TotalConundrumEP02 - Umm anyone have a flow chart

The podcast hosts discuss their interest in the supernatural and their recent experience with a new app called Randonautica. They share their love for all things creepy but admit they don't like being scared. They mention their Halloween decorations and plans to expand their ghost hunting collection. They then introduce the story of the Pike County Massacre, a tragic event that shook a peaceful community. The hosts play a 911 call reporting the discovery of several deceased individuals in their homes. The details of the crime and the relationships between the victims are explained. The hosts acknowledge that it is a lot of information and promise to provide a flowchart to help keep track of the people involved. If you dig the twisted, admire the outlandish, and are enamored by the unusual, you're in the right place. True crime, the supernatural, the unexplained, now you're speaking our language. If you agree, join us as we dive into the darker side. You know, because it's more fun over here. Welcome to Total Conundrum. Warning, some listeners may find the following content disturbing. Listener discretion is advised. Hey, Tracy. Hey, Jeremy. How are you? Good. How are you, Tracy? I'm good. So another adventurous recording day. Oh, yeah. What are we going to be talking about today? Today, we are going to be telling the story. Actually, I should say you are going to be telling the story of the Pike County Massacre. That's right. I am. But before we get into that, we decided to try this new fad or new app or I don't know what you want to call it. It's called Randonautica, and it's supposed to take you to random places. You set your intention in your mind as the thing is loading, and it's supposed to take you to like geo spots or random longitude and latitude locations that are supposed to help you find. GPS coordinates. There you go. That's what I was looking for. But they're supposed to help you find your intention. So we decided to go out and do this the other night, and we kept setting our intention to spooky and ghosts. And it really worked, too, because if one of our real intentions was to find boredom, we found it. It kept bringing us to places that had houses or right next to houses, no place we could get out and walk. We did it at night. Jeremy downloaded a bunch of apps on his tablet. So we decided to actually order a voice recorder so we can maybe get some true EVPs. But then we decided or Jeremy talked about going to the graveyard, and I kind of backed out. Well, it's just, you know, like I said, it's one thing to go to a graveyard during the day. But where we live, we're out in the country. So not only are you dealing with the potential of having ghosts everywhere, you're dealing with the potential of a lot of wildlife, including bears. The bears? The bears. Oh, the bears. But we're going to try it again. We're going to try to do EVP, and then maybe eventually we'll start slowly adding to our collection of ghost hunting stuff, and I'll try to get over my fear. I love all things creepy. I just don't like being scared. Am I weird? Is there anybody else out there like me? Yeah, we bought your Halloween animatronics and spooky creatures. Yeah, we do a decked out yard every year. It's full of Halloween stuff, decorations, animatronics. Jeremy created a haunted maze last year that we opened up to people in our town to come out and go through because it turned out really cool. So now we're looking at getting some insurance because we didn't realize that we should probably be insured for something like that. So basically, the moral of the story is she loves to scare, but she hates to be scared. Right. Right. Is there anything wrong with that? That's not very fair, is it? So when Jeremy and I first met, shortly after, we decided to go on a thing with his family members. We went to a Halloween haunt out in a town, I think, was it Shakopee or something like that? It was right outside of Chassie, right where the Renaissance Fairs held. Oh, that's right. So I'm like, OK, yeah, that'll be fun. It's got haunted houses and creepy people walking around. She was definitely scared that night, that's for sure. But it wasn't the haunted house. Oh, your uncle? You saw the full moon, didn't you? I did. I saw the full moon of Scottie B. Well, then we went through this one, the first haunted house, and it was all like basically animatronics. And after the first little section, I got so scared, I ran through, didn't even like sit and watch or look at anything. She left me behind, folks. Well, in my defense, you said that if a ghost pops out in the graveyard, you were going to be gone, too. So you already said you were leaving me in the dust. Well, I guess it's revenge. That's me running really fast. Really fast. Well, anyway, should we get to the story? Let's do it. All right. All right. So, again, this is the Pike County Massacres. So the story starts out in the peaceful countryside of the Pike County. An unimaginable tragedy unfolded, forever changing the lives of an entire community. It was a day that started like any other, with the morning sun casting its golden rays on the rolling hills and picturesque landscapes. But within the walls of several homes, darkness loomed, ready to shatter the peacefulness of the little town. As evening fell the previous night, an evil presence silently crept through the peaceful town, leaving a trail of unspeakable horror in its wake. The Pike County Massacres, a chilling account that would grip the nation, were about to unfold. The tight-knit community would be torn apart, and the echoes of the brutal events would resonate through the years to come. And now I'm just going to play a 911 call from that evening, or that morning. Okay, what's the address? Give me just a second. 4077 E. E. Hill. 4077 E. E. Hill. Okay, 4077 E. E. Hill, correct? Yes, 4077 E. E. Hill. Okay. Leigh Ann? Leigh Ann, can you tell me what's going on? There's blood all over the house. Okay. My brother-in-law's infected, and there's a couple of... I've beat the hell out of them. Okay. There's blood all over the car with them. Leigh Ann, can you tell me what county that's in? It's Pike County. It's Pike County? Yes, and they drive in the back. Okay, okay. I need you to get out of the house. Did you drive over there? Yes, I did. Okay, what's your name? Bobby. Bobby? What's your brother-in-law's name? What's your brother-in-law's name? Bobby. Leigh Ann? Yeah? What's his name? Chris Roden. C.J. Roden. Chris and Gary Roden? Both of them's in there. Looks like they're dead. You think they're both dead? I think they're both dead. Looks like someone has beat the fuck out of them. Okay. Is there anybody else in the house? Not that I know of. Okay. The door was locked when we got there, but I never... I went in and there was nobody on the floor. Bobby, I need you to get out of the house. I'm out of the house. I'm getting out of the car right now. Okay, just stay out of the house. Don't let anybody go in there, okay? Yeah. Alright, we got deputies on the way, okay? Alright, thank you. You're welcome. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh all right all right so that is the both 9-1-1 calls from that morning so at 7 53 on Friday April 22nd 2016 the Pike County Sheriff's Office received that frantic 9-1-1 call we just heard the call is from Bobby Joe Manley she tells the 9-1-1 operator that she had just found the body of her brother-in-law Chris Roden senior 40 years old and his cousin Gary Roden 38 years old deceased in their home when she arrived at their place that morning she stated that she knocked on the door and no one answered she proceeded to let herself in with a key she then called 9-1-1 after discovering them both in a room covered with a blanket that is so scary to think of yeah that would be horrifying something that you'd probably never get rid of that would haunt you for the rest of your life yeah so after the 9-1-1 call she ran over to Frankie's house an adjacent house on the property looking for help but when she went inside she found that both Frankie Roden 20 years old and Hannah Gilley 20 years old were both deceased Frankie's three-year-old son was alive and in the living room and their six-month-old baby was unharmed laying in between them in bed Bobby Joe again called 9-1-1 then called her brother James Manley James