The Stink I mean Sting

The podcast hosts discuss the movie "The Sting" and their thoughts on it. They talk about the plot, characters, and their own experiences watching the film. While one host finds it entertaining, the other struggles to see its appeal and feels it is too focused on certain characters and subplots. They also discuss the significance of the film for their podcast and its influence on their rankings of best picture winners. Hi, welcome to Sibling Cinema. I'm Dennis. And I'm Bonnie. And we are here counting down the best best pitchers of all time from worst to best. And we're up to number 36. Wow. 36. So Bonnie, what's in store for us today? Today we are doing The Sting from 1973. Yes. And what is this? What is your history with The Sting? I'd heard of it. I think I could have told you that it was Paul Newman and Robert Redford. Or that would have sounded familiar. That is the extent of it. Yes. And I asked you what you thought it was about. What did I say? You said it was about pool. Oh, pool. Which is not a bad guess. I don't think there's any pool in the movie, but I think pretty much every character probably played pool. Probably played pool. And Robert Newman was in a pool movie. Paul Newman was, yes. So it didn't really have to do with pool? Didn't really, but you know, it's gambling and Jason and it's about con artists. But what was your task this week? It's to figure out, there's some supporting character that I should have recognized from something else. Which I did not. Although Adam recognized somebody from my favorite Martian, which is not a show I have ever seen. I don't know who that was. Or who he was at in my favorite Martian. Maybe he was the favorite Martian. It was Ray Wollstone, but Ray Wollstone was not in any scene that we've seen. Right. I thought that one of the female characters was the woman in Private Eyes with Don Knotts and Tim Conway, but she was not. No, I mean Brennan, no. So did you recognize the actor who played Lamingen at all from The Emperor of the Seasons? Robert Shaw. Really? Yeah. So he was the king. Yes. Wait. Okay. And then show me him in this movie. Oh, no, I did not recognize him. What year was that? Oh, it's almost the same year. This was 66. Okay. No, it was much earlier. Yeah. A few years earlier. A little earlier. Wow. Did not even remotely recognize him. That doesn't look anything like the same guy. It is. It's Robert Shaw. He's also probably even most famous for Jaws. Jaws? Who's seen Jaws? Who's played in Jaws? I've never seen Jaws. Okay. We're not going to see Jaws? One of the humans. We can. We can do a bonus episode on it if you want. Did he get nominated? Yeah. Lost to one Florida Bikudu's last. Oh, what year is that? 75. Okay. So we're not far off from that. I would never have known that. Those guys don't look anything alike. Yeah. It's the same guy. Okay. So yeah, 1973. So just take a look at some of the losers. Okay. Ever seen American Graffiti? No. Okay. Well, that was, you've heard of it, though, right? I mean. It's a nostalgia movie. It's, Happy Days isn't based on it, but it was kind of inspired, loosely inspired by it. I actually bought Howard's in it. It was George Lucas's first real big hit movie. Oh, Star Wars George Lucas? Yeah. So he made this movie about. Interesting nostalgia. So it's a generation later. Yeah. I think it's set in, I mean, very recent. I think it's set in like 59 or. Okay. So it's real about, really about adults remembering their childhood then. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of music. Okay. It was a real big hit. Yeah. Not much plot. It's just one night, a bunch of teenagers cruising around their small town before they go off into adulthood. Introduced a lot of actors would become big stars, including Ron Howard, well, who had already been in a sitcom. The Andy Griffith Show, but Cindy Williams is in it. Suzanne Summers, Harrison Ford, Robert, Richard Dreyfuss. They were all unknowns at this time? More or less. Okay. I mean, Ron Howard, obviously not, because he's an Opie. Opie? Yeah. In the Andy Griffith Show. Yeah. Okay. So American Graffiti. Yes. A touch of class. Yeah. A touch of class. We come across this every so often. Sometimes there are these movies that just kind of catch fire when they came out, when they come out, get Oscar nominations, and then are never talked about again. I've never heard of this movie. Yeah. Yeah, I hadn't heard of it except for this nomination, and I've seen it. George Segal and Glenda Jackson star in this comedy about an extramarital affair. Wait, is he the Patton? No, that's George C. Scott. Okay. Yeah. George Segal, I don't know where you would know him from, but in my head that he had a role in a sitcom when he was older. Okay. I mean, he's famous for the, but I know you haven't seen it, The Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. Oh, yeah. But anyways, this was kind of pushing the envelope in its day. It's a comedy about, basically, a comedy about adultery, and it takes kind of the obstacles that come up when you're cheating on your spouses, you know, had traditionally been fodder for drama, melodrama, or tragedy, and now it's like comic. It's a good comic. Very 70s, early 70s, and I think probably that's maybe why it didn't age so well. There's this kind of, maybe like an awkward phase of the sexual revolution where the industry was so male-dominated, it's just a very male-oriented view of women's liberation. Right, yes. It's about, you know, sexual availability. Yes. The Clinton-Jackson's really good in it, but I've forgotten most of it. I had to refresh myself on the plot for this, and I've already forgotten it. Okay. Chrysa Whistler's, though, is very memorable. This is a very serious Ingmar Bergman film. Have you ever heard of Ingmar Bergman? I think so. Yeah. He's a very famous, kind of the key director of Swedish cinema. Okay. He's a ton of high-profile credits. Seventh Seal, Wild Strawberries, Persona. Seventh Seal, you probably recognize images from it. It's a movie about a guy