me. Like, I was in the therapist's office, and he just asked me one day, because I was telling him all my problems. I'm like, you know, I'm like, this problem, that problem. He's like, well, what do you want? Like, what do you want? What pushes you here? Yeah, like, what do you want? Yeah, and once I was, like, I put the ego to the side, and I was like, okay, I'm going to say it out loud, even though it doesn't feel good. This is what I want. And when I said it, it was like a weight was lifted, and then I could, like, make decisions that were actually aligned with what I wanted. And you're moving with a purpose after that, because it was towards that goal. Yeah, and I would like to ask you, as, like, the former counselor, like, how would you say that I've been since that realization, those changes? I mean, you definitely seem way more, like, grounded, and just, because you were definitely, like, you put a lot of pressure on yourself to be successful. And it's not to say that you don't want to be successful now, but it's not that I have to make it. I have to make it. I have to do this. I have to do that. And, like, I remember we had conversations where you said that you were kind of had, like, writer's block in a way. Yeah. Like, you didn't, you had, you knew you had all these things you had to do, or you had all these things you wanted to do, but the, weren't able to focus, and the action wasn't taking place. Yeah. And now, you have a much more, like, well-defined plan, and the execution is there, and also, like, the day-to-day, like, anxiety and stress just. Gone. There you go. Gone. And that's a beautiful thing, bro, because, like, we're not meant to have constant anxiety and, like, existential dread and stress about things. No. Like, that anxiety and that stress exists so we can, like, run away from predators for, like, maybe, like, a day. It's not meant for you to constantly, it's not meant to constantly be turned on to you worrying about how to pay the rent. Like, that's super unhealthy. Yeah. Like, I've talked about it many times before, and, you know, now that we're recording, everyone else gets to hear, but, like, your brain, your brain is meant for survival. Yeah. Like, that's what it's wired for. So, when you, you know, like, you're in the wilderness, and you see a snake, and it jumps out at you and tries to bite you, like, you're going to be wary of the snake next time you see it. Yeah. Like, duh, you're going to have anxiety, like, oh, well, now I'm in the wilderness, what if I run into a snake? Yeah. Before the snake even showed up. Exactly. That's, that's where it, like, comes from, and then we apply it to all the other facets of life. You know, oh, well, you know, I'm 14 years old, I've never asked a girl out on a date before, and then I ask her out to be my girlfriend, she says no, and then the next time... That's the snake, yeah. Yeah, then that's the snake. That's what you're worrying against. And the cycle that a lot of people fall into is, they then, anytime that stimuli comes up, they avoid it. They just, they just, you know, whip out, they hide, they just, like, crawl into a hole, they just, or they just kind of withdraw from anything that could even put them in a scenario like that. Yeah, they create walls and box themselves in. Yeah, and in doing so, the ironic part is, like, in doing that, you prevent yourself from ever getting the thing that you wanted in the first place. Yeah. But, you know, once you avoid that stimuli, you get that little, little temporary sense of relief, and then, you know, you're good for a little bit. But then you're thinking about, well, what if I should have done this? I should have did it. Yeah. But then that fear grows more and more. And then when it hits you, it hits you, like, all at once. Yeah. This is why, when, like, sometimes people who have, like, super intense anxiety about things that seem very normal or, like, non-special. Yeah. They, you're just like, dude, what's wrong with you? Like, how are you, how are you, like, flipping out over, like, a door closing? Well, it's like, well, that, for a specific example like that, that's probably a deeper, deeper issue. Yeah. But I think it's like a muscle, right? If you're, if you have, like, zero ability to deal with stress, like, there have been times in my life, I remember when I was, like, younger, I'd be scared to just, like, make phone calls to, like, the university financial aid department. Now I'm just, now I'm just, like, making phone calls daily, having these long conversations, you know, trying to be a therapist, like, it's not, it's like a muscle you build up. Yeah. And that's because in my, excuse me, because I run, you know, Master Your Mindset and, like, it was, like, a side thing right now until I built it up to be my full-time gig. And right now I'm a school counselor at a high school in Orlando, Florida. And something I see a lot with these kids is, because, you know, my age group is, like, 14 through 18. Oh, I used to teach high school, I'm aware. Yeah. They're