EP10HenryS

Frankie is hosting a recovery circle and has invited his friend Henry, who is celebrating 35 years of recovery. Henry shares a story about meeting a newcomer at a 12-step meeting and inviting him to another meeting. Henry emphasizes the importance of connecting with others in recovery and helping them find their way. He reflects on his own journey and the difficulties he faced growing up in a dysfunctional home. He started using drugs at a young age and found a sense of belonging and relief through substance abuse. He dropped out of school and continued using drugs until he was arrested for truancy. Despite his struggles, Henry eventually found Narcotics Anonymous and has been in recovery ever since. Hello, welcome to the recovery circle. My name is Frankie. I'm an addict. I'm also your host. Today I'm here with a good friend of mine. I want to introduce everyone to Henry. Welcome, Henry. Hey, thank you, Frankie. Great to be here. I'm happy to have you here. I've been asking you for a long time, buddy. Yeah, I'm happy to finally be able to make it. Yes, same here. I want to mention that Henry's celebrating 35 years of recovery this week, correct? Yes, Monday. 35 years. Wow, so what year was that now? What, 89? 89. Wow, that sounds like a long time ago. Yeah, it was definitely a while ago. Yeah, so I want to congratulate you on that. How's the week been going? It's been a really exciting week because I've been busy and what has happened, people have been requesting that I go to certain places and things have happened. I was at a 12-step meeting earlier in the week out of town, out of my area, and I went there to meet a couple of people then who couldn't make it. But what happened, I met a gentleman who was brand new walking in the door, 30 days out of rehab, and he was new and I had a conversation with him and invited him to come up to my area on another day. Just pointing out to him in the list of meetings that are local to where I may go, and he showed up yesterday. That's cool, man. He showed up and the beauty was that I didn't have to be the one that he really connected with because there were many people in the room who reached out to him and that was what mattered. It wasn't me, it was about the people that were there that connected with him. And when I left, 45 minutes later he was in deep conversation in the parking lot with an experienced member. And I felt like, you know what, that's what it's about. Because allowing somebody to have an opportunity for the seed to be planted, because it will never be the same from this point forward. Whether he stays or not, this is going to be there. Right, right. And he'll know that he has a choice. Oh, that's beautiful. And you've been staying in contact with him since? If I see him in the groups, I mean, it's been a couple of days and like I said, I give people, you know, I give them ways to contact me and it's really up to them. But again, to me, the goal is that they connect and they, you know, they start to participate and reach out because that's what's most important, that they do it with somebody. Get them in, get them involved. Yeah, because I'm not the way or the solution, but I know what it is and if I help other people, point them in that direction, then they can find their way. Gotcha. As long as he connects and gets help, that's what's important. Right, well that's beautiful, man. So in celebrating your anniversary, you're still thinking about the newcomer, pulling in the newcomer. Yeah. That's awesome. Can you remember when you were the newcomer? Did you get that type of... Yeah, I think that's something that you sort of really never want to forget. Right. Because, you know, it's easy to forget how difficult and how hard it was to get clean, you know, because just having a desire, it wasn't enough, you know. Right. Because I was dealing with something that was so much bigger than me, so much stronger than me, and I needed to, you know, what really helped me was really finding out that there were other people that had been where I was, and they found a way out. Because they became my hope. Right. You know, because I had none. So you know what, let's, I mean like everyone does, they come on the podcast, we get to know you. Yeah. We want to get to know Henry. All right. All right, so at the end of your road you found Narcotics Anonymous? Yes. Let's talk about that road. Okay. Take us back to when you were young, you know, where you were, how you grew up. Yeah, I grew up in Hell's Kitchen, New York. And, you know, what I remember about childhood was being afraid, you know. My father, I really didn't have a relationship as like a dad, you know. We lived in the same apartment, but our interactions were always some sort of discipline coming my way. And I never understood why, you know. And so there was more emotional abuse and fear, you know, and as a child I lived in a lot of fear. And, you know, when you're a child you don't really even know that that's what's happening, because you're looking for some sort of comfort somewhere. And I remember my brother and I, we used to sneak out of the house every day just to get away. And we would go spend time with, listen, this is in Chelsea, in Manhattan. There were no playgrounds, there's like factories in that area, you know, parking lots. So what years were these? This was probably early 70s. Early 70s, early to mid 70s. And how many were in the home? There was myself, two brothers, and I had an older stepsister, and my mom and my father. And, you know, we snuck out as often as we could, and we'd end up at beaches with like other people from the block, other kids' parents, you know. And I remember my brother used to, we used to go to the playground, and he used to want to smoke cigarettes, or he used to pick up cigarette butts from the floor to smoke. And I couldn't smoke cigarettes, like I couldn't, my lungs couldn't take it, thank God. And then eventually at some point, my mother separated from my father, and we went to live probably about a mile and a half away. And then my mother remarried to a gentleman. Turns out, you know, he had a drinking issue, you know, and we really, you know, he was in no position to really be a father figure. And so there was a lot of dysfunction there. How old were you when this guy came into your life? I probably was about eight or nine. Okay, still young. Yeah, probably eight. And, you know, without any sort of guidance, you know, again, I looked to the streets for connection in some way, you know. And looking for connection in the streets introduced me to a lot of people that had similar situations, right? Kids that weren't raised by their parents either, you know. Listen, I was vulnerable and, you know, long story short, I did what I had to do in order to connect. And, you know, when you're a child, you don't really see anything wrong with getting high. I mean, you know, it's like, hey, what could be wrong with this? It feels good, right? I feel connected to other kids. I feel finally like I belong somewhere. And anybody who tries to warn you about drugs, I always thought that they just don't want you to have fun, you know. Yeah, they're dull and you're shy. Right, and, you know, and so that's where I feel like I really connected with what I thought were friends. Right. And how old were you when you started, you know, messing around with drugs? Probably, I would say somewhere between 10 and 11. Oh. Yeah, and I remember between 10 and 11 something. You know, I definitely acted out a lot in school. I did a lot of stuff for attention. So you didn't get great grades? No, because I couldn't behave because I wanted to entertain people and get them to laugh and bring attention to myself. Like? Like just rebelling in the classrooms, you know. You know, if we went on a school trip, a field trip, I would be the one that they would have to discipline because I was breaking the rules. And so that was my way of looking for the attention until then one day a kid brought a joint to the schoolyard. And it was probably like 10 or 12 of us, you know, around this person, like, hey, hey, I got it. And some kids tried it and they went on about their way and I tried it. And it was like this feeling like, okay, relief, like I felt like, wow, I want to feel this more often, you know. And so the kid who brought it became my best friend, basically, you know, because that's who I wanted to be around because that's what he had access to. And so after that, basically school was just something that I did because I had to. And as soon as I got to the age where legally my parents wouldn't get in trouble if I didn't attend school, as soon as I hit that age, I stopped going, which was high school. I went to high school for like half an hour, basically. And I walked out and I wanted nothing to do with it because all, you know, by the time I was done with elementary school, I went to junior high school and I went to school 12, 13 years old. I was high every day because we got high in the morning before school. We got high at lunchtime, you know. And so I would go to school high. I would end up in the dean's office every day smoking weed, drinking beer. And what was the reaction at home when, you know, I'm sure word got back to your parents. Well, at that point, my mother, I