Pathways and Positivity with Gruff Rees:

The Cardiff Central Podcast featured guest Griff Rees, Cardiff development and ex-Ospreys head coach. They discussed the news of Reece Carrey leaving Cardiff rugby to rejoin Saracens. Griff praised Carrey's contribution to the team and mentioned the need to find replacements for him. They also discussed the possibility of Rhys Barrett stepping up and the importance of the EBC league for development players. Griff talked about the support provided to players during injuries and the progress of young players like Harry Wilde and Lucas de la Rua in the under-20s team. Welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast. Hello and welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast. I'm Darren Harris. And as always, Harley, how are you doing Harley? I'm doing well, thank you. Nice to be recording tonight. Yeah, it's nice to be recording tonight. And yeah, short notice, I'm very lucky to have a star guest. It's Griff Rees, Cardiff development and ex-Ospreys head coach as well. But focusing on the Cardiff element this week. Thanks so much for taking the call, Griff, and coming on this week. It's a pleasure. No, it's quite timely. There's lots of good stuff going on in the academy world. And yeah, anything, any information we can get out of it, the more the better. Yeah, well, it couldn't be a better timing, really, with everything that's going on in Cardiff rugby, all the positives. But, you know, there's so much news going on at the moment. Let's probably approach that initially with the news of Reece Carrey is the big news this week. Sadly for Cardiff fans, he's set to leave Cardiff rugby and rejoining Saracens. From your perspective, Griff, it's obviously not ideal to see Reece Carrey leave, but he's been one hell of a servant for Cardiff over the years, hasn't he? Yeah, definitely. I remember my first year in the job running the A-team programme, actually, that was 2018. And Reece played a bit of senior rugby, been involved on the RSC. But I was taken aback watching him train closely, because obviously I'd been in my osprey world for quite a while and I was playing a little bit of catch-up then. And seeing him train and where he was at physically, you could see there was, I thought there was something, and it is something special there, and seeing that over the next couple of years. And, you know, being good friends with Richard Wigglesworth at Saracens, and I remember they signed him first-time rounds. I was delighted when he came back. And I think he's been unbelievably good in terms of our senior programme over the last two or three years. And, yeah, he's probably been unfortunate in many respects and non-selection along the way. Yeah, none better than his two-try performance on the weekend, which we will get into later on against Leinster. A couple of fans have sort of tongue-in-cheek perhaps asked, are there any props in the pathway that you can suggest that can fill his rather large boot? Yeah, and it's just, I mean, as I said, we do our weekly recruitment and we're connected nicely with Matt Sherratt and obviously the vision and where we want to go with things. We think a lot of Rhys Barrett, obviously we've invested heavily and supported him pre- and post-lockdown, as we have obviously with a number of other players who've probably had more sort of eyes on them this year. But we think Rhys has taken away nicely behind the scenes. But there is probably a gap in terms of loose-leg recruitment, which seniors need to consider. We probably as an academy, we have got some gaps around, if you look at Wales 20 squads, because we invested so long in the previous group. We've probably got a little gap in terms of, you know, potentially there's financial challenges at the time for us not to contract people. So there's gaps for us between 19 and 21 whilst acknowledging people like Mackenzie, Alex Mann, Cam Wynner, that's all their demographic anyway. But yeah, we're probably at 16 to 18 is our next sort of wave. And there's a couple of real quality front rowers coming out of that group. But again, it is an area for us as Cardiff rugby that needs to be addressed. A bit on Rhys Barrett, obviously, he's played a bit of rugby, but do you think he's ready now for, we've obviously seen it work so well with Alex and Cam stepping straight in next season, in the third season of pro rugby, full season of pro rugby I should say. Do you think Rhys is ready for that next season to step straight in in that, well, behind Domichowski initially and perhaps challenging him further on down the road? I think he could do. And I think with the right people around him, I think he'd be well equipped and supported adequately. And he's got a wonderful feel for the game. I just think it's sometimes that real top end level around set piece physicality. In an ideal world, we probably would want to have another year or so of good development, getting another dozen to 15 Prem games or EBC, whatever that may look like. And that could be important for Rhys. And taking our time with it as well. I think the other boys have been in different positions, been able to thrive, but I think front rowers a little bit later, perhaps, in terms of their training history. Just as you mentioned the EBC, so we do have a small question on that. So with the whole, are the rags going to be in or are they not? Has that been something that you've been involved with, the decision, or is that something you've sort of ignored and focused more on the academy side of things? No, I've kept abreast of everything and been in the room with Richard Holland, with Mirtha Ponty and everything that went on there. And I have been quite compromised