an interesting group. They're an interesting group. And there's a lot of things that, like, what I've found with them is, like, the kids at the high end are, like, they have way more, they have more advantages than we did when we were their age. So they're killing it. They're doing great. But it's, like, the middle and then lower is just a lot of it's, you know, their circumstances, their environment. Like, I feel like with kids, like, they're empty vessels to begin with. And then they just, like, you know, they have their genetic predispositions. But a lot of it is their environment and the nurture part. Parking at a high school age. Yeah. And they don't know how to deal with anything. They don't know how to deal with anything. The amount of kids that talk about my anxiety, my anxiety, my anxiety, my anxiety, my anxiety, I can't do this because of my anxiety. And I'm, like, you are telling yourself this. I hope you, like, I hope you know that. Like, there was a study done on eighth graders. Researchers wanted to dive a little bit more into anxiety. I'm, like, okay, well, let's see how it goes with kids. Because, you know, anxiety, a lot of it is learned. So there's a group of eighth graders. There's, they had all the, these kids are going into, what is it, they're trying out for sports teams. They're trying out for a school play. Running for, yeah, student office. Like, things like that. And, you know, they had them rate their anxiety on a scale of 1 to 10. So about half the kids had, like, really high anxiety, like 7, 8, 9. And then the others just didn't really have anxiety. So the ones that were, so they didn't really focus too much on the ones that, like, weren't anxious. So the ones that were anxious, they went to, they observed their behavior. And some of them tried out. Some of them auditioned. Some of them did not. And when they circled back after to be, like, hey, so they went to the kids that did audition and did try out. So they're, like, hey, you said that you were super anxious. What made you want to try out anyways? And pretty much all of them said, well, in order to get what I wanted, the only way to do it was to face the anxiety and do it anyways. Then when they went to the kids who didn't try out, who didn't audition because of their anxiety, what they said was the only way to get my anxiety to go away was to not try out, to not audition. And in a nutshell, that's communicating that in order to make my anxiety go away, I got to not do the things that I care about. I have to run away from the issues that face me. And that's the root of where anxiety comes from for most people. I think both of those kids also, like, an interesting thought I had was that both of those kids kind of did the same thing. Whereas, like, the kids that did audition were like, I want the thing at the end, right? Yes. But for the other group, they still were chasing what they wanted in the end. It's just the thing that they wanted was comfort. Yeah. Whereas what the other group wanted was the, I guess, the role in the play or whatever. And so... That's a great point. Yeah. They're both chasing what they want. It's just you have to, like, whatever you want, you will gravitate towards even if you don't realize it. Yeah. Like, if you're prioritizing not feeling bad, then, yeah, you're going to be more prone to avoiding those situations. But if you prioritize, hey, I want to accomplish these goals, I want to have friends, I want to have these experiences, and you just have to overcome the anxiety as you do it, you're going to be more inclined to actually take that action. Yeah. And that's why it's crazy, man, because, like, it really comes down to that mindset. If you just want to... I think the fallacy that people fall into is that there's just an anxiety-free life exists. Yeah. You know? Like, it's not completely ever going to go away. It might not be as intense as it once was for you as you, you know, because, you know, with mental health and coping skills and things like that, it's similar to, like, in the gym. You know? If you want to grow bigger biceps, you do a set of bicep curls. You put stress on your muscles. Yeah. Yeah. You break down the muscle, and then it grows back stronger, and then you slowly increase the weight. You slowly increase the reps. And over time, your bicep gets bigger. You're stronger. You're more able to deal with that load. And it's the same thing with mental health-wise. You are able to conquer bigger challenges. You're able to deal with more things. You're able to grow that capacity. And if that's the goal is to be able to deal with more, because as we get older, bro, like, it ain't going to get easier. It's, like, at least that's what I've experienced in my life. The challenges don't exactly become easier. Well, you just get different challenges. