Dragons Lair: Spritz & Scrums

The Dragon's Lair podcast welcomes guests Eddie and Ellie from the Spirits and Scrums podcast, the world's first English-speaking Italian rugby podcast. They discuss how their podcast started and their love for the Benetton rugby club. They talk about the club's growth in professionalism without losing its soul, and the positive changes they've noticed. They also mention the friendly and community-based atmosphere of the club and their excitement for the upcoming stadium expansion. They compare their experiences at Benetton games to those at Rodney Parade in Newport, Wales, and express their desire to visit Wales in the future. Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home for all things Dragons RFC and Rugby in the region. I'm Jamie and joining me as always is Gavin Thomas. How are you doing, Gav? I'm very well, Jamie. Very well, as always. Good stuff. How's your week been? It's been all right. Now, clearly in Wales, you know, it's not any breaking weather yet for you, but it's meant to be spring here in Sussex and it snowed on Monday morning and I am outraged. Absolutely outraged. We've got a bit of sun here and it's been quite nice. All we've had is rain and we're actually getting a bit of sun now. We do feel like we're finally in spring. I was promised sun when I moved to the coast and it's not delivering. I'm not very happy. Oh, dear. OK, well, you can find us on platforms such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and the Sports Social Network. And if you like what we do, please subscribe, share with your Dragons mates and leave us a good review as it all helps to grow the pod. Right then, so the URC is back and this week's podcast has an Italian flavour. We are joined by Eddie and Ellie from the Sprits and Scrums podcast, the world's first English speaking Italian rugby podcast. Buona sera and welcome to the pod. How are you guys? Grazie mille. Molto, molto bene. Thank you for having us. It's a joy. No problem. Did I butcher that, by the way? No, it was perfect. Oh, that's OK. I wanted to reply in Welsh and then I was like, oh, I'm probably going to get it wrong. Is it croeso? Croeso? Croeso, yeah. OK, so, yeah, thanks for joining us, guys. So I thought we'd kick things off with just you guys. Just tell us a bit about yourselves and how the Sprits and Scrums podcast got started. Well, the Sprits and Scrums podcast got started because we like talking about Italian rugby and we talk about it a lot. And then we thought, you know what, we'll make this a podcast. And on top of that, that's the positive side, which is like, you know, we just found ourselves talking about it all the time and thought we'd record it. And the negative side is we thought there was so much ignorance and sometimes maliciousness about Italian rugby in the press at the time that we thought would actually try and be a voice supporting it as opposed to, you know. I think especially because there wasn't anybody talking about it in English. I think now there's a couple of us, but just only a year ago, actually, we've been going. But, yeah, we realized that nobody was talking about it in English and there must be other Italian rugby supporters who maybe don't speak fluent Italian and can't, you know, listen to the Italian podcast. So why not start our own? And we think we're funny. And that's important. Yeah, the other third of us is probably the funniest and he's not here with us. He doesn't know he's funny. Yeah, he's funny. He's funny for us. He's a bit like Ricky Gervais' Idiot Abroad. Oh, right. He's going to be so angry. He's a very great man. We miss you, coach. We'll try and make sure that we dig you up on this podcast. So the two of you are Benetton fans. So why Benetton then? What is it about Benetton? It was actually quite lucky. So once many years ago, Ellie and I were arguing about whether there are any good Italian rugby clubs or not. Obviously, during the Six Nations, this is almost a decade ago. And now they've got some good ones. They've got some good ones. And then for her birthday, I thought I'd surprise her and take her to see a game. And it just so happened that that week, Benetton were playing at home and Zebra were playing away. So I was like, OK, well, it's going to be a Benetton game. So flew into Taviso. She thought we were going to Venice. And then next thing you know, bang, Benetton versus Edinburgh at home. It doesn't. It really doesn't. But actually there, that's where our love story with Benetton started. And it could have been Zebra. We did go to Venice afterwards. Yeah, we did. We did. She did say, don't worry, we're going to Venice tomorrow. We just fell in love with the place immediately. One, it's one of the most beautiful cities I've ever been to. It's a city, but it's really the size of a town. And if anyone that thinks this hasn't been, do go. It's absolutely stunning. And I'm sure some Dragons fans are probably making the trip this weekend. Yeah. Or two of them. Yeah, they'll be there. Well, they'll have a beautiful time. Two Euro Proseccos. You can't argue with that. But we just fell in love. Which I told them. Honestly, that was it for us. You know, we were like, gosh, this is dreamy. I haven't been to a stadium. Especially, you know, we live in London. So getting to go to a stadium where you can pay kind of two Euros for a glass of Prosecco and have a great time. And the atmosphere of Paris game is amazing. They've got a little cassette where the players come out afterwards and chat with everyone. It's very familial. Yeah. And it's got a bit more professional and inverted commas in that sense. But when we first went to this one, you know, after the game, I was like, oh, this is the pub we're going to. Went to that pub. And then you had, you know, Ugo Gorey, Eduardo Gorey, you know, 50 caps for Italy. He's offering to buy us pint. And then Ellie went to the bar. This is amazing. And I went to Bram Steyn again, who was, you know, an Italian international flanker. I said, when Ellie comes back, could we possibly get a photo before we leave? And when Ellie was away, he then whipped around the entire pub, got all the Benetton players together. So that when Ellie came out, we had like a massive group photo. And I was like, that is just special. You don't get that in many places. So then it was just love at first sight. Yeah. Through the ups and downs. Only ups though. Well, there were some downs along the way, but ups mostly at the minute-ish. Yes. Has