Enhanced Interview with Teresa Hammond and Theodora Rutherford 11 Jun 1992

Theresa Hammond, a professor at Boston College, is conducting a study on black CPAs. She contacts Theodore Rutherford to discuss their research and mentions a book they have interviewed people for. They also talk about Theresa's family moving from Louisiana to Houston due to racial discrimination. Theodore asks about Theresa's family history and they discuss her education, including attending Howard University and Columbia University. They also mention the challenges faced by black individuals during that time. Theresa talks about her work experience in New York and the support she received from a man at Spelman & Morton. Hello? Good morning, this is Theresa Hammond calling from Boston College. Is Theodore... I can't hear you. I'm sorry. Wait a minute, I got the TV on, that's your phone. Oh. What did you say? My name is Theresa Hammond and I'm a professor at Boston College. And I'm looking for Theodore Rutherford. Yeah. Is it she? Yeah. Hi. Denise Treter, I think, contacted you a couple years ago about the study she was doing on the first 100 black CPAs in the country. Yeah. And we are, Denise and I, are now doing a little further study in order to attract a little more attention to the issue of blacks in accounting. And so what we've done is we've interviewed a selected group of people who were in this original book. Yeah. Did you get a copy of the book? No. Oh, you never did? Uh-uh. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't think so. No, I'll pass it on. No, I'll... That's one... For some reason, we had a little trouble getting books to everybody. I want to... Let me make sure we have the right address for you, okay? Yeah, uh-huh. Is it Box 396? 365. Ah. Well, that might be it. Yes, that might be. 369 Institute, West Virginia? Yeah, because I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. 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I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. I'll post my book. That's interesting. How did your family move from Louisiana to Houston? Well, my mother was determined. I didn't ever live from Louisiana to Houston. There was that terrible, we had some terrible experience in Louisiana with my family. Could you tell me about it? Yeah, I can tell you about it. I mean, I know it's maybe painful, but... My mother was, are you married? No. No. That's not about being from there, no. No. Sorry, I've been there. Yeah, but you haven't been in this little town. No, no, no, I just... You've been in a very small town there. Gennaraton, is that right? Yeah. Well, you must have something about me. I have the survey you filled out. Oh. Oh, I remember that. So you filled out a survey, and it was so interesting, we just wanted to ask some of the details. And a doctor came to that little town, a black doctor. He had to get his permission from every place, anything in town who could make me medical, which he did. But he was progressive for that, you know, period. And he started talking to the children about health and getting people well who had not been treated properly, I guess. Because I was only seven years old then. And one night he came to our house, and he was out at a health meeting. And we had a district down in town, they specialized in oysters. Because I learned to count because my father would let me... He opened oysters, and every ten I had to know the number, you see. And he broke our door down because the man wasn't there. And my mother was a very spooky woman. She told the waitress to open the door, but they wouldn't let her. So they came in and made that man leave that night. And they did some ugly talking about the black girl she had there because the man wasn't there. And the girl was very attractive. And my mother thought that she'd get a notice from the country to educate them there. Was your mother a teacher? She had been a teacher, but graduated from a normal school. But a normal school, there was nothing, you know. I mean, educationally. But she had ambition. And my father did too, but my mother was really the driving force. And after they did that bad thing, she started to pack. That's how we left and got to Houston. Now, did your dad own that restaurant? Yes. And did you just abandon it? Did you just leave it there? Yes. My mother said she would not stay there another day. So she said, the way they talked about those girls, she said, I was going to grow up there. Right. And if that's the way they felt about black girls, she didn't want me there. Was it a violent confrontation or was it just, was it a... It was violent because they knew my father had known him from childhood. Oh. And that's how he was born at that time. Uh-huh. But, uh... But they threatened? No, they just threatened to talk to him. Yeah. And ask him, could he take the first train out? He had a little Ford car, which I remember to this day. Uh-huh. Asked him what about his car. They said, well, you get in that car and go now. Uh-huh. And they sent him out of that town that night. Wow. And one thing I always remember, I tell everything, no matter how tragic, has ever been a musical, my mother had loaned him a book. But he just never got it. Until the day she died, he talked about Dr. White having her book. What year did she die? I think it was about nine years later. It was just out of the boat. I can't remember the exact date, but it was about 1925. Uh-huh. I think. Did you have any older brothers or sisters? I had one younger brother. Uh-huh. He's been dead some years now. But you have children and... I have a child. I lost my husband and my daughter and my granddaughter the same year. Oh, how terrible. So I have been alone for many years. Oh, that's terrible. And I packed it up until two years ago. You did? Yeah. So I had to have the hip transplant removed. I decided, well, time for me to quit anyway. It was a hip replacement? Uh-huh. Did you have to have it replaced or... And it wasn't a good job. That's the reason I went back to Washington. I didn't have to one doctor. I was going back to another. Wow. I hope it works out better this time. I hope so, too. I would have been practicing now. Yeah. Somebody called me yesterday. I was, yeah, I'm very surprised to hear that you were practicing up until two years ago. Right. 