immediately went to another Roden family's home just 1.5 miles up the road and discovered another horrifying scene he discovered that his sister Dana Roden 37 and her daughter Hannah Mae Roden 19 also lay deceased in their beds Hannah Mae's five-day-old baby was laying next to her in bed unharmed six people five from the same family have all been found murdered in their homes let's do a quick recap before we add more names to this case Chris Roden Sr. and Dana Roden are divorced and are the parents of Frankie and Hannah Mae Roden they live approximately 1.5 miles apart Hannah Mae lives at home with her mom Frankie lives on the same property as his dad in a different house Frankie's fiance is Hannah Gilley and Gary lives with Chris Sr. and is his cousin so we are very aware that that is a lot of information a lot of names and a lot to take in not only with it being a massacre of six people right now so we'll make sure that we do definitely include a flowchart flowchart bear with us as the story unfolds because there's a lot of people that a lot of names and a lot of craziness yes this is an absolutely insane story now that I probably rattled all your brains with these names and who lives where and with whom let's keep going but buckle up my friends this is going to be a bumpy ride click click news of the brutal massacre spread like wildfire in the community law enforcement from multiple counties reported to the multiple crime scenes worries and fears were high and no one knew if this was a murder-suicide if there was still an active shooter in the area or if the person or persons had left town as the investigation was taking place it was soon realized that Chris Roden Jr. 16 son of Dana and Chris Sr. was not accounted for Chris jr. better known as little Chris was missing and no one knew where he was everyone was instantly worried sick about him but some feared that this made him an instant suspect a few hours later another 9-1-1 call comes in and he had just found his cousin Kenneth Roden 44 dead from a gunshot wound Kenneth's home was approximately four miles down the road shortly after this call they also found little Chris also a victim of multiple gunshot wounds found dead in his mother's home there were now eight victims in total eight members of one family all massacred in one night the quiet town is now frightened that the killer is on the loose and also that there could be a killer amongst them in their community they were left with no clues no witnesses and no motives so with this I cannot even imagine for one what these families are feeling and going through but the community in itself like it's like you said that they don't know that person could be just lurking around the corner they could be long gone could be your neighbor yeah and the unanswered questions and all of this unfolding in this tiny little town and I mean I get anxiety thinking about it well and then to top it off you got to imagine that that family the Roden family is going through some serious stress and oh totally and shock you've got three survivors all you know under the age of three but why the cutoff with the sixteen-year-old you know he's still a child if they're saving the children so but I'm sure you'll get into that well let's hope so so Hannah Mae Roden had just given birth four days before she was murdered Frankie's son was three and Hannah and Frankie's baby was around six months old what kind of monster can walk past a sleeping toddler and go into two separate rooms in two separate houses and kill the parents with the infant lying in bed with them that is pure evil pure sadistic evil demonic Titan is a small tight-knit community with only about 2,100 people it is located on the western edge of Appalachia 86 miles from Cincinnati it's a peaceful town where everybody knows everybody but yet everyone kind of keeps to themselves Chris Roden senior a true Piedmont native embraced the simple life that his hometown offered his roots are tracked back to his parents who migrated from Kentucky to Piedmont half a century ago when his father passed away in 2008 Chris and his siblings inherited a portion of the family's land creating a bond to their ancestral home while some of his siblings ventured elsewhere Chris senior remained devoted to his hometown in 1994 he married a local girl Dana Manley and they settled down on a piece of land just a stone's throw away from his childhood home this reminds me of me growing up you know I grew up in a very small town you know population was probably pretty close to the same as this and we all of my family a bunch of not all of my family but a bunch of my family all lived like within a quarter of a mile of each other it was the best way to grow up as a child yeah you had a lot of places to go visit as a kid well then you always got to spend time with grandma and grandpa and your aunts and uncles and you know even though my uncles always tortured me they were like big brothers that I never wanted and my aunt and I were close in age and fought so she was kind of like a big sister as well but yeah it was like for me it was like I wish my kids would have had something like that but they don't right it's tough it is so during slower construction periods Chris senior would dabble in buying and selling cars from auctions using his resourcefulness to turn a profit his wife Dana Manley was a nurturing nursing assistant who radiated kindness and love she dedicated herself to her family always ready to lend a helping hand known as the mom and dad to everyone Chris senior and Dana created a warm and welcoming environment for those around them we all had those parents as we're you know teenagers that those favorite parents that y'all called mom and dad and you'd always go there and hang out you didn't care that they were around and yeah minus the marijuana fields after 13 years of marriage the couple grew apart and chose to separate however for the sake of the family they stayed living close to each other Chris senior shared his home with his cousin Gary Roden Chris senior helped Gary overcome drug and alcohol issues Gary was known to be very kind generous and a mama's boy just down the road from Chris seniors brother Kenneth Roden Kenneth was a hard and dedicated worker he left at 4 a.m. every day to commute to his job in Columbus Ohio he lived alone with his pit terrier mix brownie Oh brownie brownie and 4 a.m. that's way too early must have really liked his job I guess Chris senior and Dana had three children the oldest was Clarence Frankie Roden father of Brent Lee Roden age 3 and Ruger Roden Ruger Ruger Roden yes six months Frankie was engaged to Hannah Gilley he was an avid hunter who loved the outdoors he loved to be around his friends but his family was his first priority he was handsome and all the girls from town had a crush on him he was also known to be mischievous the girls may have loved Frankie but Frankie's love was cars Frankie and his brother little Chris loved loved loved the demolition derby they loved that a lot apparently there's like three loves in there little Chris was a freshman in high school and was small in stature but loud and voice and a little bit on the feisty side since the first grade he always talked about wanting to be in the demo derbies he loved the idea of smashing into cars and doing it in front of a cheering crowd little Chris often wore jeans his mud boots and a camo jacket he had a carefree attitude and didn't care what others thought of him the demo derby thing again brings me back to my childhood that was such a huge thing at all the county fairs you would know almost everybody that was participating and their history of winning and it was like making the cars and painting them and it was again good memories sounds exciting so Hannah Mae was the middle sister of Frankie and little Chris she was a senior in the she was a senior in high school she was a spunky sweet outgoing girl she wanted to be a nurse like her mom her kids Sophia Wagner two years old and Kylie Roden five days old were the light of her life they were always her first priority she was an amazing mom luckily the night of the massacres Sophia was with her dad Jake Wagner Jake who began dating Hannah when she was 13 and got her pregnant two years later well 13 years old they started dating they started y'all that is no no no and she got pregnant at 15 oh my gosh