wtfwjd.1.liars

Two friends discuss the idea of starting a podcast and deciding on a name. They talk about Christianity and its reliance on fear and explore the hypocrisy they see in religion. They discuss the importance of truth and the negative impact of lies. They mention scriptures that condemn lying and discuss the behavior of politicians, particularly Donald Trump, who they believe lies frequently. They also touch on the relationship between Christianity and nationalism and the dangers of weaponizing religion. They end by discussing the consequences of lying according to scripture. I could say something like, Hi, Sarah. Okay. How are you doing? Hey, Celeste. I'm all right. Okay, so we're getting a feel for it. Yeah. Okay, so I was thinking we never really decided on a name. No. You said WTF WJD. WTF WJD. Yes. Yeah. Truly. A working title. Because the other day I was driving behind somebody and they had a bunch of bumper stickers and predominantly the bumper stickers were about Jesus and Jesus loves you and all that and they had a let's go Brandon sticker as well. I don't like just the I'm like, that's not Yeah, and it's like that's not what he was about at all. Between I don't have really any problem with Christianity on its face. I have a problem with Christians. I know we've talked about this too, but my motivation is not to tear apart Christianity or Islam or Judaism. I'm thinking mostly of patriarchal religions, but it's to kind of explore and expose the hypocrisy and the way that it is actually showing up now. Christianity is such a huge reliance on fear. Yeah. It's something that I'm excited about in regards to this podcast is like I'm completely open to being proven wrong or finding out things that I didn't know. Yeah, just in an effort to get to the truth. Your own truth or a universal truth? A little bit of both maybe. Yeah, I feel that way too. Remember when our desks were right next to each other? Oh, yes. Just some of the fondest memories. Best memories of that job. Do you remember one day when you started eating the banana and I looked at you awkwardly? I was so mad. Because you were eating the banana upside down. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and you were just like dude, try it. It opens up better this way. You know what? I open my bananas that way now. Yes. When I was a kid, I would like when I was by myself, I would swear. Because I would not do that in front of my parents until much later, but I remember thinking how many swears do I have left before I go to hell? Before you go too far? Mm-hmm before too late. Yeah. This all-powerful and creator of all really has would bother to worry about. Somebody said that, you know, people will worship the finger that's pointing to the moon instead of the moon itself. And I think that that is a good analogy of religion. Like religion is the finger that is pointing you to the moon. But that's not... You're supposed to look towards the moon. Right. Look at what it's pointing toward. Yeah. Okay, that is a good analogy. I like the imagery. Yeah, I wrote down a bunch of scripture about lying. Great. And I've been really concerned with lies and with people that lie. If a person is perpetuating it on a daily basis, like with the swears from when you were a kid, it's like at some point, can we just label a person a liar? Right. And just be like, you know what? They are showing us that they This is their lifestyle. Mm-hmm. I'd like to maybe just go down this list and we can have reactions. Please do. Okay, Proverbs 12, 22, lying lips are an abomination to the Lord. That's strong. I've got some news for people. Abomination is a big word. It's a huge word. Okay, how about Proverbs 6, 16 through 19? There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him. The second thing on this list is a lying tongue. After haughty eyes, which I don't really know what haughty eyes are, but a lying tongue I do. I think I think I think haughty eyes is like looking down on people. Okay, like think you're better than. Yeah, it's not making eyes at people. No, I don't think so. I think that's another kind of eyes. Okay, and then it goes on. Oh, in the same list, murder. Oh, so grouped together. Yes, it goes haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. So two lies. Why is mentioned twice in this list of things that God sees as an abomination. The sowing seeds of discord, I think is what it said. It's so, I think it's just so relevant. Like, we see Trump doing it all the time. I'm gonna say that man's name. I'd like to see it. Oh, thank you. Thank you, because I was gonna say it like five minutes ago, but yeah. Every day that man says things that are so charged, and it's not about his platform on how he's going to make this country a better place. And he's kind of a perfect tie-in because he also lies about so many things. And, you know, it's hard to imagine, but he does have supporters out there that would say he doesn't, or do they just accept his lies? Because it's documented. We don't have to document it here because