A special episode, with Matt Sherratt

Cardiff Central Podcast had a special guest, Matt Sheff, the Head Coach of Cardiff Rugby. They discussed the retirements of Ellis and Josh and their contributions to the team. Matt also talked about his transition to head coach and how he has focused on his strengths in coaching. They mentioned Richie Reece leaving and the need for another attack coach. Matt emphasized the importance of individual development and having the best coaching staff to attract young Welsh players. They also discussed the recent loss to Munster and how the team is preparing for their upcoming game against Edinburgh. Welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast. Hello and welcome to a very special edition of the Cardiff Central Podcast. As ever, I'm Harley. I'm joined, as usual, by Carmen and Dan. I would ask how you're doing, but I'm too excited to introduce our very special guest. It is a man known as Jockey, Head Coach of Cardiff Rugby, Matt Sheff. How are you doing, Matt? Very well, thank you. Good to see you all. Yeah, great to have you on, mate. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you. All right, so just to sort of jump straight into sort of the list of questions we've got in. So first of all, we've had two very key retirements over the last week or so. So could you just give a couple of words of summary of what Ellis and Josh have meant, you know, being around the environment and what you thought of them in your time being at Cardiff? Yeah, obviously, I've had two stints at Cardiff. So obviously, first one with Danny, I think 2015 to 2018. And then obviously, this last one for the last three years. And two players that played a massive part in my career, really. Obviously, really enjoyed my first spell there. And they were two senior players. Then, probably in a little bit of a different role, they were more still key players. Ellis was obviously captain. But obviously, really had the likes of Mellon and Gareth Anticombe and Sam Woolverton and Matthew Rees and a few more who were the probably elder stakesmen, I would say at that time. And they were brilliant, great players for the club and great people to work with. And then probably in this spell, I've seen them both be good players, but also probably play a little bit of a different role in the squad as well with mentoring some of the younger players. And if I'm honest as well, obviously, it's my first stint as a head coach. They've been good for me as well. They've been really supportive, give good advice and just all-round good Cardiff players and Welsh rugby players, really. On Ellis, I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago and I think he said early on in the season that he was thinking this was his last one and told his cells or something along those lines, or hinted it might be. Were there any temptations to try and coax him out of it and change his mind? Because he's played really well this season, especially. He's way too expensive. No, not really. I think it was actually interesting, really. I think, they don't mind me saying, but Josh, I think, really wrestled with retirement. He was obviously really keen to get through the season. He had a tough injury to get past and I think his wrestle with retirement almost summarised his career. He's a pretty resilient person, Josh Turnbull, and he fought to the very end. He fought to get back on the pitch and what a great occasion it was to see him running out with his kids and his wife at the Arms Park. I think after that game, he probably had put so much effort and emotional effort into getting there. I think after that, he'd kind of come to terms with retiring, but it took him a little while. I remember Ellis just on the side of the pitch, casually after we finished training, come up to me and said, and I really appreciate this actually from Ellis as well, he said, just so you don't have to make any tough decisions at the end of the season, I just want to let you know I'm going to retire. For him to do that, I know it doesn't seem a lot, but for me as a first year head coach, for him to tell me early and take that decision away epitomises what he's about. Firstly, he thought about what it would be like for me having to make that decision, but secondly, it gave us real clarity on what we needed to try and bring in as well. I know it's only a little story, but I think that epitomises Ellis as well. Probably to say as well, he seems very comfortable with Ellis as well. I think he's obviously got Sophie and his little boy Jack and I think he wants to be fit and healthy and not hobbling around in the garden playing football with Jack. I still think he wants to give Jack a decent game, but looking at him, I think Jack's slightly better than him already and he's about 18 months. Matt, you touched on it there with how Ellis and Josh have helped with your transition. What's it been like stepping up as head coach? We've had coaches in the past talk about how they're frustrated with more meeting room time than paddock time. Is that something you've struggled with or what has been the main thing to take away from stepping up? Not really. I've been coaching professionally since 2003, so I've been in the game for 21 seasons. This is my 13th year as a senior coach, so I've been really fortunate to work with some good head coaches like Andy Robinson, Sean Holley, Danny Wilson, Rob Howley, Sean Edwards. I think I've seen enough coaches and I've got enough of a support network to get good advice. I've made sure to answer that question that I've kept on the field. My strength is probably meeting rooms and with the players, that is, and on the pitch. I've made sure I've coached the attack and the back to season and led the tactical stuff because that's what I love doing and that's my strength really. I said on Monday, I'd come onto the pitch Monday and I'd had a few meetings Monday morning and I almost, when I step onto the pitch, I feel I get my energy back. So I've just made sure that I've kept doing that and Danny Wilson actually gave me that advice. He's like, it's your technical ability as a coach that gets you a head coach's job. Don't forget that, make sure you keep doing it, otherwise you lose your unique selling point, if you like. It sort of follows on to the next combined two, so obviously we've had the news that Richie Reece will be leaving the club after what seems like forever to take up an exciting opportunity at Haverdashers. Does that mean you're going to lean more into taking over the attack or are there plans to get another attack coach in to help out? Yeah, we'll get another attack coach in to help out. So obviously, Richie's done our skills programme and some of our line out and scrum attack. I've obviously still done all our phase attack and counter attack and close line