because developmentally, if it's the best competition, we needed that forum for development players. But I understood the business reasons why we couldn't commit initially. So to be fair, I've been in the loop and understood where and how I'd perhaps have to adapt player plans if things were going the other way. But hopefully we're back on track in terms of possibly having an opportunity to get into that league. Sorry, do you therefore, where do you see that league being? If Cardiff are taking part in it, do you see it as being where Cardiff need to be? Is that where you see it? Is it that important for Cardiff to be part of it, you think? And vice versa, it seems like Ponty and Mirtha are going to miss out. How big a loss is it for them? Yeah, obviously, I have to consider the fact we wouldn't in terms of player plans. And then looking at a huge majority of academy players, I would try and support around some of the backs rugby models. We've got a lot of guys who are going to be around university placements and they'll still have that allocation. That's really important to us. But there probably would be a number of players. We'd be looking at level of rugby and in an ideal world, I'd probably want to bridge the gap differently to seniors, but that's a different debate potential. If this is the best, I think it is important that we've got that platform. Whether the league changes dramatically next year, I still think a lot of the teams will have the same players. I generally think it's possibly for three, six years around the academy vision and numbers that we can get the best of that. That said, I think it's as good as we can get to next year. We've still done what we've done really well with the rags, is aligning to the seniors in terms of the right people in the building, the same use of language, game plan, S&C, GPS data. So we're doing it on a high performance level and that's one of the exciting things that I've enjoyed. The academy doing that post lockdown is looking at your cabangos, beefums, having good role models around them. Evan Daniel, let alone the guys who've done the Welsh stuff recently, it's been a whole host of players that I think, as I said, haven't been perfect because the calendar gives us challenges, but I think it's the best fit you can do around the model of the game at the moment. Sorry, as you just mentioned beefing the cabangos, I've got questions coming to my head. You've probably seen first-hand how difficult it was for them during that period of them having those serious injuries. Obviously, cabangos out again now. During those developmental years, it's so important. We see so many players lose out as a result of these horrific injuries. What were the structures that you managed to get in place around them to support them during those difficult times where they weren't able to play rugby for almost a year, maybe almost two years? Yeah, definitely. Obviously, from our point of view, you get affinity with them as people. You want the best for them. You want to support the family. In both cases, it can be really hard, and our medical team are really proficient in terms of each stage and everything you've got to go through X amount of time. But I think it is just picking up a lot of the informal conversations, texts and support, but also around Jacob in particular. We have people who advise and support, who've got expertise around well-being, and I think that's important because that's one of the biggest challenges. I didn't always see it as a coach. Sometimes you just don't disregard. You never do that to people around your environment. But it can quickly become an afterthought around everyone chasing high performance when these guys just need the right nurturing and help. Moving on to some of the players we've seen developing, starting to break through. In the end of the 20s, you had Harry Wilde starting the first three games in the 20s. Lucas de la Rua has played all three back row positions. How do you find the end of the 20s has been to help their progress? I think it's healthy for them. It's obviously aspirational. I think it's the three feathers. I think that is huge. A lot of them, some of their short-term goals are based around that. You want to make sure you give them the best provision to get there around playing minutes, training. For me as well, I think it is healthy sometimes to have different coaches with different ideas. Sometimes Harry might say, Rich, we think this is slightly different to where we are. I think that's healthy for coaches to discuss. Especially if the player knows why there's a difference, I think that can grow some of their capacity to develop from a tactical and a game point of view as well. As well as we've got pretty healthy relations in terms of aligning then for the S and C plans. It doesn't become a void. If they go there, then they come back to us. It should connect anyway. Our coach is spending time with those important also. Harry in particular, he's missing this week. He's got a bit of a knock. I saw him go off against Ireland. How quickly do you think he can get into the pro game? Obviously, his game time has been mixed and matched with Adwell Robson. He's been playing a lot for Cardiff as well. He probably needs a bit more game time perhaps at that level before he makes a step up to pro rugby. Yes, he does. His name has been spoken of highly last summer as a potential. For us, that was just a lot around the circumstances and numbers in the building. To be fair to Matt as well, he brought Adwell in to buy us a little bit of time to support Harry's development off the field and making sure we're getting it right. Potentially, physically, he's a