Chylo-Full-Ready

Shiloh Flavell, a touch rugby player, discusses his experiences with his friend. They talk about his mother's cooking, specifically the rotation of meals she serves. They also discuss their preferences for mince dishes. The conversation then shifts to Shiloh's touch rugby career, including his involvement in various tournaments and his passion for the sport. Shiloh talks about his upbringing, his love for sports, and why touch rugby is his favorite. Shiloh Flavell, kaipa te? I'm good, brother. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. Oh, don't put your... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, good, good, good, good. You good, though? Really good? Yeah, really, really good. How's life? How's the families? Ah, they're good. Um, I actually haven't been back to see my whanau for a wee bit. I've been busy with my hita last month, so, ah, yeah. When you go home and mum cooks your feed, what is it? I always say this, even to my flatmates and partner, that my mum has the same rotation of food every week, ever since I was young. Really? Same rotation. Why? So, I already know what it's going to be when I get home. Depending on what day of the week it is? Depending on what day of the week. So, walk us through the menu, then, because this intrigues me, because my mum was always a bit of a sporadic kind of, you never really know. Depending on how much money we've got, or what that means to get a good mood, what is it? So, we go home on a Wednesday. What's Wednesday? Wednesday, it'll either be mince, or her version of butter chicken. Yeah, which is... Why are you laughing? I don't even want to explain what it is, but I'm just grateful for, you know... Can we talk about the mince, because there's... Depending on how the mince is cooked, I'm coming over. How is the mince cooked? First question, is there mixed vegetables in it? Zero. And the reason why I say mince is because there's like, it's usually like nachos with mince, or it'll be like mince on toast. Is it tomato-based? Yes. Oh! Yeah, always. Nice. OK, I'm in. You know what my favourite, favourite kind of mince is? Enlighten me. Have you ever seen Watcher Warriors? I have, but I don't recall any mince in it. Yeah, there's a scene in there, there's a pot of mince, OK? And you've got to go back and watch it. It's a really hard movie, though. People who are listening from around the world won't know what we're talking about. But there's a pot of mince, and this is my favourite kind of mince. It's just mince, and chopped up potatoes, onions, and cornflour. It sounds like poverty on a plate, but I promise you, this is the best food in the world. And you put it on a piece of toast, heaps of butter, poached eggs, right? Yeah, poached egg, bro. Come on! Anyway. Talk to me. So you go home on the weekend, what's Mum cooking on Saturday? On a Saturday, well, you know, if there's whānau around, and there's actual people around the house, then it'll be something like a roast or... Does Mum glow up for visitors? 100%, bro, 100%. Like, I literally grew up on Mega Rings. But, like, you know, when people are around... Red or blue? Red. Have to be red. Do you put chilli in? Have to. See, that's why I like you. I put chilli in. I carry my own sauces to it. Sweet chilli, you know, I got around with the mayonnaise. Yeah, because you're a weirdo. Do you... When you cook... I know this is supposed to be touched, but we'll get to it in a second. When you cook your Mega Rings, do you eat it in liquid or do you drain the liquid out? I have, like, maybe 90% of the water tipped out and I have, like, 10%. OK, I have to have all water gone. Oh, look, this is my method for Mega Rings. I don't even know if this is going to stay in there. That's super dry. No, no, no. It's all moist, right? It's because the noodles, you... Firstly, you cook the noodles, right? And then in a separate bowl, I put all of the... I put all of the... You know, so you have the noodles in the bowl, right? So you cook the noodles in the hot water. Yeah. Level with the plate on the top, so it just, like, simmers on the thing. Yeah, right? And then in another bowl, you put all the ingredients, including all the chillis, and then... Yeah, like, so it's a little bit of a paste. And then you drain all the noodles out, right? Put that... Put it in there and mix it up, bro. I've seen that on TikTok. Ramsay. Ramsay. I've seen that on TikTok, and plus my flatmate's Asian... No, no, no. I was doing this before TikTok was made for you. OK, lucky. This is Tokoroa. I like this. This is back... OK, anyway. Shiloh Flavell. Shiloh Flavell. My brother. Very good friend of mine, but now friend of everybody's, cos he's famous. Wow. What a duck. And if we had to make it touch-specific, I would say New Zealand Open mixed representative, just got back from Trans-Tasman, right? Māori All-Star, Indigenous Māori All-Star, played at the very first ever Māori All-Stars game held in New Zealand, which is quite cool. Won a gold medal at North Harbour Open Men's at possibly the most boring final in the world. Was it... Did it feel boring when you were playing? Obviously not when you're winning. No love on the sidelines, bro. Like, it was the most dead crowd ever. I don't know if you guys heard me mocking everybody on the microphone, but anyway. And then, I guess, and amongst all of that too, you know, you're obviously from the Bay, played with the As One boys for a minute, and you're very much involved in that sort of Bay of Plenty kind of, that area of touch, right? Yep. Were those all right? Those ones all right? Yeah, perfect. OK, cool. But just to add. Also, Turkey Touch Club representative. OK. And that's in