this poor girl you know Jake and Hannah's relationship took a complicated turn they became parents at a young age while Jake wanted them to live with his family Hannah resisted leading to an ongoing disagreement through text messages over the course of two years Hannah expressed her concerns about alleged domestic violence and made it clear that she didn't want to be with Jay anymore the couple eventually ended their relationship triggering a fierce custody battle over their daughter Hannah admittedly refused to sign custody papers boldly declaring on Facebook that they would have to kill her first Anna Mae was not the only young mother whose life was cut short on that horrible night Hannah Gillies friends described her as a positive caring person who always put others first she was a stay-at-home mom and her life revolved around her six-month-old son Ruger and her fiance Frankie the police understood the urgency of making an arrest calm the fearful residents of Python however as time passed and hours turned into days the sense of safety seemed to slip away speculations and rumors circulated throughout the town fueled by the relentless media coverage along the rumors was the speculation of a murder-suicide but the theory was quickly debunked as it became evident that everyone had suffered multiple gunshot wounds the community was left grappling with uncertainty and a growing sense of unease the police chief knew he was in over his head and he needed way more resources a call was placed to Mike DeWine's office the Attorney General that came in and took charge of the case it was extraordinary for them for the case was fresh and it was early in the investigation they also received help from BCI the Bureau of Criminal Investigations Ohio's investigative division multiple sheriff's departments along with the assistance of the FBI they had a lot of help yeah they had a lot of different departments going on there again you have this small town that isn't used to having anything of this you know multitude is that the right that's not the right word magnitude see again there goes my uh my brain and mouth not communicating so with all of this help that they had from all these different departments there was all sorts of allegations and rumors and stuff that were you know flowing through town and through the department and so in the documentary that we watched on was it oxygen true crime yeah they were talking about some of the allegations that could have caused somebody to murder these families one of the allegations was that of a road rage incident that Chris senior had been involved in yeah and they kind of you know I think better sound effects to come we'll get it we'll get it so he was involved in this road rage incident but they kind of you know pooh-poohed that they didn't think that somebody getting upset at somebody being cut off would be a reason to massacre an entire family I don't know and would they know where the entire family lived again small town so potentially 21 on repeats right then there was other allegations that little Chris was having some kind of threats against him on Facebook so you got that social media bullying but again would that be a reason to massacre an entire family probably not and I would assume that would probably go the other way if that was the case right right and then there was rumors about them finding cock cages no Nemo was not found in the making of this documentary and Dory still swimming swimming swimming oh so they also there was rumors that they found cock cages from like the cock fight rings and stuff on their property and there's the thought that maybe it could have been a feud of something that happened at the arena that may have spilt over and led to their deaths again probably not so those rumors were all pretty laid to rest pretty quickly and but then they had thought about the love of the demo derbies and the competition and there was a tiff that the rodent boys were in at one of the derbies but again probably not gonna cause a somebody to go on unhinged and massacre eight people can you just never know you don't there's some serious dudes they they are serious they are very serious but I think a lot of times they get their aggression out on by smashing up your car yeah I'm coming for you boom but you got a bigger engine you drove an imperial in their outlaw you got a nice roll cage that's not fair so with all of the tips that were called in and unfortunately I don't think any of them led to any leads yeah I don't think so either but I didn't mean to like take over there continue oh no worries no worries so police investigators strongly believe that the brutal massacre could not have been the work of a single individual the sheer number of victims spread across four different locations suggest the involvement of multiple perpetrators it is their belief that at least three individuals would be required to carry out such a coordinated attack and even then they would need to possess a high level of expertise another theory circulating among the community is that the killings may have been orchestrated by a professional hit man potentially aided by someone familiar with the area the devastating loss of the rodent family has left the community in a state of grief but their mourning is overwhelmed or overshadowed by a pervasive sense of fear in a community where doors were left unlocked without worry residents now find themselves constantly looking over their shoulders securing their homes at night well hell yeah you don't know what if somebody's gonna try busting in but if you remember the first place Chris senior and Gary when the officer when the not the officers but when Bobby Joe the sister-in-law arrived their door was locked that's right so that means somebody would have had to have a key or known where the key was yeah and then after leaving the premises they locked it back up wow I did not even put that together yeah and they don't say anything about the other houses if they were locked or not no but I'm assuming that most of them were not probably cuz yeah I mean that's what they kind of stated from the get-go is that it's a tiny community yeah yeah all right so constantly looking over their shoulders securing the home at night as they hope for a quick arrest began to fade all the town knew was that the family had been killed quickly and swiftly and there were no suspects not a one not a one attorney Mike DeWine makes an announcement makes an announcement that they found marriage a one-on-one do you know what a marriage a one-on-one marriage a one-on-one yeah is that Mary marijuana marijuana Mary Jane Mary Mary yeah I don't know so in three of the four locations where the Roden family was murdered he claimed that it was clearly a girl operation nearly 200 plants were found with a worth of nearly half a million dollars whoa yeah they were doing some good stuff cuz I mean apparently nobody in town seemed to know anything about no I think this was a pretty big yeah revelation yeah nothing indicated that this was occurring at their properties they did not live in $200,000 houses they drove decent cars nothing indicating that they were involved in a huge marijuana operation after this was announced it was believed that the cartel may have been involved in the murders yeah every single one of them lived in a trailer home you know and the one Kenneth he lived in a camper on his property so yeah they weren't living a lavish lifestyle to have this kind of money hidden somewhere on your property yeah kind of crazy yeah I guess they knew how to hide it very well yes so as stated in the accident to crime documentary the family was killed execution style which is up close and point-blank when you get that close to somebody that tells you that the murder was something personal you've done something wrong now you are going to pay there was widespread speculation suggesting the possible involvement of Mexico's notorious Sinaloa cartel in the case known for their extreme violence it seemed like a plausible scenario for them to carry out the murders and escape without leaving any traces especially considering the increasing legalization of marijuana in certain US states with the cartels interest in growing marijuana on American soil rather than smuggling it across the border Ohio status as a drug trafficking corridor and the cartels established