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of times you put in the work in the beginning on the front end, and then you're better equipped to deal with, you know, more challenges. Like, you know, once you have a mortgage, you have a wife, you have kids, you have, you know, businesses, you have things that you're responsible for. Yeah. Like, if you didn't build up that emotional and mental resiliency when you were younger, it's going to be tough for you. Like, it's not that you can't do it, but, like, at some point. It's interesting, because it's easier to do it than you think, but, like, it's going to feel harder. Yeah. Right? Because you could probably, I saw something interesting that said, like, you could offset eight years of, like, just not focusing on something with six months of genuine, intentional learning, right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, not to get people like, hey, get complacent, but it's easier than you think, but it's going to feel harder than it is. Yeah, and it's going to be very foreign to you. Like, if you've never, like, done, like, breathing exercises for anxiety, the first couple times you do it, you're going to be like, bro, this shit doesn't work. Bro, meditation at first is awful. Yeah. I'm wasting my time. Like, this doesn't work for me. My brain hurts. Give me my phone. Yeah. Yeah, and then you just gravitate towards that comfort. You go back to what you've been doing. And, you know, at the end of the day, if you keep doing that, you're going to get what you've been getting. And that's not what you, is it? Yeah. Is that what you want? Is that what you want? I don't think it is. You've got to ask them. You can't tell them. You've got to ask them. Yeah. So, it's interesting. I just feel like I'm glad that mental health has gotten more, you know, notoriety and more attention now than it used to. Because, like, you know, when I was a kid, it really wasn't a talking point. People didn't really talk about it. Like, it was just, oh, that person's crazy or whatever. Oh, they have this, like, put them on meds. Like, there was no, like, normalization of counseling and therapy and wanting to improve your mental and emotional health. It was just like, oh, you're an adult. You'll be fine. Yeah. Life's hard for all of us. I mean, it's just a privilege in a way that we can care about something like this, you know. Because, in the past, it was kind of like life was just geared for survival, right? Like, oh, you're mentally unhealthy. Like, you know. Yeah. We're going to die. Like, we can't focus on that. Yeah. Because, I mean, if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty, you don't need to be happy to, like, live. Like, people have lived lives where they've been suffering for, like, the entire time. The entire time, yeah. And, like, you're not going to die if you're not happy. You just, it's a preference, which obviously we... It's an ideal, yeah. Yeah, it's ideal. Like, you know, there are going to be some times in life where, like, you're going to deal with things. And it might not be, it's peaks and valleys. Like, it's a roller coaster. You're going to have times where things are going to go better than average, things are going to go worse than average. And that's fine. But you're not, it's not, when people say, like, oh, well, if it gets to this point, I just can't take it anymore. Like, yes, you can. Like, yes, you can. You'd be surprised what happens when you have no choice. Yeah. It's like you're right here. Your example right now is, you know, if I just get one more thing added to my tasks, like, I just, I can't take it. It's like, yes, you can. Yeah. You can. You just need to get yourself composed and focused enough to deal with that. And that's foreign to a lot of people. And, you know, like I was saying with the kids at my school, like, I see that a lot of parents, in a good-natured way, they want to remove a lot of obstacles for their kids that, like, they might have had to face or that they don't want their kids to have to deal with. Yeah. But long- They'll yell at you to make that happen. Oh, they do. They do. I've been threatened with some lawsuits for not changing Spanish 1s on a kid's schedule because, oh, Lord. Some of these parents are, you know, they mean well. They want the best for their kid. Yeah. But mom and dad's not happy. But, yeah. And at that point, I'm just like, listen, man, this is what I can do for you. But if you need anything else, you can go up the line of command. You can talk to my boss or the other administrators. But what sometimes will happen is you remove some roadblocks in the beginning, and later on, they're not prepared for the bigger roadblocks. Yeah. Then they just stop. Yeah. It's- I don't know. That's just what I see. It's going to be interesting as time goes on because, you know, we certainly don't know everything right now. We're never going to know everything. No. A lot of it is based off of, you know, projections on- And who knows? Maybe. Maybe at some point, those kids get it right, and they figure out how to cope even with, you know, parents removing the roadblocks from their lives. Yeah. But it's not- They're not going to be succeeding because of that. Yeah. It's going to be the work they