Taupo. Nice. I just got a shout out to the whanau. Nice. OK, cool. So, I guess for me, other than the fact that you're a very good friend of mine, why I wanted to have a chat with you is because I feel like there's a really good story in all of this, in particular for those alive under 25, right? There's a nice story in that, in the fact that, at the moment, like, one would argue there's very few, in New Zealand anyway, like, kind of, like, young, touch-focused athletes, right? Like, everyone obviously plays other codes or whatever, but I feel like the new generation that are coming through, it'd be really cool for them to have, you know, someone that's sort of closer to their age and they can kind of watch and get amongst. Anyway, that's sort of one of the reasons why I wanted to have a chat with you. Is that cool? Yeah, sweet. Take us back. When did you first pick up a touch ball? First pick up a touch ball, maybe... Or just play touch. Play touch. Oh, obviously started when I was super young, you know, playing at home, the marae, everywhere. Where are you from? From Turangi and Rotorua. Did you grow up... So I grew up in Rotorua and I spent most of my holidays in Turangi, so I was back and forth. Were you born in Turangi? I was born in Rotorua. Oh, nice. Yeah. Oh, nice. Really? True story. There's a lot of people that are born there, I don't know why, but... Oh, we stayed there 10 minutes and then I left. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're not actually... Nah! I don't say I'm from Rotorua. Rotorua actually is the place where I first kind of picked up a touch ball and I was maybe about 7, 8 years old. Yeah. And I just remember the first ever kind of touch game or tournament I went to was for primary school. Oh, yeah. And that was... It wasn't really my... Like, I didn't... That wasn't my first pick. I remember always wanting to go play rugby, always wanting to play rip rugby, and then touch was just a bonus to get out of school at the time. It's a weird chat talking to you because you're so much younger than me. No, not even really, but you know what I mean. Like, you're a whole generation younger. For what? Right. The reason why I think it's weird is because when I was growing up... Let's normalise this, my bro. Yeah, let's go, yeah. When I was growing up, rip rugby wasn't even a thing, you know? Touch was the only non-contact version of other codes, right? So when you talk about, you know, growing up wanting to play rip, I'm like, that was not a thing for me. Yeah, well, it was early days for rugby. Yeah, yeah. But again, it was just like another kind of excuse to get out of school at the time. And plus, you were with all your friends, everyone else was playing, you know. At that age, it was just, yeah, it was fun. Okay. And you enjoyed it? 100%. Is there a reason, like, did you play other, like, did you play league or rugby or nah? Yeah, so my days looked like growing up and my dad put it on me when I was really young too. Like, sports was, I guess, just my whole life at that time and my dad was a real kind of driver for that because he just, I don't know, obviously wanted me to be an all-black or, you know. Sporty family? Nah, like, I got nine siblings, two brothers that I adopted, but out of all my siblings, I'm the only one that plays sport. Right. So, and I think, yeah, again, just credit to my dad, he was always the one that was pushing me in that direction. I played sport Monday to Sunday every week from the ages of nine to 15, 16. Wow. So, yeah, that was, like, my whole life was sport and from Monday to Sunday it was, like, Monday I'd have some sort of league training and Wednesday I'd have league training. Tuesday, Thursday I'd have, depending on, like, the season, rugby training and then, obviously, Saturday, Sunday, I'm playing rugby and league and then during the summer, you throw a touch into it and it's coming out of the back end of rugby and league, so. Was touch your favourite? Yeah, 100%. I just, from a young age, I understood, like, how I could use, like, obviously my speed and all the physical attributes, but I noticed in touch, like, how much your IQ and your understanding of the game differentiates from the other sports. Yeah, right. It's just, like, I don't know, it's something I've always kind of enjoyed the most about touch. Probably because, like, it doesn't make me sound like I know what I'm talking about, but if you're in rugby or league or an actual contact sport, like, power is almost like a big turtle, right? 100%. If you can run through someone or smash someone, then you instantly become whole property, right? Whereas in touch, you've got to be, you've got to have agility and, you know, finesse. Maybe around intermediate, 10, 11 years old, is when I really started to, I guess, like, identify that I was really small. I was really small playing league, rugby, I'd get smoked and, like my dad would always say, I'd be out there tackling fairies, you know what I mean? So I just knew from the get-go, besides the physical side of things, that touch was more down my alley. And I just liked the problem-solving aspect to it. I was real cheeky when I was young, so there was a lot of times where, you know, you have to use your problem-solving to get out of the situations that you put yourself in, and touch was super relatable in that aspect for me. Was it a big thing, like, at your school? Like, nah. Nah, no. I don't remember touch being a core thing, right? It was sort of just, like, one of those games, like, t-ball. You know, like, you could go and play it if you wanted to, but now it seems like some schools actually take touch, like, super serious. Yeah, well, I've seen, during