attack, so that's probably the main body of the attack I've kept. I'm really keen on having a coach in and Richie's been excellent at it. Someone who can take a little bit of the load off me with a set piece of task, but also you can see from the make-up of our squad, we've got a young squad really, so having someone in the coaching team who can just focus on individual development as well, so someone who can stay out and kick with Ellis Bevan and practice high ball with Jacob Beetham and can win it and make sure that Mason's working on his defensive reads and things like that. That stuff can kind of get missed if you're just looking at the big picture, which is, I still enjoy that stuff, but I think it's really important as a club, I'll be honest. I want us to have the best coaching staff firstly to start with in Wales, so I want us to have the best programme in Wales where if there's a young Welsh player who wants to come back into Wales, they look at our coaching staff and look at our environment and think, this is where I'm going to develop. I think having that coach who can just have that microscopic view on individuals is really important. I'm pleased for Richie because he's going into a really good job and he's been brilliant for the club, but we will try and get someone in who's going to help as well. You mentioned talking about the coaching staff, is that what you've sold to the likes of Steffan Manuel, Tom Bowen, Sheedy to a lesser extent, perhaps, about their development and their future as well at the club? Yeah, if I'm honest, that's my background as well. I started coaching as a community rugby coach in 2003, I think it was. I coached a local team in Gloucester under-15s and I've coached tag rugby, I've coached disability rugby, I've coached schools, so my background has been development. I love watching the young kids come through, it's been a breath of fresh air. The likes of Tom Bowen and Steffan, it's easy to talk about it, that's the only thing, it's just making sure. I think we've proved this season. Obviously, I'll still be there next year. Gethin signed a full-time contract, Cornelius coming in from London Irish, Neil In, he's a top coach, and we'll get another in as well to look at the skills and attacking side of the game. It's important when players come in, we can improve them and that's the same with Callum Sheedy. Whether it's Steffan Manuel or Callum Sheedy, I need to be able to say to Sheedy, you've played in a premiership for 10 years, but we can improve this part of your game. Probably what I've learned from coaching top-end players like Utobis, Josh Adams, Gareth Anticombs, Alan Wyn Jones, they still want to get better, that's why they're the best players. I know it's tough sometimes as a supporter, but that's probably going back to our narrative of we need to win off the field first, we need to have good facilities, good coaches, and we may have to be a little bit more patient with the on-the-field stuff. Moving on to the on-the-field stuff, looking back to Friday night, it's probably a bit of the same old story from Munster and Glasgow. We've played really well, but we've not quite come away with a victory. What were the boys like on Monday morning? How did you pick them up, looking ahead to Edinburgh and quite a big game last week at the Arms Park? I'll probably take you straight off the game. I'll be honest with you, it was quite an emotional loss, that one. I've been through one loss like it before, which was worse than that one, if I'm honest. I was coaching Bristol when they lost to Worcester in the Championship play-off final. We were 13 points up with seven minutes to go. Dwayne Peel got yellow-carded, which I'd never forgiven him for. Hannah Samoan international, Jack Lamb, got yellow-carded and we lost the last kick of the game. I can remember almost lying on the pitch at sixth way, thinking it can't go much lower than this. It hasn't yet, but I'll be honest with you, Ulster was pretty tough to take emotionally, not from a personal perspective. I see what the players put in, in the week. They're in a really good place, genuinely as a team. There's a good bond there, there's a good feel in the group. I thought they put so much effort into that game and we actually played really well as well. It was a pretty cruel way to lose at the end. It was one of those, it was why sports are good. We went from winning by eight points to a TML review to losing by two. I kind of come on the pitch after and it's difficult to know what to say at those times because there's a fair few emotions running. The first words I said was, listen, I'm not going to talk too much because we're emotional, but it's our last game at the Arms Park on Saturday. There's some players in this circle who are going to be playing their last game and the feeling we've got now, we need to put all that emotion into Edinburgh. Then we had a couple of beers as a group, because I think it's probably not the answer my wife thinks is the best answer, but it's the answer that I find the best. We stuck together, had a couple of beers in the bar, then Sunday off. I like to look forward on a Monday really. I don't want the players coming in Monday and dreading a review, so we send our reviewers out on a Sunday night on video. We'll ask them a few questions about it Monday, but I think it's important to be, look what's happened has happened. Let's look forward to beating Edinburgh. I know they've been great. They've trained really well the last few days, so they seem in a pretty positive space. Coming into that review process, I'm not going to ask you about individual refereeing decisions, but just overall, do you mind explaining that process of how you have those conversations with individual referees or maybe referee bodies about clarity around decisions and how you go about that as a club or as a region? Yeah, I'll have to be careful what I say here. I'd like to learn it as well if I could. There's actually a really good process for it. We get a chance to respond by two o'clock on the Tuesday after the game, so we can put clips to the referees' advisors who are obviously employed by the URC and any kind of queries you've got, you can ask for clarification and yeah, they're pretty good on coming back on that. This one, I sent a voiceover video on Monday. I tried to be as calm and process-driven as I could on it because, listen, it's a tough job as well, refereeing, so I wouldn't want to do it. It's a pretty tough job, so we just ask for some clarification and then we get that clarification back off the URC, so the process is pretty good, but ultimately, whatever the process is, it doesn't change the result. So again, probably going back to your first question, my time's better spent on the pitch rather than worrying too much about something that's happened 