great athlete. You're absolutely right. He needs nurturing and game time to be able to plan, play and review properly as well with the likes of Dan Fish doing that. Ironically, Harry hasn't been able to have it. His first game of the season was mid-October because he came back a bit later from the Twenties World Cup against Neath. He picked up an injury straight away. He was then out until the New Year. He only picked up marginal minutes before going into the Twenties camp. He was a little bit undercooked. I felt he was actually ticking nicely. Third game in, he started to get a bit of rhythm. Unfortunately, he's going to be out for a few weeks or so now. It's a difficult balance, isn't it? You want them to be playing at the highest level internationally but also being part of these squads. Additionally, they need the game time and that nurturing. That balance isn't always available. One of the biggest examples recently, Evan Lloyd, part of the Wales international set-up, part of the squad, was released, didn't get the opportunity with Cardiff, hasn't been released and then doesn't get a chance in the team again. Where do you see that? I remember before the season, us chatting and you spoke so highly of him as a prospect for the future. Yeah, definitely. It's probably often the curse around international camps, often the third nine, the third two, just become important around the environment but don't get the opportunity then to harness their trade. That is key around Evan Lloyd's development. We got really excited. We made a call last year that we had a really talented back-rower but we felt for him to really push on to the top level, the hooker conversion, especially compared to what we had in the building as well at the time in the back row, was going to be a good opportunity for him as well. Again, looking at succession planning and a couple of gaps in there. It's been quite exciting to see the journey from playing for Global Wanderers in the Champ as a hooker and had some struggles there around line-out calling and obviously technically then working day in, day out with the likes of TRT, Scott Andrews, have been really important in that journey the last 12, 18 months. But then seeing him then when he went into the senior environment to train, again, how good he was effectively, some of his ball-carrying footwork, and you just know he's going to be comfortable around the pro game and being able to furnish in what he's good at as well. I think it's just for that, just the time and energy around the line-out, but the scrum in particular as well being a big one. But again, learning from the likes of Liam Boucher, a really good senior scrimmaging hooker around the pro game and good people around him as well in terms of international front-rowers. Boucher has been superb. Obviously through the set-piece, it's often labelled as repetition, repetition, repetition, isn't it? That's the best way to get to learn and get to know the systems. But really, how easy is that without the in-game management? How do you replicate that, especially for a young hooker who's still learning the calls and not getting the game time that he wants? Is that an additional problem, do you think, that even if he's having that repetition, he's not getting the in-game experience of it? Yeah, I mean, you do try and replicate intensity and then scoreboard-type stuff, and obviously they take them to the limits physically around some of the metres per minute and three minutes ball in play and really testing it, where you go hopefully training over and beyond the game. But I think, and again, we do some side work behind the scene as well, but I don't even truly replicate being in the middle of it. And even, ironically, Evans, one of his last games as a hooker was against RGC for the RSC in the New Year when, as a team, we were tactically a bit fragmented and some of the messaging got lost. That was a brilliant learning opportunity for him, and he needs more of that in terms of his exposure. But yeah, it's just been inconsistent the way it's happened a little bit. But as I said, he's so exciting and so young and so coachable with it. We're always confident we'll get... I always felt we'd get to an end point with him at 23, 24, then he'd be ready for international class. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it for him to go against Italy. I think he'd be mentally and physically fine, it's just probably the technical in-between. One last one on Evans in particular, because it is so interesting how quickly he's converted. And obviously yourself, you identified him at the start of the season to me, and Gatland's identified him quite early on as well. With him, what was it that you saw and went, he could really make it as a hooker? What was it about him, you mentioned the coachable element, and how did he receive that information when he said, we're going to give it a go and try and move you to hooker? Yeah, it was probably seeing the good in Evan and then looking at where his game was at. He's a tough old customer as well, so I felt he had the mindset around the front row. We discussed it a lot behind the scenes as staff, and that's academy staff, but also including someone like Steve Law in Cardiff RFC, who'd obviously seen Evan. But we were all of the consensus, and I respect that, I always take counsel around the coaches I've got in the building, the senior coaches. I think the general consensus, and this is where I had to go there with Evan, that he could probably end up as a real competent number eight in the premiership, for example, and be one of the best for 10 years. But we had to look at a different solution for what could we do a little bit