guess, I don't know if she felt kind of helpless. But let me say this, though. It seems like in those days, my mother didn't know that I wasn't going to school until I got arrested by truancy. Because we used to go to 42nd Street and watch, like, kung fu movies, like, you know, three movies for $3 or whatever. And we would get high in the theater. And we did that every day. And then the city created this, like, truancy program where they had officers in the train stations. And they had a place where they would take you if you were underage. And they grabbed me and took me in there. And that was, it took for me not to go to school for six months before my mother even knew that I wasn't. Like, now if your child doesn't show up at school, they'll call you. Yeah, we used to get phone calls home. Yeah, they didn't do that. And, you know, by the time my mother found out, I'm sure she was wrapped up in the problems that she was having with my stepfather, you know, with his drinking. Was it prevalent in the house, his drinking? No, it was more, no, it was just one of those things, like, work all week and don't come home on Friday night. Come home Saturday at some point because you were out drinking the whole time. Right. You know, and occasionally it was happening at home, you know, because sometimes, you know, people drink and then they want to tell you, like, how to be a man. They want to have deep conversations. And... He tried to have those with you? He tried to have those with me. And I didn't know what was going on except that I couldn't listen to him. And it just, and all it really did was, I started... Did you respect this guy? No, not really. But I didn't, I didn't even, no, I didn't. Because he really wasn't engaged with me as a child, you know? Right. Right. So, you know, so eventually I would go on my way to school but never walk into the school because I had a friend that lived a few buildings down. And we just went to his house and got high every day instead of going into the school. Hence, then I got arrested. And my mother found out. And by that time, like, you know, they get you through the junior high school, like, graduate, yeah, because you have to move on, you know? They got to get you out of here. So when you were arrested, how old were you when you got arrested? I was probably 13 or 14. Okay, so you're a youthful offender. What was the charge? No, it's just, they just released me and... Oh, I see. The truancy officers picked you up and... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Got you. It was truancy. It wasn't like a crime because it was more like on the parents, like, your child has to be in school. Right. And so what I did was I stopped going to that area where I got arrested or where I got picked up until I was of age, you know? Once you got to high school, then you could be a dropout. They didn't care. And so I graduated to junior high school because they're not going to keep you there. And then after that, I went to, I didn't attend high school. I walked in and I walked out, and I never really, like, I think about it now, like, what, why was it so difficult for me to be able to sit down in the school? Like, I could never do that, you know? Yeah. And I never really had, like, I never had someone to tell, hey, listen, I don't seem to be able to sit in the classroom. Like, I don't, can somebody help me? I didn't know how to ask for, you know, I had no guidance. And it was a lot easier to go and hang out with the guys, you know? So that was, you know, basically, once I got, once the truancy was not an issue, then progression set in and I started to get involved in heavier, heavier usage. So up to the point of whatever age you became, what, maybe 16, something like that, right? Like, between 14 and 15. So now you're, quote unquote, of age where they're not going to even bother with you. Yeah. Up to that point, just strictly weed, maybe alcohol? Yeah. And I wasn't really good with alcohol. I'm a horrible drinker. Yeah, okay. So weed. Weed and then some cocaine. And then I had some friends that really got heavy into, like, sniffing heroin. And then some of them started working in, like, dope spots on the block, you know? And I tried it a couple of times and it really scared me. Because I remember watching, like, the heroin addicts from the 70s that have big puffed-out arms with abscesses. I remember watching people nodding out. Okay. And there was something about that that really scared me. And, you know, when you do heroin, what I noticed is initially you get sick. Okay. And I didn't like that because I thought, I don't want to be sick. And thank God that that scared me off. Because from what I found out, that after you get sick, then you get to the part that you enjoy, you know? And I'm glad I didn't give myself that chance. Right. So, like, I've experienced the same thing. And, you know, multiple times relapsing on heroin, opiates, same thing. It's like your body doesn't want it because we make our own good feelings, right? So we don't want it, we react to it. And then once we get it artificially, we stop making it naturally. And now we need it. Catch-22, man. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So you got to get through it not feeling good in order for it to feel good. And it's funny how not a lot of people just stop like you did. Yeah. A lot of people push through that. Yeah. And get a habit. Yeah, yeah. I can't even tell you what really, because I wasn't done using. I just didn't want to use that because of what I saw. And I saw people physically sick. Right. Because they didn't have it. And I was more like an up type person. You know, I wanted something that was going to pick me up. Yeah, you wanted uppers, not downers. Gotcha. Yep, yep. And I remember, you know, by that time, you know, I had mentioned before, we lived in an apartment in Hell's Kitchen. And right outside the window was the park, Hell's Kitchen Park. And there's basketball courts there. There's a playground. And we're all teenagers. And we're playing basketball. And I could smell when my mother's, when it was dinner time, because I could smell the food, right? So you were right there. Right there. Yeah. But then when the using got heavier, I didn't want to be there because she'd know. Because she would see me. And so I would always try to get my friends to let's go to the other park, you know, because, eh, it's not really good here. And the thing was I wanted to hide my using from my mother. And what were you using at that time? Coke? At that time it was more, yeah, it was sniffing and smoking weed. And then, you know, there was a time where we, you know, most of it, you know, we go to the movies as kids, you know. And I remember hearing this story about, like, I was a Richard Pryor fan as a kid. And I remember reading the story that it was on the news that he got burned. And we were like, oh, my God, what happened? He was freebasing and he caught on fire. Right. And that was the beginning of, whoa, what is that? And it seemed like right after that, that became the end drug. He popularized it by getting burned by it. Yeah, because it wasn't like no one said, well, you know, we don't want that to happen to us. It's like, whoa, we got to check that out. Richard Pryor's doing it. Right. You know, he just didn't do it right. Right. Well, from what I've heard, I've never done it. Yeah. But I hear it's very flammable. Yeah. Yeah, because you're probably going to be dealing with a torch and alcohol and stuff like that. And shortly after that, that became a common drug in Hell's Kitchen. Smoking cocaine. Yeah, smoking cocaine. And this is what years would this be? Early 80s now? Yeah, this was, yeah, this was, let's see. Ed Koch? Yeah, yeah. I probably was about 14 the first time I tried it. And I remember one day I had a toothache in a winter evening. And I remember going, because listen, we had like buildings that we would, tenement buildings where we would hang out in the lobbies to get high. And people hated us because they lived there. And I knew where my friends are. So I remember going out one day, and I was looking for my friends, and I was like, listen, I need some cocaine because I have a toothache. And I want to rub some on it to deal with my toothache. So that's what I'm looking for. So I'm looking for them, not knowing that you can go to a pharmacy and grab something to put on there. Like Ambosol or something. Yeah, you know, the cocaine. And I remember walking into the building, and they were freebasing. In the vestibule, in the hallway? Yes, in the stairway. And a friend of mine said, you know like the first one's free, right? What is it with that, right? So a friend of mine turns to me and goes, oh, try this. He gave me a hit of some freebase, and I came out of that, and I turned around and I kissed him on the cheek. And I said, thank you. That's what I've been looking for my whole life. And from that point forward, I chased that escape, that rush. Never to really sort of get it again. Have you ever been asked to describe what that feeling was like? Like if you could think back on it? Like what was so amazing about it? Besides saying it just was. Yeah, just the rush. The rush, and I felt like I weighed, I was as light as a feather. You know, and there wasn't