48 hours ago, because what are they going to say? They're either going to disagree with me or they're going to say, yeah, I agree with you, but they're not going to turn the clock back and we replay the situation, so it's useful because you get their thoughts on things, but from experience, it can drain a lot of your time and energy for something you're not going to really get anything from. I'm enjoying the image of you going full Razzy Erasmus, bringing out the sort of yellow circles and getting stuck in. Well, I did actually think about that. I thought I might send it to a couple of people, see what they think, and then I thought I'd better not because it'll end up on Twitter or something. Just one last thing from Friday. Is there any update on Tlupi Faleta? We saw him go off holding his arm slash shoulder as he came in, so I've heard a look at it yet. No, so he had it scanned on Sunday, but then we're waiting on it. He basically had a CT scan that goes a little bit more in depth on the shoulder, so we're waiting for that before there's an absolute certain diagnosis on it. I'll be honest, probably the initial reaction with the pain he's in, it doesn't look like it's just a minor injury, but fingers crossed when the scan comes back, it's not going to be too serious either because he's obviously worked really hard since the World Cup to come back. He's had a couple of knockbacks with his calf, and I think I said in press last week how good was he for 25 minutes again as well. He's had nine months away and he's purring around the field and he's a hell of a player. Just really disappointed for Tobes, really. He's a resilient bloke as well and he loves playing rugby still, so that certainly won't be the last we see of Tobe. He'll be back in a blue and black shirt before long. Just to confirm, it's his shoulder, he's not re-broken the arm, because I think that's what the concern was. No, it's a shoulder impact. One of those really unfortunate ones, really. More on the positive side of the injury front, how good was Theo Cabango's full return after quite a few injury setbacks? He's a hat-trick. Ghost hat-trick you mean? Yes. He's brilliant, isn't he? He's one of those players and in my mind this is what I feel like when I play touch rugby occasionally, but sadly the exact opposite is every time he gets a ball he makes the crowd stand up, doesn't he? Even if he's in the smallest of space, you know that you can't take your eyes off the pitch because in five or six seconds time he can be under the post. I think with Theo, a major attribute of Theo, he's a pretty relaxed character, Theo. He doesn't worry too much, he just goes out on the pitch and does his thing really and I think you can see that in how he plays. He's a very positive player, isn't he? Yes, I love watching Theo play, I thought he was really dangerous at the weekend. We're spoilt on the wings, really. You've got Josh, Mason, Theo, we've got Gabe waiting in the wings, Laney, Aled. We've got some exciting players here. Yes, it's really exciting and a lot of them are young talents as well coming through. With a lot of young players, often it's said that teams are going to be inconsistent, isn't it? Because they're going to be on top of the world one week and then they're going to be learning lessons the next week. What have you made of the consistency levels of the side this season? From the outset, it seems quite remarkable, really. Yes, we've been fairly consistent, I think. I don't think the ultimate for a coach is that everything works at once. You're at your best physically, your defence is purring, your attack's got really good rhythm, your kick in game is accurate, but very rarely does that happen. It's usually one area of the game will outweigh another. Sometimes if you have a not so good day in defence, but you take a couple of first phase tries and your attack's good, it kind of makes up for it. Sometimes your attack and defence can be a six out of ten, but your kick in game's a nine out of ten or your scrum gets you out of it. What I've been pleased about is the basics of our game have been pretty good. It's not anything fancy. Your basics are really your effort levels and your passing, your contact area, your defence. The things that you can be really solid at and it keeps you in a game, I've been pretty pleased with that on the whole. Our effort levels each week, I'll be honest with you, probably after six or seven weeks I was thinking, can the team keep this up? And they've surprised me with that. It's not really dropped off. I've not ever sat in the stand watching a game thinking we look like we've given up here or we're slightly off effort wise. They've been pretty good for that. I think that's the biggest positive for me to take away is that I wanted two things, and I know it's a broken record for some, but I'm not going to get bored of saying it, is I wanted us, if there were two things that we could have is you guys watching the stand and can see that there's pride in the shirt in the city. That's got to be an absolute non-negotiable and I want people to turn up and enjoy watching how Cardiff play. So I want us to be a positive team. If a player sees space and he wants to go for it, he's got licence to. If there's an offload that he thinks he's got control of, he's got licence to. And that's not wavered really. We've been pretty positive in how we've played and that's what's kept us in games really. What we need now to take us on is probably some of the decision making under pressure. That will come with experience and experience isn't one season unfortunately. It's probably when players get between 23-24 years of age, that's when they have been in the driving seat for long enough to have the game slowed down and they make better decisions. And if I'm honest as well, it's a tough thing to say, but I think at the end of some of our games, we haven't had much luck. If you think Zebra 86 minutes, Benetton red card at the end, three points, Conor early red card, Scarlett's early red card, Munster obviously something's been upgraded to a red card with 10 minutes left and we're right in the game. And then it doesn't get any worse in the weekend. So we could genuinely be on probably 13-14 more points and in the top eight. It's a different narrative then. But the positive is we've given ourselves a chance to do that because our fight and our effort has been pretty good. It's one of those interesting ones because I know when we started at the start of the season, there was all the whole things of only eight people turning up for training, the issues with Guy, which we're definitely not going to go into because that's a whole can of worms I don't want to open. But actually, thinking back at the start of the season, if you told me we'd be competitive in every game and getting a