Moral Policing and Privacy: Mat Skodeng and Surveillance

The podcast episode discusses the topic of moral policing and privacy. The hosts, members of a youth advocacy group, highlight the issues of privacy and freedom of expression in Malaysia. They discuss the right to privacy and the challenges of balancing personal space and surveillance. They also mention cases of religious authorities raiding hotels to enforce moral policing, which raises questions about the invasion of privacy. The hosts argue that privacy rights have been compromised and diminished over the years, especially with advancements in technology. They also mention legal loopholes and the need for stronger protection of personal data. The debate about the role of religious authorities in enforcing moral policing is also discussed. The hosts emphasize the importance of due process and respect for individual rights, regardless of religious beliefs. Okay, everyone, good morning, good afternoon and good evening to all of our listeners wherever the time you are listening to this. So we are back with the second episode of this podcast by Procrast Blue. So this will be, today's topic will be about moral policing and privacy. So it's about like squad scouting and surveillance in general. So as you can understand from the topic, so we will be mostly talking about our masters in regards to privacy. But before we get straight into today's podcast in general, we would like to introduce ourselves as Procrast Blue. So a little bit thing to know about us is that we are a new and upcoming group of young activists under the Youth Advocacy Academy on Freedom of Expression. We highlight and advocate for the issues of freedom of expression, assembly and association in Malaysia as enshrined under the Article 10 of the Federal Constitution. So hence Procrast Blue, which is in the Malay version. So dalam bahasa, it's Procrast Blue lah. So currently we are making a lot of campaigns in regards to moral policing. So we are making awareness, we are creating awareness towards the youth and all Malaysians on how moral policing can affect our lives in one way or another. So today we will be making this a second episode of our podcast. So today I'm your host, my name is Enoch and together with me, we have like the rest of my co-hosts, Procrast Blue members. So we have Hafiz. Hi Hafiz. Hi. Okay. Hiya. And then we have Daniel. Hello. Alright. Hello there. So this will be our co-host for the day and I'll be your host. So we will be talking about privacy issues as a whole in general. So it has been something which has been a prevalent issue that kind of like haunts the society and also sparks a lot of debates within our civil society as well because where do you draw the line between private matters and public matters, public affairs, right? So a little bit of context as regards to the idea of privacy itself, we have the surveillance of like intimacy surveillance. So technically speaking, which we will be getting straight into more explaining about this issue later on. And then we have like questioning, like some of the decisions that have been made by the authorities to, you know, justify this kind of like stuff, this moral policing intimacy surveillance. Okay. As in regards to like enjoyment of my personal space, what does it mean to be, you know, having like, you know, having your privacy, enjoy your life, you know, your right to live without the threat of monitoring and surveillance. Okay. So the question here, you know, today when you talk about privacy in general, so should this right be liberated or instead should be monitored, right? So this is where we discuss a lot of issues as particularly we are talking about like the raids or the direct KL raid, the mask squatting squad and et cetera. So there's a lot of things we can actually discuss here today. So yeah. All right. So to warm up questions, right, let's talk about something when it comes to like the right of privacy in general. So when we always hear this term of this kind of like the right of privacy, right, within this civil sphere. So, so what privacy or what does the right of privacy means to you in general sense? Maybe we can start with Hafiz. Yeah. Okay. So for me, when I'm talking about privacy, I will always imagine it as the right to be left alone. The right to be in your own, for me, there's a two essence of the right of privacy. The first is the right to be left alone in which you are right to do your own thing. The second would be the right to enjoyment of space, the right to enjoyment of personal space. It's basically when I'm doing a personal event, let's say in a house or in a meeting, I would like to be left alone for me to have this personal space and enjoy this personal space from my own capacity without any intrusion. Yeah. I think for me, the right to privacy is a fundamental human right, which everyone has the right to enjoy and the concept of right of privacy has evolved from time to time and even in the UDHR, Universal Declaration of Human Rights and ICCPR, International Convention on Civil and Political Rights has also talked about the individual's right to enjoy the right of privacy. Actually, the right