more with Evan, based on something that was there and tangible for us as probability. So the front row was a logical leap, and then it was about convincing Evan that he was rescaling some of his contractual stuff at the time as well, to reflect that and try and support him. But giving him that hope at a time which, again, a hint of rejection around it as well in terms of the back row. But again, I've not slighted on him as a back rower there. Our perception was the prem thing, only because we knew we had a lot of confidence around Alex Mann, Mackenzie Martin. And again, at a time when you're looking at a back row senior resources that included what we've got now, as well as Josh Navidi and one or two others as well. Yeah, absolutely. I just wanted to quickly delve into the thing, because you mentioned obviously converting Evan Lloyd, but I mean, I may be mistaken, but we've had some of the things with Jacob Beetham, I think originally came through as a 10. Owen Lane started off in the centre, and they've both been moved into the back three. Just wondering, when you're deciding on players and potentially switching them, is it a necessity thing when you look at where there's holes in the squad that you think players can fill, or do you look at their skill set? As you said, Evan Lloyd might have made a top end premiership eight, but had the potential to become a proper senior level hooker. Is there a balance between those? It is. I mean, I've only ever seen two or three cast iron certainties for the programme at 15, 16, but we are making a lot of judgments around that 16, 17 year old group based on what talent in the end. We have got indicators of talent and looking at it from a physical point of view when a lot of our ID characteristics are based around the person, the mental aspects, the holistic aspects. So we feel we're getting the right people in the building. But I think, yeah, sometimes it's reacting to circumstances and you've got to be fluid around the academy contracting model and the amount of players in the building and financial challenges at times as well. Jacob's an interesting one, actually, because, yeah, he was a competence, more than competence, that's an unfair word, in terms of out of half and under 18 level. But, again, looking at, and again, it probably is based on a lot of my experiences and my gut around Jacob, where he was at the time, trying to run a game as a 10 and see a wonderful athlete and wonderful skill set, but perhaps not connecting some of the tactical strands of the game at the time. We didn't contract him at 18 and we just said to him, you've got to look a little bit around possibly being a 15, we'll help set you up around that, around the provision of training and S&C support and provide playing opportunities in Glamorgan Wanderers in the championship, for example. So for someone who's figured around Wales 18 squads, again, that's a hint of a challenging conversation, but Jacob was so open and supportive to be as good as he can be, he bought into it. And I think, obviously, I was supporting that in terms of his playing there, reviewing it effectively with, again, people like Dan Fish, Richie Rees, heavily immersed in it, and it was obvious to us as well that he started to see the game a bit different in backfield, and we saw him then have an opportunity around Wales 19's runner group at the time, so we put him forward for that and he flourished. And then, obviously, very quickly, once you start to see where it could go, then the contracting starts to take place around more of a certainty as a 15 for us in the system, and then he played Wales 20's the year after, probably outplayed Freddie Stewart that day in terms of England, Wales and the 20's. So for us, we were really confident where we were, and obviously then the RSC, just partly because of the people he's around, but the way he is, the way he could interact with the semi-professionals, take on key messages. It was, yeah, it went pretty exciting pretty quickly for us all, and then, obviously, that injury stuff and a couple of little setbacks here and there, but, again, you see him training with Wales and he's an international player and waiter. Thanks. So just moving on to a couple of players who have met, who have broken through pretty much straight from Cardiff straight into the Wales squad, so you've had, I think, Mackenzie Martin and Alex Malas, you know, well, both, well, Alex Malas started two games on the bench, and Mackenzie Martin's been involved in the last two. Do you think that's more, you know, is that a good testament for the development of Cardiff? Do you think they've hit that international level at the right time? Do you think, ideally, they might have had another season or two at Cardiff first before going up? Yeah, I remember speaking with Alex Malas last April, and we were looking to perhaps extend his season a little bit. He played in the cup final for Cardiff RSC against Newport. We thought, well, we may as well keep going now through to the play-offs, and, you know, Alex is a strong character and just wants to say, no, I'm stepping back, I've got a few bumps and bruises. I want to speak to the medical guys, and I think probably, if I can get a little bit of my time done earlier, because we set him up ready to go training in the summer with the seniors, we thought that would enable him to be able to hit the ground running around pre-season, and, you know, I think it became a good work in progress, and hopefully a sign of what we do in the academy, we collaborate and try and put those individual needs first, and, yeah, you could just see him flourishing around the senior environment. We can't deny both players, it's