losing bonus point in all but three, and two of those three are to lose in Europe and then start to get your hand off of it. So it's quite encouraging, actually, if you look at performances from the start of the season to now, because obviously a lot of people see this as a more difficult block, a lot of good pictures for the start. Actually, it's quite encouraging seeing that attack is looking a lot more polished. Some of the passes haven't gone to hand, but I think it is showing that the team is getting better and probably exceeded a lot of people's expectations. I think you've always got credit for that. It's been a good learning curve for me as well, actually, especially this away block now because I know at the arms part we'll always compete because that's where we come alive there. It's a great home ground to have and I can see it in the boys when we're playing it and there's a lot of confidence there. When you looked at the fixture list and you saw Glasgow, Munster, Ulster away, it was almost right, how are we going to cope with this? Because it is so different on the road. We obviously, to get to Ulster, we travel Thursday morning, get there Thursday early evening, you've got a whole day in a hotel, you walk out at Ulster and it's a pretty intimidating place and we've got some young kids. I was wondering if at some stage we'd dip and I've got to say there's not been a huge difference away from home than there has at home. To be fair to a young group of players, they've coped mentally really well with travelling away and there's genuinely been no lack of belief as well. There was so much confidence going into the Ulster game. I think we've learned a few lessons on the way. The positive things are as well is what I'm really keen for it to be is not alright, we learn just by playing. I listen because I'm bored and I listen to a few podcasts and whatever. I shouldn't say that on a podcast really. It's making sure that our players, so I'm very keen for our players, difficult to say this, not to just think by playing they're learning because that's not where it happens. You gain some experience by playing but your learning happens after by reviewing the game and thinking right, how would I deal with this differently? What would I do if I'm in this situation again? So there's some individual learning that goes on and then probably collectively as a group as well is just making sure that we're really drilling down and saying right, what were the instances in this game that could have got us over the line or what's the one or two areas that we feel we need to get better at that takes the game out of a referee's hand. So I'll give you an example of the last couple of weeks. We felt the quality of our first three phases and our contact area wasn't allowing us to put enough pressure on the opposition. We felt we're pretty good when we get in the 22, we're in the top half of the league of points scored once we get entries but we weren't getting enough entries. So it's really important for the players I think that they hear from the coaches when we come into the office on a Monday and say right, these are the two things that we need to do to turn one point into four points and again, we were pretty close to doing that on the weekend but the positive is we've got the basics there, we've got a group of players who enjoy playing with each other, are proud to play for Cardiff but we're learning as well so it's not just all blind effort. We will get there with the technical and tactical side of the game as well but that takes a little bit longer. Finishing off the away block then you've got after this weekend, the fun two weeks in South Africa that we have to go through every year. Obviously this weekend's result may impact that a bit but what's the sort of aim out there? Is it going to be a bit of rotation, give everybody a chance to experience playing out there or are we going out there for two wins and that's what we're aiming for? Yeah, we go out there for two wins. There's not been a game this season genuinely as well where we've not gone anywhere to win. The last three weeks we've gone to three of the best teams in the league and the last play of the game we thought we'd won it and we've had the ball to win in the two games before that. If you think of Cardiff in the past and I've been there as well so it's not a criticism, we'd win by 34-12 at the Arms Park and then we'd get a Glasgow and we'd lose 48-12 and I don't think that's a good team. I think that's a team that rock up at home and then away from home crumble. I'm really keen for us to just be competitive in every game. Obviously we want to turn the narrow losses into wins but we're in the fight. We're right in the contest whether we're home or away. We're going to try and beat Edinburgh and then we'll go to the Lions. No excuses. Forget the travel, forget altitude, we'll go there to beat them and then we'll dust ourselves down and try and beat the Sharks. Obviously whether we will or not I can't promise but that's the goal. There'll be some rotation because I think, and again probably from being in the game, I think it's important to have a healthy environment and I think players not just being professional trainers thinking that they've got a chance of playing and there's some competition makes the dressing room and the meeting rooms a little bit more buoyant. Obviously we've got a squad of say 40, there's only 23 involved so there's always 17 not happy. I think it's really important to reward those players and if they're in a Cardiff squad they should be good enough to play for Cardiff. There will be a bit of rotation but not at the expense of just giving away experience. That takes us up until Judgement Day and then the new season. Membership season tickets went out today and what would you say to those fans that are perhaps listening to this hopefully and thinking I'm unsure whether to get a season ticket for next season. What does second season of Matt Sherratt look like in Cardiff? What I'd say to them is probably watch some of our games from this season because I think regardless of the end result it's been a pretty enjoyable place to be at the arm's part. We obviously had two sell-outs in Europe. A sell-out against Dragons on Boxing Day which is fairly normal with the Derbys but for me like the Connaught game I know it was a club day but I think the fans have been treated to some pretty good rugby this season really. Definitely the two things that they'll see if they come and watch Cardiff whilst I'm there is I'll always be reminding the players to have pride in the shirt so that effort level will never drop and they're going to watch a team that plays positive rugby. I took my boy to three things last year so I took him to watch a 100 game Gloucestershire, I took him to watch Liverpool-Tottenham