Miriam 1

Miriam discusses various topics including money, religion, and politics. She believes that these subjects are important to talk about and that telling the truth is crucial. She considers herself militantly secular and does not believe in religion, although she still observes certain Jewish traditions. She also expresses her pride in being Jewish and discusses her parents, who she describes as wonderful people. She attributes her confidence to the love and adoration she received from her parents. Miriam, you're the best person to be talking to because there's a line in your book where you say, when people say to me, I never talk about money, religion or politics, I say, what the bleep do you talk about then? Yes. Well, these are the subjects that people are fascinated by. Sex, money, politics and religion. They are the things people want to talk about. I do have other subjects. I like talking about old age and genealogy and the war and being Jewish and all those things. But, you know, I like the central subjects. And it isn't bad form to talk about money because it's an essential part of life and we all have to have an attitude towards it. I quite agree. Do you find your book is called This Much Is True and telling the truth, if you tell the truth, according to you, you shame the devil? Yes. Well, I was always brought up to tell the truth. Clearly, several prime ministers have not felt the same need or had a different upbringing. But I think the truth is very important. You know when you're doing the wrong thing. You know when you're lying. It's perfectly clear to each person. And I think everybody has to make a moral choice, that our lives are packed with choices, moral choices, and we have to stand up and be counted. So, I do tell the truth. I don't lie. I don't think I've ever lied. I don't see the point of it, especially now, because I won't remember what lie I've told and I'll get found out. There's no point at all. Are you happy to start with religion? Absolutely. Yes, of course. You've described yourself as militantly secular, which is very secular indeed. It's difficult to say what I really think about this without offending people. And I don't ever want to offend. I think I've spent most of my life offending people. And people take umbrage incredibly easily. But, you know, to me, religion and God is mumbo-jumbo. It's just a lot of nonsense. And morality is a different thing. That is absolutely what I uphold. But I cannot see the point of religion. And I think there's an awful lot of hypocrisy and untruth about it. And it also divides people. Look what happened in Israel. Look what happened in Ireland. Look at the Crusades. Religion says that it's meant to bring people together and do good and, in some ways, provide a moral background, but it doesn't do any of those things. So I just feel embarrassed when people say that they have faith. I don't have faith. And I don't think I ever really did. My parents certainly did. And I was brought up, you know, not ultra-Orthodox, but I was brought up, I think we call it observant. And the funny thing is, I am still observant. I still observe many of the Jewish dietary laws and other laws without believing that there is a God to oversee the matter. I just do it for my parents. And your parents were both convinced believers, were they? Yes. We didn't actually talk about it much. It was just a given, you know. We didn't go to synagogue every Saturday because my father was a doctor and he worked on Saturdays. But we went to synagogue on the three main holy days of the Jewish year. And, you know, we were members of the synagogue and I am still. Can you remember the point that you and belief parted company or do you think you maybe never had it? I don't think that there was an epiphany or anything like that. I just slowly realised that there was a position I could hold, which was of atheism. And sometimes I think, you know, you should hedge your bets and say you're an agnostic and say you don't know, which is the truth, because I don't know. But I see absolutely no sign of any kind that there is a God. You know, either an old man or woman in the sky who looks down, and I obviously don't believe in Jesus. I never did. I think he was a damn good political leader. I've always thought that. But really, I don't have any insights about religion. I believe that we should do good, have a moral check within us so that we follow the right path. And I believe largely, I suppose, in the Ten Commandments, but I don't think of them as religiously inspired. I think that's about how you live, how you live your life. And for me, the central tenet is do unto others as you would do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I think that the English are naturally anti-Semitic. Do you? I think if you say, you know, what comes into your mind if I say the word Jew to an English person? It's not a nice thing at all. No. Is that not also the case in America, where I think that... No, probably not. No. I don't know if it is in America. I think anti-Semitism is very much more widespread than it was when I was growing up, because it was just after the war, and people were so appalled at what had happened that anti-Semitism had to be kept down a bit. But now, because of Israel and the appalling happenings of the Israeli government and the cruelty meted out to the Palestinians, it's okay to be anti-Semitic. And I think people naturally are, not particularly the Labour Party, although I think it is a prejudice which ignorant people have, rather than schooled people. On the other hand, I think many members of the upper classes and the Tory party is definitely anti-Semitic. So, and when I meet it, I hate it, and I stamp it out, and I'll call it out, you know. I really hate it. And I'm very proud of being Jewish. I think it makes me terribly interesting and a person of intelligence and good food taste. And we have better food. I mean, I'm going to be writing about this in my next book, but you know, in our family, we felt very sorry for Christians. We felt that they were kind of second-class citizens. They didn't know what good food was. They didn't know how to cook. They didn't know. They weren't clever. They were sort of stupid people. That's what we thought of Christians. Do you think your parents would mind that you're not a practising Jew? Yes, I do. Well, the funny thing is, I am a practising Jew. I'm just not a believing Jew, because I keep the dietary laws. I don't eat pork. I don't eat shellfish. I don't mix meat and milk. I keep Passover. I fast on Yom Kippur. You know, all these things which I was brought up to do. But I do it for my parents. I don't do it for God. God can manage. I do it for my parents. Can you tell me a little bit about your parents, who do sound wonderful people? I think they were wonderful. And they were very much themselves. I see them very clearly in my mind. My mother was lower middle class, not well educated, left school at 14. She was shrewd. She