do on their own. A hundred percent. No, you're just giving me a lot of memories of back when I was a teacher. But, yeah, it's interesting because a lot of this is, in a way, self-inflicted. Just because at the end of the day, like, how much responsibility are you going to take for your own life? Like, what are the things you actually want? Are you running away from things you actually want in favor of something that you want more? Are you aware of what you want more? It's like, you have to answer- Like, to become actually emotionally aware is a very difficult thing to do when you're starting from scratch. Oh, yeah. It's like almost impossible. And one thing that I learned very intimately when I was a teacher was that a lot of students are multi-year projects. You can't want the results quickly. They're multi-year projects, maybe even a decade. Like, for me- I like that. Yeah. I forgot. Someone I used to work with told me that. I can't remember who. But, yeah, kids are multi-year projects. Well, really, they're lifelong projects, but from when the time you have them. Like, I remember there was one kid that, like, cursed me out, like, my first month of teaching. And then, like, by the end of graduation, we're, like, joking about, like, boxing together and sparring. That's great. And, like, because, yeah, we just- We want everything right now. With the ease of living that technology has afforded us is- Day-to-day life now is, like, way better than it's ever been. If you can appreciate it, yeah. If you can appreciate it. If you can't, it's going to feel awful. Oh, yeah. Because, you know, I mean, going back to, you know, the discussion earlier of, like, the Red Pill folks is, like, things need to go back to the 1950s, like the good old days. I'm like, was it the good old days? Bro, I want to have an episode just on that. Like, was it the good old days? They literally look at the 1950s and 60s and think that that was all of human history. Like, most of human history was- Like, the marriage rate- That's another episode. That is another episode. Like, if you actually look at the data, like, you'll find that almost all of their claims are, like, incomplete or just flat out wrong. Yeah. But that's- Okay, let me get off that one. I don't want to villainize anyone. I just want to- Yeah. We want to get to healthy, productive discussions on how to make men's mental health better. Yeah. Absolutely. And the first step is just recognizing that you do need to put work in on that area. Like, you can't just ignore it and think things are going to be fine. But I thought money, muscle, and status was all I needed. No, we all, bro. Like, it's- Yeah, we all fall for it. We all fall for it because it's so enticing. It can't event. But, yeah, like, if someone tells you, like, oh, it's that, you know, that highly desirable outcome without any- No effort. No effort, it's- Just buy my dating program. Yeah, just do businesses. You don't have to worry about all this over here. Like, that's- Therapy. That's for women. That's liberal BS. Yeah, it's like, nah, bro. That's- They're selling a dream and they're profiting off of it. Yeah. And I just- It's one of the bigger problems that I want to try to contribute to a solution as time goes on. Yeah. And provide men with more of these, more of, like, actual guidance and mentorship. Yeah, like an alternative, right? Because with the State of the Union we recently had with the standard, it was like, there's a problem, but, like, we're not trying to fix it. Well, now we're trying to fix it. Yeah. We're trying to fill the gap in the wall. Yeah. And so many people, they're, not my problem. Oh, that's- That's them, let me just, I'll be on my yacht. That's a bunch of insults. I'll be on my yacht with my baddie and we'll be good. Like, that's, if you really want to make it, don't say you want to make an impact and then just opt out. Like, if you don't want to, like, okay. But, like, where are the men that are willing to put their neck on the line to help other people? Like, people, you know, every day, like, one of my- So one of my biggest gripes when I was in grad school was, this was 2018 to 2020, so it was a time, Trump was in office, so it was a time where, you know, anything, even remotely, not even right-wing, just, like, everything was against him. And it was very, like, let's criticize, criticize, criticize, which it's not just an exclusively Trump thing or whatever. Everyone loves to criticize the government and the systems and all that, which I understand. There's a lot of issues. Yeah. But what I noticed was it was all criticism, no solution. Yeah. No, oh, well, this is going to help. It's like, oh, we're going to protest. Nothing against protesting. Yeah. Do your thing. But there's nothing after awareness. It's just raise awareness, raise awareness, raise awareness. Nothing else. And it's like, that's not how you completely solve an issue. It's like, you're not actually following through. Yeah. You're just, you're doing part, you're doing chapter one, and there's