who plays chess with death. Oh. It brings up some fascinating themes, and he's very interested in interior emotions and also religious themes. I guess Chrysa Whistler's is set in an opulent estate where these three sisters and another companion come together for... One of them is dying. It's a very serious movie. Kind of a downer, but it's so beautiful and very touching. Okay. And then, of course, finally, I'm sure you've heard of The Exorcist. I have. Yeah. You have not seen it. I have not seen it. Yeah. Interesting movie. It's obviously... It's about an exorcism. It's terrifying. It was a huge hit. Yeah. I'd like to see it. Yeah. It's pretty terrifying. You recommend it? It's an interesting movie to discuss. It's very disturbing. Very disturbing. If this had won, would this be the most horror movie type? Oh, definitely. Okay. Yeah. This is as close as it comes. It got ten nominations. It was a huge, huge hit. Good movie? Yeah. It's a very good movie, but it's very disturbing. It's about a little girl who gets possessed with the devil, and the mom doesn't know what to do, and the doctor doesn't know what's wrong. And it's based on a true story, right? No, it's inspired by true events. Okay. It's inspired by accounts. Okay. So, there's a lot of dispute. At any rate, the top box office of the year was The Exorcist. I think I've mentioned before, the box office statistics are a little waffly before 1977, because it's just the way they were reported. But some sources would have it as the top grossing movie of all time up to that point, surpassing The Godfathers from the previous year. Oh, The Exorcist. Yeah. Other sources have The Godfathers a little bit ahead. But anyway, it's one of the biggest hits of all time. Biggest hit of the year, and The Sting is second. It's also very close. One of the biggest hits of the 70s. Very different movies. Very different movies, yes. So, Bonnie, what is The Sting about? The Sting is about... Make sure you capture all the subplots. No, I can't. The Sting basically follows... Robert Redford plays a character who is a con man. And he's got, at the beginning of the picture of the show, of the movie, he has just had a successful con with his partner at the time. And then his partner ends up getting killed. He kind of goes away. But before he died, he was... He was played by Robert Earl Jones. James Earl Jones' father. Really? Oh, I did not know that. Anyway, so, before he dies, he is telling Robert Redford's character, who I don't remember his name, but anyway, he tells him that he's going to retire. Tommy Hooker. Yeah. And anyway, he needs to go... He gives him a name of somebody else, I guess, because he wants to get into the big time and this guy wanted to retire. So, anyway, after he was killed, he goes and he finds him. And that is Paul Newman. Yes. Henry Landor. Right. His character. And then really the rest of the movie is this wildly elaborate, many prongs and rings, almost Inception-like. Well, I mean, that might be a stretch, but there's many layers to this. I think layers like Inception, many layers to this ultimate thing that they finally pull off at the end, which is quite elaborate. Right. And then it's, you know, but really we watch them not only do it, you think it's for the money, but ultimately it's just for the thrill of the get, I guess, the con. Or for revenge. No. Oh, well, yeah, I guess it's for revenge. I think it's actually for the thrill of the... Yeah, well, we'll probably get into that a bit more. But yeah, I guess revenge too. Yeah. So, what are your thoughts on the thing? You've just finished watching. I just finished like a few minutes ago. Yeah, I have a couple of observations. One is that it's awfully fun. I mentioned to you that I ran into a big film guy last week. Oh, right, yeah. Yeah. And I told him what we were doing, and he wanted to know like, where do we go to the theater and watch it? So, it's definitely very much a... If you can set that up, I don't want to... Movies were meant to be set in the theater kind of thing. And, you know, I'm like, okay, well, does it really matter where you watch the movie? I do have to say that there, this week is an example of why a movie theater would be a good place to go. Right. First of all, I noticed I had problems with my DVD. So, I watched the rest of it at your house. Yeah. Your setup is way more movie theater like than mine is. And it was kind of a different experience. And I was watching it late at night, and we were at home, and I was missing some of the intricacies. So, I don't think that I gave the movie a fair shake. So, I don't know if I was tired, if it drug in the middle. I don't know. But I do have to say that I struggled to stay awake, and I sometimes lost my struggle. But anyway, made it through. But not because I was like, I don't like this movie. So, I'd be interested to see what you think. Yeah. Now, it's early in the day, and I just watched the last. 15, 20. Yeah, the last section of it. Right. And, you know, edge of the seat, and I knew the build up and everything for it. And it was really the payoff. So, that was good. But, you know, it was wildly entertaining. But I say that. Wildly, okay. I mean, this last thing, that was really a lot of fun, and there were kind of twists and turns and stuff. But I do have to say that I struggled to get through it. It felt really long last night. Is it a long movie? Two hours and nine minutes. It's pretty long. So, is that a long movie? Yeah. Well, long for a movie of this type. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, so I guess I feel like I can't say definitively just because I don't think that I gave the movie what it deserved. Or, whoever makes the movie. George Floyd Hill is the director. Yeah, he's like, that's not how my movie was intended to be watched. Well, he wouldn't say that now. So, well, first I should say, I probably should have said this at the beginning, but this is actually a very significant film for our podcast. Really? Well, first of all, I first saw the movie when I was probably 10 or 11. Okay. We were stationed in Philadelphia at the time. We were several former Navy Brats, and I think we were probably in college by then. But we lived on a Navy base, and there was one of our neighbors, John, who was kind of an adult. I kind of thought of him as our older brother's age. I think he was. I think he was 13 years old. Yeah, but he actually treated me like a human being. Wow. Again, it comes up. Okay. No, I just wanted to say something nice about John. But he's like, I have kind of a film buff of the 60s and 70s era. This is a movie he introduced me to also, like, the graduate. Probably a little bit more advanced for an 11 year old. But I've seen it several times since then, including last August, I watched it. And after watching it, I said, I should go update my best picture rankings. And when I went to do that, I was like, well, this is impossible to clean up this list because I haven't seen, like, Marty, I saw once 25 years ago. So I have to watch them all again. So that's when that kind of started. So it's distinguished what led to the podcast. Yes. Interesting. Yeah. And then have you waited till now to watch it? Well, I mean, I watched it and then went to update my list. Okay. So yeah, I watched it in August and then I watched it this last week twice. Okay. Again, one thing that really strikes me is if I look at Letterboxd, which is kind of a film, like a social media site for film and look at like the ratings overall on a five star scale, like over a third, 36% give it four out of five stars. Okay. And then another like 38% is even higher. So it's almost and even like three and three and a half stars. If you consider that like the line between good and bad, it's like almost universally liked. Okay. Like maybe 5% are below three stars. Okay. You know, maybe kind of like one of those movies where it's no one's like favorite movie of all time. Right. But for a lot of people, but everybody likes it. And after... Because they play the entertainer all the way through. Yeah, they play Scott Joplin music, which is delightful. It's ragtime music from the turn of the century, which is... Isn't that all the entertainer? No, there's some different... Yeah. It starts off with the entertainer. There's different parts of it. So, it's got in your head that this is an entertaining movie. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. Yeah. And I'll just put it from the start. I'm kind of flummoxed because I just don't... I just don't get it. Really? Okay. I don't think... Why do you keep watching it? I think because I want to see what I'm not getting. And it's not like I hate it. I just don't see... To me, it's like, well, two stars is kind of generous. But to... I think I should start on a positive note. Okay. And I'll start with this scene on a train, a poker match between Henry Gondorf, the Paul Newman character, and Lonegan, the Robert Shaw's character. Two great actors that are just butting heads in this really a very entertaining poker match. I think it's the... For me, the most engaging scene in the movie. Really? Yeah. And what I like about it is... It's very clear Newman's the good guy, Shaw's the bad guy. But there's a lot of things to like about Monaghan as a character. Okay. And there's a lot of things to hate about him. And same with Henry. There's a lot to dislike about him. And in fact, a lot of the conflict that they have in this scene is he's being boorish and like... Really? Very arrogant. And so it's a really fascinating conflict because you're rooting for Newman, but Monaghan kind of has a point. And he doesn't because he's also a cheater and a killer and all of that. And so there's a real nice juxtaposition of how they kind of grind up against each other and kind of their jagged edges. It's almost like a gear where they walk and meet. Yeah. They're both cheating. They're both cheating. Yeah. But everybody loves Paul Newman, but it's almost like the scene dares you to like him. Right? Because he's kind of a jerk. And it dares you to hate Monaghan. Okay. Because there is some respectability and there's a lot to admire about his character. Okay. And so look at that interaction. Like if that's your... If you see it as a preview, I'm like, oh, I got to see that movie and see how this relationship develops. But sitting through this two hour, nine minute movie, you don't get much payoff to that. Their interactions are very like my commentary in there, but they never really meet up again. Until the last scene. Right. But even then, it's not like they're kind of... It's very kind of a superficial type of thing. It's really just the payoff. It's just the payoff. Right. Yeah. It's just the, okay, one of these of the battlers. Right. One wins, although he thinks that the other one... That's interesting because I hadn't thought about that. It kind of parallels that poker scene. Right. Yeah. Because he thinks he's won, but then... Right. He's cheating. He thinks he won, but actually the other guy is cheating at a deeper level. Well, he also thinks he lost because of the bet versus place and there's a lot to unpack there. Oh, yeah. That's true. I forgot about that. So much of the movie focuses instead on John Lee Hooker, who is... I feel like the movie is almost begging us to like him. He's so... His edges are all sanded very smooth. It's very an image conscious role for Robert Redford and his cover boy era. Even from the very beginning where... It's probably written into the contract. Well, yeah. I suspect that there's a lot of rewrites based on what Robert Redford won. But that's all speculation. I've seen a lot of behind the scenes stuff, but a lot of it seems more legend and hard to pin down. But even like that first scam, the guy... They don't know he's a gangster. It's just some guy on the street that they're targeting. And the movie kind of goes out of its way to tell the audience, well, you don't need to feel sorry for this guy getting pranked. Because he gets in the car and says, which way is Mason? Well, go the opposite