any problem in my life at that point. Because I was in ecstasy, you know. Off the charts. Yeah, yeah. But little did I know that, because I kind of felt like, well, I guess I'm just going to do this for the rest of my life. Like why not, right? I didn't know it was going to become like a job, right? Full-time, non-paying. Yeah, like your wages are going to be misery, degradation, desperation. Those are the wages. So talk about that progression. I mean, how did it go from that one-time glamorous, beautiful feeling to a job? Yeah, well, I continued to chase that. And eventually I would try to get like jobs, like locally, you know. And the problem was I couldn't get to a paycheck. I couldn't get back to work after the paycheck, you know. Like I would show up for work and it was only about as soon as I get the paycheck, you know, it was over. And eventually, you know, I was living with my mother and I have an older brother who is deceased now. He had had enough and he told me I had to do something. And I remember coming home and my belongings were tossed down the steps, which wasn't much because I didn't have much. So you were living with your mom? Yeah. And your older brother came home? No, he was living there too. But he decided himself that you had to go? Yeah, yeah. How much older than you? Just a year. Yeah, he was definitely a year older. Did he feel to you as if he wasn't like a true older brother or were you more like same age? No, no. Did you look up to him? Well, he was more like a protector. You know, my brother was more the type of, I got your back, I'm a protector, you know. But I wasn't really, I was too busy using to sort of have that kind of connection with him because, you know, it just was what it was. And then eventually I was told that I need to get help and I don't even remember how I ended up in a drug treatment program. I don't remember how they pursued it, but I know that I was on my way to Queens for some sort of intake. And I remember going to this place and they packed my bag and they took me there and I knew that I wasn't going back home. And I remember sitting with a counselor, an intake counselor, and he said, well, this is like an 18-month program. And it was close to Thanksgiving, you know, it was like November 21st of 1985. And he said, this is an 18-month program, you don't get time to go out, not now, you know, and so he basically laid out what it was going to be like. And I was like, I can't be in a program during Thanksgiving. I mean, it's a family thing, right? And he was like, this isn't going to work. I was not at the Thanksgiving table ever, right? Now you want to be there. Now I want to be at the Thanksgiving table. You're so thankful for everything. Right. And so I remember them telling me that I was an addict and that I could no longer get high. And I walked out of that room like, how in the world are you supposed to do that? Because that's all that I knew. From a very early age. Yeah, I was like, that's not possible. And I remember looking up and when I walked out of the office, there was a sign that said, one day at a time. You know, I was like, hmm, okay. So that was my first taste of some sort of recovery. But that's not your clean date. No, no. I went through that program for 18 months. Wow, so what type of program? It was a TC. In Queens? It's an office in Queens, but they sent us upstate. Okay. So it was about 14 months, 13 months upstate. And so I spent 13 months up there. And it was based on a lot of discipline and confrontation. They gave you a lot of responsibilities. And it's more like any shortcut that you took or in any way that you tried to deviate from your responsibilities that they gave you, it's like you were getting high. That's what they basically try to ingrain in you, that if you do that, you're going to get high. So I was kind of really good at following the rules because I'm like, I don't want to get high. It's almost like a test. I'm like, I don't want to fail the test, so I'm going to do it right. I'm going to do this, you know. And so I didn't break the rules. I followed, you know. And then when we got beyond a year, they bring you down into like a reentry phase, which is back in Queens again. And then I would see the people that were a stage ahead of me, and there was like a reentry phase. And they had to do certain things in order to be released back into society. Like you could have your own place, and you could graduate the program because they graduated you. And, you know, I wanted to be out. And so I was not set up professionally with the sort of income that was necessary. I was still a kid, you know. How old were you at the time? I was like 20, 21. Okay. And but I, you know what I did? I told them what I thought they wanted to hear in order for them to graduate me because I figured that out. And I got what I wanted, which is to be done with the program and out. Which is addict behavior. Yeah, yeah. I told them. And you know what? You know, sometimes when you're young, like there's defiance, there's denial, and there's sometimes, sometimes you just don't even know the questions, you know. Like I couldn't think at that 21. I was getting high all my adolescent years. So what would I know, you know? And, you know, just not to cut you off, but to relate to you, I don't know if you know, but at the same age I went to a TC. I spent a couple of years there as well. Went through the whole reentry phase. So I understand. And I, too, got through it, not really understanding how to get through it. But a big part of it for me was a people-pleasing thing as well. Like I wanted to do what I could do to make people happy with me. Okay. You know what I mean? Like they would give me rules. Yeah. And I would follow them. Right. Not so much because I want to change, but I want to make sure, I don't want them to be upset with me. Got you. You know what I mean? And I spent my whole treatment like that. Whereas I'm not really getting the message I should be getting, but I'm getting through it and I, you know. Right, right. Yeah. I'm finding a way. And sometimes you look at the people that get in trouble and you think like they're never going to get it. Right. True. But at least we're finding out who they are. The ones that are quiet, that never, right? Yeah. Very true. Right. You know, I ended up graduating, but I went back to my mother's house. Back to the Hell's Kitchen. Yeah, because it was acceptable, right, as part of the program that you had a place to live. And I went there and I started to go to meetings because while I was in that treatment center, there was a group that came in to bring the message. I didn't know who they were at the time because I wasn't interested. I was sitting in the back. Like I said, I didn't even know the question. Not paying attention to details. No, no. Right. I'm not that bad, you know. And, but I knew that when I was done with that program, I couldn't go back to the neighborhood. I knew that that wasn't going to work. If you were going to stop using drugs. If I was a teen. Right. So I went to where I felt safe and I went and I started hanging around at 12 Step Fellowship, right? I just started hanging around the people and I built some friendships and we had that in common. And that was enough for me. I really had no interest in working another program because I thought I just finished the program. So I don't really need anything else. And there's nothing that we want to hear more than you got to do some work. Right. And basically I was just removed from society for a year and a half. That's all that really happened. But you're naive. It's like, all right, I had time away. I'm okay now. Yeah. Yeah. And eventually I had issues that I didn't even know I had. So eventually what started to happen was that I started to look for other ways to fill the void, to feel comfortable. Okay. So you're not using drugs. You're back home with your mom. Yes. But you're still kind of feeling empty in ways. Yeah. Yeah. Something's missing. I remember riding the subway in New York City and standing up in a crowded train and feeling like every single person in that train was staring at me. And they saw everything that was wrong with me. That's the way it felt. That was my starting point after I stopped using. Okay. Your starting point? Well, starting in the sense where, like, when you took the drugs away, that's where I was emotionally and mentally. That's where I was. Right. So that's like your, right, that's your jumping off point now. Yeah. Like, that's how scared I was and paranoid. Without the drugs. That's who you are. Right. Gotcha. And I was looking for relief because, and I didn't know it. Kind of like when you were a kid making a scene in school, getting in trouble. Right. Right. Right. And I looked for, and what happened was, one of the things that became available was validation from a female. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I remember having about 18 months clean, hanging around meetings, and meeting a woman in recovery, and then getting involved with that. And that became like, looking at it now, that became like my God. Because that filled the void. If everything was right in that situation, I felt secure. I felt okay with myself. Until it wasn't. And then how did you feel? Then I felt like I tried to hold on for dear life because I didn't want to feel a separation. You know, that it can't happen. You know? And so I held on for dear life to the point where I knew that the relationship was, because for me it was like, I'm looking for a lifetime thing. And for the other person it was like, I'm just looking to have fun for a little while. You know, it's an older woman who had other things on the horizon that were coming, and for her it had to end. And I was like, no. And I wouldn't let go. And then she really wasn't even committed to the program either. So what happened was, one day we were out at a party, a social event. And as we were walking in, she says, I just want to let you know that I'm going to have a drink tonight. And I was like, oh, okay. And I said, I guess I'll join her. Okay, can I stop for a second? And so, like, how long have you been in the program out, quote unquote, clean? I was clean about 20 months. Okay. So you're approaching two years. Approaching two years. And you were with this woman for how long up to that point? About a year. And, you know, I was just not capable of, like, living in reality at that point, right? Because it just was not a situation that was for me, but I was not capable of seeing that. Yeah, but just to paint a better picture, and how long was she in the program for? She was new when I met her. Okay, okay. But she was, like, one of those well-dressed, attractive women that hung around the meeting occasionally. It seemed like she had it together. Right. But she didn't really dive into, and then she had, like, a child, a young son that had been taken away from her, and she was in the process of trying to get him back. So there was a lot of drama there. There was a child father who was in prison who was going to come out eventually. So there were some flags that you would have saw if you didn't have your head up your cooler. Right. Yeah, I'd be like, no, man. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so she turns around. She had a party, and she just dropped. She says, I'm going to drink today. And then after we were there, she says, I want to get high one more time and see what it's like. And because the relationship was over, in my mind, I felt like, oh, if I get high. You could save it. We're going to have this connection and this bond that's going to be unbreakable. So I'm going to go with her. It's worth it. Yeah. And we both got high all night. What was the drug of choice? We went in with crack. Yeah. That was her choice also. And after that one night, she stopped, and she says, I feel disgusted. I don't want to deal with that anymore. And I went on a run for, like, another seven months and lost everything all over again. Because when I met her, I had a job. You know, I was working. I wasn't making crazy money. But living with mom, had a decent check, had a car, money, you know, clothes. I was okay. And I started using again. And I couldn't shut it off. So when you said that she couldn't do it anymore, that means she stopped? She stopped. Did she get back into the rooms? No. But you don't know? No, not really. Not really. I went to go to, like, counseling. And, you know, I can't even, I don't even know if she was an addict. I mean, I don't know. I can't say that to someone else. I do know that I still tried to get her to accept me. Because now it's like I'm the victim. You see what happened to me because of you? Wow. So now you should be, you know, you should be taking me back because of what you did. You know? Yeah. And I put her through some difficulty, right? Is this what you meant when you said you had more issues that were going to pop up? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's codependency issues. Yeah. And so I was out there for, and I burned every bridge all over again. Were you working? I was working, and I think I just stopped going to work. I just quit my job. And, you know, I ended up eventually getting back to the rooms. And I don't really remember how, except I remember, you know, when you're using, like, you could put me in one square mile of a neighborhood, and I'll turn that into 20 miles of walking, because that's how much walking I did to go get the next one, the hustle, you know, this part to that part, and just a constant grind. And I remember sitting in the park getting high overnight, having a seizure, waking up, and the paramedics were there, and they say, do you want to go to the hospital? We need to get you checked out. And I'd say, no, because I'm not done getting high yet. I'm not going to the hospital, you know? And eventually I ended up back in the rooms. You know, I remember walking through Hell's Kitchen one day, and it was probably the first time I ever cried out to God for help, because I had the foxhole prayers, but I never really honestly from my heart asked for help. And that was the first time where I begged God to please help me, because I couldn't even walk anymore. My knee had given out. And shortly after that, I ended up somehow back into a meeting, and I had a different mindset, a different approach, and I was desperate. And people helped me. You know, there was a guy who I used to pack two sandwiches every day I lived with my mother to take with me because I was going down to what was then St. Mark's Place, where there were meetings all day. I'd pack two sandwiches, and I'd get on the train, and then someone at the meeting would give me two subway tokens so that I could come back the next day. Because you couldn't give me cash, because that'll only get us started again. And I don't even remember if I ever ate the sandwiches, but I ate every day. And I would get home late at night, like clean, you know? And I don't even remember how, but I was around the right people in the right place. And eventually, I started to get some relief, and I started to accumulate a little bit of clean time again, right? And then I was able to be reemployed by the job that I just walked out on. So I started to do some things. I really still have not let go of this idea where all I needed to go on with in my life. But I never really let go of that. And so what happened was I had about two years clean, and there was a young lady who showed up to recovery, a young Puerto Rican girl. And she had two weeks out of rehab, but she was as cute as a button. You waved to clean time. I was an exception. I waved to clean time, right? And you know, the truth is, I guess there was an attraction about me because I was working, I had a car, right? So it was like people kind of, okay, this may be fun, right? She didn't know better either. And I got involved with her, and that wasn't what was intended either for me. That was my will, you know? And eventually, we stood together a couple of years, and I remember she would say things like, hey, you know, we were living together, we got engaged. And I remember one time her saying, you know, I feel like I never really gave myself a chance to see what the world is like, right? And my response was, well, maybe you're right, but your life is kind of good, right? Look how it turned out anyway, right? No one wants to hear that, right? Or you were scared. Right. And so I brushed that away until one day she didn't come home on a Friday after work. And that conversation that we had, I didn't connect it because it was a while ago. And that was the most uncomfortable thing I've ever faced in my life, the amount of anxiety that I felt, because especially when I found out that nothing really happened to her. Because the first thing in my mind, something must have happened to her. And then you go to the police, and most people kind of know these things are common. They're like, you know what? Give it some time. Right. And eventually what it was is that she wanted out, and that was the only way she felt that she could do it. She couldn't tell you. Straight up. Right. Right. And not only that, she engaged with another man to sort of help that process on her side. Right? And the only thing I saw for me was like, well, I wasn't good enough. Right? That's the only thing I could think of. It had nothing to do with the timing. Right? And so because of that, it helped me to get in touch with, why do you feel like you're not good enough? You know what I mean? And that was the question. And I had to learn to spend some time alone and connect with God. It wasn't because I wanted to. It just happened that way. Now, what made you feel that God was the answer? Because not a lot of people turn to God right away. Yeah. Well, I think because I was more engaged in the program this time. Because, you know, I got into recovery, and it's not uncommon, right? You get into recovery, and you're sort of like really powerless over what's going to happen in your journey, in a sense. Because you make a plan for yourself, and then you come to find out that, you know what? The most important part of my life and my recovery is going to be my connection to this higher power. Right? Because without it, I'm going to make something else my higher power. And if I don't get that part right, I'm going to struggle. Right? And I'm going to feel disappointed and let down often. And so, I finally had to face the reality that growing up, getting high was a way for me to escape my inadequacies, my