and I took him to watch Gloucester-London-Irish this is like 18 months ago, two years ago. The 100 game he stayed to the end, he loved it. The Liverpool game he stayed to the end, he loved it and at 53 minutes Gloucester-London-Irish he asked to go home and I thought how sad is it that the only sport that he's wanted to leave because he's bored is a rugby match and I don't think we can't have that in Liverpool. I want people to come and enjoy watching us play. I'm not saying that that's more important than the result but I think you've got to strive to have both. I want people walking in the doors at the Arms Park knowing that we're going to watch a team who are going to not try and entertain but are going to try and be positive that if they see space they're going to try and attack it, if they kick it's going to be for the reason to get the ball back and the players play without anxiety, they're not afraid to make mistakes. They're the two things that I can pretty much guarantee that we'll be brave with how we play and we'll be physically brave as well. Looking ahead to the squad for next season, I'm sure we'll have some announcements over the next few weeks now but just on a general level, two elements to this, what areas of the squad are you looking to strengthen and is it going to follow, I think we've seen a bit of a pattern this year, Tinas has come in from the Curry Cup where we've never really picked anyone up from before and Donald's come in from the fringes of the Gloucester squad, it's new areas that we're looking to recruit from rather than same old couple of lads from the other Welsh regions and then one or two big names from super rugby type thing, is that something that could continue? Yeah, so listen, I think where budgets are at the moment, I don't want to get gloom and doom with it, I think we've got to get away from budget talk, whatever squad we've got, we've got to try and maximise its potential so we've just got to try and make whatever squad we've got over perform but I think the days are gone now, especially at the moment where you're going for the top end players in super rugby whose salaries start with threes really, that's not the way to go with a £4.5 million salary cap which is in place at the moment so the first place to look for me and I think about Cardiff and I think forget negativity, what are our unique selling points? Our two unique selling points for me are our academy, our region should be the golden egg in terms of talent, look at the Rhondda front row, Teddy Williams, Seb Davies, Alex Mann, Cam Winnett, Ellis Jenkins, Mackenzie Martin, Lucas de la Rua, Benny Thomas, Mason Grady, it's unbelievable, they're all Cardiff boys. I'm from Gloucester, I was chatting to one of the Gloucester coaches on the way home in the car today, there's not one lad from Gloucester at the moment playing for Gloucester, it shouldn't be like that so the first place we need to look to recruit is the boys who have grown up watching Cardiff play at the Arms Park, we've got to put everything into that because it's a unique selling point. Our second unique selling point is where the stadium is, it's right in the middle of one of the best cities in the world, that will get players to Cardiff so first and foremost is let's get players for our academy, secondly when we're looking to recruit players, let's show them the city because you're 25 minutes from a beach, you're 10 minutes from the train station, you've got Bute Park, you've got the castle, you've got comedy, you've got cricket, you've got football, it's a brilliant place to come and live for a young lad especially or someone with a family. So to answer your question, academy first and then I know how I want to play at Cardiff so it's not just recruiting blindly, it's about what player looks like a Cardiff player, I've got in my mind in each position what a Cardiff player looks like so it's obviously you're shopping at the right levels in terms of budget wise but it's still got to be someone who looks like they can play in a Cardiff shirt. You look at Tinas as an example, he's brave and he's all out there, he will offload, look at his offload to Gonzalo at the end against Ulster, look at Ben Donnell, he did a reverse pass in about the 15th minute against Ulster, I watched his clips when he was at London Irish, he's fast, he offloads, he's a Cardiff player and that's what we've got to try and find so it's not going to be right at the top end of the international game, we're going to have to work really hard to try and as I said firstly find it in the region and then secondly maybe around Curry Cup level and ITM Cup overseas but only the right type of player, no one that's blocking our players coming through the pathway. Probably squad wise where we're like just so I answer your questions, obviously loose head with Reece leaving at the moment we've only got Corey Domachowski and Reece Barrett in contract so that's a priority position, obviously with Thomas Williams leaving at the moment we've only got Ellis Bevan in contract so that's another priority, they're the two biggies really. The rest of the squad are probably short of maybe a back or two as well and potentially around the lock area but a lot of that will depend on budget and if the right player's out there, if the right player's not out there I think we go with what we've got and wait until we get the right player because we're not in any position to be wasting money. I think that'll be encouraging for people to hear who've maybe argued we've gone and splashed that money on the wrong players in the past. Just sort of go into the thing about developing from within the academy, obviously it's still very early days and we're still not entirely sure how it's going to work but with the EDC coming into place and the Rags moving up to that, how do you think that's going to fit into your plans to develop the next Mackenzie Martin camp with it? Yeah in fact that's a good question that because it's probably something I haven't thought of but it's again, my mindset is what's right with Cardiff and Welsh rugby not what's wrong with it and I think having Cardiff RFC and Cardiff Rugby playing on the same pitch with Dan Fish will be coaching, he obviously coaches the RFC at the moment but he'll coach the EDC, Josh Turnbull will be involved, Craig Everett and Griff, we're having breakfast with them most mornings so the transition for our players playing in the EDC, getting the same technical and tactical coaching and the same language being used and how easy it is for me just to speak to Fishy on a Monday morning and say, how did Will Davies King go at the weekend or Reece Barrett is massive and I don't know another club like that, it's pretty unique so I think that EDC competition with the right coaches in it and it'll probably