way because I'm taking this money. And it's just lays it on really thick. He's not an innocent dupe and it's almost kind of absolved Redford. And this kind of continues where Newman's kind of in it for the excitement, but Redford's in it for the noble cause of this guy who was unjustly murdered. And he's out for vengeance. And then when he turns on Newman, which he doesn't really do because it was all a scheme, but even that is just because of the wife was threatened of his old partner. So it's just like at every turn, it's like they smooth it out. And I just don't think that, well, there's a whole lot going on. Yeah. And I think you lose kind of lose sight of this thing itself, because it's so focused on all these extraneous side things focused on Redford of this guy's trying to kill him, this guy's trying to arrest him. And this woman is trying to sleep with him and run to him. And then all of this is really distracting from the, what's fun about movies like this is putting the team together and seeing how... But his love and... Exactly. Yeah, I just watched that last night. So it's so good. Back to the gears analogy, he's like, he's like sanded down, so it doesn't propel anything forward. And you can have a character who's sanded down, but it doesn't fit into a gear you need like a hammer, butcher the metaphor too much. But it's like, you know, we see virtuous characters like in the Man for All Seasons or Kandi, but it's like they're, they're not up against other con artists, they're up against systems and oppression. Or even in Sometimes Millionaire, he's a very likable, fairly likable hero in the law. He's up against poverty and higher stuff where I just don't think it's too image conscious to work in a movie like this. I think it just comes off kind of bland. And, you know, I don't... So it's not my fault that I fell asleep? It's not your fault that you fell asleep. I was feeling really bad for the movie maker. George Freyhill? Yeah, he's passed. He also made Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid with Newman and Redford. So we're getting the team back together. It's a Western. No. No, they had pool tables in the last, right? I don't know. So I mean, I can go on. I don't know. No, that's very, that's very fascinating. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so the, I will address that it's how layered the movie is. I think that there's a difference between being intricate and being confusing. Okay. Because I've done a lot of like, what am I missing here? This movie is so beloved. It's not like, like American Beauty, at least I see, okay, people think it's deep. And I don't think that's deep, but I see what they are reacting to. Okay. Whereas now it's like, I see like a movie so clever. And I'm just I don't like to me, it's complicated in the sense of, you know, if you're talking to someone who doesn't know how to tell a story, and they're, they're saying, Okay, well, we set up this bookie station, and we get the, we're kind of manipulating the time difference. And then oh, wait, there's these two guys who are FBI agents, but they're not really FBI agents. And then there's the two guys wanted to kill him, but they're not. And then the woman at the diner is also a killer, but he doesn't know that. And then, and it's like, it's not intricate. It's just, we're just throwing stuff that doesn't fit together. And it just seems like there's suffered from too many rewrites, in my opinion. Okay. And I think that because look at the setup for the Johnny Hooker character is his, his flaw is that he's young and like he, he's a good car owner, but then he blows his money right away, and he has to learn to be more mature. And which he doesn't. Yeah, that's kind of dropped. And I kind of get the sense that it was originally written for someone younger than Robert Redford. And then it was written. And then also with Paul Newman, I get the sense that that was written for someone older than him. Yeah, because we get this scene of, you know, he was this great man who has fallen on hard times, and he's become a drunk and he's not motivated. But then after that scene, it's just like, he's, he's kind of, he really doesn't have much to do in the movie besides that poker scene. Yeah, that's why I was asking you, the age difference between them, because I think of them as like, siblings. It's probably closer in age than you and I are. But, oh, yeah. But anyway, I think of them as the same. And maybe Paul Newman probably predates, but. Yeah, I'm sure he's been passed away for several years now, but that's easy enough to list out. Yeah, I'll look up. Paul Newman came around in the 50s. Okay. Robert Redford is more 70s. Yeah, 1925, Paul Newman. So yeah, probably, I'd say Robert Redford's about that age, so maybe 10 to 15 years. He's 86, so he's older than dad. Oh, okay. So about 10 years. Yeah. Okay, so it is more than worse. 11 years. 1936. Okay. Yeah. So, oh, yeah, he's kind of introduced as like, he's fallen on hard times. But then like after that scene, it's just, he's, when they get into pulling off the stance, like, just have these unlimited resources and like at their disposal and like in the middle of the depression money doesn't seem to be any object and like dozens of people are on his payroll and all this stuff. And then with the Shaw character as well, the two things that are set up about him, like we meet him on the golf course, or he's running his criminal enterprise, but he's a pillar of the community. He, because he keeps everything at arm's length, he doesn't get his hands dirty. So that's one aspect of his character. The other aspect is he's ruthless. And if you cross him, he's not going to, it's like, okay, he's going to put out a hit on you and he's very matter of fact about it. And then after this train scene, it's like he's just defenestrated because, I mean, he falls for everything. Defenestrated like they took all his windows away? They took all his components. Well, first of all, like the whole, so what do you think was the point of