a little bit circumstantial in terms of the opportunities where, you know, the squad was reduced, and it's a bit of a line in the sand, really, in terms of providing opportunities. But having understood that landscape, you can't speak highly enough of Matt Shellett and the senior coaches, you know, then putting a framework in place of, you know, this is the playing group, and this is how we're going to support them, and this is our vision for what we could do with these guys, A, in the short term, in terms of their playing opportunities, but also in the long term for these guys to thrive at regional and international levels, so it's probably come quicker than we thought, but I think it's the characteristics of the player, and often development is where talent meets opportunity, and I think it's certainly harnessed in many respects this year with the circumstances. What have you made of this season, then? Because, you know, it's been an accelerated season for Alex Mann, but from your perspective, obviously, seeing Mackenzie, Cam, Alex, people like yourself have been getting a lot of praise for bringing these players through, and the pathway at Cardiff has had a lot of praise in particular for that succession plan. Do you feel that this season it's getting the recognition that happens every season, that this is just what you do, and there's nothing new that you've done for the last three or four years in bringing these players through, and it's just that the spotlight is on academy players now because of the constraints, and additionally on that, then, do you feel there's more pressure on bringing these players through because of the budget constraints? Yeah, a little bit. I think there's an element of you're just doing our job, and you're proud to do the job when involved in high performance, and you can't miss details, you can't miss the level of support that these players need to flourish. It's a day-in, day-out mission to drive things on in terms of, yeah, these guys can have the best they can be on and off the field, which is a lot of my remit to connect a lot of the stuff behind the scenes, and we are lucky we've got, not lucky because it's been part of a plan, but we've got staff who care a lot about what they do. You look at Dan Fish, Craig Edwards, coaching journey, it's for them as well. They've been working hand-in-glove with these players pre, during and post lockdown, and we've kept with a lot of those players for a long time, and the lockdown actually having elite rugby status was probably good for us in terms of really understanding where and how to drive Alex Mann, what cam needed to be nurtured in terms of shaping him as a person, his communication and how he was going to push on into senior rugby, and there are many differences around them all as well in terms of creating a competitive, challenging environment for them, where Mackenzie then could be challenged by that, but he has a safety net behind the scenes to be able to support some of his different needs, because obviously he sees the world and the game probably different to an Alex Mann, and that's probably, I think, I'm obviously protective and proud of what we do, but putting a lot of bespoke programmes in to help these guys flourish, and as I said, we spend a lot of time with this group, so it does become a huge element of job satisfaction, and again, I'm like a super fan then when Alex is racing away for that try, I am up on my feet in the pub like a lunatic, and I'm not ashamed of that, it's just that it does mean a lot to all of us within that group. Again, knowing the players and the journey and some of the tough times and family support and things they've had to go through, and in the bigger picture, in terms of the Cardiff positivity, and like I said, how that's come together when you see match days, the community feel to it, and you're getting messages from you there and everywhere, that's the passion and the pride come out, and also professionally, it just makes the job a whole lot easier in terms of the perception of it, compared to where we have been a lot of the time being challenged, and rightly so around some of what we may have lacked in the past, but from the professional point of view, it's pleasing. Yeah, it must be a great place to work at the moment, Cardiff, there seems to be positivity coming through, whether it be sell-out crowds, whether it be performances by individual players on international stage and for the region. Obviously, results haven't always been there for the region, but what have you made of it as well, with Cardiff RFC as well? Yeah, we're lucky to do what we do, and just going day in, day out, even when there's governance challenges, and I'm immersed in politics or finances, just sometimes can squeeze the life out of it. In terms of the day in, day out players and coaches, I've loved every minute of being around the Cardiff environment, and we're just good blokes who can play a bit, and good coaches who coach well. It does drive you on, but I think this year more than ever, positivity is infectious. Game days are a joy to be around. Yeah, I think you see it as well around, like I said, obviously a lot with parents and players around the 15- to 18-year-old group, and whereas there can be times that Welsh rugby's been a hard sell over the last few years, there's a lot more opportunities that are there, and it's clear and obvious, but backed up by a senior coach who's putting Mackenzie Martin on the bench, but not afraid to put him on in a one-score game or a game against Wrexham. They're huge statements as well, which I've been involved in the pro game and coaching it. A lot of coaches wouldn't have followed that