of privacy has evolved a lot over the years. From the right to be left alone to the right to enjoyment of space, currently we also have the right to have our own personal data and our own enjoyment of our own data and everything. Yeah. Alongside the decade as we alongside the technological innovation and everything, our right also evolved with a much more emerging kind of right, especially in this topic of privacy, right? Okay. Modern times. Modern times. Yeah. I think both of you have explained it very well. In the general essence of right of privacy means that you have the right not to be kacau in a sense. Just don't bother me, just leave me alone. Particularly, speaking in today's context, sometimes the real question and the real debate sometimes which has always been debated, how much do you allow your government to intrude in your own private life? Yeah. That's the whole essence and whole issue of this kind of conversation, this discourse as well. Okay. I mean, that's more or less what we can agree upon. The right to not to be disturbed by outside forces. Yeah. That's about it. I think we can just, how you say, to move on from that is that, do you think that our privacy rights in general has been compromised or diminished over the years? Especially when technology gets more and more advanced, despite more and more existing safeguards such as the federal constitution, right? We do have a law case in arguing which, I think Article 5 or Article 10, something along the lines of privacy as well. I think it's around Article 5. Yeah. All right. Despite some existing safeguards and what not, even if it's not in the context of Malaysia, is there any other examples that you can think in other countries that is where this discourse is basically having a huge discourse like here? So, maybe some of you maybe can try to, I don't know, result something. Yeah. Okay. Do you want to go first? I'm not sure about other countries, but in Malaysia, it's not explicitly guaranteed about the right of privacy in our federal constitution. But, however, the federal court in Indonesia has recognized certain aspects of privacy as constitutionally protected under the broader right to personal liberty. So, if we look at Article 5 of the Constitution, safeguards the right to personal liberty, which states that no person shall be deprived of his life or personal liberty except in accordance with law. So, basically the federal court has interpreted this provision to include the right to privacy to some extent. Although the scope and specifics of this right remain subject to judicial interpretation. So, I think the privacy-related issues in Malaysia can be seen in several statutes, such as in CMA, Communication and Multimedia Act 1998. Kalau kita lihat di dalam app tersebut, di dalam subseksi 3 subseksi 1A, menerangkan protection against unauthorized interception, surveillance and disclosure of information. And also the Personal Data Protection also. PDPA. PDPA 2010 also, protect your privacy of your data. The right of privacy is actually adopted from the common law at first. Adopted from the English common law. And then, like Dan has been saying that currently in Malaysia, under the federal constitution, it was recognized under the Article 5, subsection 1, the right to personal liberty and also the right to life. The one that, the case that actually revolutionized and actually starting the starting point of the right to privacy, I would say is the Siva Razia case, in which Gopal Sriram stated that the right to privacy was included in the right to life. The right to life and personal liberty. And then, even though it was just an omitted data, but it's still a starting point of recognizing a wider right of privacy. Yeah, in the range of privacy. So have the thought on invasion of privacy. So basically thought is a civil law system in which there is no, when we're talking about thought, there is no exact statutory that regulate this kind of thing. So it's all under the thought, a civil law system of thought on the civil offenses. I would say it's civil offenses. And then we recognize as one of Malaysian cases that actually had recognized. Even though it's not actionable per se, there is still a debate up to the end whether it's actionable per se or not actionable claim. But still the thought of invasion of privacy had been recognized in the case of Liu Yu Po. And then also in the case of Selina Ishak cases. So in this case, basically Malaysia has a long history of trying to recognize the privacy issue. Because privacy is an integral part of human life. And even in every country, especially in US, privacy is an issue that being discussed upon. Being actually something that integral to their part and it's actually a matter of being taken seriously. There's a lot of issue of privacy, whether it's our own personal life privacy, whether on our own enjoyment of space and whether on data leak, something that has been currently received a lot. That's the thing, when we're talking about data leak also and the Safeguard and Personal Data Protection Act 2010. Even though it's a good act, but still it's a little bit, there's a lot of what we call lacuna or there's a