it is documented. Yes, it's been well, well documented. And a supporter of his might say, well, Joe Biden lies too. Mm-hmm. Joe Biden should not lie. Right. People should not lie. Nobody should lie. Yeah, that's that's one of the bad things about being a politician. And his supporters, and he himself, would call him a Christian. Yeah. Because he said he is. He said he is. Am I being too rigid? No, um, I think politics is a joke. I think that the binary system is a joke. I think that it rewards lying. Yeah, it does. And so in suits of discord. And it rewards people who are looking for power. In our Christian nation, with our Christian politicians. Yeah. All of that behavior is rewarded. I've seen some footage of Trump supporters who will say, oh, yeah, he says vile things, but you know, sort of a... Do they believe it's in service to a greater good? Is that, is that what? I think so. I think so. I think some of it is, they feel represented, and they feel heard. And so they're willing to overlook, in my opinion, quite a bit. But, you know, Trump... We would feel that way. Yeah, we would. And so I think that people feel like they've been underdogs, or, you know, and in my opinion, they don't see that they've... The oppressor's holding them back? It's been, right. There's some quote that I'm not gonna get right, so I won't even try. But it's basically like, if you can get people mad at each other, you know, not only will you... They won't see what you're doing. They won't see you picking their pocket, and in fact, they'll hand things over to you. It's apt. Yeah. Very apt. Just recently, he held, he, being Trump, held a rally in New Jersey. He said there were 80,000 people there. The day before the rally, the woman who runs the area and runs the event space, told journalists that it held 20,000 people. Day of, the mayor, who's super MAGA, says, oh, there were 80,000, 100,000 people there, and everybody latched on to that number. Roger Stones posted a picture of some concert from the 80s, and said, this was the crowd. Then, he said, oh, it's just a joke. Just a joke. Nobody can take a joke. Well, okay. Right. Why I really like this one, Proverbs 26, 18-19. Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, I'm only joking. Whoa! That seems like a direct reference. Right. Firebrands, arrows, death, those are dangerous things. Mm-hmm. They shouldn't be thrown around. Yeah. But, you know, it's just a joke. So, I think that's an excuse for a lot of people, a lot of times. It has been, and I think that there's been, there's a constant us and them, us versus them, and liberals can be guilty of, just as guilty, of falling into that, as conservatives. But, one of the things that has been said about liberals is, we're too sensitive, and we're snowflakes, and, you know, can't take a joke. This is famously, yeah. I was thinking just now. Some jokes are funny. Right. Some jokes aren't jokes. There is such an incestuous relationship between Christianity in this country and nationalism. Yeah. Yeah, I would put that in the category of religion being weaponized. Mm-hmm. And, used as an opiate. Absolutely. And, getting people to embrace things that are dangerous to others. Okay, let's do another scripture. Let's. In Revelations 21, 8, all liars, the phrase all liars, is tantamount to all these other things. Listen to this. But, as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. So, lying will get you thrown in hell just like murderers or sexually immoral acts. Interesting. But, you know, that's then. If Trump can give people what they want now, does it matter where he ends up? Right. I don't know. I don't think so. Leviticus 19, 11, you shall not steal, you shall not deal falsely, you shall not lie to one another. Proverbs 14, 5, A faithful witness does not lie, but a false witness breathes out lies. I'm pretty sure I've heard some pundit or another say that he's breathing lies. Mm-hmm. The wicked are estranged from the womb. They go astray from birth, speaking lies. So, if you say lies, a wicked person always lies? Or, if you say lies, you're always wicked? I think it's a wicked person always lies. Probably? Can you read it again? Yes. The wicked are estranged from the womb. They go astray from birth, speaking lies. Okay, so you're wicked first and then... Yeah, I think that's like for people that are born wicked. You just can't trust them. I'd like to be able to know who they are. Okay. Uh... Colossians 3, 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices. I think we need more context for that one. I think so, too. So, Colossians would be a letter that St. Paul wrote to the, like, um, what's the word that I'm looking for? Basically, they weren't even called Christians at that point, but the Jews that believed in Jesus. Okay. So, he would have been writing to them in Colossus. Okay. So, he was writing to the Colossians. Yes. And it sounds like what he's saying is, hey, don't lie. You're better people now. You've already discarded that, right. So, lying is something that good people Okay, that's