the club changed? So you're talking about 10 years ago. Now, clearly, in performance-wise, you know, the graph is upward. Yeah. Has that come at the cost of some of the soul of the club? I don't think so yet, that we've tangibly noticed. They have stepped up their game in terms of just the professionalism behind the social media that goes out, the graphics, all of that has really stepped up in the last, I'm going to say, year and a half, two years. The work that Federico, the social media manager, is doing at the minute is, I think, top level. Like it's on par with any top club. But I don't think it's lost its soul. They are going to expand the stadium this summer. Yeah. So I don't know whether... I don't think it's lost its soul. It has changed. It's got slightly more, again, in inverted commas, professional. You know, when we first went, we then went again for my birthday, and they gave me a bottle of champagne for my birthday. I don't think you'd get that anymore. That's just because the club's growing. Yeah. But the atmosphere and the soul of it is still very much the same. And after the game, it's not like when you go to some of the premiership teams, and like the players are cordoned off, and at their end, and no one can get anywhere near them. No, they very much mingle, and they're all part of it. It still feels like a community club, even though they play some top-tier rugby, and that's lovely. But financially, they've definitely invested a lot in the last few years. They've just built a whole new hospitality area. And they're building a new stand this summer. So that should up capacity to about 7,500, 8,000 people, because it's currently 5,000. And they're selling that out week in, week out, which, again, 18 months ago was not the case. Clearly, they've tapped into the potential. Yeah, so it's exciting. There is always a fear when things get too famous or too good. It's a bit like when you like a rock band or something, and then, oh, I liked them before they were famous. There's an element of that, a concern of that. But I don't think so. I think it's still, to this day, and hopefully it continues, an incredibly friendly and community-based club. I'm thinking to myself, though, maybe I should be a Benetton fan, because players buy in pints, champagne for booty, and Angus said, oh, we won't get this at the Dragons. We will not get this down at Rodney Parade. Well, you say that, but I've had it on good authority that Rodney Parade is the best fan experience in the URC. So I don't know what they're measuring that on, probably not bottles of champagne, but maybe on, you know, somebody said that it encapsulates everything. So that's kind of your access to the stadium, the car park. Yeah. Apparently you have a very good car park. All sorts. There was a consulting company, they did all sorts on what's the best fan experience, and apparently Rodney Parade came out on top. Yeah, we completely agree, don't we, Gav? We're not biased on this point, but it's definitely the best, isn't it? It always looks cold on TV, I've got to say. It's probably the only thing turning me off, but we will visit eventually. The next Benetton game in Newport will be there. There won't be champagne there, right? I can tell you that right now. You won't be playing Spying Pikes, I'm sorry. But an excellent curry chip, so... Right. Yes. Well, you know, I've never been to Wales, let alone Newport. What? I know, I know. And my surname is Evans. That's a twist. A twist, that is. And my cousin thinks he's Welsh. And your other cousin has played... They've both played sport for Wales. And they're just as Welsh as I am. And my grandpa identified as a Welshman. And Eddie's never stopped playing. And I've never crossed the river. You need to remedy that quickly. Yeah. Ignore the suggestions of going to Snowdonia or Cardiff. Go straight to Newport. Great. And stop at nothing else. All we need to be is Newport. Newport is the heart of Wales, you know. Once you've visited Hypervalu, you never need to go back. Newport or Glasgow. There's no Hypervalu anymore, Gav. It's Poundstretchers. Hypervalu went years ago. And we've got Wetherspoons as well. You'll be going all in, Newport. Or what could you want? We might get €2 for seconds in a Wetherspoon. Oh, you definitely will, probably, yeah. You need to sort that out though, Ed. You need to come to Newport. I think when the fixture list comes out for next season, you guys need to come to Newport. That's it. We'll commit to that. Let's commit to that on this podcast. Coach, you're coming too. Fine. We'll definitely go. Next season, Bennetton away. Or maybe – I don't want to get you guys started. I was about to say Zebray away. I don't really want to talk about it, to be perfectly honest. You guys probably want to talk about it quite a lot. Oh, no. We talked about it. Either Bennetton or Zebray away in Newport. That'll be bad. Yeah. I'd be more comfortable with Zebray if he was away. Yeah. Although Bennetton's away win record is – I mean, it's a bit better this season, but last season it was abysmal, so. I'll come on to that later. We'll wait until you hear the track and Zebray record. It's even worse. Sorry, what was I going to say? Well, I was going to ask a question about Bennetton, really. So, clearly, it's improved. The results have improved, probably since COVID, with the rainbow cap and that period. The obvious answer is clearly the players have improved. But why do you think that it's changed? Because they've gone from being a club that you wouldn't imagine getting into the playoffs to now one of the serious contenders. So, how's that happened? Well, the answer for me is that, actually, I think, yeah, they had a winless season and then they immediately won the rainbow cup at the end of it. That winless season was actually a very odd one because, actually, they played some good rugby in it and, as a fan, you weren't watching it going, oh, these guys are hopeless. You were watching it going, this is... how are we losing all these games? And, actually, they got to the Pro 14 playoffs the year before that and almost beat Munster away in the playoffs. So, they weren't a terrible side. They were a very inconsistent side, as they can still be. But now they're... But, you know, even now, they just lost to Scarlets away. It's unacceptable, that is. Well, it's unacceptable. It's like, what a terrible weekend for Italian rugby that was. I'm going to be banging the drum for Italian rugby, but they lost. Zebra