lot of loophole there. And the government are trying to amend this act to actually include a more comprehensive and various to actually fill on the loophole. For example, one of the issues that being talked upon is that PDPA excluded the liability from the government side of matters. Meaning that if the government, the one that leaks your data. It cannot be held liable. But the thing is your privacy has been reached no matter what. But currently there's a movement trying to actually amend this and hopefully we'll manage to see that this act being amended so that Malaysian privacy law, especially in data can be protected enough. So technically speaking, long story short, TLTR. I could summarize it with saying that because we have a lot of legal loopholes and things that are not addressed within our Malaysian law. So you think that Malaysian data, Malaysian privacy has been compromised or diminished over the years. So that's your main point. I think I can attest to that as well. I think both of you are trying to bring up a lot of legal side of things when we talk about the privacy. So that is also we can dive deeper into the philosophical ideas of privacy in general. So if we ever hear about compromise and diminish over the rights of privacy. So when we talk about surveillance, intimacy surveillance. Intimacy surveillance is also for those people who does not know. Intimacy surveillance is a kind of surveillance where the authorities will, how you say, jump peak into the people's personal lives whether or not. Tangkap khawab right? Tangkap khawab lah. Intimacy is the most easier to ignore. If you're going to outright say yes, but you're talking a lot, then tangkap khawab lah. So kind of like, especially among the Muslim community as well, especially by Sharia causes, if I'm not mistaken. So what do you think? Should you think those kind of religious authorities have the power to enforce this kind of rape? Is it reasonable in the first place? And is it against the law? Against the laws of privacy and stuff. Because you hear this all over the news. Maybe for some of our listeners, you might come across this kind of news once in a while where the religious authorities will rape hotels and go and catch Muslim couples. Even to the extent that they're actually married. And then those authorities are asking them, where are your marriage certificate? Do you remember? Where is your marriage certificate? So who brings marriage certificate outside right? Especially yang baru kahwin kan. How do you want to know that? Oh I should bring my marriage card? Or something at least okay lah. It means you say that you have a photo at least in your phone to prove. But other than that, I think it was a very long time ago. Like a few years back. A few years back. There's a case there. Someone virused their story, being raped. I'm not sure whether it's Twitter or Facebook. They're being raped in a hotel. They're a married couple. But suddenly someone knocked on their door saying, we're Chinese, come in too and everything. And then giving a warrant saying that. Even though they are the married couple. But in that particular case, they did not bring their marriage certificate. In Malaysia, I think we have the marriage card actually. They didn't bring it as a show proof. So it's becoming a hassle to prove that they're a married couple. But that's the question. Should the Sharia enforcement be enforcing this kind of thing? Should they? Especially when it's a married couple. That's the question. How do you get the teeth? Is it enough for you to say that? Oh, someone goes to the hotel. It's two persons. It's a male and female. Okay, let's go. It's going to be a scene of danger there. So as Muslims, how do you rationalise? I don't think rationalise is the word. How do you explain this kind of moral policy in general? In terms of this kind of stuff happening. As a Muslim also, we need to understand that this is an issue of other Sharia offences. For example, in Selangor, we have an Enactment of Genial Sharia. Selangor 1975. Usually, that's not an issue of topic to be debated upon. But yeah, it was a law under the Enactment of Genial Sharia. Selangor 1975. As a form of moral policy to ensure that there is no... I wouldn't say extra-marital affair. There will also be no hanky-panky happening for those who are not unmarried yet. Because it was pro-Islam, right? But the question is... I would actually question it in regard of the SOP itself. That's actually the SOP. Yeah, so this is something I want to understand. That's actually the SOP guideline. So where did they draw the line between... Knowing... How did they come to the conclusion of shirk? Actually, even in Islam, it's quite hard to... You need to have a form, male, female... For you to actually know someone, khalwat or anything. There needs to be a false witness of male. So in this case, it's just basically... Usually, in a rape case, it's just basically based by a thief. And then there's going to be a form of a squad. A squad from the regime of the posthumous. Going there... But they need to bring a warrant also. Before anything, they need to bring a warrant. Going there, based from the thief. And then