good to know. Psalm 34, 13 Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit. Mmm. I mean, we hear from Trump's lips anger and just meanness. Vitriol. Yeah, that's not a good word. That's what it is. I see him as particularly dangerous, but one of the things that bothers me or is concerning to me about him is that I am not sure that he believes any of what he says. I don't think he does. Because he's made a couple of 180s in his life on a lot of different topics. In my estimation, he's telling people what he thinks they want to hear. I've heard that one-on-one he'll transform your perception So, I don't doubt that at all. That he has that side of him? Well, I mean, I listen to true crime a lot, and a lot of psychopaths have that warm, charming side. It's one-on-one. It's a totally different beast. Because they're only working you. Okay. God never lies. Titus 1, 2. So, you know, I believe a lot of Christians say they want to walk with God. The way of the cross and all that. I like ones like this. Proverbs 10, 9 Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out. Will be found out. And, you know, I kind of feel like that's what's happening with this child. That he has said, oh, that never happened but then you have all of these time-stamped and dated things saying, oh, they did. They did happen. So, it's nice to have light shone on that. So, what's interesting to me is that I think that if you are a Trump supporter and you are a Christian it's almost like you have a choice to make. If all of this is true, all of these things in the Bible are true about liars and sowers of discord then it would seem to me that you would be faced with a choice between the person and the tenets of your faith. Yeah, it seems like a really hard thing from where I'm standing to reconcile. Do they understand that's what people maybe on our side of the binary think? Like, that we're just trying to understand? It's so simple. How do you make that balance? Do you not feel the cognitive dissonance? The tension between those two things? Two things can be true at the same time but those ones seem so different. They seem on a spectrum on opposite sides. And I think at least um for me we could go through and sort of dissect at some point the different factions of Christianity if that's a... I do think that there is a lack and again I'm not a biblical scholar I'm not an expert in any of this but I think there's a lack of knowledge about the Bible in everyday Christianity. Not to say that if somebody were to listen to this podcast and hear these Bible verses that they'd be like, Oh! Trump's the antithesis. I don't know. We see him as the antithesis. We're having a really hard time reconciling this. That he's leading such a great faction of our country. I mean a huge faction in its greatness and its hugeness. Um A man who bears false witness against his neighbor is like a war club or a sword or a sharp arrow. Okay. So people like... So deadly. Yeah. And people like MTG, they want fighters. I mean she's mad right now at our Speaker of the House because he's not fighting hard enough for their cause. Um But here it doesn't seem like lying in order to get what you want is I'm interpreting as it's not a good deal. I think that's not the way. That's saying don't do this. Those are hard things that hurt people. Yeah. Swords, arrows, clubs. Wound or kill. If we go back Right. And lying is tantamount to killing. Yeah. Deuteronomy 520 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. I seem to remember that neighbors are important in the Bible. Mm-hmm. We like neighbors. Okay. So we should be good to our neighbors. We don't want to lie to or about our neighbors. Uh This one might be a little touchy. Proverbs 17 4 An evildoer listens to wicked lips and a liar gives ear to a mischievous tongue. Hmm So an evildoer listens to wicked lips. So someone who may listen to a person's lies and be like, yay, I love those lies Mm-hmm. Are they the evildoer in this? That's what it sounds like to me. Um I think, yeah, I think it's saying that whoever is listening is complicit. Yeah. And a mischievous tongue and a liar gives ear to a mischievous tongue. So the person speaking the lies. Mm-hmm. Uh Those people with mischievous tongues the, like the people that are going to spread the lies. Like Right. Right. In this echo chamber. A liar gives ear to a mischievous tongue. So the liar He's listening. Yeah. to a mischievous tongue. So liars beget liars. Yeah. So are they calling people who follow liars, liars? And evildoers. Proverbs 17 4 An evildoer listens to wicked lips and a liar gives ear to a mischievous tongue. Mm-hmm. That sounds bad for a lot of people who support liars. Yeah. Just my heart hurts for people sometimes. Yeah. I feel like they're being led astray. Don't believe these are bad people. No. I, well I don't I don't, okay as a as a majority I don't think someone who supports Trump is necessarily or automatically a bad person. Right. I just I do think there are bad people though that take advantage of the chaos he's in. Oh 