lost to you guys. Well done. But then your great weekend was also slightly ruined, I'm sure, by watching Scarlets win as well because you would be sitting on top of Scarlets if it wasn't for that. So, Benetton really shot Zebra in the foot there as well. And Dragons. And Dragons. Bloody Benetton. Yeah, exactly. We were so angry. Yeah, but in answer to why have they got better or how have they got better, I mean, it's obviously been a journey. They've made some really good investments. Obviously, they've bought very well. They now are in a position, even though on our most recent podcast we've been talking about the fact that, essentially, Benetton have insane depth now. And when the internationals were away for the Six Nations, we were like, well, you know what? We're okay. I mean, actually, if you look at who's left behind, there's a bunch of non-Italian internationals playing in Benetton now. They didn't perform as well as they should have. So, yeah, losing to Scarlets was not in the plan. But you can't ignore the fact that, you know, you've got Sakatawa, you've got Jacob Emaga, you've got some brilliant, brilliant Argentinians, Thomas Albanon, Gallagher. So they have real depth. But on top of that, they've got this depth. But also the young players, young Italian players that people were talking about for ages and ages and ages finally came of age. So all these young guys, you know, they got the experience in Menoncello now, 21, just got player of the tournament in the Six Nations. But he's one of many, many decent young Italians. So if you combine that, you also add the fact that they put their hands in their pockets quite big to buy the likes of Sakatawa, that they were very, very quick off the mark, capitalizing in the disaster that was English rugby. You know, so they got a whole bunch of Wasps players in. You know, they've done some very good business and developed young talent. And then the rest of them as well, they're experienced Italian internationals. Again, they're coming of age. They're just still coming into their peak. So it's a combination of things. On top of that, Bortolami is a pretty decent coach. A new fitness coach came in from Jersey and he did a fantastic job with them. So it's almost like a perfect storm of stuff. And I think wins feeds wins in the sense that I also think watching a team do well feeds into the players wanting to play and stay on. So actually in the last six months, a lot of kind of contract extensions that have been signed and players who are committed to staying has been something that realistically we thought Jacob Emanuel would stay a year. We thought Paulo Hidalgo would stay a year and they've all extended. They're all staying. And that's, I think, because there is a collective feeling of let's build this into something great and they're sensing that there is momentum and that kind of feeds into it as well. And it's still going now, like Lewis Liner. Yeah. Leaving Harlequins. Great signing. Yeah. But they've been so smart, haven't they? Yeah. Really smart. So, yes, that's why. However, there's still a massive room for improvement. I mean, I think they're excellent and I'll support them. But there's still, if you compare the Benetton squad to, you know, Toulouse, Leinster, La Rochelle, you know, there's still... It's not a level playing field, does it? You're operating within the salary cap. We're operating within, we're literally scraping down the back of the stores just to pay for stuff. And then Leinster this week have moved one of their players into a central contract which has opened a huge chunk of finance, which allows them to sign Geordie Barrett. Right. It's not a level playing field. Yeah. Even vaguely. Exactly. And Benetton, yeah, so they've got this money and all this, but then also they've got a squad of about 45 to 50 players because they have to, because when the Six Nations or an international window opens up, they lose 20 to 25 players. They're absolutely gutted of players. So it's not like a gross excess that they're buying these players. It's like you either have a massive squad or you'll be playing your under-19s during the Six Nations. And that's the nature of professional rugby now, I think, as well. It's... Dragons has a sizable squad. We've had 20, 21 injuries at times this season. And like you say, it's our under-19s we're having to draw from the semi-professional feeder clubs. It's... Yeah. You need those size squads, otherwise you don't cope, really, with the absence of an international period. And we don't lose as many international players as you do, but then we don't have a host of other top-class players. We don't have the depth, that's the problem. No, no. We just don't have the depth. When we lose injuries, we have guys who come in who probably aren't at URC level or be chucking kits, but that's just where we are. I was going to ask you, too, as I don't know if you know this, but do you have any idea roughly what the budget is for Benton? What's their playing budget? So, I think, and this could be wrong, but I'm not pretty sure. It's roughly, all these words I'm putting in sort of like edge my back. Roughly, yeah. Okay, so this could be complete... Don't want to swear on the podcast. It could be... No, it can if you want. It could be complete bollocks. My understanding is it's each of the two franchises. So, Italy has a similar model to Wales in a sense that these are franchises, but Benetton also has a huge amount of money from the Benetton family as well and other sponsorships. So, they operate on about €6 million each and then Benetton will double that and possibly now more than double it through private funding and sponsorships. Severi and Parma are not in the same position financially that Benetton are. It's sort of pretty chalk and cheese there. They basically just rely entirely on the money they get from the Italian Rugby Football Union. So, they're similar kind of funding to us and... Yeah, I think so, because you guys are in Welsh rugby, isn't it? So, you're all franchises, but some of you are part ownership. The Dragons is an entire franchise. It's privately owned. We are four privately owned teams. So, we were owned by the WIO. Yeah, we were owned. They aren't franchised. There's certain Cardiff fans who would be curling up with fury at you and they're described as a franchise. I don't mind particularly making that up. We're not out of Cardiff. No, we're going to Newport. Newport is the cultural hub of Wales, and that's