going to ask... To enter and to actually investigate. Whether it's really a khalwat or not. They need to give salam and everything. They need to ask questions and everything. That's actually a proper guideline. I will not indulge it further. Because it's going to take a lot of time. But I did read in one of the articles. Actually, I did read about it. Basically, why they're doing this... Is because of the philosophy of... For those who doesn't know... Meaning doing good and preventing evil from happening. So usually, there's someone we report. Yes, someone we report. That's the take given by some people. That's how it's happening. Or they're going to a context... A mall to actually go to the hotel. That's actually happening. That's how they operate. Famous places, they're going to go and... Set up a surveillance squad. Like if you see in American Pillar, right? There's a van. Usually, it's happening in Malaysia also. But it's not a van. But if you guys find out, you can... Like why they only raid the hotel... Because it's low and not like... The luxury hotel. I would say that it's because... It's much... I would say it's because... No, because there's a lot of couples... Going to the mall because it's low. Or is it something along the lines... Because it's a huge, major hotel. You have international people. So they don't want to... That's also true. Like a lot of factors playing into... That kind of situation happening. I would say that it's just a... First of all... We can first of all... It's not a problem, right? Turning back... Let me explain it further. The question would be that... Even though there is a SOP and guideline... Done by the enforcement authority... But those enforcers... The one that's doing the enforcing... The one that's doing the coward and everything... In this article... It's stated that... The problem is... Not most of them knows... The proper way of the SOP itself. That's the question. Does the enforcer know the proper SOP? And does they follow it 100%... Based on the SOP that's been given? That's the question raised in this article... That I once read. When we're thinking about it... That's why... It's happening. For example, the married cases... The coward marriage cases... This kind of cases happening because... SOP are not followed 100%. And then... This thing happened... Should it be enforced? Or should it be policed? For me, personally... I wouldn't believe. That's why I said... Even in Islam... Privacy policing is actually... Something that we're proud upon... That has been debated a lot of times. Islam takes a lot of account into privacy also. And that's why... Islam does not exactly pawn on... Policing the privacy. But yeah... How do you actually balance... Policing the moral of society... At the same time... You're trying to respecting the privacy. There's a delicate balance there. For you, yeah. For me... We think... If the person... Was accused of being a coward... And we don't think... What's the right of the accused? When accused of being a coward... Let's say... There's nothing... He can't prove that he's a coward... Will he end up there? And... What will happen to the accused? As long as he's not guilty. So... What's the right of the person... Who was accused of being a coward... Should be considered... So that there's no feeling of shame... That was borne by... The accused. So... We should get... Like... How do you say... The due process. I would like to ask... The view or point of opinion... Of a non-Muslim. What are your thoughts about this issue? I would say as a non-Muslim myself... I think... Consequences will become consequences. Whether you do it or not. For me... I think... In my own personal perspective... I think whatever you do in your bedroom... Or whatever you do in your room... Is entirely a private matter as well. You bear your own consequences... Of your own actions. So... This is where... There's a lot of things that... When you have civil laws... And common laws in general... There will always be... There will always be... The debate or the idea that comes with... Do you want to have people to constantly... Watching over you 24x7? I mean... I don't know how to really put this. Because honestly speaking... I'm not sure about... I mean... You do have religious authorities. Here in Malaysia, of course... We do not have all... Like quote-unquote... Our Christian... Or you say... Our Christian authority. But that kind of Christian authority... For example... Usually will have to be wrestled... With the churches... And with the... Pastors and elders and whatnot. So into this effect... If there is a reasonable proof... We don't do it... We don't do it unreasonably. If we do it reasonably... So what we do is first... We have to look into the details first... And then counselling in general. If there is... Up to the point where... You are committing a crime... Then... It is really highly suggestible that... Please... Seek help. Seek help lah. Okay lah. I will say... Please just surrender yourself. But of course... Let's say... I know that these kind of things... Will be very... How do you say? It will be a lot of debates. Because for me... I don't think that... How do you