high school, it was, like, this real evolution of, and it was, because I went to Rotorua Boys High, it was all the boys before me that almost made touch cool. It was, like, up there with, you know, the likes of rugby. What else was big at school, kapaka? Touch was almost at that level of, like, bro, that's, yeah, if you're part of the touch team, that's hard. That school's always been, like, you know, senior and all that. Like, it was, like, legit. Yeah. And even people before them, obviously, that paved the way. So when I got to high school, that was a huge realisation for me that, like, damn, this could be, like, a pathway for me, not knowing about all the expenses that come along with it. Yeah, well, it's been user-paced for as long as you've been alive, right? Exactly. Yeah. Did you play, like, local and secondary schools, or? Yeah. I won the first year I played, I think, and we lost to Hamilton the second year in the semis, so. One of the cool things, I guess, about your story that we've talked about, and I guess it could resonate with a lot of people, is that touch was almost like the conduit to normality for you, right? It was that sense of belonging, almost, and it was something that kind of made sense when everything else kind of was a bit hazy for you? Yeah. Yeah, 100%. To put it into perspective, I grew up in Rotorua, and I went to five or six different primary schools there, so, and I moved around houses that there was no tomorrow, so there was, like, maybe, I lived in seven or eight, seven houses, or six houses, just moving around in Rotorua, and even growing up to, say, 18 years old, before I was 18, I'd lived in, like, six different towns, and, yeah, there was, obviously, heaps of factors to this, but touch was, like, wherever I was, no matter the age, no matter the time, no matter the city, like, touch was always that consistent thing in my life, so. It escaped almost, or? Yeah, 100%, and it was just something like the most reliable thing in my life, literally. I just know I could, like, reach out to this person to go play touch, or, you know, I could get in contact with this person when I moved to a new town to go for a run and play touch, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, it was pretty much like my escape. Because I feel like everybody has a, at least those people that I'm, you know, close with or connected with, they almost have a touch DNA kind of story, and that's sort of why it means so much to them when they run out and they play touch, or when they hit a representative kind of level, achievement, or whatever, it means so much to them, because at one point, they'll close their eyes and they'll reflect, and it goes right back to the moment as to why they play touch. For you, it's that sense of calm, and it's... Yeah, it goes back to, like, more the belonging and being able to, like, escape the reality at the time when it was hard. And, yeah, it just being reliable in my life, like, that was one thing I always looked forward to, no matter what I had going on at home, no matter where I was, again, like, yeah, it was just always there for me almost. Yeah, nice. And I guess for that reason, maybe let's just pull the curtain back a wee bit. One of the things that you've become really good at and quite well known for, one would argue that a lot of the people listening to us at the moment probably know you more for your skills as a creator versus your skills on the field. Would that be a fair comment? Yeah, I feel like they work, like, a decent... Yeah. They work hand in hand, but... Yeah, is one of the reasons why you feel documenting the journey is so important is because it hasn't always been as sort of calm and collected as it is at the moment? Yeah, that's a huge one. And if I could have documented, like, at that young, say, 11, 12 years old, when YouTube first started, I reckon it'd, like, bring me to tears. Like, it's that kind of meaning in terms of playing touch, and then, like, the same love that I have for creating content comes from that exact same thing. So, yeah. That's cool. I feel like that brings us to a really good point in your story as to why the journey has been so special for you, right? And then even the last 12 months and some of the really obvious highlights of your career, if you're going to call it that, have been in the last 12 months, but I'm sure there have been a whole lot of little wins over the last little bit that you've thought, yo, this is dope and it's a nice stepping sort of stone. And whilst you're, you know, pretty well profiled now, it hasn't always been that way, right? You're slowly chipping away at it. And I've seen some of the changes in your approach and, like, you used to be a little arsehole, and then now, you know, now you're very humble and it's a really good interaction, whereas, like, if I didn't love you, I would have given you a hiding at least twice. But the last little bit has been, you know, special for you, yeah? 100%. And, like, it goes back to, like you say, the small wins. And, like, what I want people to understand from my story is that the realisation of being able to change my mind and being able to change my perspective on, like, anything in my life, say, relationships, the way I turn up for touch, the way I, like, conduct myself. And, like you say, I was cheeky, I was all of those things that, I guess, I wasn't seasoned to be around coming up through the ages. And it was through the realisation of moving away from my hometown, then going back, and it was that, like, in that moment, I was like, damn, like, I've got a little bit of, like, life experience about me now. I've spoken to different people, I've understood