100%. They're bad people. Mm-hmm. I really want to read this one. I think I really like this one. It's Roman 16 17 13 I appeal to you brothers to watch out for those who cause division and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught. Avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. And by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. That says it all. Yeah. Truly. I don't want to offend anybody by calling them a naïve. I don't want to be like, oh you're naïve, you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Because I never know what I'm talking about. I don't know what we're talking about right now. I've been naïve my whole life. I've gotten myself into very many perilous positions because of my naivety. But causing divisions, creating obstacles, contrary to the doctrine. The doctrine that they've been taught here, I mean that goes back to like the golden rule, right? Mm-hmm. Like how we're supposed to treat other people, how we're supposed to, what we're supposed to value. Right. The way we're supposed to conduct each other, ourselves. Yeah. It sounds like the Lord Christ wants humans to be harmonious. Mm-hmm. And it sounds like people who so, in their estimation at least, the people who are sowing the seeds of division, creating obstacles, are serving their own appetite and their smooth talk and flattery is to deceive people. And that's what I see Trump doing every day. Absolutely. He's tearing apart he's, well if you repeat anything enough people start to believe it. Mm-hmm. It's one of the reasons I distrust religion. Um Matthew 7 15 Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Yeah, I see him as a bully. Oh. And I see all these other people who have felt bullied for so long now they're being embraced by a bully. Mm. So they get to be on the winning side. Interesting. Um, but they may feel like they've been othered. Yes. Yes. And that now they're being embraced and feel good. That makes sense to me. That absolutely makes sense to me. I'm taking a stand that lies are bad. You heard it here. Lies are bad. Seems very clear. So we should probably rebuke every politician and just start with a clean slate. We have to start over. I think the other side feels the same way. I hear a lot of people on the right saying that religion needs to be back in the country. Mm-hmm. Like we need more religion. Yes. So I guess that's what we're trying to figure out. Right, and then my question is, what religion? Okay, here's a Hosea 4-2. There is swearing, lying, murder, stealing, and committing adultery. They all break bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed. Basically all these come back to the same thing, though, that lying is. I mean, thou shalt not lie. Mm-hmm. There were a couple more of these that I thought were really good, two more in particular. 1 John chapter 2 4 Whoever says, I know him, but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Ooh! Preach, John! So if you claim to be a Christian, but then you're perpetually doing things like cheating on your wife and lying about it, the truth is Okay. The truth is not in that person. But if they repent and stop behavior, they could get the truth. Yes. Okay. It seems like that would require some humility. I don't see a lot of that coming from a person like Trump. He's always talking about how great he is. Right. He's self-aggrandizing. All the time. He's inflating. This is Isaiah 32. Okay. As for the scoundrel, his devices are evil. He plans wicked schemes to ruin the poor with lying words, even when the plea of the needy is right. Ooh. Okay. Wicked schemes to ruin the poor. Did I read Luke 16.10? I don't think you read anything from Luke. Okay. Luke 16.10. Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much. And whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? I tacked on 11 right there at the end. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, so this is asking us to examine our trustworthiness. If you can't be trusted with true riches, let's say that is the past God or whatever, I think that speaks very much to the weaponizing of religion. Yeah, that resonates. Because if you're not trustworthy, then of course that kind of information or power, you can't be trusted with that. Yeah, but if you're willing to lie about a little, it gets easier and easier to lie about the big things. And yeah, once you've broken trust, how do you get that back? I don't know that you do. More and more leaders are chasing their own ends. I mean, they have forever. I mean, the people that seek power, not the people that should have power. Right. Your sister will listen. Good. If she's the only listener, I love her, and that's awesome. I'm so glad she's here. Then it's worth it. Totally. Maybe we'll have a podcast and just the three of us will talk. She would love that. I do the world a favor. What a gift. We'll wrap it up for now. I think this is a good place to stop. We'll try to be better. I'm really glad you came over. Thank you very much. I look forward to doing this again. Me too.