1904, so you're 80, what, 88 years old? 88 now. Yeah, that's marvelous. Well, I felt good. I still feel good except for my hip. Uh-huh. And I was alone and wanted to restart the practice. I had times I had to, I started. Yeah, that's just small businesses or individuals or did you do tax returns or... All kinds. Small businesses, supermarkets, and some white people. Some white people, huh? Oh, yeah. I guess my most lucrative cloud were white people. Uh-huh. But I've had a long time. Someone called me yesterday. She was a black businesswoman, you know, and heard of me. Uh-huh. Oh, she phoned you just to see if you would do some work for her? Yeah. That's great. I don't know. In fact, I told her I practiced three years ago. Is your practice an institute? Yes. When I built a house here about 30 years ago, 35 years ago, I built the opposite because I didn't get reception from white economists here. Uh-huh. Well, I think I should have gotten because there were not that many CPAs when I started. Uh-huh. Now, it's getting less for business. Right. You were the first black CPA in West Virginia. Yeah, I'm almost through with one now. Yeah. I think there's maybe four that I know of, three that I definitely know of. Did one of them buy your practice? No. I took one in which I didn't take. He was a drug addict. Oh, no. So I put him out long before I, well, a year before I stopped anyway because, well, I was so enthusiastic about having a black CPA. Right. I said, you know, I'm supposed to be different and everything. Uh-huh. And then I found out what he wants. I had to get him out real quick because he was going to do things that would, well, he approached a white girl sexually. Uh-huh. They could have gotten everything I had. You know, because what I had was an apartment and everything. So I got rid of that real quick. Yeah, really? So you went back to sole proprietorship? Yeah. Uh-huh. But I was in great trouble because we never could find a Negro, you see, in West Virginia. Yeah. I had one young man, well, I think, but he became a CPA. He was, uh, he worked for the state of West Virginia in a very profitable position. Uh-huh. So I feel very satisfied about him. Was he one of your students? Yes. Uh-huh. He was one of my students. I had 22 white students became CPAs, I think, through my influence. Uh-huh. And I taught them. You should be proud of that. Very. Yeah. Because three of them, well, they say that it had not been for me. They would not be where they are. Yeah. That's great. I think I did a good job as a CPA. Yes, I think so, too. I'm extremely impressed just by the little bit I know about you. I'm very impressed. Well, first as a teacher and with the work I did. Uh-huh. I'm sure. How did you end up going to Howard? When my mother had wanted to go to Oberlin, and when – listen, I knew when I – before I could talk, I was going to go. Because of your mother. Yeah. Why didn't she get to go to Oberlin? Because I didn't like messing up. And she wouldn't send me to school where they wore uniforms, and at that time, Oberlin wore uniforms. Now, you said – I didn't know that – you said that she had wanted to go to – she wanted you to go to Oberlin, or did she want to go to Oberlin herself? I didn't know about Oberlin. I see. She wanted – she considered Oberlin as one of the places she was going to send me. I see. But she wanted me to go where people like to dress and do things for. Uh-huh. Now, that sounds like a stupid reason, but it wasn't her. No, no, no. And that's where I went to Howard. Did you know anybody at Howard when you got there? No. Made some best friends of my life there. Okay. I'll tell you what, there was a girl – not a girl now, of course – but from Houston, went to Howard. Uh-huh. And she influenced me really to go to Howard. Uh-huh. Became a doctor, and was a doctor for – I had three good friends in Howard, and they were all in the medical profession. Huh. They're all dead now, but I love how I lived my time. Well, that's a – the school has certainly produced a lot of the black professionals, certainly, especially at the time you went. Yeah. Most black professionals went to Howard because they couldn't go to the white school. Uh-huh. What did your parents do in Houston, by the way? Did they start another restaurant, or? No, they – well, what would you call catering? Uh-huh. My father stayed in Louisiana because, well, he was not as resistant to the insults. He came to Houston and tried, but he couldn't. Well, he'd been in the oyster business, you know, and Houston was not – and they ran this – they specialized in these oyster rolls. Uh-huh. And that wasn't – and he didn't really do well with that, so he went back to Louisiana. Did your brother stay in Houston? Oh, you mean last – no, my brother came to Washington – first he came here. Uh-huh. And then from here he went to Washington. Oh, did he go to Howard, too? No, he was a young man when he went to Howard. He