different perspectives, and I've gone back to my hometown where everything was the exact same. Yeah, nothing changes. Nothing changes, and, like, that was the realising kind of moment for me where I just knew, like, my whole demeanour had changed, like, and it was super powerful for me because it was like, damn, like, now I understand, like, what my parents were trying to say. I understand almost where I need to go. I understand, like, what person I need to be to be able to achieve these things. So it was more that realisation and, like, the empowerment of that that really drove, like, me to change and become the person who I needed to be, like I knew I could be, you know? That's deep. That's heavy. That's kind of cool, though, right? It's so cool. I found, having known you for a little bit, I feel like your guard's been let down a little bit more. Yeah. Does that make sense to you? A hundred. I just feel way more comfortable in, like, who I am, obviously. Like, I go back to the small wins, and it was always almost shedding the thinking of being subjected to, like, small town syndrome, which I always refer to, and it's like once you escape it or you break that, that's where the real, like, kind of, that's where it lies, you know what I mean? Once you escape that, you break that. Got to cut it out, Shiloh. And now that we know a little bit about where you've come from and, I guess, the journey, it makes sense, right? You have to, having been a small town person myself and having almost gone through a very similar situation, we actually... You actually work for the Touch Blacks, so pretty much. So we have taken the same route. Yeah, a little bit. I play for the Touch Blacks and you manage and coordinate the Touch Blacks, so... Yeah, potentially. We're going to look at it like that, right? Comms, everyone. More reflection, Rahul. Yeah. The cool thing, though, is the ability to reflect whilst you can still build and be better. But I always think that you don't have to be different. Change just needs to take place. So deep down, I think everybody is the person that they can potentially become. Yeah, within you. It's in you somewhere. 100%. And just sometimes it takes a little bit of peeling back some layers and dropping some guards and feeling things and finding things and understanding things. And relationships are also really important, too. And like you said, if you remove yourself from the same circle and figure out, actually, sometimes a square, triangle or diamond is the way to go, right? It doesn't always have to be a circle. And so, yeah, I like that for you, Brian. I love that. And I think you're right. You've matured so much over the last little bit. And then with that, with maturity come milestones, right? So you've kind of hit some really key milestones and I'm keen to talk about some of them. We'll go back and flesh out some of the other stuff, too. But this year was a really big year for you and I know how really important becoming a Touch Black was for you. Super important, right? It was kind of the pinnacle. It was like everything I dreamed of as a kid. Like I said, when I got to high school, that was like I knew that I wanted to touch on as a career, although it wasn't like a paid sport. I loved it that much and it was glorified in high school that much to me that like, damn, I want to be just like the Shaqs. I want to be just like the Mossies. They were the guns at school. Yeah, all of that and just, again, playing into the realisation of like being able to change your mind, change your mindset and just like the personal growth behind all of the achievements is really what I mean by the small wins. So it was really my own doing. I was the only one holding myself back and that's kind of more important to me than the actual making the Touch Blacks because like I said, you can change your mind and once you get around the right people and all of that stuff, it's like all of the milestones come naturally. You don't have to try and force it. You know what I mean? Yeah. One of the key, you've triggered something in my mind, something that I figured out and it took me a while is that sometimes the right people aren't right right now. I know there's a lot of rights. But I would let people tell me that the people that I love the most are the wrong people for me but that's not correct. They're just not right right now and everybody's got a little bit of right in them for you and the moments you're in and the mahi that you're doing and the spirit that lives within you. Sometimes they're just not right right now and I feel like even though you've escaped or moved on from small town and that sort of area, doesn't mean that that wasn't right for you. It's not right right now. Exactly and it's like when I go back now, I look at it in a perspective that like now I can give back. I've gone out. And it fills your cup, right? Exactly and I've taken on the skills. I've learned all these different possibilities that are able to get you to where you need to be and now I can go back and almost use it as a tool to hopefully push the next generation to the same direction. Yeah, inspiration, education, motivation, right? Exactly. And I feel like the cool thing about your story, particularly for us nerds that love touch, is that there was that one conduit through the whole thing which was touch, yeah? Yeah. So tell me about the Touch Blacks journey for you. Start it over, Mixed. Start it over, Mixed. So the whole kind of journey started for me maybe making my first representative team for the Bay and that was under 11 Mixed. I've got this little crack-up pixelated photo I always post to my IG whenever I'm like kind of reflecting on