insecurity. Right? I was young. I was not good with girls. I didn't know how to talk to girls. And so, if I tried to talk to a girl and was rejected, I took it like, I'm horrible. I didn't have those skills. Yeah, it's devastating. And I wasn't a bad boy either. It's usually the girls like the bad boys. Right? And even when I got Kingdom Recovery, you know, we're all new. Some of the girls, the girls like the bad boys. And I never was that guy. You know? And so, I thought that there was something wrong with that. You know? And so, finally, I had to be faced with it was just me. And I had to go through that process and that uncomfortability. And someone with a lot more experience, a female friend, told me, you know, hang in there and you'll see that, you know, there's going to come a day where you don't think about her for a day. And then, before you know it, you may not think about her for a week. Then that turns into a month. And then you find that it's been a while since you haven't thought about that person. You know, so I finally started to attempt to build some sort of self-esteem and self-worth. And the difference between... Because, like I said, I still wanted the girl, but the difference this time was that I was plugged in to the program. Right? So, what about the program helps you to identify these things and to work on these things? Well, I think the program really deals a lot with, you know, when you stop using... Like, when you stop using, you're going to probably look for some other way to fill the void. You know what I mean? And that was my way. And the program is really... The way it... The progression of it is that you get introduced to who you are and why you got high, basically. Because the drugs are a symptom. You know? And for me, I lacked identity, self-worth. You know, I always looked for validation outside of myself from somebody else. And I think what... The reason it worked in recovery is because most of us are that way. And when you know that you're not the only one, that's like half the battle. Right? Because you're like, okay, this is not... I'm not crazy. I'm not the only person that's unrepairable. You know? And so you... That gives hope. Right. Maybe there is a better way. So the difference the second time was with the rejection was that I didn't use. That was the difference. And I was still always... In my mind, I still wanted the female. You know what I mean? I wanted the companionship. I still wanted all those things. And I never really knew how to give God time to say, well, let's get you there. You know? Mind you, too, that we're talking about, you know, 35 years ago in the fellowship, there wasn't the experience that it is now. There wasn't the same literature. If you wanted someone with a lot of experience, you would find somebody that has five years. Right? How much life experience. Right? And so, like I said, the difference was that I didn't use. And I dug a little bit deeper into recovery. You know, enough for me to understand that I need to learn to be okay with myself. But I still... Listen, a friend of mine introduced me to dancing. Because I was afraid of going somewhere where there was music and people dancing. Because I felt so inadequate. Yeah. Especially you're not drinking. You're not getting high. Yeah. And then it's like, it's the last place I want to be. But those things make you like a sociable person. You meet people. You have conversation. Right? So a friend of mine was like, you know, you got to stop going to any functions looking for a girl. You know, a companion. He was going to, you know, outside places. Dances. Clubs. And he introduced me to that. And I started doing that. And someone in recovery created like a dance group. And they involved me in it. Oh. And I learned how to dance. And I became pretty good at it. And that gave me some confidence. That made me more appealing to other people. But I didn't know how to handle that either. Because... Right. This newfound success. Right. Now I'm a man. You know, I remember being in a club. And I would watch the girls dance. And I remember occasionally a girl would come up to me and say, can we dance? And I would say no. Oh, man. Like I went to the other extreme. Right. You know what I mean? It's like everything you want but you can't say yes. Yeah. Because you don't do it the way I like to. You know what I mean? You're not, you know. And just I went to the arrogant side. And then I, you know, I continued to do that. And I still was involved in recovery. But somewhat kind of like I was one foot in, one foot out. You know. And at one of those dancing events eventually, you know, there was a female in recovery. She's probably 37 years now. She lives in Florida. She was the one that introduced me to dancing. Like she saw me one time. Because I used to play music a little. I love music. And because of that, I had the rhythm, the beat. She saw me at a dance one time. And she just walked right up to me and says, we're dancing. And I'm like, really? She goes, yeah, just, you got this. It's in you. And we started to dance. So she broke the ice. She broke the ice. And then from that point forward, we would go dancing as a group in recovery. We would go out. And I remember meeting girls here. But it was like, I didn't meet the girl that I wanted. I would meet the girls that I could get. Right? Right. No one wants the one you can get. You want the one you want. Right? Right. Until you get it. And so because they were just like the ones I could get, I didn't treat them like, you know. And then at some point eventually I met my wife. On the dance floor. On the dance floor. Wow. And, you know, the rest is history because it's been almost 30 years later married. Wow. And, you know, what it goes to show too is that, you know, the way I see it now is like, you know, maybe God decided that he needed to pick me off with somebody that was going to be good for me because maybe that would be the only way that I would get in the right direction. You know, and it was finally meeting someone with very high standards, you know. And the crazy thing was, like, she was my flavor. Like, you know, she's like, like, when I met her, I said, there's no way this girl's going to call me that. So, like, if there was a lineup of women, you'd pick her as the lineup. Oh, yeah. Without a doubt. Well, that's God. Without a doubt. And, you know, but you have, you know, it's funny because I remember going out dancing with the group. And we were dancing and my now wife was standing on a pillar and I was dancing with someone else and I accidentally stepped on her shoe a little bit. On your future wife's shoe. Yes. And I apologized. I'm like, hey, I'm sorry. I apologize. Would you like to dance? And we danced one time. And then I totally forgot about the whole thing. So, you had a taste. You didn't even remember. But she married me that night. That whole night she told me, I saw you and I was looking at you and said, he looks like he'd make a good husband. So, that exchange, even though you forgot it in the moment, was so important to her. Yes. And I totally forgotten. Then six months later, I went dancing to Broadway 96 and the place was packed. And I remember. Where was this club at? Broadway 96. In Brooklyn? In New York. In New York. Okay. It was a Latin thing. And I remember, you know, you stop dancing and then you have to work your way back to your seat. And it's really crowded. And I'm working my way back to the seat. And I come head on with this female. Right? And I don't know who she is. And she's smiling at me. And I was like, hi, you want to dance? She said, sure. Right? And we danced. And we started having conversations. Little did I know that she remembered me from six months ago. And she purposely. She might have been stalking you. She purposely navigated to the dance floor to bump into me. Look at that. Right? And we had some conversation. I drank non-alcoholic beverage. And so did she. We danced all night. We exchanged numbers. And she was like, she was beautiful to me. I was like, I don't have a shot. Like, I'm like, oh, because she's talking to me. It's only a matter of time before she goes after that other guy. Because he's a lot cooler than me. You know. There's something about you. You know. And we danced. We exchanged numbers. I waited a few days because that's what we do. Right? Yeah, no one wants a desperate guy. Yeah, right. And so then I called her. And we were on the phone for about two and a half hours. That's it right there, bro. And it's funny because years later she reminded me. And I said, I spent two and a half hours on the phone. Will you really be? And I had sent her a birthday card because it was her birthday at that time. And little did I know that, you know, she liked me. You know. She really liked you. Like, yeah. And I was like, I couldn't, I'm not used to that. You know. So I'm sure that came with its own little uncomfortabilities. Yeah, because, you know what, we, the first date, you know, once you, you hope that they show up for the second date. Because, you know, the first one, so the first date we went to eat at a Spanish restaurant in the Lower East Side. And she was working in that area, which is good. She had a four-year-old daughter at that time. And so we went on the