where we're going. Our funding is limited, but that's how professional sports works. Some teams are wealthier than others. Those teams tend to do better. That's not a rugby thing at all. We're on a salary cap. So, at the moment, it's 5.2, and next season, all the Welsh teams are going down to 4.5. Yes. Very low, as you can imagine. That's going to make recruitment and retaining our players very, very difficult. That's why in Welsh rugby, we've seen a lot of young kids come through. You've seen it for Wales. I'm sure the Six Nations, if they can win it, Alex Mann and all these kids coming through. So, yes, it's tough times. We're having to cut our cloth in Welsh rugby. Is it true that the Scarlets don't have a full-time defence coach? We don't. I don't know about the Scarlets either. I'll do it for cheap. Yes, I've offered on this holiday, but I've not been taken up. I've never made a tackle in my life, but I think I could talk a good game. My success with Hastings under-10s is not being picked up effectively by Dragons, and they're not offering me the defence coach role. Wow, that's crazy, isn't it? Well, we have three full-time coaches, two of which are leaving at the end of the season because of contracts, and the rest of the coaching roles are taken up by guys who are part-time and also have roles coaching Newport Semi-Professional Club, Newport RFC. Wow. We are literally a bit of a shoestring operation. It's not always been like that. To be fair, though, as I say, if you'd watched any Dragons games, you would know that we don't have a defence coach. You would know just by watching any of our games. We will get a defence coach next season. We have an overhaul of the coaching team, but we don't have a full-time defence coach. Wow. I've been considering all that, actually. You know what? It could be a lot worse. What do you mean, a lot worse? They're a part of the library. No, yeah, but that's what... Right? Imagine trying to push that onto Benetton. Like, yeah, no, you don't have a full-time defence coach. Put that on anyone. Put that on Leinster. Put that on anyone. But it's finance, isn't it? Yeah. Leinster have this bottomless pot of money. Yeah. But at the expense of the other Irish regions, though, I think they basically... Oh, absolutely, yes. You know, kind of... They do soak it up, particularly from Ulster and Conor to get away with it. Yeah. Munster fans are not keen on the whole set-up, but it works for Leinster. It works for Ireland as a national team, not for Irish rugby as a whole. Certainly works for Leinster, though, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. I don't dislike Leinster. I know a lot of people hate Leinster. They're the bad guys, but I'm insanely jealous of them. You know the budget, the players they've got. They keep winning all the time. It's quite sweet. It's like, oh, yeah, of course. Of course they need some help from Geordie Barrett, right? Like, yeah, that's what Leinster need. They need a bit of help. To be fair to Leinster, you know, clearly they have piles of cash. They can buy whoever they want, but the system is right. Yeah. In the region, Leinster coaching principles are being done in all the clubs. The kids are getting ready. So the 17, 18-year-olds are rolling into the Leinster Academy, already know the Leinster way, which is why they have this conveyor belt of back row forwards and centres who just seem to appear out of nowhere. And they're coming up to seven or eight schools in the South Dublin area. So these are kids who've grown up playing alongside each other, and then they're going into the professional game alongside. Well, I think that's... Leinster, for all their, you know, what people say about them, it's not just that they have got a huge ton of money, but also most of those players are homegrown, and their dream has always been, from the age of 12, to wear the blue of Leinster. You know, and that's a real, real pull. They are the Death Star. There's no doubt in that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But, you know, come on. Come on. Who's more unlikable? Leinster, now, or Saracens at their peak? Oh, they're always Saracens. I don't think there's a comparison. Saracens are the Death Star. They were the Red Bull Formula One team of the rugby world. The thing is, I just think it's because they had unlikable players at Saracens. I don't think Leinster players are as unlikable. I agree. Yeah, yeah, it's true. But Leinster as an organisation, I think, because it literally is faceless. They were playing for Leinster. I couldn't tell who they are, and I'm sure the coach is good, but they just turn up, and they're these identical players. It's true. And that's the URC's challenge. You were a club, probably, a Benettoner club with an ambition. Yeah. But there's not many clubs that can be ambitious, because it really is about those budgets, isn't it? And if you compare the play and resources of some of the lesser teams. We were talking about this on our podcast recently, which is basically that's the joy of the Challenge Cup, because the Challenge Cup, in theory, is a winnable tournament for Benetton, because Leinster aren't in it. That's literally what we said. Of course. That's it, yeah. Otherwise, it ends in tears for everyone. But that's sport, isn't it? There's always a team slightly better than everyone else. Yeah. But in European rugby, there are other teams that can hold Leinster account, but they're the ones we all know. Toulouse, La Rochelle. Well, clearly not the other day, though. Yeah. Not in WFL weeks, no. That was an unbelievable performance. They're so good. Like I said, I don't hate Leinster, but I am insanely sick with jealousy, because they keep winning everything. They're just saying, all these players, playing the school system, these kids. It's a different world, isn't it? We'll never be as good as Leinster, but hey-ho. Right. I want to get your guys' thoughts on Italy. I think we should talk about Italy, because it's going well, isn't it? Italian rugby has a very good six nations. So two wins over Scotland and Wales, a draw against France, which really should have been a win. I mean, I still don't understand how that ball came off the tee. I've watched it several times. The route was closed. There was no end. I don't get it. How did that happen? So it should have been three wins. It's the first time since 2013 Italy has achieved at least two wins in a six nations tournament, and the first time since 2015 they have