was watchful. She was guarded. But she was also full of fun and a natural show-off, as I am, and wanted to be an actress. But that was not possible for a Jewish girl at that time. A nice Jewish girl could not do such a thing. She was an infinitely good businesswoman, and she was a social climber. So, when Dr Margulies joined the local Jewish tennis club, because at that time Jews were not allowed to, or not welcome at tennis clubs, she thought, aha, he's for me. And so she set out to get him, and she did, because she knew that a doctor's wife had status. And I think that's what my mother always longed for, was status. Was she in love with him, do you think? Not at the beginning. I think at the beginning she thought he was, you know, good-looking and nice, but I don't think she loved him. I don't think she was in love with him, but she grew to love him, and she certainly loved him for the whole of their married life. She adored him, but not at the beginning. At the beginning, it was her head, not her heart, that brought them together. My father was an altogether passive creature. I think he was educated. He was the first member of his family to go to university, and he read, he read books, but he was afraid. I think there was something about him that wasn't brave, whereas my mother was absolutely brave. And he always used to say if there was any difficulty, you know, business difficulty, or if he had an argument with anybody, he would always say, you speak, Ruth, you speak. And I used to hate that phrase, because it epitomized, for me, his smallness, his lack of courage. And Mummy would always do it. She was up there, she would do it. But he was quiet, completely honest. He always said to me, you know, you must never fudge your taxes. You must pay your taxes absolutely on the nail on the road, exactly what you have to pay. Do it. Never try and cheat. And I never have. I've always been I've always been super careful about taxes. And that was something my father culled into me. But they were loving to the point of suffocation. They were absolutely, they were, they adored me. And I adored them. I adore them still. They're still with me in every way that you can think of. I just can't hear my mother's voice, because she was struck with an awful, paralyzing stroke, which took away her speech for the last seven and a half years of her life. And I can't hear her voice. And that, to me, is really tragic. I can hear my father's voice, which was always Scottish. He had a Scottish accent, which he never lost. But I wish I could hear Mummy's voice. I can remember the things she said to me. One of her naughty, well, not naughty, but one of her sort of slightly silliest phrases was, MKB, Mummy Knows Best. And I've now adapted it to MKB, Miriam Knows Best. And there are no recordings of her voice, I suppose. No, there aren't. Sadly, there aren't. I wish there were. Does your confidence come from the love, do you think? Oh, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because from the minute I popped out, I, you know, they were married for 11 years before I was born, because my mother didn't want to have children. She was afraid. But from the moment I arrived, her whole life was dedicated to me, not to my father. And he must have been aware of that. But I don't think it was ever discussed. I mean, it was just obvious that Miriam was the centre of everything. And so I was never in doubt that I was adored. Never. And that does a lot to help a child. You know, I think that that's all a child needs, really, is total love. And I had unconditional love from my parents. And I always expected to be loved. I'm always surprised when I read, you know, people don't like me. And obviously, when you're in the public eye, you know, people have opinions. And I see those opinions. What was it today? Somebody wrote in on Facebook, what a vile hag she is. I thought, I thought, how odd. You don't know me. If you know me, you'd love me. I just think that. Why do people do that? Well, because I can see that there is a certain uncompromising nature here in me, that people find offensive. I mean, what? Oh, there's my cat. I must just let her in. Yes. Can you see her in the window? No, I'd like to. If you look into the window, you can see her. Come on, Lily. There you go. I put out some food for her in the back stable, and I'm just letting her go there. You go on. I've got two cats. I do. Are they affectionate? Oh, totally. They're frighteningly affectionate. We have one cat who we adore, but I've always wanted her to sort of drape herself around my shoulders, or sit on my lap, and she never does. She lies on my bed. Oh, they do? All the time. All the time. And what happens to them when you leave, Miriam? Well, we always either have somebody here to look after them, or we rent the place, and people, you know, people come and stay and look after them. They're never alone, ever. Good. They must miss you when you're gone. Well, they are in charge, somehow, so they make it perfectly clear to the people who come and stay. Who's that? No, they're all right. We should talk about money. Yes, well, do let... Your mum, I believe, was a very shrewd businesswoman. Yes, when they were bombed out of their house in East Ham, where they lived, my father was a doctor there, they came to Oxford because the car was being repaired there. And of course, in a second, my father lost his entire... Oh, she wants to come back in again. Okay. That's what she was indicating. I thought you were able to open the door. Come on. Come on. Yes. Come on. She's very... She likes to be cuddled in the morning. Oh. I'm back. Can you see me? I can't. Hello. I can hear you. I can't see you. Oh, have you gone? Yeah. Oh, gosh. I see. Hello. Isn't that funny? I can see an empty chair. There we are. Here we are. Is she coming to join us? They had to find... She's fine. They had to find an income because my father, you know, was a doctor and the practice was just destroyed and there's nothing left. So she looked about and she thought, what is it that Oxford needs? And she thought, well, they need... There are students here, so they need rooms. They need somewhere to live. So she started to buy houses. You know, first she bought a small house in Heddington, then she bought a bigger house in Heddington, and then she bought a house in North Oxford, and then another house in North Oxford. And in the end, she had a sort of stable of really nice houses and a very sort of a celebrity type list of tenants. Who did she have? Well, she had Lord Rothschild and Paul Betjeman and Francis Hope, the writer, and Robert MacLennan, the MP, and Rachel Billington. Oh, wow. MacLennan's daughter. And, yes, they were a goodly crowd of very, you know, nice people, nice students. And I was the cleaner. I used to have to go and clean the places before they took up residence. I don't like cleaning anymore. I don't do it anymore. I pay someone else to do it. But that was the foundation of her money, because her father