date. The second date we decided we, they were going, her and her friend were going to the World Trade Center. And it was like a last minute. They called me and I'm scrambling to go. And unfortunately for me, I put on the colors that she doesn't like. And I didn't know that. So I showed up. My wife is big on colors. And I showed up wearing something that's a color that's her least favorite. Oh, geez. Yeah. And someone had to convince her to give me a second chance, because I can't take the colors. She was going to write you off because of the colors? Yeah. Can I ask what colors you had on? I had burgundy and red. Oh, all right. So, yeah, in her book, no good. No, no, no. All right. Don't go together. But no one's perfect, so I'll give them another chance. Well, you know, those are things that are repairable, right? That's not deal breakers, right? Sure. But then after that, we continued to date and we continued to dance. And, you know, eventually I started to really feel like, wow, this is real. You know, she really does like me and I'm okay, right? And then at some point we started living together, and then we ended up getting married, and the rest is history. You know, we have three adult children, three granddaughters, you know, and my stepdaughter was born the same month that I got clean, right? So her age is like... Oh, so the daughter that she had that was four years old, you had about four years clean. Right. And so when she celebrates her birthday, I celebrate. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that's a little bit of the universe. Yeah, and listen, you know, my wife, I remember when my mother had a stroke, and my wife would say, early in marriage, because sometimes, you know, when you get married, like for me, I still had not let go of my single. You know, you get married one day and it's like you still got to let something go, and sometimes it can happen automatically. But I remember, because I was married and I still felt like it was perfectly normal on Friday night to say, let me go hang out with the guys, because that's what we do. We go to the meeting, we go to the diner, that's what we... But you're married now. And I'm like, but I've always done that. You know, so it didn't mean that I couldn't do that, but I didn't understand that now you're married, so it's different. It's not that you can't do that, but you have to consider other things, you know. And I remember my mother had a stroke and my wife used to say, hey, can we go over to your mother's house so I could comb her hair? You know, we went to my mother's house and my wife bathed my mother, something that no other family members would do, you know. And so from her, you know, I really, really learned how to be a man. Or learned what it was going to take to be a man. And I had other men help me to learn to be a man, but in order to keep the marriage, right, and for it to grow, I had to grow. And I had to learn that from other people that had done it. So I've been influenced by so many great people in and out of, and that's the beauty for me. I have a society in recovery and I have a society in my faith and I have society that I live in, right. And each one of those societies brings something, you know. But there are just as many people that I know that are not in recovery that have influenced me, you know, in a way that if it wasn't for them, you know, I wouldn't be who I am. Sure. You know, so I'm definitely blessed. I want to touch on something just because it's, you know, it's interesting to me. I'd like to know. So these issues that you said you had, you know, with the past relationships, you know, they would always kind of rear their head eventually. A couple years with the second girlfriend you were engaged, had these issues in your relationship. When you met your wife, did those issues come back up once things kind of, like the honeymoon phase is over? Did you experience some of these issues? And if you did, how did you handle them? Did you handle them differently? Did you feel as though you were better prepared now because of your past experiences? Like how did that go for anyone who might be going through something like that as well? Yeah. You know, I think one of the things that really allowed me to sort of relax a bit was really I didn't feel threatened by what she may do if she decides. Like I never felt that she would do what the others did. Like I never felt that way because she wasn't that person. You know what I mean? And so I saw how devoted she was to family. And before my wife, when we met, she had actually been, she had actually at that stage in her life been introduced to faith and to pursuing faith through a friend. And she explored it, and then she met me, and she's like, I want to do this other thing, but I just met this guy. You know what I mean? And she goes, I want to see what that's like. And it was me, you know. But I never felt threatened. You know, for something about her, I felt like I didn't have to be afraid that it was going to happen again. And, you know, I really can't, I think by that time, too, I had started to, like I said, before I met her, I made more of an investment into who am I, right? And I did have some level of self-esteem at that point because I had gone through the trouble before, through the separation, and I finally started to feel like, listen, you're okay. You're okay who you are. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then before I met my wife, I was meeting other women, so I could see, okay, I can meet, but they weren't people I really, it was just to be able to say to myself, yeah, I met a girl. You know, it wasn't like, it was just to be able to say it, have a notch on the belt, you know? Listening to you share and then also reflecting on what you're sharing, you know, because of my own experiences, you know, even with my wife now, she wasn't someone I was looking for. She wasn't someone I was looking to fill a void with. She was someone who showed up in my life. I like to think the same for you, right, because you weren't really desperately searching. You were kind of more just trying to learn what you like to do, right? Go out dancing, you know, new crowd, and now look what's presented to you because, you know, you're not looking anymore. It's almost like maybe when it manifests in that way, it's more what's right for us as opposed to what we think is going to fix us, but we ignore all the other shit. So it just has me reflecting a little bit, and I could relate. Yeah, when you say that she wasn't the one, she isn't the type that you felt would be like the other ones. Yeah, yeah. Same. And listen, my wife was, I mean, in her 30s, knockout attractive, like, because if she walked out, like, you know what I mean? And you know what I think sometimes, too, is that eventually you keep, you know, sometimes you keep trying to look for something that you want, and you can't accept that you're not there. And then you get it, and it's like, okay, now you've got to figure out how to hold on to this because you're not there. If you don't grow, you're not going to hold on to it because you're not prepared. And so for me, it was more that because it wasn't like I got totally prepared, you know, I passed the test, I took the exams, I did all the studying. No, I got into it and said, wow, what did I get myself into? But it really just pushed me more. And then we both started to really, honestly, we both started to, once my son was born, she was still interested in the faith thing, and I used to take her to the faith situation and to church and to events, and I really wasn't interested because I felt like, you know, like religion is for people that are in a crisis and then looking for it. And I'm like, I'm not in a crisis. I don't really feel, I'm not looking for that. But little did I know that part of what she was going there was because she was dealing with my self-centeredness. It was, you know, I wasn't a piece of cake because I'm self-centered. And I didn't stop being self-centered because, you know, because I'm in recovery. And so I would take her there and she would get her medicine, and then I noticed there was an attraction of how she was changing because all of a sudden we weren't fighting about the same things again. You know, like we never had physical fights or nothing, but just the clashes, they weren't happening. Things were changing. Yeah, her character, she was more submissive. I could see that she did more to try to be a wife to me and treat me like a husband and I was like, that's really attractive, you know. And so it caused me to say, hey, I want to learn more about this too because you're loving me and I don't even deserve it, you know. And so that became something that, you know, we pursued together. And really that's what made our marriage. Because the reality is, you know, trust is one of the most important things in marriage, right? So I asked myself, if I'm going to trust, in order for me to trust a person, I kind of have to really think of who do they hold themselves accountable to, right? Because who do they answer to, right? Because we all have opportunities in life when no one's looking to say no one's going to know. So meaning to gauge their intentions behind what they do. Right, and the integrity, right? So if you're a person that you only kind of answer to yourself and you don't feel like there's a bigger purpose and cause, then if you do something and it feels okay to you, then it's okay, right? But to me, if I connect with, it's me and God, really, you know. And so because of that, if my relationship with God is not healthy, then there's no hope for my marriage. Because now there's that accountability of when I'm alone, right? So it's a curse if you want to go in the wrong direction. But if you want to go in the right direction, it's a blessing, you know. And so long as I'm going in the right direction, it's a blessing. So now it's like, you know what, when I leave my house or when she leaves our home, we have no control over what someone chooses to do, right? Because my security is in God. And anything that you decide to do when you walk out these doors, it's between you and God. And if you can accept that, listen, even in recovery, I believe is in the second step. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know it says it in our literature that when we were using, we were separated from our higher power. So there's a separation that happens when we're not living right. You know what I mean? So you're saying that someone's faith in their higher power helps your trust in that person. Yes, yes. And I'm not... Yeah, because if I... Like I said, who do you put your trust in, you know? And... What's your bottom line? Not to... Even if you look at religion and Christianity, I mean, not that I'm a commandment person, but if you look at... The first one is to love the Lord your God with all your heart. Love God first. You can look at it as a rule. But if you can't love God first, you can't love other people the way you need to. Because it's about you. You know what I mean? So it's very difficult to forgive if you don't love God first. So it's not that it's... Okay, here's another rule to follow. Is you start to see that, listen, I need this. You know? So most of us would say, if you ask me most of my life, Hey, where on your list of most important things, where's God? Oh, God's the first one on the top. But if you looked at my choices... It's not so much on the top. It wasn't on the top. It was me. Yeah. You know? So that is really what has enabled us. You know, it's been a blessing that we share the same faith, because what happened is it allowed us to embrace other people, marry couples into our life that have demonstrated to us how you have success. You know, and they've loved us. And regardless of what happens, it's really... You know, I believe recovery is a way to reconnect us to ourselves, to God, and to society. That's what's happening. Those are the ties that are broken when you're using. And when you get those things reconnected, you're able to function in society, and hopefully your life, your priorities are in order. You know? So I think that, to me, that's the big thing. It's God first, not because it's a rule somebody taught me. It's because it means protection for me. It means that I'm protected from myself in many ways. Well, I guess for so many years, and through all your experience and the evidence you've had... Yeah. You know what a bastard you could be to yourself. Yeah. And what a detriment to your own life you can be. Right. And listen, I'm not the type of person to give myself a lot of credit, because it's a lot easier for me to spot my shortcomings. Okay. Right? And recently, my daughter was over on some business, and her cousin was with her, and they're adults, and it was raining, and they were moving some things out of storage, and it was cold, and they showed up at my house at 11 p.m., and they had just finished, and we started talking in the kitchen, and we started to warm up food to feed them. And the gentleman that was with her is a man of faith. Right? Her cousin. So before they sat down and ate, he said a prayer, right? And they ate. We conversated. And I was still in my work clothes by almost midnight. And so I got up, and I went over to the sink, and I started washing the dishes. And he started staring at me. He goes, I can't believe what I'm seeing. And I'm like, what? He goes, that you're doing what you're doing at this time. You still got your work clothes on. You know what I mean? It'd be justified for you to say, I'm done, I'm taking a shower, I'm going to bed. But now you're here, and I'm like, well, my wife and I are partners. I'm doing it, so she doesn't have to do it. I'm not upset about it, right? But it was a response that came from me. I didn't think about it. But those are the subtle things that change that you don't even really. And in some ways, we start to live in ways that other people kind of notice. And to us, they're like, what? Because to other people, they're not normal. Right. Well, that's how you... It's also how you show love. Yeah. It's how you show your love. That's right. That's right. Taking the burden off of someone else, even if it is minute. Yeah. Something that won't matter. Right. Right. To him, it was something that made him think, because it probably wasn't something that he... He's a provider. He's got children. He's got... Right. It probably wasn't something that he's used to doing or seeing. Maybe he would go home, and maybe it would come to his mind and do something similar. Because sometimes it's what you do above and beyond the norm that really matters. Because us, you know, especially us, when we provide, we think, hey, it's easy to give what you can give. Give sacrificially. Right. It doesn't have to be a price or money. It's giving away that's uncomfortable that you're sacrificing. That's what really makes a difference. Giving away something that's not really yours. Right. Right. I'm grateful because when I'm really connected to recovery, connected to God, my spirit is right, and I'm willing to be of service. Because I get a lot. Right. I get a lot in return, and I want to show my gratitude by giving back at home. Because it's a lot, it's more difficult to do it at home than it is to do it in front of other people in a fellowship. Sure. You know, because I know, I think a lot of us, we take for granted the people closest to us. We feel like we don't have to prove anything anymore, and then the people we don't know, we want to make an impression, right? So we would people please. Yeah, it's misguided. It's misguided, but then, oh, but my wife told me, I told her one day, I said, you know, I think I got issues with people pleasing. She was like, what do you mean? What about me then? Try it over here first. Yeah. How come I'm never a recipient of your people pleasing, right? Because I already got you. Right. You're already subscribed to this. Right. I need new subscribers. Right. Oh, man. So those things, they never really leave. No, no, because self-centeredness, it's always just waiting right there at the door, you know? It's easy. Yeah, and it's always, I listen, self-deception, you know? Because without, if I'm not moving forward, I'm going to gravitate right back to who I can be. Right. You know, and that's not someone that someone would want to be married to. So your faith is a big part of not going back to that. Yes. Your program is a big part of that. Yes. How does your weekly to-do list look like when it comes to that? Like, what do you do on a weekly basis? Typically, you know, on Monday nights, on Monday night I'm home. When I have a chore, it's laundry. Tuesday night may be a night of grocery shopping. Wednesday night, I'll go to a meeting regularly. Thursday night is another night that I'm at home or doing some sort of chore. Friday, my wife and I go to a Bible discussion group. We do that every other Friday. And we're, like, really close to the people that are there. And, you know, it's really more about the relationships. Because, you know, God, he made people to be people for people. And it's really the relationships in anything. And we get to spend time with people that care about us and we care about them and we have a connection. And we're always there for each other. And we have a lot of laughs. And we're all just trying. Nobody's got it figured out. No one's like, oh, well, unless you do it this way. No, we have discussions and we ask questions, you know. And we try to accept each other where we are. So we do that every other Friday. And then Saturday is my home group. Our home group. Right, our home group on Saturday morning. That's been a staple for me for the past probably six or seven years. Sunday is church in the morning. My wife and I attend service, whether it's online or it's live. And then we may do some shopping and catch up on some things. And I have to make sure that I make an effort to get her out of the house and let's go do something together. Sunday we drove down to Neptune, basically to a vegan fest. And it was a little set up where they were selling vegan food products. And my wife's going vegan. So we went down there and had a good time. Yeah, and you know what? After that, we had a little something to eat there. We found a book with her name on it that says Betty Goes Vegan. And it was five bucks. We didn't care what was in the book. We bought it just for the cover. She looked at me like, we're buying this. Just put it on display. That's it. Betty Goes Vegan. That's