not finished bottom of the table. So they were making strides with Kieran Crowley, as we know, but Gonzalo Casano looks to be a very good appointment to see. So what are your thoughts on Italy and their progression? Well, I think it's been a long time coming. Yeah. I was a little bit... I was very annoyed when they sacked Kieran Crowley before the World Cup had even started. They basically said, like, he's going to finish with the World Cup. That's it. He's out. Because I thought that what he's been doing has been phenomenal and the attack that he's built has been incredible and exciting and just something that we'd never really seen in Italian rugby. However, I have on our own podcast eaten my words, taken them back. Because I think what Gonzalo has done has brought... Well, he's sharpened up the defence in a way that he knew we needed, but didn't realise how urgently it could be done and how well it could be done. And I don't know. It's easy to say, but I don't know whether we would have got those two wins in a draw without him. Which, you know, considering he only joined Italy at the beginning of January, that he'd only had about... With some of the players, he'd had about two weeks before their first game. I think it's phenomenal. Obviously, Kieran built a lot of the foundations. Gonzalo's just very, very, very detailed and I think we needed detail. And I think that was a difference for me because I could see it was very exciting, the Italian team, but it looked hugely unstructured to me. And I am a fan of really boring rugby. And if you're going to kick a ball, kick a ball with purpose. And the Italian team felt like kicking particularly just seemed... Yeah. And then this season... And before the season, I was talking to some friends of mine and I said, yeah, I don't see them doing it. You know, they don't kick the ball with any real sense of directional purpose. And it was very different. Italy, I was very wrong. And it was interesting to see the impact of it because they had the attacking flair of Galbizia and those guys, but they also had structure and organisation and that made the difference. The defence that they put in against France, I think, blew all of our minds because that could have been... The way that that France game started, I was like, oh God, we're in for a really long afternoon. And they managed to hold them out in a way that I've never seen Italy do. But you know, Gonzalo Quesada has done a lot of that, but Marius Gussen was still the defence coach and he'd been the defence coach for ages. It's about letting these things click and the players getting to a right age. And also, you know, obviously they famously beat Wales two years ago. I don't remember that, sorry. I've got no recollection of that whatsoever. We'll send you the highlights. I'll send you some highlights. Don't bother, I'm OK, I'm good. And then last year, because of that, you know, people were expecting a lot from Italy. But, you know, coming up to a World Cup and, you know, that's when the teams are at their absolute peak. And I remember because we were in Rome last year to watch them play Wales. And there was an atmosphere before the game that Italy were going to beat Wales. The Welsh fans looked a little bit nervous. And then Gatland just did what Gatland does. He pulled an absolute masterclass and they undid Italy and Italy choked. And it was like, oh no, but OK, learn from that. But then winning breeds winning. And so I think they built a lot of confidence as the Six Nations went on. They lost to England by three points as well. You know, that's not a lot for an Italy-England game. Three points. And the France game, I think, was the absolute moment. If you can play in France with that hostile crowd and be in the running like that, and then it was the first time they'd won at home against, well, they beat Scotland, but the first time they'd won at home for how many years? 11 years. That changes absolutely everything. And what I would say is exciting is that it's the players that aren't picked. If you talk about depth, you know, Simone and Jesse have been scoring tries for fun for Zebrae Palmer. He didn't see a game in the Six Nations. And that's something that Italy have never really had. We've had decent sides over the years, but the depth hasn't been there. And I think now, actually, if you look across the board, like in the forwards and the backs, there's depth in a way that we've never seen before. And so they're able to pick on form in a way that they've never been able to do in recent times. So in the past, you have a player, I'm not going to mention any names, I don't want to be mean, but say you've got a player, particularly potentially on the wing, let's say, who hasn't been playing very well, but he's scored a couple of good tries in the past. And you'd find those kind of players being picked in the hope rather than expectation that they could do something good. Whereas now, for the first time that I've ever seen with Italy, there's proper competition for places. When a team comes out, there are some very, very decent players who are disappointed. And I think that becomes a bit of a snowball effect in how they push each other and what they're able to do. What you're describing essentially is where Wales is right now, that we're picking players because that's what we've got, rather than because they're probably ready for international rugby. Yeah, I mean, the opposite. Exactly right. But also the opposite in that I think Wales now, unless I'm wrong, they're picking very young players who may not be ready. Whereas Italy would be picking players who have been, in all nicest way, tried and tested and found wanting, but still being picked. Because there was no one else. And then also you put into account the under 20s and the age group levels, which have been doing pretty well. And the mentality shift in that, that those guys are not afraid of lining up against England because they beat England at under 20. Yeah. And it's a different mindset. I have a question about Italian rugby, because I must admit, I don't really know a lot about it. Who plays rugby in Italy? Is it a specific region? Is there a specific class of people? It's not a class thing, but it's definitely a regional thing. So if you look at where Zebra and Venetian both are, I mean, Zebra were put in Parma, but actually almost all of the rugby that is played in Italy, the vast majority is in Veneto, which is the sort of region. North-East around Veneto. The