was a second-hand furniture salesman, so he didn't have... You know, they weren't wealthy. They were quite poor, actually. But she made money. She knew how to make money. And that was where I got my love of houses, because I used to go looking at the houses with her, and she taught me, you know, how to tell if a house is a good house or not. How many houses do you own, Miriam? I own five. So the one you're in and one in London. I own one in London and a flat next door to the one in London, and this one, and one by the sea in England, and one in Australia. No, two. Two in Australia. How wonderful. So that's what you've... Yes, and I bought them because I loved them. I mean, I don't buy because I think they're good investments. I only buy a house if I love it. And I wish I'd bought one in Ireland, because I'm really mad about Ireland, and I don't own anything in Ireland. And I can't start buying houses now. It's not the right time of life. So I'll have to be content with my tally of five. Is money something that you've valued in your life? Does it motivate you? I'm not sure completely how much it motivates me, because, for example, I won't do anything with Piers Morgan, and he offered me a large sum of money. I think it was £50,000, and I wouldn't dream of having anything to do with him. You, on the other hand, I don't think, have offered me anything, and I'm doing it because I want to. So I'm not motivated by money, but I don't want to be taken for a ride. I mean, I remember I was offered a part in a day on a film in Hollywood, doing a bit with Barbara Slytherin. And they said, you know, we'll bring you, it was in a film called The Guilt Trip, with Seth Rogen. And they said, we'll, you know, we'll give you first class accommodation, first class fare both ways, and £1,000. I said, £1,000? You must be fucking joking. And I said to my agent, you know, ask for £25,000. And I got it. You know, and I should have probably got a lot more, but I just thought, you know, they must think I'm bored yesterday. I don't want to be taken for a ride. So I like money. And at the moment, one of the things I'm doing, which is entirely for money, actually, is called cameos. They're little, recorded on the telephone, on the iPhone, messages that people pay for, you know, birthday or pep talk or, you know, anniversaries and things like that. And they pay, people pay me, and I've got, for example, today, I've got 17. And let me just see how much, I think it's, I'm getting over £2,000. If I do 17 today, I'll get over £2,000. My goodness. And that seems to me to be an awful lot of money, but a lot of celebrities do it. And I didn't know anything about it. But it was Sylvester McCoy, who's a friend of mine, who was Doctor Who number seven. And he, he said to me, you know, he was talking into his phone one day, and I said, what are you doing? And he said, I'm doing a cameo. And I said, Oh, what's that? So he explained. And I said, Oh, I think I could do that. He said, Yeah, well, I'll put you up for it. So he introduced me to the, to the firm. And I now do it. And I'm one of their top earners. You know, since, in the two years since COVID kind of ruined our lives for us, I've made over £200,000. Oh, Miriam, that's amazing. Do you ever have to do anything, say anything strange? Or is it really only happy birthday? Or does anyone? Well, the difficult ones are when they say that their friend is dying of cancer, and could I sort of cheer them up? And that's hard. That's a hard thing to do. And the other thing people sometimes ask me to do is, is to roast them, which is an American term. And it means to sort of say, say awful things about them as a joke. I don't really like doing that. Because I don't like saying nasty things about people, even when I don't know them. But mostly it's birthdays and anniversaries. And sometimes people, if they're going in for an operation, they want a bit of a pep talk. And I do like doing that, because I think that makes, you know, that does cheer people up. But it's an extraordinary little sort of extra of money. You know, while I'm not doing anything, you know, I can do it on the loo or in the car park. I often do it in the car park. Very often. And you're writing another book? Yes. Is that because you've made so much money from your first book? Yeah, well, my publisher asked me to. And again, they paid me such an enormous amount of money that I couldn't say no. And I never thought that I would write a book in the first place. And then to write another book. I could hardly believe it. But I am. I am doing it. And it's going all right. Is it a secret? Well, obviously, it's about me and the people I know. And I'm doing a book tour in October. And I'm doing 23 cities, including, I think, um, well, I've got a sold-out night at the London Palladium. The London Palladium? I can't believe it. Amazing. It is amazing. Because I'm not a stand-up comic. You know, I'm a little old lady, and I hobble in on two sticks and sit in a chair. And I have an interlocutor with me. It changes every day, a different person. And I have wonderful people. I've had Joe Brand and Simon Callow and Julian Clary and, you know, really interesting people. So, and it's fun. I like an audience. I'm afraid I'm just honestly a transparent show-off. That is the only explanation. I want to come on to all of this later, and how much you must be enjoying or not these amazing latter years you're having. But while we're still on the subject of money, and you've managed, you know, not all actresses manage to support themselves handsomely. No, I know. And do you feel... I'm actually just standing for election to the Actors Benevolent Fund. I don't know if I've been elected yet, but I stood up for it because I think most, well, not all, but a lot of actors in their late life fall on hard times, you know. Well, who doesn't? I mean, many people do. But I like to be able to do something to help people. So I'm just very lucky, and I never would have expected it. I find it very hard to believe, actually. Because it didn't come easily straight away, you know. No, it didn't. Absolutely it didn't. It didn't come easily. And I'm amazed. I was often without work for a long time. But latterly, it's just sort of got better and better. I don't really understand it. But I don't question it. I just think, well, thanks up for that. Do you think it's about your authenticity, which is remarkable? You're so very much you, and maybe people respond to that. I mean, if you... Well, I suppose it must be. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what it is. I mean, because I've asked all my school friends and my college friends, you know, was I like this then? Am I like I was? And they say, yes, you're exactly the same. You're just the same as you always were. And I think, well, then how did it happen? But it did, you know, it did, and I'm very grateful for it. But I think it must be because I do say as it is. I tell it like it is. I'm not trying to hide or make myself out to be better than I am. I just respond instinctively to any situation or any person. And I think that the thing that I love, that of course is new to me now, is this documentary I started doing, well, I've been doing it for a few years now. And I think that people are prepared to answer my questions because they can see in my face that I won't hurt them. I'm not interested in digging people and probing and trying to expose people. I guess I want to get at the truth. I want to try to see the world from their eyes, not just from mine. And not to pass judgment. On the other hand, if I feel that I want to pass judgment, I will. I don't think you should have done that. Well, I don't think that's a good idea. But yeah, I think I am authentic. You certainly are. And have you, I mean, do you despair at a world in which money seems to be equated with happiness more than ever, or not particularly? I suspect it's always been like this. But what I don't like is unkindness. I think that's the thing that really upsets me and disgusts me. I like money. I mean, I like what money can bring. But I think if you only care about money, you're making a terrible mistake. Because money can't love you back. It's a one-way street with money. And people can love you back. So people must always come first. And I enjoy having more money now than I've ever had. I enjoy it. But I don't spend it in an insane way. And when I was in America, I have to say I've become, and I regret this, I've become rather anti-American. I see attitudes coming from America, which I dislike intensely. And I think one of them is their over-reliance on money. It's important. You have to earn it. It's good when you get it. But it isn't everything. It really isn't. You lived in Los Angeles for quite a long time. 16 years, yes. And was that a financial decision? Did you just go where the cash might be? Yes, I think it was. I won an award for Little Dorrit, a film I made in England, Sam's films, Christine Edgar directing. And I thought, well, if they're going to give an award, L.A. Critics Circle Best Supporting Actress. I shared it with Geneviève Bourgeon, who's a fine Canadian actress. And I thought, well, if they're going to give that, an award like that to a completely unknown, fat English woman, I better go and see what else I can get out of it. So I systematically prepared the way. And I got myself a publicist. I got onto the morning show, and I got onto the Johnny Carson show. And then I got a wonderful contract and a wonderful agent, Susan Smith, who's dead now, but she was a magnificent agent. And, you know, I made a very good living. And then one day Susan said to me, you know, you're not hot anymore. You've gone cold. And she was right. And so I went back to England and started again. Did you mind? Well, I did mind, because I thought, oh, well, does that mean I'm a failure? But I thought, no, I'm not really a failure, because I've done well here. But now I've stopped doing well, so I must try and do well somewhere else, the obvious place is England. I mean, I had the chance. I had the chance. I had several chances. Well, I had a television series, and it failed. I came out of it very well, but it failed, and it was taken off the air. And so then I went into films, and I did lots of films, and I was making quite a reputation for myself. But I wasn't the sort of success that, you know, Daniel Craig is or something like that. But I am content. I think I would like to be a more seriously regarded actress. That's the area that I feel a little bit disappointed in myself. I would like to be at the top end, and I think I'm in what I would call the front rank of the second rating. I would like to be in the first rating. There's still time, Miriam. There is. That's what I think. And I'm getting better and better, so I am improving. Is it like everything, that the more one does, the better you get at something? I suppose it is. I think the more opportunities as an actress you have, probably the better you get. If you are humble, if you are smug, you will never improve, because you think you're there already. Well, I know I'm not, so I know I will improve. I love your energy. I think it's wonderful. I wanted to, Susan Smith, who you mentioned before, this does lead us on to sex. She said, don't tell anybody you're a lesbian. And that was something not commercially viable to be. Not in those days. I mean, I'm talking about the late 80s, the early 90s. But, of course, I didn't heed her advice. I mean, I didn't tell people when I went in for an interview. But I, you know, all my friends knew, and generally speaking, people knew, because it was just too much fun. You know, it's fun being a lesbian, and you can't really hide it. I never could hide it, and I never did hide it. As soon as I discovered I was a lesbian, which was many years before, I talked about it. And, of course, I knew that I couldn't talk about it in a meeting. But if I was, you know, for example, when I went up for a job with Warren Beatty, and he said, do you fuck? And I said, no. And he said, well, actually, I said, yes, but not you. And he said, oh, why is that? And I said, because I'm a lesbian. And then he said, oh, can I watch? And I said, I put that in my book. And I said, don't be ridiculous. Now, get on with the interview. And I got the job. I mean, he was a broad-minded boy. Do you think he was just playing out a part, or do you think he actually meant? I think that, you know, he would ask every girl, do you fuck? And some would, and some wouldn't. Probably a good way of going about it. I think that was his method. There is a moment, Miriam, in your book, which really stands out. I found it very heartbreaking, and it was just after you'd fallen in love with Heather, who's still a great love of your life, and you're still very much together. And you went to Oxford to tell your parents, and they made you swear on the Torah that you would never have relations with another woman. Yes. It's extraordinary to me that my father, who was a doctor, and you would have thought that he had enough breadth in him, but his life was so narrow. You know, he'd always been in a very small circle of the world. He hadn't learnt anything, really. And so, you know, both my parents were deeply, deeply shocked. And I just thought, well, I better swear. And I knew I wouldn't even be able to keep it. Because when you're young, you know, you feel sexual urges. It's a very powerful urge. It's not something that you can just cancel. You can't do that. So I lied. I swore that I would never sleep with a woman again, knowing that I would. So I lied to my parents. But I wish I hadn't told them, because they were not able to deal with it. And it saddened them all the rest of their lives. And even when my mother couldn't talk, she would get hold of my arm, the one good arm that she had, the one grip in her hand, and say, get married, get married, get married, she said over and over again. Because that's what she had longed