cute. And then we walked out and we drove down to Avon to the beach in the cold. And we walked on the Broadwalk. We took some pictures. And then we drove back up and we were considering what to eat. And we went to, there's a place in Avon now called Jersey Boy's Pizza or Pizza Boy Jersey. It's a really cool pizza spot. I had mentioned it to her. And she said, oh, I've never been there. So we went there and she loved it. Listen, her bank was filled. Right. We went out and enjoyed something together. And that matters to her. Yeah, I get it. You know what I mean? And so, and the blessings that I received because of those things are, you know what I mean? It seems like you've got pretty good balance, you know, between your spiritual life, your, I don't want to say religious, but your faith, your program, your home life. Yeah. Was that always easy to maintain? Is it something you had to work on? No, it's always been, it's always, it's been a gradual, you know, because sometimes, you know, the big thing for us, man, is like for long-term relationships, man, it's about commitment. Right. Because none of us are a finished product, you know what I mean? And we have to deal with things about each other, you know, that we would rather not. But we're all still trying to make it and trying to grow, right? Yeah. And listen, I can go right back to being that same self-centered person. It won't take that long. Even with 35 years. And because I'm so comfortable in that mode and so familiar, I'm totally okay with it. It's only until, you know, I remember like 30 years married, it seemed like at least once a year we'd have one of those talks where we sit in the kitchen and I'll see the tears in my wife's eyes. Right? And I think like the six step in recovery talks about that. You see the hurt in someone's eyes as they, because of harm that you caused. And I'm like, I'm not talking about you fought, it was physical, you threw anything, you didn't, it's just the self-centeredness. Right. And to the point where she's in tears, hurting, and she goes, you know, I can't take it. And I'm like, I didn't even know I was doing it. Right, this is news to me. Right. But that's just a testament of our self-centeredness. Yes. Because we can't even see it. You can't spot self-deception. There you go. And I remember telling her, you know, I apologize, and I wish I could say that it'll never happen again, but I can't even say that because I go in this mode without even deciding to do it. You know, and so I think that's the reason why we've benefited from the purpose bigger than us. Because sometimes you need that to hold on to until you get to the other side. Because you have no idea when somebody's going to change. Like, I'm not saying you should be with somebody who's abusive, right? Right. But there are things that are just character issues that take time. And sometimes you have to go, you know what? I can't run away from this because it's bigger than me. Well, most importantly, I feel like something that I've learned being back in these rooms and working this program is I'm never going to have it right all the time. Right. And although I get high off of getting it right a few times in a row, I'm going to fuck up. Right. When I do fuck up, am I going to be honest? Am I going to be accountable? Yeah. Am I going to be willing to take a look at it? Yeah. Whether or not I change is another story now. Yeah. But first and foremost, I have to take an honest look at it. Yeah. I have to acknowledge what I did, any hurt I caused. Right. And now what can I do? And like you tell your wife, I can't promise I'm never going to do it again. Right. I can only hope that my awareness of it could get better. Yeah. And that I could just be better. Yeah. And you know what? The truth is we can change. We can grow. We don't have the power to do it. But if we utilize the power that's available, we can do it. Right? Like the seven step doesn't say that we remove our own shortcomings. It says we humbly ask God to remove them. So that's where the power comes from. It doesn't even say God removes them. Right. It says we ask him to. We humbly ask. Right? Because there are things that are in our characters today that we do that we never thought we'd be able to do. Right? If you asked us when we started, right, you'd be like, no, I don't think I'll ever be a... Guess what? There are things that are part of our character now that we really didn't have anything to do with changing it. Right? And we never thought we'd be there. You know? And so, you know, being married is a treasure. It's a gift from God. There are many people that I know that don't have a partner like that. You know? And, you know, my wife is devoted to family and she cares about people. And that means a lot to you. I mean, she, just like I'll come home and she'll say, oh, guess I need to go to the supermarket if it's okay. I need to buy some stuff because I want to cook some food for my co-worker's daughter. Who is your co-worker's daughter? Well, they just had a baby and he lost his job, their father, and they're living somewhere and it's not really great. And they're like broke. And they had a baby. And my wife says, I want to cook them a meal and take it to them. Like, that's how she thinks. Like, in my mind, I'll be like, well, I'm too busy. Somebody will figure it out. She's got somebody. Yeah, yeah. You know? She takes it upon herself to be that person. Because she doesn't, it's not like, you know, it's not like she just walked out of church and it's like, okay, now I have this spirit. She thinks like that. And then she just thinks others. And that's attractive. Yeah, she's very loyal. Yeah. You know, and I'm married to somebody. I'm the recipient of that. Right. You know, so she takes care of me. Like, if something happens, hey, I found this. If I tell my wife, she's on it. You know, because she's devoted. Now, I'm trying to catch up, you know. I've got a ways to go. You'll always be trying to catch up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I'm blessed. Sure. So if you were to sum up, like, this conversation and, like, how you feel, like, where you're at now. Like, where you're at now compared to where you were. Yeah. Like, what's the moral of this story here? Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, when you're in a bad place, it's difficult to kind of see beyond that time and see the big picture. Because everything is on you, right? And it's hard to kind of think down the road. But sometimes those places are just one little small snippet of time in our life, right? Yeah. Because we live a long time. It's just one little snippet. And life can be completely different. You know what I mean? Right. And for me, like, 35 years later, it's like, wow, it's worth it. It's worth it. Don't ever, don't ever give up. Because it's all, the intention is for you to finally be the person you've always been intended to be. And be free. Not on your time. Right. And so accepting wherever you are at any time is the key. Because the success is not the destination. It's really in saying, I'm good with where I'm at right now. And to me, that's really recovery. Right. You know? Because we can finally be free when we accept. If I can't accept where I'm at, how can I move forward? You know? Makes sense. So it's worth it. And it's important to really just trust. Just trust that what's in store for you is good. You know? And, you know, it means oftentimes you have to make uncomfortable choices. But that's where the success is. Right. In choosing oftentimes what's uncomfortable, not what's easy. But the rewards, you know, they're worth it. Sure. Sure. Well, you know, before we go, you know, again, I thank you so much for being here. Thank you. For sharing this. I hope it's been a good experience for you. I thought it was going to be, I think I could give him ten minutes and then I'm going to be done. You know, you said that to me a couple of times and I told you don't worry about it. An hour and a half is too long. Yeah, we're way past an hour and a half right now. Well, you did a great job. Oh, stop it. No, you really. I have to say something. Okay. Similar to what you said about your wife and the attraction that you had to her, I'm not saying sexually or physically, I mean in her faith and the way she walked. George, you wanted to know what that's about. Thank you for the same thing for me. You know, coming around, being around, seeing you, listening to you. You know, it ain't always about what you guys say. It's about how you guys are living. And to see the way you live and to be your friend, it means everything to me. So I want to thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. It means the world to me. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I mean, all the people demonstrate that it's safe to do what we know we need to do because we see someone else doing it. It's like, okay, he's doing okay. Maybe I'll try, you know. Because for a junkie like me, man, you can't tell me what to do. Yeah. You got to show me what to do. Yeah. So, yeah. So thank you for that. Thank you. And I guess with that, we're going to wrap it up. Thank you for coming out, brother. Great for being here. Thank you for having me. Love you, bro. Love you, too. Thanks. All right.