North-Eastern region. They're trying to spread the game. And obviously there are rugby clubs in Milan and there are rugby clubs in Rome and there are a couple down in Sicily, but really from Rome down, there's not very much rugby at all. But yeah, not a lot of people play rugby. But then because Italians are very proud and if your team's losing, then it's hard to get a nation behind it. But I think Italy is a sleeping giant because there's 60 million of them and they've shown if they start winning at a sport, they get behind it. And if 60 million people get behind Italian rugby, well, that's a bit of a sleeping giant. And the FIR are trying to collaborate now with the Fiji Chi, which is the football union, to try and promote the game more to young kids because in Italy, everyone only ever cares about football. In fact, if you speak to the vast majority of Italy rugby players, they will all have started as footballers or wanting to be footballers. And then, I don't know, their uncle said, come and try this game out and they knew nothing about it and kind of fell in love with it that way. So it's just about exposing more young children to it. But in answer to your question, so yeah, it's mainly in the northeast rugby. Milan used to have a very good rugby playing population and still does. But the issue is it's got no representation at the elite level and neither does Rome because of the two URC franchises, which are Benetton in the northeast and Parma, which is northeast-ish, north-ish. And then they've got a league below it, similar to the Welsh Premiership, which is the Italian semi-professional Serie A elite. But to spread, if you wanted the strongest teams, potentially, there's two other sides, which are about half an hour drive each from Treviso, which are called Rovigo and Petrarca, who are in Padua. Those two sides could be like Benetton because they've got very wealthy owners. They could get huge financial backing. So if they were put in the URC immediately, you could expect them to do really, really well. The issue is, well, then you're not spreading the game at all. You're literally putting these clubs, which are 20 minutes apart, because that's the rugby heartlands. This sounds really agave, doesn't it? It's been too close together in Wales. Yeah, it really does. All the two or four Welsh franchises, the central and eastern ones are 20 miles from each other, and the two western ones are 20 miles from each other. They're just the valleys that circulate. So Rovigo, the brother of a guy I've played sevens with, Perry Parker, he went to Rovigo five or six years ago, and they were throwing money around. Yeah. And they spend quite big for a semi-professional outfit that only plays Italian domestic rugby. So one can only imagine what they could do if they were given a seat at the top table. The issue is that... Zebra listeners. Well, this isn't our podcast. We can say what we want. I don't think we get many Zebra listeners. Yeah. Zebra Palmer, for the URC to want to have another Italian side, it will mean that Zebra Palmer need to win a bit more than they're currently doing. Otherwise you go, well, hang on, why don't we give you another one? Yeah. They pay the money for it, but hang on, is that good for the product, having another one when one of your teams finishes bottom basically all the time? But having another Italian side makes more sense to me than some of the things you see about... Well, let's have a German club or a European club. What they should do really is, if they put one in Rome, it would work. Because also Palmer isn't particularly easy to get. So I'm not saying get rid of Zebra, absolutely keep Zebra Palmer. And as you've seen, they play some really exciting rugby and they've won some games this season and they got to the playoffs of the Challenge Cup. So they're not mugs either, but put one in Rome or put one in Milan. Someone that's easy to get to and that's got a big population to get people behind it. And also just to get more people, more young kids playing rugby and knowing about rugby because at the minute, and it is getting a little bit more popular and hopefully we'll snowball. But right now, basically if you play rugby, you're playing it because your dad played it or your uncle played it. Nobody comes to rugby in Italy without some sort of familial connection. I think that's the same everywhere. I coach in the tens and I find the vast majority of the kids there, parents have played rugby. Yeah. Yeah, the coaches. Rugby is a minority sport everywhere, really. Even in Wales. I thought in Wales it was like the sport. It is. It's football, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It's football. Football's always been really big but the participation of rugby is quite sizable in Wales. But that is severely dropping off. There are big clubs, Tredegar, which was a first-class team in the 70s and my dad played for. They've not been in the league for two years. They can't get sidelined. It's shrinking. Yeah, wow. The clocker because we've had some success in football. Yeah. That's the thing. I don't want to be mean to the Welsh but when your football team isn't good and your rugby team is doing really well, if you're a teenager, it's a no-brainer which way you go. But with Gareth Bale and you've had some pretty decent Welsh football going on and that would suck fans in, I guess. And it does. Absolutely. Rugby can never compete with football just as a rule. It's just impossible. And so it shouldn't try to. It just shouldn't not try to. Football's easy to play. There's no denigration of football. Anybody can organise a game of football because you just need a round ball and a man to land. Whereas rugby requires quite a few things. There's a certain kind of playing area and understanding of the unnecessary... Yeah, yeah. So true. It is a complicated game, though, because Jonathan Davis-Triffey on the BBC always says, it's an easy game, it's a simple game. I think, well, no, it's not because they're tweaking the rules all the bloody time. Yeah. I can't keep up with them now. But it was deliberately designed to be complicated to keep the working class out. That's why it was designed with the complicated laws. Really? No. Because football had grown up in the public schools and association football became more and more popular and they thought, well, we'll make something that's slightly more complicated and we'll keep the riffraff out. That's... I mean... What brought the Welsh to