the journey. And so that started back then and the actual journey to the Touch Blacks, I documented it so I'm going to release this maybe, I don't know, the next day, 30. Yeah, maybe, maybe. Or maybe leading up to the World Cup, I actually documented the, when I wasn't in the Touch Blacks system, I went through a real kind of rough stage when I was maybe 17 years old where I got, and I just want to tell this story because I feel like it'll be relatable to someone that's listening. Yeah. Like I said, I was moving around a lot when I was younger. Like whanau were there for me but at the same time, when I was moving houses and all of that, I was around my friends more than my actual whanau and you know, you're at that like too cool stage, you kind of know everything at that age, no one can tell you anything. Yeah, I remember that, Charlotte. Yeah, exactly. So at that stage, I knew my whanau was there for me but I still went and hung out with say the wrong people and got around the wrong crowds. Because we take that for granted, right? A hundred percent. Because they have to love us. Exactly. You can't go anywhere. We're related. So I'm going to go be an arsehole but I know you're going to be there when I get back. That was the exact thinking and it was super like, when I look back at it, I almost cringe a little bit. I'm with you, brother. But I just, again, you just reflect and you think like how far you've come, right? So at that time, I was like doing a lot of, like drinking a lot, doing drugs. I fell out of touch. I was just kind of doing what was cool at the time and I had a break from touch for a year and it almost dropped me out of being selected even just for the Bay of Plenty but I knew I was definitely out of reach for the touch blacks because of the position I'd put myself in. I feel like this was, was this just after the time you went to Fiji? This was before. This was way before. This was during. During, right. Or maybe not during, yeah, I was coming out of it at Fiji. Yeah, at that time. At that time. Was that the comeback? That was the realisation. Yo. When I played against the GOATs in the first game, you know. You got smacked. And we got smacked. Yeah. Yeah, that stage in my life, my thinking, my mentality was like all about being cool. I just wanted to do what was cool. I wanted to fit in. Like touch wasn't even a thought back then. Like I knew that that's what I needed to do or like, you know, that was my kind of escape my whole life and now I'm using this other thing as my escape. Doing drugs and doing alcohol and all of that jazz. And why this kind of plays into my, my Touch Blacks journey so much is that this is when I like kind of realised that like, like this isn't me. I know what I want to do. How do I get there? Like how, what's the next step for me? And I always give props to my partner at the time because she almost like showed me the light or showed me the way or different direction at that time when I kind of needed it. That in itself was always the main driver. Like I just knew what I wanted to do and I knew what I was doing was wrong. So from that point onwards it was just like that's when it started. That's, I mean, firstly, that's brave for sharing. Do you talk about that often or nah? Yeah, to my friends, like whenever they ask because it's not like overnight success, you know what I mean? It's like, it's a game that goes so deep. It's a long game. So that I'm always willing to share and like everyone, or not everyone, but like, you know, some people can relate. People can relate to that stuff and when you're at that age, you can't see outside of that. It doesn't have to be drugs or alcohol, right? It can be anything. Anything, yeah. Sometimes it's gambling. Sometimes it's food. Sometimes it's other things. So yeah, nah, I feel like, I feel like there's a story in there for everyone, bro. So you get, so your missus at the time has the arm of the air? Yeah, she's pretty much like snap out of it or I'm off, like I'm out. Just thumbs you on that? Yeah. Oh, okay, just checking. So that was always kind of the, damn, I need to switch into gear. Like, what am I doing with myself? So once I got past that phase, it was more so just building back into just making like the Bay Men and going through the Reps Off Club stuff and really just relearning where touch had gone in that one year when I wasn't in it. Because some of your closest friends are like some of the biggest names in our game, right? And some of them are really humble and quite grounded men. Like, surely they whacked you around the head? Or like, what do we, like how do you? I think it was more because, if you're referring to like Lossy and that, Yeah. Yeah, this was before I actually went to Aswell and started with that touch club. That makes more sense to me now because I feel like that would never fly right now. No, 100%. You get the one-two from a sasu. Yeah. Exactly. And it was like I always refer to like you are who your circle is. And it was just a matter of like escaping that and getting around the likes of Lossy, Sass, even the boys from my hometown that play touch. Yeah. So, yeah. I like that. You've come to this realisation now. Is this the beginning of that, of the glow up, if you will? Like what are the steps between now and touch blicks? Like how many on the ladder? Five or six phases or? Hopefully. I want to at least play three or four World Cups before my kind of touch journey finishes. When you finally come through that, I guess that difficult phase and is it once you became a part of the circles with Aswell, with these other people, you change your circle, is that when things started getting better for you from a touch