for, to have grandchildren, to see me, you know, married. And how, you know, she couldn't, she wouldn't have understood that I had all the happiness that I could possibly have with Heather. She wouldn't understand that. It didn't make them love you any less, though, I'm sure. I don't think they loved me less. No, they were disappointed. I had disappointed the two people whom I loved most in the world, except for Heather. No. Come on. Come on. I'll pick you up. Yes. Hello. Who's this one? This is Tilly. Tilly's beautiful. Oh, she's a dear. Oh, she loves to be cuddled. Yes, look. I'll turn around so you can see her face. Oh, she's lovely. What's happened to her? There we are. She's very sweet. She's very sweet. Did you, would you, if a young girl came to you today and said, I'm a lesbian, and I need to tell my parents, and I'm not sure they'll take it very well. What would you say to her? Well, I would say, work out why you want to tell them. Is it for you? Or is it for them? And think very, very carefully as to whether you will damage their joy in you, which is what I did. I damaged my parents' joy in me. And I wish I hadn't, because some people just can't take it. I mean, this is the problem about the gay world. It's now become quite a powerful world. It wasn't then. And I'm glad it's become powerful. I'm glad that people, you know, are accepted and have more confidence. And I've been to several Jewish gay weddings when the parents were there and were happy and understood. And that is a wonderful thing. But if they cannot, if it utterly shocks and depresses them, is it worth it? Is it worth ruining the happiness of people who care for you? Just, you know, grit your teeth and don't tell them. And I'm not, I mean, Ian McKellen, whom I'm extremely fond of, doesn't agree with it. He thinks that's shocking advice. But I'm afraid I do. You've witnessed huge change in your life in terms of attitudes to sex. Yes, I have. And I'm glad that there is change. I mean, you know, we human beings are kind of funny creatures because we should be very glad of sex and grateful to it because it's the way we continue as a species. And it's also huge fun. It's a wonderful thing. You know, you have a jolly good time having sex. And what a lucky thing it is that continuing as a species is something that we like doing. Imagine if it was horribly painful and miserable, having to procreate. It would be, you know, awful. But people get so, you know, worked up about it. I tend to see things a bit more simply than perhaps they are. And I just, I'm glad that we are an accepted group, that people realise that gender is not binary. It is much more complicated than that. And there is, as we have now learnt, a sort of spectrum, you know, along which there are all kinds of different ways of having sex and experiencing sex. And it should not be, one is not less than the other as long as nobody's hurt. I don't, you know, obviously, you shouldn't mess with kids. That's just awful because that's a power thing. It's not just about sex. But I just think we should let everybody get on with whatever they want to do, as long as it doesn't frighten the horses. That old way of describing it. It's interesting. Isn't she sweet? She's loving her hug. Then she's got up. She's angry. She thinks, I want some food. But she can't have it at the moment. She's had enough. Yes, well, I mean, you can, when I talk to Louis Theroux, he never stopped talking about it. He never got off the subject. And I was getting quite bored with it. And I think that's something that, it's very possible to get very bored with talking about sex. You either, you know, do it, or kind of shut up about it. I have to say, because sex is so much a part, I suppose, your potty mouth, for want of a better expression, has become so much a part of your public persona, which is, of course, not the real you. It is the real me, but it's just a part of the real me. There's a lot, there's a lot else to find. You know, it's not all there is. If it's all there is, I'd be deeply boring. Do you mind that? Do you mind that you've had to become somebody who Louis Theroux wants to talk to about sex? I can't mind it, because it's opened so many doors, rather than legs. But it just, I don't know, it just surprises me. I think sex is there for fun. It makes me laugh. I enjoy talking about it, up to a point. And it obviously makes for good copy. So I'm happy to provide that. It's just, there are other things, and there's another side to me, there's a more serious side. Sex isn't all of life, it's part of life, a very important part of life, a joyous part of life, a discovering part of life, but only part. And you have a very private, very fulfilling love at the root of your being. Yes. Yes, I'm unbelievably lucky that I found in my life so early, really, someone very different from me, entirely different, but someone who loved me, and whom I love. And I cannot tell you how much I value that, and how grateful I am. You know, we've been together for, well, since 1968. I think that's 54 years or something like that. Nearly 55. Yeah, that's a long time. That's an extraordinary thing. And to share your life, and your ideas, and your thoughts with someone whom you utterly trust. Utterly. I have been deeply blessed. And I'm just so bloody grateful. Do you miss her when you're not with her? Or does it quite suit you to not be together all the time? Well, when I'm working, I don't think either. We both work. We're both professional people. I mean, she's upstairs now, sleeping, because she doesn't sleep properly at night. And we have separate rooms. You know, we've always preferred to have separate rooms. And she is a professional woman. And I am a professional woman. And we do our jobs. And when we're doing our jobs, we're fully focused on our jobs. But when we're not on our jobs is when we're together. And, you know, she's with me here. And I love being with her. I love talking to her. We share many friends. We share interests. She recommends me the detective stories I should read. And we discuss politics. She's like me. She's on the left. And I don't think I could love anybody who wasn't on the left. It would be very, very hard. And she loves cats and travel and good literature and good music. So the whole of my life is taken care of, in a way. And I really value it. And I know how lucky I am, because many people never find a love like that. But I found it when I was 27. And I'm 81. How wonderful. And I am bloody lucky. You've had a whole life, Miriam, of being loved. It's an amazing thing. Yes, it is. It's an amazing thing. I am aware of my good fortune and dazed by it, really. Just dazed. Do you, it does bring us on to politics, because you said that Heather is left-leaning as you are. And I read such a, where is it? Sorry. I read a very brilliant quote in your book in which you said, I've become more political as I've got older. I haven't mellowed, I've billowed. I liked that. Yes, that was quite good writing. Well, yes, I