play it? Well... Well, it's changed our podcast. It's been a real... It's been a real pleasure, guys. It was brought in in the school system but there was a point where rugby league looked like it would be the sport in South Wales. Some of the rugby union clubs, Ebbw Vale, Aberavon, they were rugby league teams for a period of time and Newport and Cardiff were invited to go to the meeting up in Haddersfield to join the rugby league. Wow. And if that happened then it could have been entirely different. Imagine. Yes. Sliding door moment. Yeah. Wow. I wasn't expecting to be talking about this on the podcast. It's still 3DT, haven't we? I want to get back to... I'm sorry. No, it's okay. It's fine. It's quite interesting, actually. I want to get back to it because isn't it nice to see Italy doing well? Purely because, Del, we don't have to hear the tedious bloody bollocks of kick Italy out and replace it with Georgia because I was getting so tired of hearing that. But what we're hearing now is kick Wales out and replace them. Yeah, yeah. So it's a different conversation altogether. Yeah. The Six Nations needs are strong in Italy and I'd love to see Italy doing so well. Yeah. It's good to see, isn't it? I think what's finally really satisfying for us who have been kind of banging the drums like it's coming, it's coming, it's coming, is that I think it has arrived. I think Italy, like this Six Nations, obviously they've kind of cemented themselves and it's very easy to go like, oh, well, you know, is this a one-off? I don't think it is. I hope I don't have to eat my words, but I really don't think I will. I think this is now, especially with this crop of players and this crop of players are very young across the board, I think this is Italy probably for the next, you know, five, six, seven years, they should be winning at least two games every Six Nations. And in regards to Georgia, you know, it was so frustrating, these conversations, but our social media was absolutely appalling. It was depressing. It was so depressing. And then you hear some intelligent people saying, I don't want to be mean, but I'm not going to say any names, but Sam Warburton. Warburton, yeah, we know. He was the one. Tom Chasplin at times could be unbearable about these things, you know, not just announcing Welsh celebrities, but it was never anti-Georgia. And that's the important thing. And actually, you know, people say kick Wales out. Obviously that's in jest because Wales is a rugby powerhouse and it's, you know, it will find its feet very soon and it'll be back again. So this is a temporary moment for Welsh rugby. But Italy and Wales are the only two teams that give Georgia a crack. And, you know, they've both been at the losing end of a Georgian side over the last couple of years. But people, you know, let's bring Georgia in, let's bring Georgia. Well, hang on a minute. When was the last time England went to Tbilisi? You know, they're not going. You know, no one's going. It's all words. And it's a bit frustrating. You know, the only teams that play them are Italy and Wales. Well, we wouldn't play them in Tbilisi. They'd come to Cardiff. There's no way we're going. My goodness, all this talk, now we may do, but I don't, I don't think there is. Italy went in Tbilisi. Where was it? It was somewhere else in Georgia. I just find it incredibly frustrating. Firstly, none of the unions are going to agree to it. So stop having the conversation. Secondly, none of the TV companies are going to agree to it. And the most important thing as well, and, you know, everyone can disagree with, Georgia aren't very good. Well, that's it. That's the other thing. Well, are they good enough to, would they be any better than Italy have been over recent years? No, no. They'd be considerably worse. They're actually, yeah. Whatever it's called, the second reason thing, I've seen Belgium play. Yeah, of course they've beaten them. They aren't very good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is a real drop off and Georgia are kind of probably always going to win that. But of course, Portugal, you know, and what's interesting is that there was this, the Rugby World Cup did a great job for getting people to watch Portuguese rugby and stuff, but it didn't actually transpire into people watching European rugby during this nation. People weren't watching it. So, yeah, I mean, I think the six nations could grow, but I don't see how it would happen with, particularly with 23 person squads. I've got all these sort of avant-garde out there ideas of how you could do it. You make less subs. So then you put less people in a contact situation every week, and then you could put more games in. But no one's asking me for my opinions. That was rough. No, that's fair enough. I'm not a fan of this promotion renegation chart. I'm sorry. I want to grow the game. And yes, I do think teams like, you know, Georgia should get more games against T1 in Portugal and that, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The six nations are a great tournament. Leave it alone. Leave it alone. No, well, that's the thing. So if you want, you know, first things first, just get them more fixtures. Before you mess with the six nations, just get them more fixtures in the autumn, get them more fixtures in the summer. And then if, you know, and then go on from there, but don't, and as you said, the unions would never agree to it because as we've seen, you know, famously, you know, far more than I will, but Wales have had some financial difficulties. The RFU, you know, they've lost how many clubs in the premiership in the last couple of years, you know, no one. It's so bad to see. No one can afford to drop out of the six nations. Cause if you drop out, you're gone. That's it dies on the spot. So why would, why would any of the shareholding nations ever buy into it? The professional rugby nations are, are kind of funded by the major competitions. They play in the fans, our sides, the six nations sides, Georgia is the only really professional rugby nation that isn't part of a major competition. Yeah. And before, so before you do that, let's put the black lions into the URC or something like that. You know, that that's a stepping stone and I think that'd be fun. Um, not instead of anyone, not instead of anyone. I don't have a fix. But yes, all in all, I'm very glad that, uh, we have shut up the kick Italy out. So am I. So am I. Cause it's so bloody boring. Right. Let's I'm conscious of time. I