perspective? Yeah, it was that and really sorting out my life outside of touch and where I wanted to go in terms of my career outside of touch because like you say, it's like a user pay sport. So, now that I'm an adult, I need to find the funds to be able to… Afford to love it. Yeah, afford to have this love for touch. So, I think once I sorted that, my relationships, like not just my partner but my friends, my family, all of the little stuff that plays into like your performance on the field, your thinking, the clarity. If you're good at home, it's got to be good at home. Exactly. It's got to be good at home, bro. So, once I'd sorted all of that and again had some sort of direction in my career outside of touch where I wanted to go, then touch became easier and that's where the real growth started. In terms of some of these highlights on the field, like is your first campaign back all right? Like is that Bay Open Men's, Open Mix, what are we doing? Yeah, so my first comp back was the Bay Open Men's or it might have been Lachan. Lachan had our fuckers. It was one of those tourneys that I'd come back and I'd say it went all right. When I come back, oh, that sounds so cheese. When I come back, I got MVP of the fuckers for Lachan and they gave me the fire and stuff and again it's like Ah, for MVP, that's dope. Again, it's like this realisation of I am where I need to be and I'm doing the right stuff to achieve the things I want to, you know what I mean? Was that the only non-airs one for Katani? I had two maybe. For Lachan? Yeah. Is that an awkward chat when you go, hey boys, I'm going to go play for Lachan? Or for airs one? The way I looked at it at the time was that all the Taupo boys, all my real close friends played for airs one. I was the only one left that played for Lachan and some of those boys played for Lachan as well that left. I'd done one more stint with Lachan and then it was just natural for me to go to airs one because all the boys were travelling together. We practically in touch season. We lived together in touch season, you know? We live under the same roof so when I messaged Lossie and Shaq, oh Lossie, when I messaged Shaq and Moss, they were all good. They understood like, yeah, that's where my good friends are at. So yeah, they were real cool. Have you told Lossie and Sash that you're playing Peel Jam this year? I'm trying bro. No, no, no, no. No starting rumours. Yeah, let's keep that out of this chat here. No, no. I'm going to leave that as is. So you go to Nationals. I really want to talk about Nationals because I feel like Nationals is where people start looking and taking notes and this is where the Touch Blacks journey, whether or not this is the right way to get picked to play for New Zealand, this is the only way. You need to participate in these National events, right? Yeah, well let's not even get into how you are selected or the selection process. Yeah, yeah, nah, let's not do that. There's 99 pages online if you want to read about that. Link and buy. Yeah, no. There's no link. Well, I don't work there anymore. So the so the journey to the Touch Blacks, to the Nationals, so your first Nationals back. Tell me about that. The first Nationals back, I had an okay run with the Bay Boys. I think we'd done three three years. I'd done three years with them and all of those years, we always made the semis. It was either against counties or Waikato and we were always kind of just losing, but in terms of like personal performance, those were more kind of feeling out stages for me. It was like just soaking in all the knowledge that was around me, the experience. Again, with the likes of like mossy loss. Very much still rebuild. Yeah, 100%. So it was almost like a figuring out process that like where do I belong on the field? Where am I the most effective on the field? And what skills and attributes can I kind of offer the team that I'm in at that time? So through playing with the boys and understanding what I needed to do, that's where I really found my, I guess, point of difference or my, you know, my anger. I kind of figured out where I needed to be at the time. So that was really important for me because those boys are, again, just some of the best in New Zealand and being able to compete with them, understand their thinking, understand their processes like on a deeper level. Learn from the rock. And learn. That's what it was all about. Exactly. So going to Nationals last year with the North Harbour boys, the reason why I think we were so effective, and credit to Daniel and the boys and the Pearl Jam boys and everyone else that's in the team, but the reason why we were so effective was almost because we could gel all these different styles together and complement them in a way that like obviously it worked. And everyone respected each other. And that was the coolest part. Like if you weren't on, you're not on. Like don't try to push it. Don't try to keep going until you get on. You know what I mean? And bro next to me is on. They see that and it's just throw him out until he's not on and it's the next guy. Was that your first non-Bay Nationals last year? Yeah. Don't try and make me sound like I'm playing heaps of different teams. Well that's the thing at the moment, eh? Every Nationals. That's the thing, yeah. I remember watching the North Harbour team, your guys' team, particularly the men's. So watching the men's and one of the things that I really enjoyed and I remember I think it was either Louis or Dan, I remember talking to him about it, I can't remember which one, but I remember saying like this looks like he's having fun and I feel like it might have been Lukey or someone's told me if