went to my club there. Oh. Well, that's – so how did you decide to go to Columbia, then? I got a scholarship. Yeah, you were still in the cum laude, right? Uh-huh. You graduated at the top of your class at Howard. Yes. And how did you get that scholarship? I had – he solicited a scholarship for me. Uh-huh. But my father died nine days after I finished college. Uh-huh. They never had a lot of money. Uh-huh. And so they – and then, I don't know, graduate school went – it wasn't so much – they weren't pressed on you, you know. Well, going to college was quite an accomplishment. Well, I guess so, but it didn't seem to me that way, you see. Uh-huh. Well, you were 19 or something, huh, when you graduated? I was 19. Oh. So that's – And so he got me the scholarship at Columbia. Uh-huh. Got one at Howard, too. Uh-huh. But I felt I could earn extra money in New York easier than I could in Boston. So I went to Columbia. Well, did he have contacts up here, or – He was a pitcher. Uh-huh. I don't know what he had in contact, and I know he was just interested in me and education. Yeah. And interested in my being what I was, I guess. Well, because you were such a good student, I'm sure. Well, I was then. I'll have to say then. I mean, I think I can say it now. Sure. Of course you can. I think that's just very – it's wonderful. So he helped you get the scholarships, and you went to Columbia to – Had you majored in accounting at Howard? Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. And at Columbia, I had some, I thought, unique experiences. One was that when I got to Columbia to register, everybody knew who I was before I told them my name. Were you the only black woman there? Yeah. Uh-huh. I think there were only two blacks. Were they – I'm reasonably sure, although I never pursued it, I was the first black woman to get a master's degree in business from Columbia. I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if you were, but I don't know either. I never pursued that. But there weren't any there with me. There was one black boy, a man. Uh-huh. And – Were people friendly? Well, yes and no. Uh-huh. Some teachers were friendly. Uh-huh. But I never – I guess these are things that have stayed in me all along, because I don't know that I've talked about them to anybody. There were two girls in a class with me that I helped. Uh-huh. But, because you couldn't go to restaurants and things in New York, there wasn't anyone you could ask out. Sure. We would work on Saturdays, extra work. Uh-huh. But I remember after it, when lunchtime came, they'd always excuse themselves. Uh-huh. Well, they went out to get lunch, and they didn't want to – well, they couldn't take me to this one, I guess. But I found out a year ago. Anyway, I stopped there. Yeah. Honey, listen, you don't know what things were suffered by black people at that time. No, I know. I don't. And it's good and it's bad. I would not have wanted anybody, any black student, to go through the things I did, see. Uh-huh. But the fact that they don't know means that they don't really have respect for us and them that they did that. Well, that's one of the main reasons we're putting this book together, and we want to tell these stories because we think that people aren't aware enough of how much things have changed. But also, things still have a ways to go. I was going to say, yes. Of course. But still, it's – They don't know. They don't know. No, but I think it's – in fact, my students are very, very interested in this subject. I mean, my black students are just – you know, they want to hear every detail as I interview people. So I think this history needs to be brought out more. Yes, but I hope you all will. Oh, we are – I'd like to be here that much longer. I've lived my years anyway. That's why we appreciate your help in putting this together. But we realize that many of the people in this – of the first 100 black CPAs have passed away, but many of them are still alive. But if we don't get working on this soon – They don't know. Yeah, that's right. So I may be aged, and that's – you know I've lived my time. I think you're the oldest person still alive. I probably am. In this particular book, yes, you are. So did you find that you could get some work to do in New York while you were in school? Yes, because if – well, I was there when Kessler and Montgomery were there. They were the two top men, Kessler and McCowney, and Montgomery and Audington. And Kessler taught me, which I feel was a privilege. And even at that time, Columbia had contacts with – I didn't get any accounting work to do, but I was sent to Spelman & Morton. I don't know who sent me or how. But the man there was interested in the fact that I was a college student trying to make some money. And he would give me everything that's an address. I didn't know – they didn't use typewriters to address these envelopes that you get millions of now. But the hand address, he gave me – he kept me an envelope, and he always gave me address that he found out I was in college. It was only two lines. For example, where you have a street address, he didn't give me that kind. He gave me – it would have been an institute list, but it didn't have anything. He gave me the shortest ones he could until, well, when he ran out. And that gave me a chance to get more addresses done. Oh, I see, because he paid you per envelope? Did you get paid per – He paid per envelope. That's what he gave me. I don't know. That was nice of him. And that helped me. So my mother – my father had died. And my mother was helping me, because I didn't have money. I would have been $600 a day now.