mean, I can't understand how people can be right-wing. You know, when I think about Jacob Rees-Mogg, I think, what has made this monster, how can he be someone who sees the world in the terms that he sees it? How can he say to the people of Grenfell, who burned in their not-ivory tower, how can he say, you were unintelligent not to get out, when they had been told to get out? What allows him to see the world in those terms? I'm the same with all these eaten cunts. I just can't, I can't bear it. Now, Kim Silbey was not like that. He came, he was, he went to a public school when he went to Cambridge. But he was on the left, and his commitment to the left was so powerful that he became a traitor. And I don't know that I could go that far. It never happened. But I think that if you're, I think being right-wing is being a traitor to the human race. And I'd rather be a traitor to my country than a traitor to the human race. I do have to ask you about your Today programme bleeper, which was very funny. It was not meant to happen. I, you know, I was appalled by it, actually. I did not know that the microphone was up. And when my interview, which was about Robbie Goldshame, had finished, and I got up from my chair, I thought, then Justin Webb said, I bet you didn't think you were going to be sitting in the same chair as Jeremy Hunt. And I thought that he must have said that from a dead microphone. I couldn't believe that he would have, that would be part of his live interview with me. You see, I just assumed that the mic, that once that I had said, thank you, and stood up, that that was the end. And then they turned the mics down. I just assumed it. And I was wrong. It was live. And when I realised that, I honestly, I nearly died. I mean, I started shaking. I was so shocked. It wasn't at all deliberate, because I meant what I said. And I do think he's an absolute arsehole, and a dreadful person. But I would not have said it to his face. And I would not have said it on the radio, in the news. I mean, that, you know, for me, Radio 4 is a temple. Radio 4 is the best of England. The BBC, in the old Wesean sense, it's the best of what Britain has to offer, absolutely. And I was really embarrassed. I mean, the girl who was looking after me would tell you I was shaking. I had to be helped out of the studio. I was appalled. Oh, poor you. But it happened. And the producers were extremely nice about it. And because I, of course, wrote an apology, because I just felt dreadful. Dreadful. How anyone could ever think that I would say that on the radio? I might say it in the Graham Norton show, or something like that. That's different, because people know what's coming, you know, when they're expecting them. And I'd just been giving a sort of eulogy to Robbie Coltrane, whom I adored. So that was not one of my proudest moments, I can tell you. What if it had been Boris Johnson? Would you have said something to his face? Yes, I probably would have. I probably would have said something like, I think I'm going to go to the other end of the studio. I don't want to be defiled. I think I would have. But I wouldn't have said, you know, sort of cunts and fucks at him. No. I would have taken the high ground. Do you despair at the state of English politics? Yes. I'm in despair. I'm in despair for the world. I mean, look at America at the moment, what has happened there. With a respectable political party espousing paedophilia, paedophilia, that Jewish people are paedophiles and, you know, the QAnon and all these mad cults that they've made into the mainstream of the party. I think it's terrifying. Putin, you know, somebody asked me, what were the five people that I hated most in the world? And I said, Putin, Boris Johnson, David Cameron, Nigel Farage, and Benjamin Netanyahu. They are wicked people. Brexit was horrifying to you. I can't tell you how. I felt cut in two. I'm really, really shocked at what Brexit's done. To England, to families, and to my life, because I wanted to be able to come and go, as I have always been able to, in this house that we bought in 1973. How dare they do that? How dare they lie to the English nation that they were going to fund the National Health Service if we got out of the EU? I mean, lie. And they knew it. I just can't even begin to express what I feel about that. Brexit is something completely wicked. I will never forgive them. I will never get over it. I am outraged and insulted and furious. And I think Boris Johnson is a deeply disgusting human being. And he's still not gone. No. No, he hasn't gone. And he doesn't intend to go. He's going to go around the world making a fortune, spewing more lies. He's not even a very good speaker. No. I know. I can't cope with all that. That's disgusting. And you do, you are 81, as you say. Do you wish that you could live to see what's going to happen? Or do you think actually, like Eileen Atkins, who I spoke to the other day, who said actually... She's fabulous. Isn't she? She's wonderful. She's my goddess. She's my goddess. I'm quite friendly with Eileen. And I just love her. I know. I adore her. I've never spoken to anybody who made more sense about everything than she did. She was just amazing. Amazing. So clever. She is. She's gorgeous. And she's 88 and like a 14-year-old. 88? It's amazing. Well, you asked me, did I want to, as it were, go on and find out what's going to happen? Yes. But I am disabled now. I can't walk. I'm crippled with a condition called spinal stenosis. And, you know, walking is painful. And I have... Life is a struggle. It's a struggle to go upstairs here and to do things. But I will not be stopped. So the only thing that will stop me is death. And I hope that I live as long as possible. That's all I can say. I miss my friends that have died. A lot of friends have died recently. And I do miss them very much. I mean, I hope you notice in my book how big a portion of that is about my friends. Because they're very important to you. One of the reviews that I read on Amazon said, I couldn't stand this woman. I couldn't stand her book. It was all about her. Me, me, me. That really made me laugh. And I thought, well, you could have guessed it might be because it's an autobiography. Did you reply to the review? I think you can. No, but I think I put it on Facebook. I thought it was so funny. Do you... You have written in the book about a terror, I think you describe it, of dying. Yes, I'm not very grown up about dying. I think I am scared. I'm possibly slightly less scared since I did a documentary on it. But it is the big unknown. And I don't know what it's going to be like. I can't tell you. You just have to deal with it when it happens. And you have no belief in an afterlife, which I suppose is... I don't. I mean, my lovely therapist, Margaret Branch said, she said, I think it could be a party. We could be having a wonderful party. And we see all the people we've missed and we can reconnect with. And that's what I think is going to happen. So she had