however many chapters to the book, and you're just focusing on this chapter, and you're like, oh, well, I don't know, I'm just going to sit for my perch in life and just criticize. Yeah. And speaking of chapters and books, you remind me of a book I read called The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg. I don't know if you've read it, but the book literally talks about the way you create systemic change is not by the endless criticizing. It's by putting yourself in, because a lot of habit formation is community, especially at that level. And so you want to basically put yourself in social environments and become valuable in those environments so that you can exert more influence over time and that other people look to you. And they'll even volunteer you to be that beacon of change. Like with Martin Luther King Jr., he started out as a pastor. Yeah. I remember he almost didn't even participate in the civil rights movement to the extent that he did. But he had people around him that was like, hey, man, you are the guy. Yeah. You have the respect and admiration of the community that needs you. And so it was that that led to him actually making the change. It wasn't just him going, our rights are being infringed and just going on that spirit, which he did bring awareness. But like you said, there was that second step advocacy and execution. Yeah. It's like, this is what we're going to do and we're going to execute on it. There's more than just a, well, this is a problem. Yeah. And that's, I felt a lot of, I always, it just became very, very obvious to me that that was the position of most people. It was just, I'm going to complain and that's it. I'm just going to sit back and chill for my period and not. But, you know, like you said about, you know, Dr. MLK, like you, your leaders are called. And, you know, I do think that we need more leaders. We need more people who are willing to step up to the plate. And, you know, people that are in communities to where we can, because we're way stronger together than we are apart. Like that's one of the great things about organizations like the standard, like, you know, groups of business owners, groups of entrepreneurs, what have you, is you can really, you can pool together resources and influence. And then you can actually, yeah, in your network and you can actually create change. That's what it looks like. But in order to do that, because in order to change a system, you, or you have to, you have to build yourself up first and make sure, you know, it's the old Michael Jackson song. Like, you know, I'm starting with the man in the mirror. Like you have to start with you because if you're not starting with, if you're just throwing stones while you live in a glass house, like it's not going to end well for you. Like, and you're not going to have the influence that you might want to. So you, no matter what business you start, no matter what organization you're trying to be a part of, you have to be the embodiment of the values of that organization, of that business. Because if you aren't, then that congruence piece that we talked about is not going to be there and people are going to see that. Yeah, like whether you, no matter what you want to achieve, like, you know, societal reform, personal growth, emotional health, like that congruency is like the number one piece that holds it all together. You can't really get very far without it. Yeah, it's, and instead of like, I think I want to just, what I want to highlight is that it's not like, it's not something extra, like it's a vital part of the machine. Yeah. Like, I'm not a big car guy, but like, it's the transmission, like you need one. Like you can't just have a car without one that's going to get you to where you need to go without one. Yeah. You, it's an integral piece of the pie and you're not going to go far without, without putting any effort towards that. And you try to compensate with these other, with these other areas, it might work for a period of time. But you don't even know how long. Yeah, it's almost kind of, it's almost kind of stupid. Like a time bomb without a timer. Yeah. You're like waiting, you're waiting on your inevitable demise, but you don't know, you don't know when it's going to happen. Yeah, that's the scary part, because like, you never, you never like sit there and go, I'm going to, I'm going to be incongruent for this long until I feel like I need to be. But yeah, that's a very good point, making me think about some things. Yeah, man. So, yeah, I appreciate everybody for tuning in to Episode 1 of Mastermindset Podcast. We're going to be recording probably once every couple of weeks, just to give some, you know, regular content to everybody. Just starting discussion. But yeah, so this has been Episode 1. Appreciate everybody for tuning in. And yeah, we will catch you all next time. I look forward to it. Beautiful. Did it stop recording? Yeah. At least on both of these. No, it looks like it's still recording. Let me stop it. On there, yeah. That was fine.