say this? The core of this debate... The core of this discourse for me... Is whether or not... Do you allow people to... Monitor you... Dictate... And... Try to punish you... For the things that... People might shuck you... I can't do it. Okay? Versus... Your own personal liberty... And own privacy... And then you bear the consequences... Regardless of what happens. Okay? So that's my own... My own personal touch of things. That's how it goes. In general. Do you guys remember the... Cases where... What about... What's your opinion... In CCTV itself? There's actually cases where... CCTV being installed in a... In a fashion brand changing room. You guys remember, right? And then... It caught... The thing is... It caught an intimacy... It caught an intimacy happening... At the changing room. And then someone viral it. And then it got viral. So what's the thought of... Your opinion? How did you guys find that issue? Basically it's... It's also a form of... Intimacy surveillance, isn't it? Yeah. CCTV is a form of... Intimacy surveillance. It's right. But the question is... Is it appropriate? Is it appropriate? I think installing the CCTV... Is... Appropriate. I mean... What's the point? If you want to say... If you want to say... For security purposes... How much of that percentage... Is for security purposes... And how much of that percentage... Is for... You know... I would say it's more... Intimacy surveillance. Intimacy surveillance? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So this is a very interesting question though. For me. Because... How you say... To... Let's say for example... Not only in CCTV... But in the instances of the... About the PBSM girl in Johor. Yeah. In Johor where there's this instance where... A netizen... I don't... A citizen. Okay. I'm being a netizen. A netizen is different. This citizen... Go and film like... This one underage... Girl. Minor. With some guy lah. Okay. Which is technically older than her. So film the... Inappropriate... Acts in the car. In the car. In Johor. I would say inappropriate... Inappropriate position I think. Yeah. Inappropriate position. So... The real question comes here. Is that... For me... If this is something which is like... If minors... Things that you want to expose people... Like say for example... Like underage... Because it's like... How you say ah? If you want to... Avoid this kind of things from happening... And document everything... That's one thing. Because it's your responsibility as a citizen... To catch this kind of... I like this kind of unwanted things to happen. Like murder... For example. Minors... If being caught in those kind of acts... Inappropriate acts. Okay. Versus viraling it. So there's a two difference. And then you need to consider also that... The girl was a minor. And the act of... Actually the act of viraling a minor... Can be considered as a peddling of... Pornography actually. Even though... It can be considered as a porn. A type of child... Children porn. By peddling a children porn. It's actually... Something that... Or an offence... Crime offence actually in Malaysia. Okay, that's why... I'm actually questioning... Whether someone take action... Against the one that... Viraling the girl. That's why I also... A bit confused. So... Are the actions against him or not? You can record that video... As a form of evidence... To be submitted to the court. If... Say he's... That person... The people involved there... Is found guilty of any offences. Versus... Viraling it... Versus... And then... You're putting this... This girl's... Privacy in jeopardy as well. So... I think with... I think with... What can I say is... It's very important... To strive for... A process... That protects... Protects individual rights... While promoting... Social harmony... And respect for diverse beliefs... And practices. There's a delicate balance there. Delicate balance... That's right. I think... Let's go to... Our question. There was this... There's going to be a correlation... Correlation... Correlates with the... Correlates with the... What is it? Proposal... Proposal from politicians... Establishing a muskoting squad... During the mid-2000s... So which is... Technically speaking... Asking... Volunteer citizens to be recruited... And awarded for policing... The morality of their fellow citizens... Okay... That sounds awful... I'm not okay with it already... Well such proposal has been denied... By the government... Of the time... Okay... So many times... Never left such an idea... And they bring a lot of... Debate... Discourse... Collabing... Especially in regards to... Privacy... So... What is this... Opinion... On this proposal? So do you think this kind of... Idea is... An invasion of privacy? I would say so... Okay... And would it cultivate... The idea of... Doubt and mistrust... Among society? So... Hafiz... I think you... When you... Talk about... You did mention... The idea of... This muskoting... You proposed this topic... So can you explain... So there's two... Ideas... Two versions of this... Muskoting... Squad right? The first is the proposal of... Asking... Citizen volunteer... To become... I would say... Mudpod... For those who live