take a little bit of time to find its way I would imagine as a competition but I think it'll be great for us, like if Steph Emmanuel SEO he goes and Tom Bowen but he could find himself playing against some pretty experienced, playing with some pretty experienced players and some experienced coaches in that league. Yeah you've almost said one of the questions which was about Steph Emmanuel and looking ahead to the virtual question, is there someone that you're aware of that's coming through that perhaps hasn't had the game time this season that might get the game time next season you're excited to see or a couple of names? Do you know what, probably this season everyone who's been just under the radar has poked their heads above it really and ended up in a red shirt as well as a Cardiff one haven't they so I think there's more to come from Lucas de la Rua and do you know I've probably mentioned a couple of lads as well, he's not off the radar and he's not a young player anymore but I think Harry Millard and Gabe have got big futures there as well, he's been a little bit unfortunate with injuries Harry and then Gabe come in and started off really well, he was obviously only on a short term contract so I'm pretty excited to see how those two boys go next season, I think with a regular run of games they could become really good players for Cardiff. Lucas de la Rua as well, he obviously he's played a little bit at the start of the season, pretty competitive with the 20s I think he can come through and probably the two lads you mentioned then I think I looked at Steph's footage I think it was October November time and Griff sent me some of his footage from Wales 18s and when he played for Bath and he was someone that straight away I'll be honest I looked at and his basics are really good and I was almost trying to find something that right we can improve you in that area, I'm not saying at 18 he's the product but like little things he catches early, his ball place, his ball presentation is really good, his work off the ball is good so he made like a last ditch tackle I think it was against England 18s he got up off the floor and ran on a diagonal and stopped somebody just before the ball was getting to him he scans to see where the defence is and I think if we can nurture that he could be pretty good for us but it's making sure that we get that right as well so listen he's 18 so we're not just going to chuck him in we'll see how he goes in pre-season but if there's one thing I've learnt this year is not to discount players because of youth like if you put them in there they learn pretty quickly they're not going to get better by sitting on the sideline so I think it's how we integrate those type of players really because I've been really mindful as well with the likes of say Kam and Manny if you think the trajectory that their careers have taken this season it's brilliant to watch but their probably stress levels and their load into how much they've played and trained I'm making the number up now but I would imagine it's gone up by at least 50% so we've got to show a real care of duty for those boys as well and I actually remember Toby Blues saying when he was at London Irish it's important to know when to sometimes give players a rest not letting young players go one game too many and they fall off a cliff and their last memory is a bad one is sometimes letting the likes of Alex Mann have a really good game but then saying do you know what mate we're going to give you two weeks to yourself now and we're going to give Shane Lewis or Jim Botham a game I think I've been watching that pretty carefully this year it's been difficult to rest them because they've played so well but sometimes if they're not playing take it that they're getting a rest rather than they're not playing because of performance. Just on Steph Manuel quickly it might be a bit early to say but more 12 than 13? Yeah I think so I think he's played around a little bit I think he's played actually a little bit at 10 as well but I look at him as a 12 so the back line that I like is I like running threats at 9 and 10 I think having a 9 you think Thomas we've been spoilt with he's a brilliant player Tommy like but defences can't take their eyes off him, Tinus can take the ball to the line I like a 12 who's a second playmaker so obviously like a Ben Thomas, Jacob Beetham can probably play 12 as well I think, Steph Manuel type I like a 13 like Ray basically yeah a 13 who's more of a carrier and can fend and can offload so Mason basically and Ray and I like a big winger and a stepper so say a Theo and someone like a Mace or a Dabsey on the other wing who are more power athletes and then a 15 say when obviously Gareth Hanscom played for us who we want to have ball movement as a Cardiff team so I think we need we need a 10, 12 and a 15 who can step up as first receivers that's that's how I see a back line like that my idea you can't always get that but that would be my ideal back line yeah so at the moment I see Steph in that role as someone who can step in and distribute but I think the advantage he's got as well and actually Max Llewellyn really improved on this as well his distribution got much better as well Max so hopefully Steph will have the double threat he can he can carry but like I like you know as I said I like 12s who play in the Cardiff shirt to be able to move the ball yeah that sounds it sounds like we almost need to bring you on to hear like your 15 dream Cardiff players in each number but we did we did note down a question like who is if you could bring back one ex-Cardiff player to play in the in your current side and play in your system who would it be and why? That's quite a good question that probably the obvious one I suppose is after I just talked about a nine who's a running threat would be Sagareth he'd be alright wouldn't he as a as a nine I think I could see him off our first ruck off an edge running with the ball and interest in a few defenders I used to really like Ben Blair as well when he was at Cardiff John Loma would be quite nice as well I think he'd be alright yeah so probably I'll probably give the obvious answer there the number nine Sagareth would be quite nice with with Tinas and Callum Sheeley next year wouldn't he? I think that's a fantastic answer I think that I think what we might do is we'll put that question out to the listeners as well to see what weird and wonderful names come up for their team again two members of CF10 who will say Dan Fish is the right answer you wouldn't be getting that answer off me I'm telling you you definitely wouldn't get that answer off Gethin Jenkins sort of moving sort of stepping up from the regional game what are your thoughts on the heavy Cardiff representation in the last Wales squad you know that is it a bit frustrating