connection in the region made it a topic of discussion among investigators and the public alike Pike County Adams County and Skyoto County are known as key trafficking regions due to their strategic locations along US 23 a major transportation route connecting the southern and northern parts of the United States over the past decade the DEA has closely monitored the direct links between the Sinaloa cartel and Ohio particularly their involvement in marijuana cultivation operations law enforcement agencies have uncovered encampments tied to the cartel located just outside of Pike County where these illicit activities were taking place one puzzling aspect of the case is the reason behind the cartels involvement in such a high-profile incident this far north of the border additionally law enforcement has been troubled by the fact that Chris senior and Dana's grandchildren were left unharmed indicating a sense of morality at play speculations arise as the cartels potential role as they are known for their ruthless methods and typically do not spare anyone including babies and children in their operation the question of why they deviated from their usual approach as another layer of mystery to the investigation yeah when it comes to those types of groups or whatever they go in guns a-blazing to ask no questions so I don't think they even see they just kind of blow up the place and they leave so they're not gonna strategically leave these small children alive yeah I mean that's that's the theory I don't know I just you know in my mind I can have a hard time believing that somebody could just walk in and shoot children yeah but you know I guess that's what they do but I don't know it's hard to fathom oh it is very hard to fathom but you know with the cartel and the gangs and the mafia and whoever else the KGB they don't want to have any chance of any witness or anything those groups they just definitely cold yeah I mean I can't I could not fathom yeah I mean that would be a horrible I'd be getting out of the cartel really quick I couldn't handle killing people period so the initial cartel theory has been set aside by the police leaving the townspeople to contemplate the possibility that the answer of the tragic murders lies closer to home statistics show that in most cases victims are killed by somebody they know these murders were deeply intimate and personal suggesting that the perpetrators harbored strong anger and a desire to make the rodent family aware of their actions would not be tolerated the nature of the crimes points towards a personal vendetta against the family leading to the logical assumption that the perpetrator is somebody familiar to them I agree with that 150% because you are going to have to know where these people live who they're related to who's coming and going I mean to plot out a murder of eight people in one evening and to go completely undetected yeah you've got a you've got to know the people you've got to know the area which you know in some degree I'm assuming that the cartel would probably do the research I'm sure but you know it is the fact of the dogs that they mentioned and would they have left the drugs behind yeah that's true too yeah yes I don't know but I don't know much about the cartels I don't either I'm pretty cartel stupid so in the aftermath of the murders the police turned their attention to the rodents family security system although the initial review of the footage yielded no significant findings the presence of the family's watchdogs raised suspicions these loyal companions would have reacted and alerted rodents if unfamiliar individuals had approached the house the absence of any aggressive response from the dogs suggest that perpetrator was most likely someone familiar to the family as they did not perceive them as a threat that was my thought right there right that's what yeah it's just if it was the cartel those dogs have been going nuts right and they avoided all of the video cameras you know the dogs didn't alert I thought there was something that some part of the story where somebody was saying that like the electrical was cut or something that oh maybe enough the cameras I don't know if maybe I'm just remembering that wrong but I we watched so many different things and looked at so many different articles in regards to this there'll be another part that will put a pin in right now but it's coming up that there was many different speculations of something else that had happened with this too which will cover I'm getting ahead of myself here sorry I'll zip it and you continue I'm intrigued okay so Bobby Joe being the first person to arrive at the scene immediately called 911 her presence raised suspicions and she faced a relentless barrage of questions despite the scrutiny Bobby Joe avidly maintained her innocence and denied any acknowledgement of the murders the parents of Bobby Joe James and Dana Judy and Leonard manly shared their frustration over the family member being under investigation in an effort to clear her name Bobby Joe willingly underwent three polygraph tests successfully passing all of them the conclusive results provided investigators with confidence that Bobby Joe had no involvement in the tragic murders now these officers realized that these polygraphs don't really work right well I don't know if they do or not but I mean you know obviously she would have needed help so who would have helped her right but I mean they cleared her which I'm glad they did because she wasn't involved but okay she took a polygraph test she was she's not lying let's let her you know they made her do it three times Wow right so the conclusive results provided investigators with confidence that Bobby Joe had no involvement in the tragic murders investigators guided by statistics revealing that 50% of murders involve someone within the family considered the possibility that the perpetrator could be Bobby Joe or another family member this line of inquiry was driven by the unsettling reality that those closest to us can sometimes betray our trust and that's very true because a lot of times they they first look at the husband or the wife or you know the boyfriend or the girlfriend the immediate family members so yeah I can see that that is usually it's always the husband and it's never a mannequin when you see something in the ditch of the water it's never a mannequin unless you're watching ghost adventures sorry I just remembered that episode that you're watching with a mannequin scared oh my god I would do except for I would have like not touched any of the stairs my feet would have just went like flew over the tops of the stairs and out the damn door there would have been a Tracy size hole in the side of the wall so with the regards to the investigation both Bobby Joe and her brother James were under the watchful eyes of investigators James who had arrived at the scene fell under suspicion law enforcement closely monitored his activities even resorted to placing a tracker on his truck however a few days later while working on his vehicle James stumbled upon the tracker and promptly removed it shortly after the incident investigators eliminated James as a suspect in the case clearing his name from the list of potential suspects months of dedicated police work turned into a year of relentless pursuit despite their unwavering efforts no viable suspects emerged and every lead seemed to reach a dead end false hopes dashed the community of Python faced a grim reality with each passing theory a haunted nightmare loomed over them what if the truth behind the massacre the identity of the one who took eight lives remained forever elusive it was a question that struck fear deep into the hearts of the Python residents leaving them grappling with the unsettling possibility of never finding the answers they desperately sought police at the time were keeping all the information close to the chest they did not share any new information with the public or the news the Attorney General was still confident and again reassured that we will get them the slow progress of the investigation weighs heavily on the extended rodent family Dana's grief-stricken parents Leonard and Judy Manley like other family members Leonard felt a deep frustration as the yearn for justice and the apprehension of those responsible for the heinous crimes without answers the family