2nd episode

In this conversation, the hosts discuss the difference between character-disturbed and neurotic individuals. They also talk about the role of mothers in parenting and how it can affect their children. They mention covert and overt character disturbance in moms and how it can manifest in different ways. They emphasize the importance of holding mothers accountable for their actions, but also acknowledge the complexity of the mother-child relationship. The hosts emphasize that children do not owe their parents anything and that a healthy relationship should be based on love and mutual respect. We didn't get any of that. Oh, fine. Perfect. We'll start again. Welcome back. This is Couches for Cocktails. I'm Keri, I'm your therapist. And I'm Ashley, your best friend. Just a little unhinged. Who isn't? So if you're new here, we do conversations from a therapist's perspective and a best friend's perspective because I think it's important to know the difference. Yeah, and I think sometimes you need a little bit of blunt tough love, whereas your therapist can give you tough love, but maybe it's not as tough and not as blunt. And so today we're going to talk a little bit about parents who disturb moms. But before we get into that, we are going to talk a little bit about definitions. Yes, because people like to self-diagnose and diagnose others right now. It's very a hot trend on social platforms to use terms we've learned in therapy without having the background or knowledge to be able to use those terms correctly. Pop, culture, and psychology. Yes. So let's start with what's the difference between character-disturbed and its counterpart. So I'll put this into people that I like to see. So character-disturbed are my least favorite kind of clients because they are typically not so great human beings who think that they are pretty great human beings, and so I have to dismantle that narrative and then have to show them how their behavior is problematic and then show them what they can do better. Whereas their counterparts are the neurotic people, which are my fave people because they are people that are such wonderful human beings but don't think that they are. Okay. And it's way easier to just be like, hey, there's a mountain of evidence in your life. Just look at it. So people who are character-disturbed are going to be the people who have narcissism, borderline personality, what's some other ones? Antisocial, histrionic. Can you have antisocial and also be neurotic? So you can have an antisocial-type personality without having the disorder and being neurotic, yes. But if you were truly an antisocial personality disorder person, no. Okay. So moving forward, let's talk about moms. And the reason why we're not really picking on dads is because men get a lot of attention, but also the world we live in gives women daddy issues. And I think that they're easier to spot and they're easier to write off. Yeah, but let me get on the soapbox for, like, two seconds. The lack of scientific data and evidence that shows daddy issues contribute to unwell women is disturbing because it's been such a pervasive excuse or, like, oh, you should date a girl that's got daddy issues because she's, like, super fun. No. Parental issues, abandonment issues, yes, we've got evidence for that in spades of what that does to a human being. But specifically, like, fathers to daughters, the psychological scientific data is almost non-existent. That's fair. But they get a lot of the blame, whereas mothers are also participating, and that's, I think, maybe where we're getting. Like, dads specifically don't have it. It's parental, but dads are the ones who get blamed a little. Specifically for the female issues, not necessarily for the male, and that also is a problem. But for today, let's dissect very specifically your relationship with your mom. Not mine specifically, but in general. Yes, yes, in general. And we're going to break down the difference between covert character disturbance and overt character disturbance, because I think a lot of people will get into these situations where they have a mom that's like, I was a great mom. I provided for you. I sacrificed for you. I did these things for you. And they're like, yeah, so I have a really good mom, but I don't know why I feel so gross around her. That's a covert abuse, babe. That is under the table. Yeah. So there's a power exchange that happens in a lot of child-to-mother dynamics, especially, like, I'm a millennial. Erie is millennial. So older generations to ‑‑ Did you just say older? We're not older generations. No, no, no, older than us. Oh, okay. I'm young and hip and cool, not like a regular millennial. I'm a cool millennial. I think I'm considered an elder millennial. Oh, well, yeah, we're not going to use the word elder in reference to ourselves. Yeah, so our generation was raised by boomers, Gen X, who, look, guys, we get it. They probably didn't have great emotional support, emotionally supportive parents. Oh, no, no, no, no. They were 100%, like, being raised from the 1950s, children are meant to be seen and not heard. Right. Respect me because I'm your elder, and that should be enough. Respect