a very optimistic view. I don't think there is going to be a party. There is just going to be nothing. And I can't quite imagine what that's going to be like. But it'll happen. It's the one thing that we can all be sure of. Boris Johnson, as well as me, we will die. And I hope I do it with dignity. I hope I do it gracefully. I don't want to die sort of screaming and swearing and dribbling and urinating and shitting, you know. I hope that all my bodily fluids are under control. And you still have so much to do, Miriam. Yes, I have. I do. I've got a full program this year. Lots of things culminating at the end of the year in a film in New Zealand with Julie Davis and Joanna Scanlon. Oh, wow. So that's really something to look forward to. Is it a serious role? Yes. Yes, it is. This could be your moment. Well, I think it'll be one of my moments. It could be. No, I'm looking forward to it because I love Joanna Scanlon and Julie Davis is one of my absolute favourite actresses in the world. Yes, me too. I've never met her. And I think she could easily not like me, you know, because she's quite fierce. But it will be a delight to work with her. And that's in New Zealand, is it? In New Zealand. Fantastic. So life's pretty good fun. Yes, it is. It really is. I'm fucking lucky. I'll make it out. Yeah, but you're also living proof that you get out what you put in. I can say that. You wouldn't say that yourself, but I'm sure there's a truth in that. Well, I don't know. I mean, it is honestly luck. There's a lot of luck in it. And that's what I have to tell people, you know, young people who ask me, how can I get on in the business? I say, darling, I don't know. I don't know a surefire way. But go to the Edinburgh Festival. My mum was a casting director and I said to her... Oh, was she? Yes. Celestia Fox. Your mum is Celestia? Yes. She lived round the corner from me. She did. I grew up opposite the church on Trapham Common. Is she still alive? Yes, very much so. Oh, give her my love. I think she's adorable. Yes, she is. Adorable isn't a word many people would use. Oh, she's wonderful. She's very wonderful. She's very, very wonderful. Yeah, I always liked her a lot. I don't think she ever cast me in anything. I can't remember, but I know I always liked her and thought she was really good value. Highly intelligent. Highly intelligent and brilliant. And said to me, I said, I think I'd like to be an actress. I wasn't bad. I'd like to be an actress. And she said, do you want to do it so much you'll die if you don't do it? And I said, no. And she said, don't bother then. It has to be your absolutely everything, doesn't it? Yes, I think that's true. What sort of background did she come from? English upper class nanny in a nursery. Ponies. She rebelled against convention. And. Well, she was born in 1947, so she was a different generation to her older brothers and sisters. And so she just peaked in the 60s, I suppose. And she was very glamorous and married my dad, who was very glamorous. And they got lost in showbiz, but it broke their marriage. I mean, I think being act, you know. Being in the world you've been in and having a happy, sustained relationship isn't easy, actually, I don't think. Well, I went to the Oxford High School, and I think if you go to the Oxford High School, you've got a very good grounding. And I consider that, you know, with my family background and my Oxford High School and then Cambridge, I've had an insight into the world that's nothing to do with showbiz. And that's where I get my real jollies from, the world outside showbiz. I completely forgot to talk to you about your friend Liz, who politicized you. Oh, well, I've missed that. Oh, she's wonderful. We have a Zoom group with old Newnham friends. And because one of the reasons why I think people enjoy my body mouth is because it's delivered with such cut glass English. Because my voice is an Oxford High School voice, and all my friends talk like this. It is lovely, your voice. You've made good money from your voice. I have. It's been a tidy little earner. It really has. Oh, I'm so pleased to hear of Celestia. I really always liked her because she lived next door to my agent, Lindy King. Yes, Lindy's my mother-in-law. You won't believe it. Is she? I'm married to Lindy's son. Oh, how lovely. Yes. Well, she's a darling. She's the biggest darling of them all. She's absolutely adorable. I know. And so supportive and so understanding. I mean, she understands me, Linda. Yeah. And she really is exceptional. Yeah. Oh, how interesting. So did you go to St Paul's? No, I went to St Mary's Cairn in Wiltshire. Oh, is that in Wiltshire? Yeah. My parents got divorced in a horrible, acrimonious way, and they thought it would be better if I was at boarding school and knew nothing about it. But of course, you still get the Daily Mail in Cairn. And I had a housemistress who used to come in and say, we've removed this because he'd run off with an actress. She'd say, they'd say, we've removed this so nobody else can see it, but we thought you might like to see it and would show me the sort of splash in the Daily Mail. So I hated boarding school, but I did get a very good education. It was very academic, and I value that hugely. And where did you go to university? I went to Edinburgh University. I failed to get into Oxford. I had an interview at Balliol where the professor said to me, why are you wearing trousers? And I said, well, because it's quite cold. And he said, how do you think a girl like you will get into a college like this unless it's on the strength of her legs? Which I think was my cue to go into a sort of Mary Wollstonecraft feminist diatribe. But of course, I just froze. Anyway, that's probably not the only reason. But I didn't get in. So I went to Edinburgh. Well, who was he? What professor was that? I don't know. There were four men. I know they must have been the English dons at Balliol. He was terribly old. He'd be long dead now. But that should be known. I know. It's shocking, isn't it? Shocking. But I do think... You must find out who he is. I know. I must. I'm so traumatized by the whole experience that I've never done anything about it. But now I suppose people would love that story, wouldn't they? Oh, my God. I will certainly use it. I will always say who from. Yeah. I must find out. Well, he must have been the head of English at Balliol, I suppose. In what year? 1993. I'm 46. Yes. Or 94. Have you got children? I have three children. Wow. I must show you a photo. Look. That's Lindy. Can you see? That's Lindy with my... Yes, I can. ...eldest son, who's now 17. I have a 17-year-old son and two girls who are 14 and 10. And where are they being educated? Well, I'm afraid they're being state-educated because I can't possibly afford the fees. He's at a grammar school in Salisbury, and the girls are at a local state school, which, touch wood, is rather lovely. But it's not Oxford High. And what does your husband do? He was a photographer, and now he runs a