and the community were left without closure impeding their ability to heal and move forward well yeah I mean there's they should have frustration they're coming you know after their family so again odds you know 50% of the time it's someone that you know or is close to you or whatever but I just I couldn't imagine that hollowness of not knowing yeah it would eat me up one and the fear of knowing that those people that murdered somebody so effortlessly right are still out there and you still have family members left and you know I don't know if they're targets I mean that is just the thought of tomorrow I mean murder and mayhem and all that is horrible but or you know losing a family member to a car accident any kind of death is horrible but could you imagine waking up tomorrow and eight of your close family members are all gone oh yeah and can you even resolve those feelings if you're still in fear of this could still happen right or right you know hearing I mean these poor people I hope somebody got him some medication because if anybody deserves that they do or go fire up that marijuana I would have to believe that a lot of them probably didn't kind of resolve their issues until after right they found that people they recently released autopsy reports provided some detail about the tragic incident although certain information was redacted the reports revealed that each victim had sustained multiple gunshot wounds in various locations Chris senior had the highest number of gunshot wounds indicating that he may have been the initial target of the attack and the others were subsequently targeted additionally signs of physical assault were observed on Chris senior suggesting a more violent confrontation he was shot nine times and was believed to be the main target that's a major aggression there oh yeah major aggression on May 12 2017 a significant development unfolded as law enforcement took decisive action armed with search warrants dozens of state and local agents conducted simultaneous searches on three properties belonging to the influential and affluent Wagner family a prominent name in the region the Wagners held a special status in Piketon similar to royalty their wealth and generosity made them highly regarded in the community unlike many others who faced financial hardships the Wagners remained resilient and prosperous at the heart of the family was 76 year old Frederica the esteemed matriarch with ownership of over 17,000 acres of valuable land worth more than four million dollars Frederica's prized possession was the sprawling 300 acre horse ranch known as the Flying V. Flying W. Flying W yeah their house or their land value must well be not these values would have been probably from 2017 to probably huh I would assume so because that that much acreage I would assume is probably worth even more than that yeah 17,000 acres I would think would be worth way I mean I would think that her $300 acre horse ranch the Flying W alone would be how to be worth four million dollars never seen it I'm not sure but what do you suppose if it looks like some other trailers yeah this is the Wagner family though oh yeah and their royalty they're wealthy and but when you said that that kind of I was like that caused a pause for me because that's a lot of acres a lot of acres oh my god so devoted to her faith Frederica was a pillar of the local church and known it for her generous assistance to families in need she was a pillar of the community pillar of the community her warm nature endeared her children who adored her with numerous rental properties under her name many tenants were also members of her church every Sunday and Thursday she opened her doors to host dinners for children who often went without sufficient food due to their low income circumstances so she was one of those that ever the kids all adored she was you know very very into the church and I mean it seems like she's tried to always do good yeah generally a good person right and she liked her marijuana no that was the the other family where's the flowchart no the rodents were the ones the ones that were killed well maybe the Wagners got some I'm sure they've got 17,000 acres I'm sure they got pot grown somewhere yeah probably just out in the fields out there so Frederica's son George Billy Wagner the third better known as Billy was recognized for his straightforward nature and strong work ethic assuring that his family's well-being Angela Wagner his dedicated wife was always there for their children offering unwavering support the other port together Billy and Angela had two kids George Wagner the fourth and Edward Jake Wagner known better as Jake there were rumors of a connection between Billy and Chris senior suggesting some business dealings between them but nothing substantial or incriminating the more significant tie lies between their children Jake Wagner and Hannah Mae Rodin were in a serious relationship and shared a child together Sophia who was nearly three years old when the tragic events occurred although they eventually separated the presence of his connection and the shady business dealings arise suspicion however despite the searches no arrests were made in relation to the circumstances law enforcement was laser focused on the Wagner family however they were not considered suspects or persons of interest at that time so that statement confuses me and I remember hearing it in the documentary they're laser focused on them but they don't consider them suspects or persons of interest is that to try to make them feel like they're they're safe they're hoping they say mess up somehow maybe it was just a quiet thing you know maybe they were looking into him but they didn't want to drop any like in Saddam okay that's the only thing I can think that shortly after the anniversary of the murders the Wagner family made a significant decision to relocate to Alaska which raised concern among many community members the move drew attention to the Wagners sought to downplay in a local news publication they claimed that the decision had been made prior to the searches as part of their plans Billy and Angela sold their 41 acre farm and embarked on a journey of over 4,000 miles to settle in Kenya Alaska approximately a year later the Wagner family made the decision to return to Piketon perhaps they believed that enough time had passed and it was safe to come back however the return coincided with an intensification of the investigation after two years of searching for answers the community's prayers were finally answered and a new development unfolded the heat was turned up and the pursuit of justice gained momentum simultaneously law enforcement takes decisive action by executing multiple arrest warrants Billy Wagner Angela Wagner George jr. and Jake Wagner were all apprehended sending shockwaves through the community however while the arrest brings a sense of closure to some others are left perplexed by the involvement of the Wagner family the town finds itself divided with some firmly believing their guilt while others struggle to reconcile their image with such heinous crimes the pursuit of truth continues amidst a community grappling with conflicting opinions the murders were well thought out well planned and well executed they plotted stocked and documented every move this family made for a long time it is said that they allegedly used lawnmower parks to create silencers the oil filters specifically they tried using mag light flashlights but they did not work yeah also allegedly went to Walmart and bought specific shoes that they used during the murders prevent DNA transfer they also purchased gun ammunition gun magazines phone jammers and a brass catcher the brass catcher is a device that you attach to a firearm to catch the shell casings so I never realized that you could make a homemade silencer and the ingenuity of this family of you know trying these different things and that's what I was talking about earlier there was speculation that they used the mag lights there was speculation that they used other things as the silencer but in Jake's testimony in court he said that it was the oil filter from the lawnmowers that finally worked right yeah and I've heard that before in like movies and stuff where people create their motor then that's just crazy and then I'd never heard of brass catchers before either I've heard of