you're having fun everything just happens and it makes sense because often we'll lose sight of how important it is to have fun. Did you have fun? Bro, that was the most like, and I say this to the boys, that team was just like, I don't know, you can't even describe how good it was. You know what I mean? Like the way you spiritually bound everyone's on the same like wavelength. You know what I mean? It's like bro, you run out there and you can just rely on this person to do this job. You know what this guy's gonna do. It's like, you don't have to worry about anything else. You go out there and you do your job and have fun with it and everyone understood that on the team so it was like, there was no way, it sounds really unfair. No way we were losing? Honestly, there was just this synergy in the group that I just felt like there was no way we were going to lose. In the humblest way, I mean it in the humblest way, but just, I mean within the team and it wasn't even a culture thing. I don't think we were culturally the best team there in terms of how well we knew each other. But again, it just comes back to there was this real energy about the team so that's my favourite part. When you think back, what were the three sort of key things that you think every team dynamic needs based off your experience with that Harbour Men's campaign? I won't say the most important but one would be ego. Obviously, all the boys in our team were super sharp. It was like a matter of who's going to play where, who's going to do what. You mean check your ego? Yeah, so check your ego. You leave that at the door. When you turn up, you get given a job, you do that job well, everybody's good, you know what I mean? The other thing was probably trust. Trust in the process. Our trainings were in all that but what we had practised and said we were going to do would effectively do that and when it was good, it was great and when it was bad, I'm telling you, it was bad. But we knew straight away back to the process, that's how we need to win. And then lastly, I'd say trust. Just trust in your own ability or your teammates' ability and a big one at the time was our coach, like Joel. He was mean, bro. A little smile in a team, right? Yeah. I mean, and I love my boy Joel but no one's named me Joel when you think, you know, like a heavy-headed coach in New Zealand, like Joel doesn't come to mind. I know Joel and Joel's not going to be offended by that. Everyone's like, ooh, that's too bad. He's all good. But you know, what were some of the things you enjoyed about his approach? His approach was like more based around you as a person. It wasn't even a touch. It was like, he was more worried about like, are you sweet? Are you good? Like, what do you need me to do for you to achieve this kind of thing? And it was more based around like how I felt or how we felt personally rather than like the actual playing touch. Yeah, yeah, nice. So, yeah. But I feel like in a team where you've got, you know, we know the names that were in that team. You almost don't need a technical kind of like hands-on coach, coach. You just need someone to make sure that everyone's good, eh? And again, it goes back to like just understanding the dynamic. Like, he just knew what he needed to do and again, we had all of the brains in this throughout the team to be able to put some sort of plan together. First trial for the touch blacks. What was the, you get invited to a trial or how does that work? I actually, full disclosure everyone, despite having worked there for a year, I haven't, and being involved in many years prior, I had actually no idea how the selection process works. I promise, I don't know. So, I'm not being, you know, like an idiot asking these questions but how do you get selected to trial at the touch blacks? So, the way I was selected, it was two nationals, like you say, you have to play at these national events to be seen. And it was the last game of the tournament we were playing counties for fifth and sixth for the day and... Woo! Did you actually play it or did you get more? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was that live streamed? Yeah, it was live streamed. Excellent! Fifth and sixth? Yep. It might have been third and fourth. Yeah, that sounds better. Third and fourth would have been on TV. Play final, what's play final? Oh no, that's fifth and sixth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Hey, how do you eat? On a plate, go. And it was the last game of the tournament. Obviously, we played 10, 11 games, 11, 12. Yeah, you're over. Everyone's done and I wasn't. I wasn't finished. You know what I mean? I was still trying to... Everyone's done and I wasn't. Yeah, that's like my Kobe Bryant kind of dime in my career. That's the love. Yeah. Um, well, that was the game that kind of almost got me seen and I got a message from both the coaches, oh, both the coaches? I think it was both left me a message and just said like I looked like I was still fresh and still had a lot of energy about me. So, men's and mixed coaches? Oh, just mixed, sorry. Oh, so, Damo and Hika. And Damo and Hika. Yeah. So, they, I think it was both of them. Yeah, they pretty much messaged and said they just really like the tika, the energy that I had even though it was like the last game. So, they were willing to give me a shot. Yeah. And this was maybe like two, three months after Nationals and kind of leading into Nationals, I knew that I had to get it done and do all the right things. So, I was pretty grateful that in the last game of the tournament, they seen me and yeah, kind of gave me the opportunity. See, this is why it's important, kids, if you're listening. Because