in... Mudpod... For those who... Have studied in school... Boarding school right? You know what a mudpod is... Mudpod is basically... Someone that gives tips... That actually... Tattles... On things... Teaching... So basically... You're asking for... Citizen to be a signature... Especially in case of... Intimacy... Things like that... Moral policing... Something like that... Asking the citizen to be... Signature... Signature... And then the other... Version of it... Is that... You're also asking for those who... Work in hotels right? To... Actually... Enter to this squad of... Muskoting... Especially when... Those who work in hotels... If they see any couple... Going to the hotel... They need to give report... Toward the... Influencers... Authority lah... And... For me this proposal... Actually both of this proposal... Is actually something that... A little bit disappointing... A little bit... Oh... Takut... Takut... Because... When you live in a society right... And you want to live in a society... That you believe the society are good... That you believe the society... Have your back... That you believe that... That the society... Is someone that... Respecting you... And respecting your... Right and everything... But... If you live in a society... Where you know that... It's not an unsafe... You're feeling... Insecure in there... And it's going to raise... And cultivate doubt... In your mind... Yeah... Would I want to go out... With... I feel safe... Going out... I feel safe going... With the society... It's going to raise doubt... Among... All the Malaysian... I don't feel safe lah... Someone going to pot me... Someone going to... Yeah that's the question... It's going to raise doubt... Even in your kids... I live in... I studied first... Look at school... Ashram lah right... In school right... There's a mud pot... Yeah... Basically... There's always... Everyone has their own mud pot... And then... This mud pot right... People doesn't tend to... Like them very much... Because... They feel... Unsafe or unsecure... Yeah... Maybe yeah... Maybe can... Teachers maybe like him lah... Because... There's a thing... To the teacher... But... Your batchmate... Your society... Your... The one that... Surrounding you... Doesn't feel safe with you... So it's... It's the same also... It's cultivate doubt... And mistrust among the society... This proposal is actually... Quite boisterous... It's a little bit ridiculous... Why do we need to help this... Citizen volunteer... Why should this citizen volunteer... That's the question... And then it also raises the question of... The authenticity of the... Tips itself... If a citizen... Can be a squad... Squad member right... And then they can give... Any... They can give... Any tips they wanted... Let's say someone give a false tip... Alright... Happening right... Yeah... And then... Things happen... Like... The rate of married couple... Is going to be happening... A lot of things... Is going to be happening... How are they going to differentiate... Between the false tip... And the... Real tip... Does they going to... Actually... Go and... Ketuk every... Pintu... Even... Okay... Okay... I think the... Thing about the married couple right... The reason why they are... Actually... Macam marah... Because of the... Religious rate... Happening... Is because... They felt when... Yeah... When someone ketuk your pintu... When you're in your personal space... When you're in your personal mind... And you're enjoying your personal space... You're trying to rest... Someone ketuk your pintu... Saying... Oh... Of course... In your first mind... You're going to keep... Oh... What happened... What is happening... Right... I'm going to be... Tangkap or anything... You're going to feel fear... You're going to feel like... Unsafe lah... Yeah... You're going to feel unsafe... Really unsafe... You're going to feel like... What happening... That's actually... Psychological impact... On yourself... You're always... Even if you go to that... Particular hotel... You're always feel unsafe... Yeah... And do you want to be... In a society that... Feeling unsafe... Feeling unsafe... On our privacy... I think... To an extent... As well lah... Imagine this kind of... Situation happening... Right... Let's say this kind of... Legislation or proposal... Has been passed... Um... I felt like... You are not even safe... In your own home... That's okay... You're safe in your own home... Yeah... Like... It's... It's what I call it... Ultramoralistic... So... I feel like... It's really against... Perkara hidup lah... Yeah... And then... Why is it... I want to become... A peeping tom... Why is it... A peeping tom is not... A good connotation... And this conversation... Also leads to the point of... Like... Um... What dictates... You... What dictates... Things that are... Offensive to you... Yeah... It's so arbitrary... I think... If you're going to go to the... Our last question... Um... So... To those of our listeners... I will provide you... Some sort of like... Context lah... So in 2022... Which is like... Last year... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... Um... 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