that but and why don't we have these so when we go to the range we don't have to bend over and pick up I think the odd thing that I didn't catch until now is the notion of phone jams yes I mean you can just pick those up at Walmart I don't know where they got it but it was pretty smart on their part because then nobody can call or help yeah and that's scary smart scary smart and to know that there's something out there like that that if somebody is going to go and do something heinous it can have one of those to jam the signals of all the phones and within a certain distance hello we need to figure out a way to counteract those things yeah so two more people were brought into custody and the initial four were arrested Frederica Wagner Billy's mother and Rita Newcomb Angela's mother Frederica allegedly allegedly lied to the grand jury and Rita allegedly forged custody documents for Sophia between Hannah Mae and Jake these documents were created three weeks prior to the massacre all right people I think we're officially done adding any more characters into this are you sure I can't like 20 more I can't be certain but I'm pretty sure we're coming to the end of adding people and we will we will have the flowchart and I think that's probably why it took the cops so long and why they took the focus off of the Wagners for a little bit cuz dude they had to create a flowchart yeah and I don't know if they took their focus off they just didn't know any I'm being a smartass now they didn't have enough information no they certainly didn't but in 2015 Hannah Mae made the difficult decision to end a relationship with Jake Wagner leading to her being granted full custody of Sophia the Wagner family however fought against the decision seeking to overturn the custody arrangement and obtained full custody themselves during this time Hannah Mae briefly dated Charlie Gilley and became pregnant with his child tragically just five days after giving birth Hannah Mae is brutally murdered investigators suspect that the motive behind the massacre was not solely directed at Hannah Mae but rather aimed at eliminating any potential challenges to Jake's custody rights and preventing any further custody disputes by eliminating everybody involved they sought to ensure that there would be no retaliation and that Jake would retain custody of Sophia without contest six days after the massacre Jake filed for full custody of Sophia and it was granted in 2016 but with Jake now being arrested Sophia's custody is in limbo her mother was killed and her dad's in jail her maternal grandparents were killed and her parental grandparents were also arrested two uncles were killed and the others in jail as well the child potentially does not have anybody right now Sophia's current location is a secret for her protection and the protection of the people who are caring for her so I just looked up I was curious I was gonna look this up earlier and I forgot so Charlie Gilley was the father of Hannah Mae's five-day-old baby and Hannah Gilley who was Frankie's fiance yeah I wanted to see if they were related are there yes Charlie is Hannah Gilley's brother so again that loops those that Gilley family in even more to this whole yeah again small town yeah yeah and the one thing with our previous episode with the Murdock case again you know it was a while that I wrote that story and then after reading it I remembered that all the different Smith's in that case oh yeah you know you get Stephen Smith the young kid and then you have Edward Smith which is Alex's drug dealer okay and then you have I think it's Gloria Smith was it I was gonna say was the housekeepers yeah the housekeeper are not the housekeeper for it's the caretaker for oh that's right his mom yes yeah her name is also Smith but definitely none of those three Smith's are related we need a flowchart for that episode almost do yeah yeah the Wagners all waived their rights to a speedy trial in June of 2019 all charges were dismissed against Frederica Wagner April 22nd 2021 now 28 year old Jake Wagner pleaded guilty to 23 charges related to the rodent family massacre Jake is expected to testify against his mother father and brother during their trials Angela Wagner pled guilty in 2012 and was sentenced to 30 years for her involvement in December of 2022 George Wagner jr. was sentenced to life without parole he was charged with 22 charges 8 charges of aggravated murder and 14 related burglary charges as March 1st 2023 Billy Wagner has still not had his trial so I also wanted to read the testimonies of Tabitha Claytor George jr.'s ex-wife and Elizabeth Armour wait is she on the flowchart oh no I lied there's two more people that were adding I lied sorry people so there's two more people there's Tabitha Claytor she was George jr.'s ex-wife and Elizabeth Armour is Jake Wagner's ex-wife so we're going to start off with Tabitha the ex-wife of George Wagner the fourth took the stand Monday to describe her life living with the family including that of her former mother-in-law how she dictated their sex life and accused her of stealing and abusing her son so the mother-in-law is dictating their sex life that doesn't sound like anything that I would ever put up with no if you're married your sex life is personal bitch get your nose out of it well you know and I think what was she like 13 or something she was let's say we're gonna get to that so we'll get to that here in a second but the one thing that I do want to go back to before we go forward with this is Angela if you look at her mug shot and we'll have these pictures out on the blog as well she is smirking yeah she smirks through the whole court case I think yeah she just I think she has that holier than thou I am NOT gonna be you know I think she finds it funny I wonder if she's still smiling now probably not she's been convicted now granted she got the lesser of all the sentences she only got 30 years but that's pretty much a life sentence for her yeah and I know they pled she pled so that they wouldn't get the death penalty but this woman just tries to control all aspects of the life of these other poor women that are getting involved with these sadistic sons so anyway we'll get back to this here Tabitha she's also known as Tabby when she first dated George she was 12 years old and I believe he was 16 if I remember correctly so she was probably 15 it might 15 16 somewhere in there and but yeah so she was like a sixth grader when she first dated him she dated him for approximately a year they broke up but then rekindled their relationship when she was 18 so actually she's legal now but she rekindled the relationship with him after Hannah Mae had contacted her on Facebook and asked her to date George again Hannah Mae was dating Wagner's younger brother Jake Wagner at the time he pleaded guilty last year and admitted that he and his family murdered the eight members of the rodent and ghillie families so that they could have sole custody of his daughter that he shared with Hannah Mae Sofia his mother Angela Wagner has also pled guilty to her role in the conspiracy and agreed to testify against George and his father Billy Wagner so all the families turning on each other they're all testifying against each other trying to get out of this so Tabby kind of gives us a little glimpse of what life was like in the Wagner home Tabby testifies that she and George jr. married in 2012 and she had their son wait for it Bovine who names their child after a I mean to me that is a total cattle name sorry it may be a popular name near the Appalachia but in Minnesota Bovine would be probably a bull's name yeah yeah so they had their son Bovine eight months after they got married in 2013 at the time Tabby said that she lived with George Jake and their parents Billy and Angela Wagner at the home on Bethel Hill Road near the sprawling Flying W horse farm owned by Billy Wagner's parents Bob Wagner and Frederica Wagner Tabby said that she met the Wagners because her mother worked for Frederica at a group home that she had owned Tabby recalled that her mother and her sister were only permitted to visit her at that home once so again Angela controlling her life Tabby said that they didn't like her family Tabby also recalled discussions Angela Wagner had with her and George at the kitchen table and in their bedroom in which Angela Wagner was quoted telling