is earned, not given. Which we can unpack. That's not a true statement. So we can see, and I think this is where a lot of children, especially our age, because a lot of millennials are doing that work. We're going to therapy. We're doing the introspection. We're questioning why we do the things we do, why other people do what they do, and how we can do better. So we can see why our parents are the way that they are. We can see it from a distance. But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of our parents have put us in power exchange dynamics. Specifically moms. Yes, specifically moms. Where maybe she didn't receive the emotional support, the love, the attention from her parents, and so maybe she puts that onto her children because those are easier individuals to control. They're in her house. They're under her control. Well, and there's the stuff, unconditionally love her, right? Because she gave them life. Right. That topic comes up in my room so often. But she's my mom. But she brought me into this world. And her life was really hard, and she did a lot for me. She sacrificed and she gave so that I could have the life that I have. Where'd the wine bottle go? Hmm? Where'd the wine bottle go? It's in the fridge. Oh. Pause. Okay, we're back. I refilled my wine and we had some lunch. So we can empathize a lot with our moms and then still realize that her behaviors have maybe led to some of our people-pleasing or our perfectionism or our kind of constant need for approval without ever feeling like it's ever justified. Or without feeling like it's ever enough. Yeah. So I think the big thing that I run into in therapy especially is people coming in, women coming in, and saying, like, I love my mom. Our relationship's kind of weird. But, like, she's my mom. And the problem that I struggle with the most is being like, listen, like, I'm not trying to blame your mom for everything that's gone wrong in your life because that's just not fair. We can't blame one human for that. But I do need to, like, have her hold the things that she's accountable for and I need you to have her hold the things that she's accountable for. The hardest thing for me to do is to, like, listen to somebody's story and have them be like, but, like, she was being really fair. Like, she was doing this. And for me to be like, no, that was emotional abuse. Yeah. And those are the covert character disturbed moms. The ones that, like, depending on the person you ask and depending on their life experiences, they're going to be like, oh, I don't know, maybe she was just having a bad day. Yeah, like, I have a really great mom. She would never, like, hurt me or, like, intentionally be malicious or anything like that. But if anyone in your family hurts her feelings, everyone in the family deals with the repercussions of her feelings being hurt. Right. And then there is the overt narcissism. Those are the ones where you're like, oh, she's a bad mom. Yeah. Right. Those are the overt narcissistic moms. And here's the thing. Narcissism between males and females, it's tricky. It's different. Yeah. I'm going to say stage moms, moms who live vicariously through their children's success, absolute. 100%. Right. And, again, I'm not saying that your mom is the worst narcissist there's ever been. But is she living her life through you with the expectation that you meet her expectations and milestones so that she can feel good? And it's not even just so she can feel good. It's so that way she can receive praise for being such a good mother that she raised a kid like you. Like, all of your successes, all of your accomplishments, they're not yours. They're hers. And all of your failures are yours. They're not hers. Yeah. And then you have moms who, I'm a really good mom. I've done a lot for you. How dare you? How dare you, moms? Because, God forbid, you dare. I brought you into this world and I can take you out. Yeah. Those moms. Don't forget who you're messing with, moms. You're only here because of me. The second you do something to displease her, she brings up everything that she's ever had to do in life because it was clearly all for you and how dare you. I literally had a client tell me their mother presented them with an invoice when they turned 18, and she had kept track of every penny that she had spent to mother that child and expected to be repaid in full, up to including her hospital delivery bill. And as a mom and as your best friend, I can tell you I chose to have my daughter. I love her with every iota of my being. Absolutely. I am grateful to have her, and at no point would she ever need to repay me. She didn't ask to be born. Exactly. My daughter owes me nothing. Literally nothing. My goal in the first 18 years of her life is to raise a competent, compassionate, creative human being who will go out in the world and do life well, but also to be a good enough human being that she wants to come back and spend time with me. Like, she does not owe that to me. I don't expect her to go off into the world and then like, oh, you know what? She was my mom. She raised me. Like, I definitely should go visit. No. I want her to come visit. I want her to come visit.