feel like I've kept you for ages. Let's look ahead to this weekend. So Benetton versus dragons on Saturday, kickoff is at two o'clock. The game is live on S4C in the UK. What did they show it in Italy? Is this Sky Italia? So actually they, they, yeah, it is on, I think it's Sky Arena. They show a lot of the games on, but they also occasionally put it on normal TV. Um, occasionally, not all of them, but yeah, normally it's on Sky. Oh yeah. Okay. Okay. That's interesting. So head to head, these two teams have played each other 22 times. Benetton have won 13, dragons have won eight, and it's been one draw. Benetton have only lost once at home. In any competition since March, 2023. Now, Ellie, you talked about away form for Benetton. Dragons have not won away in the URC since beating Scarlet back in April, 2022. So if you think your away form is gash, uh, okay. Uh, the last three games between these two sides in the championship have resulted in a win a piece plus a draw. Dragons have won just twice. Intraviso. The first time was in March, 2015. Gav, when was the last time you beat Benetton Intraviso? It was pre-COVID. I want to say 2018. Nope. It was November, 2020. I was going to say 2020. Yeah. It was a behind closed doors game. Yes. In our terrible season where we basically didn't win a game. That would have been it. That's why dragons won. Yeah. It all adds up. Yeah. Makes total sense. So, um, yeah. So I was listening to your pod this morning, spritz and scrums on the way to work and you were having a debate about selection for this game because you have got a massive game coming up with you against Gloucester in the challenge cup. I mean, that is going to be a fantastic game. I mean, there's a new track. I'll wait for that. Well, I'd like to see Benetton win. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You had, yeah, you have the debate about selection. Some of you were saying that you should go full strength for this. I think it was you. Eddie was kind of like, Oh no, no, no. How do you guys think Benetton? Cause we're recording this on Thursday night. We don't know the teams yet. How do you think Benetton will approach this game? Because they are still in contention for the USC playoffs. Yeah. If they lose this, then it really makes it difficult for them, doesn't it? To get into that playoff. But how do you think they're going to approach it? If they lose this game, I think their chances of getting a playoff are over. That's it. It's finished. Their BKT-URC season is done. Yeah, because they have a horrid sort of end of season. They go down South Africa. Ulster away, and they've got South Africa, the Sharks and the Bulls down there. So it's, they really need these points. Yeah. I think they've got enough depth that they can put out a sort of 1.5, a first 15.5. Yeah. That is where I think they will be. And I think it will depend on who's got a little niggle or who's got a bit of an injury of who they'll pick. Yeah. I think Borjolami, I read an interview with him today, and he was saying that, yeah, expect some of the players who haven't had as much game time, but are definitely on form in training to be picked. If I was being really ruthless, what I think I would do, and again, no one's going to pay me for these opinions because they're garbage. I might pick basically a full strength side to play the Dragons and try and get a bonus point, which Benetton have really struggled. No offense, but that's pick a full, go full for it, try and get a bonus point. And then if you have to pick a weaker side, send your weaker side to Ulster, get them traveling on the plane, all that discomfort for a game that you're probably going to lose anyway. I see the logic of that. I see what you're saying, because it's highly unlikely you're going to win in Ulster way. So put everything into this game, get the five points. So that does make sense. Yeah, I think it's, yeah. I wonder if Beckton, Ben and Shallow will play though, because I hope they don't, Percy, because how good were they, by the way, the Six Nations? Oh, they are. I mean, I think my thing that I keep saying is like, if you're keeping Malachi, Fecatoa off of starting, you must be insane. And the two of them are insane. They are just, they work in this beautiful symbiotic pairing. Yeah. And so they, they basically, they, they play like, you know, conjoined twins. They know exactly what the other one's going to do, but the stats about these guys. So men and shallow youngest ever score in the Six Nations and just got player of the tournament in the Six Nations. Yeah. Brex got player of the game, play of the match, four games in a row. And two of them were in the Six Nations, two games in the Six Nations. And he went back to Bennett and then got player of the match in his next two games. So, yes, uh, you know, uh, but then also they've got a great sense of drag. They've got, I think you might see, I don't, I think, I don't know whether they're going to play Brexit manager. They, they might put Drago and Fecatoa on, but also Brex and Menoncello, I can't say a famous last words of basically indestructible type players. I feel like they could just keep going and going. And they're such workhorses. Yeah. Brex is massively overworked. I think Brex could deserve it. I think Brex might have a week off. Um, Menoncello is a bit young. So maybe they're like, well, give him another run around. But what about facing Malakai Fecatoa instead of those two? I know, right? We were very great. Uh, yeah, that feels good. Yeah, yeah. Fecatoa? He's our B player, yeah. It shows the difference between the two teams. So Gav, look, Benetton have played 19 games, no competitions. And they've lost just five of them, right? It's pretty impressive. Now we're coming into this game, off the back of a win against Zimba. But this is a much bigger challenge, it's fair to say, isn't it? Especially given our dreadful away form. Let's try and be positive, Gav. Can we get anything out of this game? Yeah, a losing bonus point. That's fine. That's as positive as we can get. Yeah, that's, that's something. Yeah. I'm not going to sit here and say, oh, we'll beat Ben's on away. Because that would be foolish. I don't think we will beat them. But I think we could probably hold them within a sensible scoreline. That's what I love about these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, 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these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these,