them you wasn't allowed to give blowjobs or you'd go to hell you wasn't you wasn't oh boy so first off why are you talking about sex with these grown-ass adults and why are you putting stipulations on that and she also said that sex was for the purpose of having children only sorry I'm no and why does royalty talk like trailer trash right I mean you should not have any control over their life period they're adults pretty weird but again they were very very young and I think you know that's how well at this time she was got away with that yeah well this time they were 19 she was 19 and George had to been in his 20s but I guess if you're living under mom's roof Wow hell to the no so then Tabby also said that when she gave birth to bovine George and Angela were at the hospital with her and Angela actually spent the night Tabby said that she wanted her mother to spend the night with her at the hospital but her mother didn't even get to meet her son until he was a year and a half old so after their son was born Tabby said she wanted him to sleep with her in his crib next to her bed but Angela said no no no the boys gonna sleep with her and Billy no no no I mean what the hell woman Angela's house Angela's rules and all I have to say is Angela you are one crazy thundercunt of a bitch Tabby said when she was asked about who made the decisions in the home she said George went along with his mother's decisions so whatever mama wants mama gets mama gets she also described an isolated incident at the Bethel Hill Road property where she said the Wagoners planned to burn the house down and collect a $250,000 insurance policy she recalled helping the family move furniture photos and other belongings out of the house so they wouldn't be destroyed by the fire and Angela was buying mama's like a bag of mixed nuts you never know what you're gonna get definitely so Angela also bought a receipt book that they filled out to submit to the insurance company so earlier you had discussed something in regards to how this family always survived any economic recessions and stuff they just burned down a house collect the insurance problem solved I Angela burnt down house on 6-2 well they did say they were pillars of the community and you know what they say about pillars they always turn to killers I've never heard that before no the pillars are the killers the pillars are the killers Tabby also told the jurors that she and Angela Wagner went out one day to buy decorations to celebrate Bovine's first month and upon returning from the store I wonder if they got any moo juice she quoted Angela Wagner saying she recalled Angela saying quote oh I hope that's not ours after seeing a trail of smoke Tabby said the Wagners started the fire using an overflowing pan of grease and a propane stove is Angela's laughing here comes the money Tabby also said the Wagners used the money to buy another home on Peterson Road of course they wanted to upgrade she lived there with the Wagners and Hannah Mae Roden the witness said or the witness being Tabby said that she and Hannah Mae didn't get along very well because they were always competing for Angela's approval why I have no idea why would anybody want that woman's approval no Tabby is scheduled to return to the stand Tuesday morning she's expected to testify on how she escaped from the Wagner home in fear for her life and was forced to sign over custody of her son to George jr. her testimony is important to the state because the prosecutors say the custody of Jake Wagner and Hannah Mae Roden's daughter was the motive for the 2016 murders so Waverly Ohio WKRC says the ex-wife of George Wagner the fourth testified Tuesday about fleeing the Wagner household two years into their marriage after a fight erupted between her and George and his mother Angela Wagner it was the second day of testimony for Tabby Claytor who married Wagner in 2012 and he was on trial for murder for his alleged role in the April 2016 killings of the eight members of the Roden and Gillies families so kind of just recaps a little bit of what we talked about at the beginning in the first testimony and so Tabby tells the court about how after she had bovine she was soon on lockdown at the house with little access to outside and her phone was taken away then in November 2014 she testified that things exploded mama took my phone away she took everything away from them mama bitch I believe she actually also like asked for all of their passwords and bank information all of that you know that's the other thing I mean I think a normal person would have told her to go to hell this girl might have not have been mature enough right to confront this lady and you know that's how this all took place right I'd have kicked her in her balls oh definitely kick her in her big hairy balls and her thundercunt the night she ran away Tabby said that the fight began because she didn't clean up the kitchen as instructed because she was trying to get her son to take a nap that led to a shouting match with Angela and then George jumped in he came in and he started smacking me with a belt she testified she should have forked mama Tabby later said that it started as horseplay during cross-examination but then she said it got more serious later in the testimony how does hitting anyone with a belt start as horseplay I mean this isn't in their bedroom so it's not a kink thing this is in the kitchen in front of his mom I think George had to protect mama yes which again oh she said George eventually slapped her in the face and blocked her from leaving the house at that point I love this this is a quote from her I bit him and tried to rip his nuts off yeah girl get it rip that ball sack get out anyway you can kick it bite it pull it rip it just get out she says the fight moved outside the home that evening and as she was able to get past George she said that George told her to stop screaming or he would slap her she said she screamed louder and then that George hit her and then he followed by saying you just signed your divorce you just signed your divorce papers boy yes sorry Tabby said that you just signed your divorce papers not George and I told him that I was not going to go back inside and I was running so Angela then threw a board at her and told George that she was going to go inside and get a gun the board that was thrown was a 2x4 piece of wood whatever size that's gonna hurt yeah at that point Tabby said that she ran into the woods and later hid under a truck while the family searched for her with flashlights after dark Tabby rode a bicycle to a nearby gas station got her mother to pick her up but she said that George and his younger brother Jake Wagner intercepted her telling her to come home I mean hell no you're out leave yeah when she arrived at the gas station she called her mother using the cashier's cell phone but then Wagner's were also there with the police they had filed a domestic disturbance complaint against her accusing her of dragging her son across the floor you manipulative pieces of shit on cross-examination the defense got Tabby to say a reason for her lockdown was because she was unfaithful to George and she couldn't remain faithful she also testified she didn't ever know that she pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of disorderly conduct even though the defense lawyer Nash produced a document indicating that she paid a $214 fine this poor woman has just been brainwashed by this family I mean she admits because she couldn't be faithful that's why she had to be locked down no that's what they tell her I mean she and then she probably didn't know about this fine the family probably paid it to make it go away probably Tabby then says that George gave her money for the fine but that she didn't know she was pleading guilty to anything Hannah May one of the victims of the shooting also lived at the Wagner's home at the time as she was dating Jake and had a daughter with him prosecutors alleged that the daughter Sophia is at the center of the dispute that led to the 2016 shootings Tabby said that Hannah May was there the night when Tabby ran away and present later with the rest of the family at the gas station Tuesday afternoon prosecutors went over several Facebook messages between the two women after Hannah May had moved out of the Wagner home the two women wrote about their time at the Wagner's