route, regardless of circumstances. They'd have found something different. Yeah. One of the other positives is, obviously, new ownership model and new owners. Have you had an opportunity to say your piece on what you'd like to be in place for Cardiff in the future? There is new money, but it's not a bottomless pit of money, but what is the ideal scenario according to Chris Reece? Yeah, I've done a wish list, and again, the development mantra was something that the guys came in with, so I've sat a fair bit with Richard and gone through where we are, and I've been open, even though it's hugely positive, and we've come through as a tight group and had some good players come through it. We've done it from an under-resourced point of view. Not so much academy, even though we do need more S&C support, we need more medical provision. We probably need more specialists in the building if we're going to be truly high-performance and being able to challenge players, not just to play regional, but to be world-class. I think that's our next thing. But I have put a wish list together around an infrastructure that can help our pathway. We're running, and I've said this many times, but this year in particular, we're running more programmes than ever before with less resource than ever before. If you look at the 15s, 16s, 17s, 18s, girls' programme is huge for us. I've got one S&C coach who's running or driving a lot of the S&C for all that remit, and that's unfair and taking them away what he could and should be doing, what he's done well in the past is, what does Theo Cabango need to be able to play professional rugby? The small number of players needs more support whilst we're trying to widen and give more intellectual property and expertise around the pathway, yes, but we need people to invest in that. So that's gone there from that end, and there's some positivity potentially that can come from that, as well as keen on more sports psych and lifestyle support around what we do between 16 and 21, because, again, there's so many challenges and educational support that goes with that as well. So, yeah, I suppose that the headlines are scholarships and get players in the building and we could do this, we could do that, and make sure we keep people in. The reality is that would help in one or two instances, but long-term, we need to build a little bit more from within, engage with the north of the region more, a little bit, I think strategically, we can be accused of perhaps being an ivory tower than the Alps Park, and we've realised we've had to do a lot more and create a lot more around the districts. You'll see a lot on social media where we are trying to connect and build that affinity more, and certainly we're doing in that post-lockdown period for different reasons, but I think it's fair that we've got to be out and about, but not just visible, but actually impactful as well, so a lot of the thought process is going into where we can make a difference there, whilst then the final strand is the other idea aspect of my job is the universities and the Excel system where we're looking at people who can support in terms of talent ID and connecting different parts of the world there as well. To you, that may be almost like a personnel thing to give you that extra support, so it's not just one person running around all around the region, or the decent facility things you'd like, maybe like a training centre to the north end, as you mentioned, want to do a little bit more on the north end of the Pontypridd and Merthyr end, would you like a facility, almost like a hub there for... Yeah, we could do, I think, our main mantra on facilities will go with what the seniors need to invest more and obviously get better in terms of work their end, and we work a lot of our scheduling around the same facilities and provision, which is what we need, but around the senior programme. What we've probably been prudent in trying to do more in terms of facilities is link with Coleg y Cymoedd, we need to probably get them back to where they were three or four years ago, because they probably dropped a little bit, so that's probably one of our big things in terms of them having new gym space and looking at our senior squad, there's got 15 former Coleg y Cymoedd players in it, and even recent graduates like Alex Mann, Cam, Rhys, but we've just got to probably get ahead of the curve that we feel we can do more on there, and we do do quite a bit around Merthyr and Christ College Brecon, hopefully looking at a new 3G there, that's not us, that's just trying to work in partnership with potentially joint members of staff and different things, so we can replicate some junior academy programmes in different places. I just want to come, because you sort of mentioned it, it's sort of drifted into one of the next questions, so when the listeners ask what relationship the club has with the likes of Calvert and Cymoedd, Calvert's quite a big success, they went to South Africa on an international schools tournament, so I mean I'm getting the impression that it's quite a person, but can you just give a little bit more details how the schools and colleges work with the club at the moment? Yeah, when I took the job I was quite excited, I obviously have background in development and where I'd seen some growth in the game, and I looked at obviously Cardiff as a region, having the four day licences as opportunities for us to look at 900 players getting good provision when I did an order to them all in terms of S&C, quality rugby coaches in these institutions, so that was exciting to think, well you're not just going ad hoc in terms of talent ID, there's a support network which we can