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The hosts discuss whether civil disobedience is the most effective way to achieve equality and social change. They compare the peaceful March on Washington in 1963, which led to the passing of the Civil Rights Act, with the 2020 BLM protests, which started peacefully but turned violent. The BLM protests resulted in positive outcomes such as increased recognition of Juneteenth and police reforms. The hosts conclude that the effectiveness of protests depends on the cause and that civil disobedience can be a powerful tool. Welcome back to the Montana Lowdown. This is Toby Dinges, and today I'll be joined by my co-host Sadie Nordahl, where we'll be discussing if civil disobedience is the most effective means of achieving equality and social change. Sadie Nordahl is a Nobel Peace winner, along with advocate for African Americans, so we're welcome to have her today on the show. We're honored to be joined by Sadie Nordahl, a Nobel Peace Prize winner and African American advocate. It feels so good to be back after the long break. How have you been, Toby? I've been great. It's been a good long break, but we're ready to get back and compare the March on Washington and recent BLM movements. Yeah, so in my recent profession, I've seen a major change in the way people have protested, and let's start on the March on Washington and analyze the effects on recent protests. The March on Washington was led by MLK on August 28, 1963, and was one of the largest civil rights movement protests. It was born in the National Archives that was written by Michael Davis, Jr., and graduated with multiple degrees and a black advocate for civil rights. Over 250,000 people attended the march. The march was a peaceful, nonviolent protest that helped pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It's important to note how effective this protest was as it being one of the biggest nonviolent protests. Looking at recent BLM movements, such as the 2020 George Floyd movement, what change have we seen compared to the March on Washington in 1963 until 2020? Well, the BLM protest from 2020 included violence, which included citizens burning down buildings and being maced and beaten, and it was just complete chaos from May 25 to about June 9. The death of George Floyd enraged Minneapolis, where the riots originated, creating huge riots involving 15 million to 26 million participants over the time span of about a month. However, these protests did begin as just a march, only including civil disobedience, but it took a turn for the worse. It's crazy to see what 60 years can do. So, Toby, what exactly was the March on Washington? The March on Washington was a fight for employment equality for African Americans and non-American races. The March on Washington occurred August 28, 1963, at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C. The speakers included the big six, and most notably, MLK spoke his I Have a Dream speech that day. When you look at the march, what made it so notable in history? Well, the march is the most memorable because it allowed for people to speak their voice, and the March on Washington deeply affected the views of racial segregation and intolerance in our nation. So, do you think it was needed at the time? Oh, for sure. I think if it didn't happen, we'd still be in a very dark and scary place. So what led up to this march, and how did this march happen? So what led up to this march is that it was a fight for employment equality, which was needed at the time because they were so separated. So two people had the vision. Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin were the first to plan the March on Washington. According to the Economic Policy Institute, the lack of voting rights and unemployment amongst African Americans was a major issue at the time. So who were Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin? They were both black civil rights activists and were well known in the industry. But overall, the march was successful for those two because they were working to fight for equality in the workforce for everyone. Yeah, I think this is by far the most important protest we've covered so far. Now that we have fully covered the march, what happened at the BLM protest, Sadie? The BLM protests were significantly different from the march because the BLM protests were a response to the death of George Floyd. I'm sure everyone is familiar with what happened, but to recap, in Minneapolis on May 25, 2020, George Floyd was faced with extreme police brutality. Officer Jared Chavin kneeled on Floyd's neck, which ultimately resulted in his death. So where did this protest expand out to? Because I know it was in Minneapolis, but where did it go out to? Yeah, so it started in Minneapolis, but according to the New York Times, riots broke out in over 550 places across the United States, where millions of people joined these protests. But it took a turn for the worse. The protests became violent, like people burning down buildings and protesters being maced and tased. However, this was mostly in Minneapolis, but the protests occurring in other cities were pretty peaceful for the most part. So when we look at that, obviously it's bad, but what are the outcomes of the protests? I know the officers ended up getting fired and charged with murder, but other than that, I'm not familiar with the accomplishments that actually happened. Yeah, so according to Changing America, there were many positive outcomes of this, such as the recognition of Juneteenth increased, where companies showed their support for the movement and gave employees the day off to show the support, and bigger companies such as Reddit began showing sincere solidarity with the Black Lives movement, as well as other companies that had a history of racial discrimination, where major owners would step down and come out with statements saying they were going to fix their practices and make their company a more inclusive environment. The point is that these protests put pressure on the companies to show their support of the movement. So what laws came out of this, or did any laws come out of this? So there was a major police reform that outlawed chokeholds altogether and allowed other officers to intervene with any authorized force by another officer. These police reforms also evaluated the way they train the officers and expand laws based on who can join the law enforcement. So would you consider these accomplishments as significant or more significant than the march? I think that they were both significant in very different ways. The Civil Rights Act were obviously very effective, however, there were some holes in it. If there wasn't, then we wouldn't still be dealing with the issue. The more recent protests are fighting to fix the holes that the Civil Rights Act did not address, but together racial discrimination can be cut even further, which is the goal. But you have to think about the fact that there's always going to be those people that don't adhere to these laws, and that's an issue that can't be fixed, but we can bring recognition towards the issue. So Sadie, is civil disobedience the most effective means of achieving equality and social change? Well, there's no clear answer to that, however, throughout our research we have found that civil disobedience powers specific protests. So I know we looked at the March in Washington and BLM movements. What type of protest was the BLM movement? The BLM protests were more violent than the march, however, before the violence began the protests were peaceful until receiving backlash from the police. However, according to the Washington Post written by Kirby Goff and John D. McCarthy, both with many PhDs specifically in sociology and criminology, only 4% of these protests consisted of property damage directed around Minneapolis, and only 1% involved police injury. Based on this information, 95% of the protests were peaceful, and just a large march involved being many people. Toby, what did you see in the March on Washington? So the March on Washington was definitely a peaceful protest. According to the Congressional Records Senate written by Dick McDonald, who was an author for the Senate during the march, the crowds were calm and there were no incidents reported by the police. The march was a peaceful occasion, and the speakers had uplifting and inspirational speeches such as Margaret Luther King's I Have a Dream speech, which has changed our history. Yeah, so do you think the most successful protests end up being peaceful with little to no backlash or violence? I'd say yes, because when you look back in history, the ones with a lot of violence are not as successful as the ones with a little violence. Yeah, I can agree with you on that. So today we observed if civil disobedience is the most effective means of achieving equality and social change. We looked at the March on Washington and the BLM movements. We found that a majority of successful protests have lashes of civil disobedience. Recent BLM movements were known as civil disobedient protests, while the March on Washington was a full peaceful protest approved by the government. I think that in this case, it really depends on the cause of the protest. Like the BLM protest was a result of someone being killed, and the march was a result of employment discrimination. The causes were significantly different, which caused different reactions and different levels of violence within them, some of which called for some sort of civil disobedience to achieve their goals and bring attention to the cause. Well, you said it perfectly. So I just want to say thank you for all the information on the recent BLM movements and as a brief description, be sure to tune in next week for the fight for freedom and a storyline of the Underground Railroad featuring Harriet Tubman. Yeah, well, that's all for this week. Hope you learned something and as always, have a super day.