because you're losing players to Wales or is it you know a really great thing because you know it just shows how good a job you and the boys have done no I loved it I genuinely I was probably I'll be honest with you probably one of the proudest moments I've had coaching really when when that squad was announced and I think we had 11 in there I actually felt pretty emotional reading the list and we it was just before we went into a team meeting especially because obviously I don't think you can ever take it for granted the likes of Josh Adams and Thomas Williams it's still a every announcement is still a pretty special day for them because it's wearing a Wales shirt but I think having like obviously Mackenzie in it Alex Mann can win it Evan Lloyd in particular like Teddy getting back in and Mason like to have the privilege of watching a young group of players really fulfill their dream is it's a pretty cool job to have really in it so like I walked into the team room and I think the boys had just had emails as well and you could see there was a like a fair bit of emotion with like Evan Lloyd and like you could just feel in the room that there was a fair bit of like pride from some of the younger sorry the older boys as well that the young lads got in there so I'm yeah I'd love it if we had more of the same in the summer like it makes my job a little bit more difficult because we haven't got numbers for training but like this as I said to you at the start if I want if I want players to come to Cardiff and think that they're going to develop and get a chance to wear in a Cardiff shirt it's only going to be good for Cardiff long term so yeah let's hope we get more of the same I think. It's interesting you say more of the same just because like is there not a slight element that says a couple of those young lads like you mentioned Alex Mound and Mackenzie Martin with the heavy workload a summer off might help them long term? I don't I don't think so I think that's probably more towards like the end of your careers having a summer off and look I'll give Ellis Jenkins as an example Ellis could have easily been a 50, 100 capper couldn't he? You never know in this game how many times you're going to be able to pull on a red shirt so if you're fit and healthy like take the chance when it comes because it's what you play for it's what your mum and dad have taken you to games of rugby for so to give your family the opportunity to go and watch you play for Wales is something that I don't think you can think too far in the future really for those young boys you know sometimes someone who's got 50, 60 caps if they feel they need a summer off and it fits with a Welsh squad then it's not a bad idea but for those young boys we'll make sure we look after them when they come back to us. For those young boys especially Alex and Cam in particular when you were with that squad of eight at the start of the season were you looking at them you know what odds would you have had on them getting into the international squad and taking it to the deck like a duck to water like they have? Have they surprised you how well they've taken to well regional rugby first and foremost and then the international scene or were you expecting it almost? No the smart answer would be yeah I knew all along but I didn't. I didn't actually know Cam and Manny that well really before the start of this season I also like as well every time we mention pre-season the number goes down and we'll be a touch game between me Ritchie Reece and Gethin Jenkins before long in the off season but no so obviously those boys come in I was really impressed straight away with their maturity like they've you kind of as a coach and I think senior players do this as well and it's always interesting to hear the senior players opinion as well it's like it's quite daunting starting training with a first team squad so say for the likes of Alex Mann or Steph Emmanuel next year he's grown up really watching Toby and Josh Adams and Reece Priestland who was here last year and this to go from playing school or academy or in the twenties to actually now right now they're my teammates and I've got to train with them is quite daunting so I always just watch it's not even sometimes how they play it's just how they carry themselves when they come onto the pitch and some players you can just see they stroll onto the field and you think yeah they believe that they belong there and that happens at different stages with players as well so sometimes you can see it quite early sometimes it takes a bit of time but with Cam and Manny in particular they never look stressed they look like they have time on the ball they look like players if you give them some information by the time the next session come around they've kept that information and they were able to build on it so they give you little signs with their temperament and their ability to improve but they were going to be good players I didn't obviously know that they were going to get picked so soon in the Six Nations but genuinely when they got into the Six Nations because of their temperament I knew they'd be alright they're pretty level headed kids and if they do get flustered they hide it pretty well so you could definitely see there was something in them that they could play at that level yeah. I think that's all the questions on our list just a couple of standard ones we ask all the guests so just very quickly North Stand or South Stand? I haven't got a clue to be honest, North. Moving on and then the other one which is always a silly one is what's your favourite kind of biscuit? Probably a milk chocolate digestive for me I think. Solid choice. I think unless Colin or Dan have any questions, you spend a lot of time answering questions from the media, are there any questions you've got for us that you'd like to ask us at all? Not really, probably something I would like to say, this isn't anything to do with like that I should say but what probably to thank you guys as well and like the supporters in general this season it's like genuinely the positivity around like the messaging from you guys and like the support that the not just the matchday crowd but I think like it's been really eye-opening for me probably something that has changed about being a head coach is like more people will have a chat with you when you walk for a coffee in Cardiff but the general positivity around the place genuinely has a massive effect on the players and the staff and you know I've been on the other side of that at other clubs and it's not it genuinely doesn't doesn't help so I know it's the coachy thing to do but genuinely like for you guys with your messaging around social media and our supporters you've been for the players it makes such a big such a big difference to us so like probably