get benefit from, but actually I support them in terms of alignment around messaging and where they add huge value to our 16th recruitment, and then retention of players in terms of getting them around that college model, but then yeah, bespoke S&C programmes for a wider group of players than just a small academy contracted group, excited me, and again building relations with those four institutions, and you can see I was down Glantarp tonight just did a bit of speaking for them in an open evening, and looking at how, they've obviously made a look at the players who've come through across their programme in the last five, six years, it is making a huge difference, and we're bridging the gap effectively in terms of us working closely with them with S&C standards, where we see some of the academy needs and gaps between academy and senior level in the past perhaps from an S&C data point of view, we've probably had players who weren't doing that for college level to bridge the running load for example around academy level, and then we were playing catch up, and sometimes then you've got to make sure there's injury prevention in place, because sometimes they've overplayed in the past as well, and we still have challenges that the schools, colleges will want to win every week, we just want to see every individual player get opportunities, and then the ones we identify in really sharpen their tools around some of their technical ability, and what's the two or three things that are going to take them into perhaps the academy world then as well. I sadly left Glantab before it became an academy, otherwise who knows what could have been, I think we all know it, I was never going to make it. What of the outside of the Cardiff world, because there are these relationships you're trying to garner with Hartbury etc from my understanding, is that correct, and we've seen recently with Steph and Tom as you mentioned before the pod, these players coming back into the Cardiff sector, what is that relationship like with players that leave at 18 or 16 possibly to go to colleges in England, and trying to keep your talent interested in the Cardiff region as well. Firstly, there's probably a wider network really supporting what we have going on at doorstep, I generally look at education around the provision that our four day licences offer, and it can be compatible in so many different ways, also Christ College Brecon, we've done a lot of support there because there's that independent setting, but I've said it quite vocally, people want to look at different opportunities, a lot of families, children now want to take that independence a little bit earlier, and if you can't begrudge that you've got to try and work with it and understand it, and then, as I've said, for the most talented then, because there'll be a lot of numbers who say they're going to Bath Academy when actually they're just perhaps schooling there and playing for Bath under 18, so perhaps the wording needs probably a little bit more clarification, sometimes for parents' understanding, sometimes you're making talent ID judgments, you think well they might be better off if they get an opportunity at Gloucester because we've got a lot of different players around that position, a year above, a year beneath, where we know, okay, we're going to be pretty good in terms of our stock there, but then, yeah, you are looking at probably the better players, the obvious one, Emmanuel Figueroa Boso is Corpus Christi, huge athletic potential, and you just know, you just know he's going to be a pro player, you get to know him, you understand the educational needs, you know, the family, and, yeah, the need to go to Clifton was obvious around what they wanted, what he was craving, but, yeah, we did invest in Emmanuel, we invested financially, we tried to do it right, we did build that connection, there's obviously someone, I text quite a bit, and he's a wonderful young man and is very appreciative and sent me some wonderful texts over the last couple of months in terms of his journey, but you do your damndest around that because you then think you can play the long game around Cardiff Uni and maintain that contractual relationship, but, you know, obviously there's sometimes so many different moving parts that, you know, you sometimes get them, and obviously you think it's a false economy, you've put money into something you're not going to get something back from, but you've got to try and back up what you believe in terms of talent, I did, Louis Hennessy was another one for us in terms of going to Hartbury, we supported for a couple of years, but then, at the time then, the Bath University option appealed to him as well as a real good lucrative financial deal we couldn't get anywhere near, so you have spent money for nothing, but that's, in Louis's case, the long game would be, I can see him being in Cardiff would be playing in the future when he does come back to Wales and, you know, we've got good relations with his family, you know, he's enjoyed his time with Cardiff, another one who's very appreciative of the pathway and the support that's helped get him to where he is around 20s, and, as I say, he's going to have a glittering career in the professional game, so it's those sort of things that consume me because I'd never be the guy who's going to say, oh, you've gone there, well, two fingers to you, you know, they're never going to come back to this place, so I think it's more important you just understand people, the difference, and then, often it works out differently, and, you know, for Steph Emmanuel and Tom Bowen, linked to the positivity around Cardiff, the opportunities in Cardiff, Matt