and their struggles to get custody of their children so now we're gonna move on to Jake's ex-wife and Jake had met this girl when they were living in Alaska she was a very sure her family was Mennonite do you know what a Mennonite is yeah so basically it's kind of like Amish but yeah they have power and they drive vehicles and but they still have a lot of the same beliefs no sex before marriage and you know very religious so the ex-wife of Jake Wagner testified to being terrified of the Wagner family and was looking to get away from them after Jake made dire threats against her and her family the dramatic testimony came at the end of week six of testimonies in the murder trial of Jake's older brother George Wagner the fourth for his alleged part in the April 2016 killings of eight members of the Rodan and Gilly families Elizabeth Armour met the Wagners in 2017 at church in Alaska shortly after the family moved there that led to a whirlwind whoo I have a hard time with that whirlwind romance with Jake Wagner and they married in March 2018 shortly before the Wagners moved back to Ohio I hadn't this is a quote by Elizabeth I hadn't dated anybody and didn't have any experience with men so I had requested in no uncertain terms that we were not to consummate our marriage on that night which Jake had agreed to but did not honor said Armour Armour said almost immediately after she and Jake consummated their marriage against her wishes Jake asked her for all of her personal information he wanted her bank account access numbers her social security number her phone passcode and everything else they could think to get from her she said Jake had also synced her phone with his so he could see what she was doing at all times made her cut off contact with her family and Angela Wagner made her sign a contract saying in the event of a divorce she wouldn't try to get custody of Jake's daughter Sophia whom he had with the murder victim Hannah Mae Rodin so again wackadoodle I mean this girl doesn't have any legal rights to this child to begin with I mean she's not adopting her so I mean this Angela is so afraid of losing this child that I mean she's already doctored the custody paperwork which her mother was charged with and now she's having her sign you know a contract and she's not going to go after Sophia I don't understand why she didn't leave the second that he asked for her bank account access or when he raped her oh yeah yeah I don't know the above all of the above this family just I don't know they have this ability to brainwash and get people under their thumbs young yes young and naive they go for the naive ones somebody who grows up in that Mennonite or Amish community they don't know what the real world's like they have they have a beautiful world where they are the real world is an evil place so at the time Jake Wagner denied to the Armour family that he was involved in the Pike County massacre the then mother Angela accused Armour Elizabeth of sexually assaulting Jake's daughter Sophia Elizabeth testified Jake took her side but issued this warning that if it were indeed true he laid it out to me very clearly that if I had done it the right thing to do would be to create Lucille the baseball bat from the television show The Walking Dead and string me up in the barn and beat me to death with that baseball bat bulldoze the barn burn it down hunt down and kill my family and that if he didn't do it his mom would do it if his mom didn't do it his brother George would do it or Billy I mean first off I don't know if any of you watched The Walking Dead but I've watched it all the way through twice and the second time I had to skip the episode where Lucille comes into play cuz that was horrific yeah they went way too gory with it and I still have nightmares just I mean oh the eyes popping yes yes the too much too much I'm getting the chills the goose bumps just talking about it but I'm sorry again wrong girl so he just said that any of them would be willing to do it because it would be the right thing to do and it wouldn't be the first step no sadistic bastards Elizabeth also testified that Jake threatened to kill her family if they ever tried to attempt to visit her in Ohio those threats led Elizabeth starting her plans to escape she told the story of how she left she changed her clothes in a Walmart bathroom and slid out a back door where her father awaited for her in a rental car so this poor girl you know changes her clothes to not be able to be quickly identified by them sneaks out a back door and her father's so worried that he gets a rental car to come and save her the things that that family just fucks with people so the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation had agents there and they also followed her once she got away with her father once she determined she was safe they discontinued following her she and her father took back roads to make sure they weren't followed and they changed cars later and then she went to Virginia to live with a friend Elizabeth said that she believed the Wagners and even people in Alaska who said that the family didn't have anything to do with the murders but then she testified that the family was incredibly controlling and constantly worried about the state investigation Elizabeth even said George and Jake would plot against law enforcement lead BCI agent Schreider and then Attorney General Mike DeWine they also plotted how they would escape prison if anyone were ever convicted they were loudly discussing creating some kind of electric weapon that they would use to harm Mark DeWine and various other law enforcement people they were annoyed by Armour said there was discussion about creating a bulletproof of bulldozer which could be driven through the walls of the enclosure such as a prison in which to break people out of jail boy these people just don't stop a bulletproof bulldozer an electrical weapon Wowzers MacGyvers so with Elizabeth's testimony this was the closest the prosecution had gotten to tying George to what the rest of the family was doing during the pretrial hearings the prosecution detailed how they helped protect Elizabeth even helping her by changing her social security number so basically now this woman is living in protective custody I mean they changed her social security number and everything she denied to be interviewed by defense lawyers before the trial telling the defense lawyer John Parker I'm terrified of the Wagners so that is the end of their testimonies and we've got one that still hasn't been charged yet and this happened in 2016 yeah and we're at 2023 I mean I know part of it was due to kovat right and they waived their rights to a speedy trial and I know they had to do each trial one by one you know but Wow this story was quite the roller coaster crazy low chart to follow yeah you need a flowchart you need a very good flow yeah once you put those faces to the names that it makes a lot of sense but we tried to kind of give each person you know a description and bring their personality and to play with it and to help it resonate and I wanted to make sure that we you know touch base on all the victims because most of the time this story is mostly told about the Wagner side of it but I wanted the rodent and ghillie side you know we wanted the rodent and ghillie side to really be reflected in the story and but that's all we have for you today folks it's gonna be just a one-story episode yeah it was a long long one so we need to wrap her up all right well until next time we love you thanks for hanging out with us here at Total Conundrum please make sure to check out our website and blog at TotalConundrum.com for news upcoming events merch bloopers and additional hysteria you never know what will pop up so be sure to follow along if you want to show your support for Total Conundrum and gain access to all of our bonus content please visit our patreon page you can also follow us on Facebook Instagram and Twitter the links are available in our show notes if you have any questions comments recommendations or stories to share please email us at contact at TotalConundrum.com episodes are available on Apple podcast Google podcast stitcher Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts if you like the show please rate review and subscribe on Apple podcasts we appreciate the love keep on creepin on mother fuckers you