like on behalf of the players but myself personally as well like thanks for how positive you've been around the club as well because listen we knew it's going to be a tough tough season like next season will be tough as well that again not to make excuses but we're in a period that we were I'm kind of afraid that we fought this season we've shown a lot of fight next season we've got to grow a little bit but it's still going to be slow growth it's not going to be a quick fix and yeah just to re-emphasise really your support around that has really helped a young group of players and a team stay pretty connected with each other and with you guys so thanks for that really. Thanks for your time Matt, thanks for coming on. Right no problem. Yeah I think that positivity has worked both ways though in fairness I think the positivity we've seen on the pitch has been something that the fans have really bought into and they'll make it continue. Yeah is there anything else from you guys in terms of what you'd like to see around the club or anything that we could do as a club to make like supporting Cardiff easier for you I know not winning the Heineken Cup I know that would make it easier but I promise that one. You can sort some more consistent kick-off times I don't know if you've got that sort of power. What about your connection with the players and things how do you find that on match days I love on a match day I think again what's unique about Cardiff we're the only team that gets a crowd on the pitch after that like for me that's a throwback to like the 80s and early 90s where the crowd was loud on the pitch I think that's really important is there anything around the match day where you think we can engage better as a club? I think it's probably the best it's been for a few years at the moment like we're all I think slightly out of that it's mainly for the sort of young kids and stuff there's been the most young supporters around the ground that I've seen for a long time you can get stuck into lower crowds and the average age is about like 50 of those of all of us who are just sort of stood there and have been for years and probably won't go anywhere. Getting older or the crowds are getting younger? I think just the way the lads like Mackenzie and stuff have really bought into their local community and getting out not just on match day but getting out you know you see him at Kyrie Lee on a Sunday morning and getting involved with the clubs I think that probably happens a lot more as well I think the club could probably perhaps send cameras with those sort of guys and get stuck in and show them getting into coaching and getting that young generation next generation involved but it's where it is in the moment is really good and that's come you know our positivity like I said comes from the club you know we I don't think we've generated that we've bought into what you guys are doing because of the messaging from you guys so as much as I think a lot of people the support does deserve credit for sticking with the side when we haven't been winning much this season I think that's because the work you guys are doing. Yeah I think as well on this weekend I'm quite keen for obviously we will have some leavers all the leavers are not confirmed yet but say the likes of say Thomas who has been confirmed and Rhys Carré and there will be some others is that after the game regardless of the result obviously the players will have a huddle on the pitch but then I'm keen for the whole of the matchday squad to come on the pitch the likes of Tommy who's injured and Josh Turnbull and Ellis who we've just found out is retiring and Rhys Carré who's at Cardiff Ladder I'm really keen for them to be on the pitch so like as supporters and obviously a lot of the younger supporters can come and come and wish them well as well I think that'll be quite a nice touch if you guys wouldn't mind spreading the word on that a little bit. Yeah yeah absolutely I think yeah we'll start tweeting that out to this podcast which will probably be Wednesday morning the recording Tuesday night but yeah just to echo what I said you know some of my fondest memories have been at Cardiff Arms Park going on to the pitch chatting with players win or lose they always make time for fans even though you know it hurts you know particularly in losses when they do it and you can tell it hurts them a bit you know you know fond memories because I like I tend to stand in the sort of crazy corner with the drums and you know you have Willis and Ray jumping over the holding so come in come and sing and dance with us all it's yeah it's just great fun and yeah I do find the players are always really well engaging so I say maybe with social media keep up the good work there's a promotion so whether it was for clubs day or or you know or when they have a Friday or Saturday Night Fiction making it big students I think that's in that marketing side of things been really good this season. Yeah you don't have to say that because Mike's listening. I didn't want to blow smoke but I have been really impressed with the video content that's gone out you know for the big occasions you know that Cam Sheeley signing that the season tickets I thought that was a really good video really nice pro input together yeah I just think it's adding to that volatility around the club which is really great you know we sometimes get a bit of stick about that we see the positivity in the team the positivity and everything but I think that's how everyone feels at the moment when they go to watch Cardiff it's an expectation there that they're going to see a good rugby you're going to see a team that's competitive but also going to regardless of result be proud of the performance and I think that's a really good thing going forward. Good thank you thanks very much cheers. Yes thank you for your time Matt it's been great listening to you I know certainly I when we found out you were coming on I was very very excited and did a little weird school girl dance in the middle of the kitchen just to just try and get a hold of myself but yeah. You haven't put the best thought in my mind before bedtime now. It's even worse if you ever see me dance. Let's hope we do that on Saturday afternoon maybe. Absolutely I think that'll be one for the YouTube channel once again thank you so much for all your time Matt thank you Karen and Dan for joining me and thank you all so much. Cheers mate thanks very much. Cheers. Thank you for listening to the Cardiff Central Podcast we hope you enjoyed the show please subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to us as it really helps spread the word you can find us on all usual social media channels or email us on welshregionalrugbypod at gmail.com and remember whatever the question is rugby is always the answer. Bye.