the train scene? What do I think was the point? Oh, I don't know. I've seen it several times and I think it's just, I mean, it's to fill him up. I think for me, it showed me that like, oh, Paul Newman's character is, he's working at a level above because we're being shown the whole time. We kind of know that the other guy's cheating because we see the other one behind his back and Paul Newman looks like he's covering his cards, but we keep seeing his threes. Like we know what he has. And then the other guy says he has four nines. And I'm so terrible with poker. I'm like, I don't know what happens. Are they tied? Because they're four each or does it matter what level? It's all face cards. Like, I don't even know. So some of that was lost on me too. But then he just puts down four jacks. So I can see why four jacks would beat four nines because, yes, it's a face card and it's not. But does it just go by, this is a poker question, like so four fives would beat four threes? Yeah, and then jack, queen, king. Jack is basic. Ace is the highest? Yes, in poker it's the highest. So it really starts at two. Yeah, in blackjack it could be one or eleven. But in poker it's high. Okay, and then four of a kind, is that like better than a full house? Better than a full house, yes. Oh really? I didn't know that. So four nines is a strong hand. Four, yeah. Four threes is a strong hand. I mean, it's very rare to get. I think the royal flush and the straight flush are the highest. So I think what I showed in there is that one guy is doing a, they're doing two different types of cheating. Yeah. The one guy is doing this kind of old-fashioned baseball stealing your signs. Yeah. Right? It's almost kind of like the old honorable way of cheating. Exactly. And then Paul Newman does something that, I mean, he's pulling out cards that weren't in his hand. Right. I still don't know, how did he do that? We don't know. We don't know. Yeah. And like, I think like a lot of joy in movies like this is seeing how they pull it off. Yeah. And it's just, he needed four jacks. We don't really know how, I mean, we do see before that he's good with his hands and switching out cards because he's doing that thing where he's always pulling up an ace and kind of playing with the deck. So we can assume that he's got a slight of hand, but we don't really know how he is. Right. Yeah. Where the jacks are, if they're up his sleeve or how he's doing. So when you asked me what did that scene do, it just established that they're sort of playing the same game but a different. Well, I don't mean like what is the film trying to do, but like why are they going on the train? Why are they doing? I have no idea. How are they setting up? I assumed I slept through the part where we got that. So I have no idea. You tell me. Why are they on the train? It's just to get Robert Redford's character in, to set up the double cross. It's just to set up the. Okay. So that's it was, was it on the train where then he approaches King Henry. Yes. I'm going to. I'm fed up with this guy. I did see that part. Fed up with this guy. So I'm going to go back and he convinces him. And it's a strange choice to use Johnny Hooker because first of all, he's the least experienced and also he's the one that Lonergan is trying to kill. Yeah. So it's a strange choice to have that be your point person for Lonergan. But Lonergan doesn't seem to ever find out who he is. But Lonergan wants to kill him because he's the one he knows that he's the one who did the con to steal the money that he. Or he wants. Yeah. The crime in Juliet. Yes. So he wants to kill the guy who did that crime. Right. He never seems to put it together that that Redford's that guy. Oh, he doesn't. No. Okay. So why is he looking for him? He's looking for that guy. Oh, okay. And he's never looking for that guy. I see. So why make that. So it's it's like it plays with the motivations because we sent this guy out like, okay, you cross him, he's going to have you killed. But now the whole scene is so that he'll will cross him so that he's going to try to make money off of Newman and horse racing. I like wouldn't say assume like, okay, if we do this, he's just going to have Henry killed. And he has the power to do that. And so it's like, what are they trying to set up? And I don't know. So do you think that's why they had them be fake killed so that he wouldn't look for him at the end? I mean, I mean, they're just yeah, they were fake killed at the end. So that he wouldn't so that Lonergan wouldn't know that he was swindled. But he's going to go back to that place to try to get his money. And then it's going to be it's going to be completely dismantled. The reason given in the movie is that they didn't want him. He's going to put up he's gonna take vengeance. And so they just want him to think that he lost. He was unlucky. Yeah, but he's gonna go back to that place. Yeah, he's gonna find or I don't know what that's what I think missing here. Because what I love about Ocean's Eleven is there's all these permutations like, here's our plan. Oh, they even have the kind of the two characters, George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Lasha, sort of that same older brother, younger brother. Yeah, it's a much, it's a much more intricate plot. I think. And so what I was getting at is, he's no longer that threatening Lonergan, because what's threatening about him is that he just kills when you cross him. Now he's not doing that. And then all of a sudden, I mean, this guy who never gets his hands dirty. Like he's the one that's sitting in bars waiting for the phone to ring and he's down there himself. And it's like, why is it? If this was Ocean's Eleven, part of their strategy would be, okay, well, Lonergan is gonna try to find out what's this bookie operation, what's their history. So we have to create a backstory. And so then, it doesn't get into all of that. It's just he falls for everything. Yeah, going forward. And the detective falls for everything. And so it's like, I don't really see it as very clever plot because it's just, we don't get into how it's, how they're pulling it off. The other thing that is a little bit, now that we're talking about it, unrealistic is that really what you have to hire for all these things are good actors, which you have in a movie. Because if somebody doesn't act their part just right, like that whole, like the blood pack in their mouth and stuff, that I would imagine like you've trained for that as an actor or something. But like, I don't know if I could just like, pull that off. It's like, because you got to have, you know, shoot somebody, fake shoot somebody, and have them recoil and do all the things. Robert Redford's a good actor, but is Donnie Hooker? Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so there's also the Joe Eery, really weird subplot with this guy who is the third, calmly pull off in the very beginning. Yeah. There's the third guy who shows back up again, gets his nose beaten in by the top, and then comes to audition for the thing. Okay. And I'm watching it again this time, I was like, it's especially less obvious. Where's this going? I don't even remember. I mean, it doesn't go anywhere. So that's why I think that there's rewrites, but then there's no payoff to it. Like, why even bring this character back in, the last audience to remember who he is? He just is kind of like in the background. Yeah. There's no reason for him to be there. The other, so the ensemble element, which is the thing I love about Ocean's Eleven, a lot of other heist movies like this, is that you... Is that your favorite one of the Ocean series? Yeah. Okay. Wasn't there an Ocean's 10? There was, well, it was the Ocean's 11 in 1960, right? With the rat packs. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. That's the original with Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr. Is it the same story? Roughly. They're robbing a Vegas casino. Okay. But it's very different. Vegas is very different in 1960. So then Ocean's 11 was remade in 2001, and then there was an Ocean's 12, and then Ocean's 13, and then an Ocean's 9 was an all-women female version. That's a girl one. Yeah. I enjoyed them all. I definitely liked the Ocean's 11 remake the best. That's very cool. But I love seeing... I appreciated watching it again last night. It was just in the first 20 minutes, you are introduced to these 11 characters, and it's very clever how it moves from one to the other, and you kind of see them in their element, and you understand from each of them what they're good at, why they play an important piece in here. And so, later on when things go bad, we know, okay, well, the Don Cheadle would be a good person to bring. So you kind of know who's good. But here, you have these really great character actors, like Ray Walston, and Harry Gold, Arlene Brennan, and we don't get much of these characters other than Arlene Brennan, I guess, is good at pickpocketing, because she does that to Lonergan pretty easily. It's like, why is he bringing in the Ray Walston or the Harry Gold character? And what's their specialty, other than dressing up as painters like Lenny and Squiggy? And then even that... Were you sleeping through that scene, or do you remember? No, I do remember that scene. It was pretty... They go in, they take over the office, convince the guy, and then they kind of abandon it. Yeah, that's because they're setting it up because Lonergan wants to meet them. And, you know, it's like, brought in through a side door, but still falls for it. But it's not the thing where the Western Union guys fall for it, and then Lonergan falls for it, and that's just very flat. There's a real opportunity there to, you know, what if the real guy is supposed to be gone, something happens, and he's coming back early, and then, oh, Lonergan's going to be tipped off that something's going on here, and then what's going to happen when he finds out that there's none of that. It's just everyone falls for what's put in front of them. There's no point during this thing that Lonergan seems to be catching on that this is fake. I don't know, to me, it's kind of bizarre, because he's a smart guy, and like, wouldn't you, yeah, like, wouldn't you like do research into... Because it's being presented as this elaborate thing. Yeah, and it's basically the scam is that it's set up as like an off-track race or bookie operation, where they're manipulating a time difference and reporting the races, so they're able to bet on a race that's already been won, which kind of raises a lot of red flags, like, even if there is that delay, wouldn't any booking operation... Like, let's say you're taking bets on a race that starts at 2, wouldn't you have that be the shutoff for bets, even if you're not going to get the results until 2.15 or whatever? You still don't take bets after 2, so it's like... I don't want to be super nitpicky, but I think that's one of the things that the team should be, you know, make the movie much more interesting to see. How do they pull this off? How do they make him believe that this is a real thing? What's he going to do when he calls his guys to investigate? What's going on here? So, it's more... It's really... It's like they did a shell game, rather than a deep thinking about these things. Shell game as far as setting it up, meaning that it was only superficially... Yeah, and we're getting... We're kind of at an arm's length from the actual scene, because we're so preoccupied with whoever's chasing Robert Redford at that time. We're so focused on him, and he's kind of... He's a bit ancillary to the racetrack itself. He's kind of the screen, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, he's not really involved in what's going on. You know what's fun? In the office where they did this, do you remember? They set up a sting, but did it for a comedic effort, because there was this competing paper salesman, so they wanted to find out how he did it. So, they thought, well, we'll put him up in a fake room, make it look like he's talking