brilliant company called Mud and Guts, which is an outward-bound company with children. He's the most brilliant... Oh, how lovely. He's a wonderful human being, and children absolutely worship him. He has a great knowledge of nature, and he's brilliant with children. So that's his business. He goes all around doing that. And where do you live? We live in Wiltshire, near Salisbury. So you didn't move far from St Mary's Calm, then? No. Although Wiltshire's huge, and the other... It's enormous. And I don't go near Cairn if I can possibly help it, because I get PTSD. Yes, I can imagine that. I was very lucky, again, with my school and my school friends. And so tell me, Zoe, am I like what you expected? Do you know, I said to Jamie this morning, I said, the thing that I really sense about Miriam is that she's much more serious than sometimes your public persona might lead one... Not that you ever don't appear serious, but I said, I really hope, because I listened to Louis Theroux yesterday, and I had heard it before, and I said, I really hope she won't mind if we don't just do the fun stuff all the time. So I'm... No, I get that. I've enjoyed our conversation, and thank you for asking me such interesting and thoughtful questions. That's what I like. I mean, I don't want to be this sort of silly, farty doll all the time. I don't want that. Am I not? No, you're not. When I go on the Graham Norton show, I have another thing to do. That's another string to my bow. And I enjoy it hugely, and I have great fun. And he's very kind to me. He's so brilliant. Isn't he such a clever boy? What a kind boy. He's just lovely. So I'm very grateful to him, because I think he's made me better known. I'm on this thing called TikTok. You know what that is? Yeah. Well, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know about TikTok. And I was just amazed that I'm on that... What do you call it? Program, I think, or website or something like that. Anyway, lots of young people know me as a result. So I have a very much wider spread of audience than you can imagine. All of my children, who don't tend to engage with who I might or might not be speaking to, were all absolutely delighted I'd be speaking to you. They all know you, but I suppose mainly from... You won't like it, but mainly from Harry Potter, I suppose. Oh, of course, of course. And that must be very... This is the first time we've mentioned Harry Potter in the whole interview. On purpose. I remember talking to Maggie Smith, not for an interview, just in person the other day, and she says she can't barely leave the house because of it. She says it's an absolute nightmare, and she wishes she'd never done it. Off the record. Yes, I can imagine. I'd love to see Maggie again. I haven't seen her for ages. You know, you should, Miriam, because I think she's very lonely. I think she is, too. I've thought that for some time, and she did say to me, she says, I'm very lonely. Why don't you ring me and come around? And I thought, well, why don't I? But is she in London or is she in Sussex at the moment? Do you know? I don't know. I don't know, actually. I'll ask Lindy. Lindy is my go-between on that sort of thing. Yeah, I think she's not as warm as you, which must make it... It must make it... People are more wary, maybe, of her, but I think... Yes, no, she isn't. She's not a... She's not a warm person, and you do feel slightly on your guard when you're with her, because she is capable of hurting. Yes. There's so much that's wonderful about her. And as you probably know, we were at the same school, although she's a bit older than me. Of course you were. But she hated the school, and I loved it. Just funny. You'll laugh. In my interview with Eileen, and I think Maggie and Judy had both come up, and we were talking about the fact she hadn't had children, and had sort of consciously chosen not to have children. And I had to cut this out, because she said, I've never met an actress, a single actress, who was a good mother. And she said, I think all actresses should be spayed. Which I thought was so funny. I did cut it out. But those two were also an example of how great actresses can't be great mothers. No, I think actually Judy does a bloody good job with Dinty. I think he's very happy with Judy now. But I don't think... I don't know what Maggie's like with her children, because I've never met them. I don't know them. No. Well... Well, you must ring her anyway, Miriam, and thank you. I will. Thank you so, so, so much for doing this. I've enjoyed it. I hope you've enjoyed it. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Would you like me to send it to you before it goes out, so you can have a listen? No, no. I mean, we haven't said anything too problematic. No, no. Nothing I wouldn't face before my parents. Nothing. Well, it's absolutely lovely to see you. Thank you so much. It's a great pleasure, and I hope that we will meet one day, probably at Lindy's place. Exactly. With that hilarious, that funny gardener. What's his name? Marcos. He's always doing demented things at Lindy's house. I love him. There's a sort of cabbage in a pot sometimes on the way up to the front door. He's very special. I think he might have caused the whole railing thing to come down. I think he might. But I haven't gone there. I haven't ventured to talk about that with him. No, nobody has, but the insurance company didn't pay out, which might have been something to do. I know, and that really, I think Lindy took that amazingly well. She did. She's a class act. She is, and she's getting 10% of all sorts of people's very successful careers, so luckily. Probably doesn't get 10% of your cameos. Um, I don't know. She shouldn't. I'd never find out about that. Oh, no, she doesn't get you the cameos, so she shouldn't. No, no, I don't think she probably cares about that. God, I wish I could make two grand today. Aren't you lucky? I am, darling. I do know that. That's great. I'd love to, well, must think of someone you can do a cameo for. I know lots of people who'd like one. I wouldn't want one on my deathbed, I don't think, but I'm not sure I'd want a cameo from anyone on my deathbed. No, I think that's a more private area. But you've had to do people dying of cancer. Yeah. Gosh. And that, and what I really am pleased about is that I've had, when people have particularly liked what you've done, they give you a five-star review, which they send to you, and I've had several from people who've been very, very ill. And that pleases me. That does please me. Well, you create an awful lot of positive energy, and that's a wonderful thing. The world needs more of you, Miriam. Thank you for saying that. That's delightful. No, it's true. I'm very, very pleased. I hope you have a lovely day. I will. I hope Heather wakes up at some point. She will. Thank you very much for this, Chloe. Thank you. My very best wishes. We will one day meet, I promise. We will, definitely, definitely. Thank you. Bye, Miriam. Bye, darling. Bye-bye.