everyone else is going to have the approach that I did at the beginning of the sentence. Laugh about fifth and sixth, right? Everyone else is going to have that, you know, grow up. Because if you do what Shai did and stayed on, look what happens, right? Exactly. Is that right? See you through. See you through. You go to camp. Western Springs? The first camp, yes, Western Springs. What's your feeling? It's your first ever touch breaks camp, right? Yeah, I went into like a real open-minded, I didn't know what to expect, never been before. I had the word high performance attached to it, so I really wasn't, I didn't think I was like at that end of, yeah, level of, you know, high level. Oh, now I do. Yeah. Now I'm confident in my ability, but at the time, you know, this was my first time being selected, so. What year is this? A couple years ago? This was only last year. Nah, this was Christchurch if it was Bay. Yeah, but then we didn't have the trial until the following year. So, it might have been that year actually, but I think it was 22, it was only last year. Yeah. No, it was last year ATL? Or Homegrown? No, Homegrown. We went, that was last year. Yeah, it was last year. So, that was my first kind of, um. And at that point, you still weren't feeling HP yet? Nah. Oh. Okay, well that's cool, humble, humble. I, I really didn't feel like I was a high performance athlete until I started, I got a personal trainer. Yeah, yeah, right. So, I provided all these different players from around the country, so, that was a real, um. That was almost like our version of, you might not remember this, but back when I was a kid, they used to do a, like an All Blacks Probables vs Possibles or something? Yeah, exactly like that. Which is, like basically the approach they took, right? These people are likely to be in the team, these people are on the, on the come up, right? So, ultimately I was on the opposite team to, um, the brothers. Yeah. Louie and Dan. Yeah. And I, the reason why I say that is because I really wanted to play with them to understand where I was at, and then when we got to play against each other, it was almost the same thing. So, it was like, I was like, oh, I get to test myself against the boys anyway because they've been running really well, and I really wanted to test myself against them just because I knew they were the best in mixed, and getting the opportunity to do that, and then, like, we fell short, but I really felt like we had a proper go, you know? Like, we actually put it to the test, so that was my first, I guess, foot in the door for NZ, and that's where they kind of got, yeah, they got the group and the thing. Or was it just straight email that's going to cost you 10 grand? Like, what's the go? I think the process, I don't know how they do it to different players, but they just told me at the thing. Oh, you got told then? Homegrown, yeah. Really? When we finished, yeah. Did they name everyone or did they come up to you and go? They just said, hey, Bruce, let's do this. Right. But like, I think other people got calls because they said at Homegrown they're going to call everyone and let them know. Oh, that's cool though. Yeah. Was it everything you expected it to be? Like when you started becoming a touch black? No, not really. Because you would have had this in your head, like, how it was going to be. Well, again, the person I needed to be to get there. So, again, it wasn't like, I'm a touch black. It's like, yo, I changed my thinking. I changed everything about me to become this person to make it. You know what I mean? That's always been the thinking. So, the jersey is just a plus. Then I get to represent the journey and all my family and friends, you know? We just went to Brizzy and we spent a week over there. And I'm keen to, because it was like a 10 day thing for you guys, because you went into camp and didn't go home until we got back from Aussie, right? Yeah, we went home for the night. Oh, did you get to go home? Yeah. You could choose whether you could, because I live in, obviously. I might not go home too soon. Yeah, so you go into camp and effectively you're in touchbacks mode, right? Yeah. Was that what you thought it was going to be? Yeah, it was. Because you're so close to realising the dream, right? Yeah. Again, it was like, the real moment for me was like singing the national anthem in another country with some lady playing the drums. Like, standing there singing the national anthem in another country, like, there was a helicopter flying past while we were singing it. Like, all of this felt like a movie. Like, I was like, and I'm the main character here, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, all of this is like, it's crazy to me. Like, honestly, something out of a movie. Like, everything in that moment was just beautiful. Like, it was good, bro. Beautiful, such a beautiful word. Oh, beautiful, bro. It was beautiful. It was. And again, that was the thing for me, you know? That was like, yeah, I'm a touch black. Yeah, hey, it was a really cool kind of experience to finally get to play Australia. See, we were at a game. How many of the games did you play, all of them? I could see, because it was Japan first, eh? Yeah, so we played Japan as well, which was super dope and super cool. So they rested you on a few of those, eh? So they rested me on the first game against Australia, which was Japan, and then I just got needling and a whole lot of massages. Yeah, yeah, you're feeling alright. First game against Australia, which was Japan, and then I just got needling and a whole lot of massages. Yeah, yeah, you're feeling alright. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,