to a... Trying to sell his paper, and so they had Meredith be the pretend boss, and then they're watching from the other... She's in every episode of The Office. So, they... Deleted scenes? No, it's not deleted scenes. Anyway, but then Meredith... It all starts going awry, and Meredith starts coming on to this paper salesman, and then they got to bring in... Oscar, you go in, and... Okay, yeah, yeah. She keeps spoiling him. But anyway... I was thinking of the one where they were stealing a copy or something from the Unicabridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, the Unicabridge. No, this was... They were setting it up like an actual kind of... Sort of like a sting, except that at the end, they weren't going to tell him about it. They just wanted to learn his moves. So, anyway, the only reason I bring that up is because it was very... Like, it's kind of how you're describing it. They didn't think very deeply about it. They were just like, this would be a good idea. Let's do this and let it roll. But instead, it's like what would more commonly happen is all sorts of... People don't act the way you expect them to act. And then you have these things go on, and then pretty soon... Yeah, there's just so many opportunities to add tension that I just don't think... Like, how can... Lonergan is never even close to figuring out that Bedford's the same guy that his men are trying to kill. Yeah. And it's like, that just seems to be right on the table. Like, his... I mean, Lonergan drops him off at his apartment where Lonergan's men are waiting to kill him. So it seems like it's right there. But we never get... He fits the description that they were given. Yeah, and so, I mean, I have a lot of tension of maybe when he's meeting with Lonergan, maybe one of his hitmen come in to get orders and say, hey, that's the guy we're trying to kill. And then this whole thing with the waitress, I just think, is introduced too late. And it's almost like she's shot by some guy we don't even know yet. And it's like, when he's on the way to the sting, so there's no tension to that scene. It's just like, okay, I guess that ties up that plot. But they do the subtle nose thing. Yeah, maybe that's a clue, because Pallman was really cool. Yeah, no, he is. And I just wish there's... I feel like there's a really entertaining movie going on with Newman and Eileen Brennan and Ray Walston and Harry. We're just better about Robert Redford. But we're talking about... we're just following Robert Redford. I don't dislike Robert Redford, but he's just kind of boring in this movie. I like him later on, probably, maybe, all the President's Men and beyond. Okay. I have one other question. Yeah. Did Norman Rockwell do the illustrations? No. No. No. Yeah, they're very good. They have a Rockwell style. Yeah. I did look up who did it. I forgot who it was. It was anyone I had heard of. Okay. I hope they got his permission. All right, so I'm guessing that you would not rank it as high as 36 to do it again. I don't hate it. There's really nothing that I like about it. There's nothing that I think is well... I mean, I like parts of that train scene, but also I don't think the scene works in terms of the overall plot. Because it sets up Monaghan too early and then you have no villain because he's just a weakling from that point on. So, yeah, I actually had it... my original ranking, I had it at 80. Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, I just don't... I'm like, what am I going to rank it above... I don't know. The Hurd Locker, at least. I know. The Hurd Locker, I have way above it. But I have... other movies we've talked about, I have... I think I like everything better except for possibly American Beauty. I do have that ranked worse. It's just that... You've watched this movie a bunch of times, though. I have watched it a bunch of times, yeah. So there's something very watchable about it. Yeah, but I'll... I mean, I'll re-watch it and kind of get what I'm missing, but I don't... I've never seen that. And I did... I have to say, as a kid I did like it. I kind of took... I took piano lessons... It's a fine play ending. You took piano lessons? I took piano lessons to do Batman Trainwreck. You know, I kind of did the animation. When did you do piano lessons? Like, I was in seventh, eighth grade. Yeah, I have a ton of secrets. Is that really a secret? It's not a secret. I took piano lessons, but I could never do... You took them early? Through school. No, after we moved back to San Diego. Okay. Yeah, I could never do... I had to progress in the course. I just can't do two different things with both my hands at the same time. I could never. It's so... really, you know, it blinds out. But, yeah, I mean, I... Not a fan of it? Yeah, I mean, I don't hate it. I just don't... there's really not much I like about it. Okay. I mean, I have more negative feelings about American Beauty. But at the same time, like, if I were to have to... like, if I were teaching a film class and I have to use one or the other, I think there's more... Like, you know, American Beauty does do some... the way it kind of... I can't do it. ...secures these middle class... there's some skill in that. Yeah, I can see what you're saying. It annoys me greatly. Yeah. But I just don't... like... And I don't even regret that it won the Oscar... the Oscar site year, because, you know, it's just... You know, a bunch of people took a vote two months after the movie came out, and it was just... it was popular. It was the 70s. But what really flummoxes me is that, like, 50 years later, it's still, like, very much revered. And, I mean, there's so much better con artist movies, so... What else besides Ocean's Eleven? Well, all the Ocean's movies, but... Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, House of Games... That'd be a fun watch to do, is... The Lavender Hill Mob. The 10S... Yeah. Either heist movies or con artist movies. Yeah, con artist movies. Yeah, this one won, like, my top 10. Okay, wow. Okay. I... yeah, I just... Sorry, Mike, but I just don't... Sorry, Mike. Oh, Mike's in there. Yeah, yeah. Well... All right, so what'd it win? Best picture, best director? Yeah, it won... Oh, well, thank you, I better read this book. Oh, that is so funny. I don't know what you asked it, but I feel like whatever you asked... I better put this in the text. Yes, because you didn't put your question in... Usually Dennis will list both his questions and the limerick that it had. Wow, you're odd to me. This time he didn't put the question, but let me state the limerick about this thing. In movie land there's a tale to be told about a flick that left me feeling cold. The sting it was called, but alas, I appalled, for its charm and wit I could not behold. So what... how did you phrase it? I'm sorry, the limerick about how much this thing sucks. Okay. It's a pretty good limerick. It is pretty good. Yeah, it had 10 Oscar nominations. Okay, that's a lot. Only one acting, Paul Newman. I mean Robert Redford? Robert Redford. Oh yeah, you look disappointed. Yeah, I don't... For best actor? For best actor, yeah. Oh. Yeah, Newman's... I don't think really had much to do. I think they'd be supporting. I've heard that Robert Shaw was very... He demanded about the title billing and was adamant that the studio not promote him as a supporting actor, so that may have contributed to why he wasn't nominated for best supporting actor for playing Lonnie. Okay. Yeah, even... Okay. So then what else? Did it win for screenplay? Won seven. Yeah. Yeah, so it won best director, screenplay... Oh, he didn't win for best actor. No. Okay. He lost to Jack Lemmon for Save the Tiger. Okay, so... I never heard of that. Yeah. I haven't seen Save the Tiger. Was that Tatum O'Neill, the child one? Yeah. Well, so the acting winners are Tatum O'Neill for Paper Man. It's also a con artist movie. Yeah, why is she dressed like a boy? Well, I don't know. That's how she dressed for the Oscars. She's a kid. Okay. I'm just curious. They have her in a little tux. I've run the Jackson one best actress for A Touch of Glass. And then John Housman won for the contest. Housman? Yes. Don't know it. He won the Oscar. You know how he won it? Gatham O'Swimps. He earned it. I don't get it, but okay. Oh! I remember he did those commercials. Oh! We're probably dating ourselves. I don't think it's so logical. Some sort of business. Yeah. We make money the old-fashioned way. We earn it. We earn it. Yes. He plays a law professor in a movie about law students. I like the paper cases. Okay. Yeah, but anyways, the Sting won picture director, screenplay, art direction, costume, film editing, and scoring adaptation. Okay. I'm a fan. I'm sorry. Okay. I don't feel as bad for falling asleep now. I really was afraid of disappointing you for a moment. All right. So, the Sting. We've said everything. Now we get to find out what's next. Yeah. Oh, wait. Where did you rank it? You ranked it 80. Oh, yeah. That's what I wrote. No, it's not what I wrote. Slant rated it a 64. You definitely brought it lower. It was going to be maybe even top... It was definitely going to be top 30. I don't get it. It was definitely going to be top 30, because look at all those. 16 IMDBs. It's just very comics. People get a lot of enjoyment out of it, but it's just all the same. Well, that last scene was very entertaining. I had no idea what was going to happen. Yeah, because it's almost impossible to follow. All right. But anyway, so let's get up to number 30. All right. My guesses are the same as they've been for the last two months. I think you should win this time. Oh, really? I do, too. So, No Country for Old Men. Yeah. Wah, wah. It's not going to be that one. That's what you said, right? It's not going to be Old Country for Old Men. It might be Amadeus, but you say no. You think it's going to be Spotlight. I think Spotlight is coming up soon. Parasite and Moonlight, that's what I have. I thought the French Connection. Forest Gump, The Departed, and Twelve Years a Slave. You're going to add another one? Yeah, I like quite a bit, but we didn't touch the 60s. I mean, for all seasons. It still sticks with me from the 60s. I'm going to put In the Name of the Night on my list. That's good. From 1967. Good year. I think it should be 35, but... I think it's going to be Forest Gump. But I hope not, because I think Forest Gump is a better movie than that. All right, so 35. Oh, wow, Ben-Hur. Ben-Hur. I thought it was not. Yeah, okay. Okay, Ben-Hur. Interesting. What do you know about Ben-Hur? I know quite a bit about it. What do you think Ben-Hur is going to be? Ben-Hur, I think it... You've seen that, haven't you? No. Wow, okay. There's big stones in the thing, so I think it takes place... Gosh, I don't know. It's probably old, like Roman era or something. Yeah. Is it Roman era? Uh-huh. Okay. Okay. Ben-Hur was the guy who did Chariot Races, right? Okay. Wait, wait. Is he the one... Is Charlton Heston in Ben-Hur? Yes. There are Chariot Races, though. Okay. This is about a race, then, isn't it? Yeah. Is it the first Olympics? Okay. We'll get into it all next week. Your first viewing of Ben-Hur. Ben-Hur, number 35. Yeah, from 1959. 1959, directed by... George C. Scott. William Wyler. Oh, wow. We have had a lot of those movies. Yeah, well, this is our second one that's a winner. Okay. We just had... No, that was a Billy... From here to eternity, beat the Roman Holiday. Yeah, because Billy Wilder... Wilder, not Wyler. Right. But there's two... There's William Wyler and Billy Wilder. Yes. But Billy comes from William. Yeah. Yeah, so it's almost the same thing. Well, they're both great directors. This is the second of three Best Picture winners from William Wyler. Okay. And so, yeah, Ben-Hur. Don't put it off until the last minute. It's the longest Best Picture winner. Oh, no, really? How long? You might watch it in a couple of cities. Okay. At least close to four hours. Oh, my gosh! Okay. There's an intermission. Okay. Okay, so we'll be back next week with Ben-Hur. Ben-Hur. Oh, no. We'll be back next week.