Shelley's vision for players in the pathway coming back and us being able to support from a real high-performance point of view, yeah, we're getting the benefit back in terms of where we are this year with that approach. And a bit about them for fans who probably haven't seen much rugby of them, what can we expect from Steph and from Tom? Well, Steph is a wonderful footballer, you know, lovely skill set, obviously former Welsh Schools footballer as well, but, you know, the ability to run past kick, again, from an attack and a backline point of view when you're looking at your coaching, you can, you know, just craft so many things around his game as a 12. He's playing for Wales 18s on Sunday against Scotland, and a couple of his moments were just those that will see him thrive at senior level. He's improving his defensive game, his understanding, his leadership, and it's a great show by Richie Pugh, he's captain in Wales 18s, he's captain Millfield, he's becoming a real well-rounded youngster, well-rounded young man, who, again, we're just really excited by picking back up around our senior Steph, and, yeah, hopefully, yeah, I've just heard a bit of Cardiff LFC rugby prior as well. And likewise with Tom, Tom, again, is a wonderful character. I've kept in close connection with Tom, regardless, like Gareth's a close friend, his dad, who coaches around our age group sites, so there was always that ongoing connection, even when he played Cardiff 18s, made a choice to play Bristol 18s, you know, we always felt that, you know, there was stardust around those two, and, you know, the way they talk and understand it is really beyond their years as well. Yeah, that sounds really promising, especially with one of the groups we've had and sometimes seen them as a little bit lack of leadership, so having players who seem willing to step into an environment and take charge actually sounds really promising to us. It's huge, the leadership thing for us, again, you look at what the leadership the senior group has lost in the last, you know, five years in terms of getting Jenkins to play and Matthew Rees and Outlast Turnbull and, you know, there's a host of others as well. That's big for us in terms of academy delivery as well, you know, we just do a lot of academy and leadership work behind the scenes, you know, Alex Mann is Wales 20s captain, there was, you know, lots of meetings around, well, why are you doing this? What would you do here? How do you deal with this? So that's another exciting part of the job that excites me as well in terms of developing people. It's exciting, isn't it? It must be a really exciting job and really rewarding as you mentioned to get all these players paying, you know, testing fee with both, so even if he's wearing the white jersey rather than the red as some would like to see him wearing this, it must be rewarding seeing them performing like some McKenzie as well on the highest level. Yeah, it is, yeah. I talked about jumping up when Alex scored obviously the try against England. I did likewise when Emmanuel ghosted through against Scotland even though the defence coach, Steve, is one of my good friends. It was just another moment and, again, just something to be proud of. I think we're all based around the Welsh game and that there's a human element to it in terms of what he's achieved but then just as proud the following week he's going back to Exeter to do an exam and you think, well, you're true to what you said you were going to be as well. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think all the stories come out when he first left to go up to was it Coventry University? I think he ended up in a medical school. It was either Coventry or Birmingham so that's why he signed for Watson originally because, you know, he's very focused on his studies. So, I know other people have tried to blame Cardiff and Cardiff Uni but I think it's just one of those things more than anything personally. Knowing how competitive Cardiff Med School is. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, no. Yeah, we're very comfortable in terms of, yeah, how we dealt with that situation and, yeah, we as Cardiff Rugby certainly couldn't have done any more. Because you did mention the injury of you having a developing the women's side of the game a little bit as well. I was just wondering your thoughts on with Celtic. I know we don't directly have anything to do with the qualia like meaning the Celtic challenge but with Cardiff. Cardiff Arms Park has played home for them. How do you see that as a development pathway with your under 18s and going onwards to them getting senior honours? Yeah, I'm an interested observer. I've been watching a couple of things and I know the coaches of some of those groups pretty well so it's good to see them getting that coach experience which is really valuable as well in terms of the sort of level of intellect and question and cohesion and challenges that those guys and girls have got in terms of those programmes. If I'm not probably more immersed day in and day out in how we've got to improve our girls under 18 experiences. We have someone working around that programme, part-time employed by Cardiff Rugby, part by Carvac. We've got links with Cymru but again we're so under resourced. We're trying to run that programme and I think we've got to replicate some of our 16s but I know to go there with that agenda until we get at least the provision of 6th form and under 18s done properly. It's an interesting one because for women's rugby it's been that gap historically where girls don't play and they bring it back in university and Cardiff Met, Lisa Newton obviously does a lot of the work at Cardiff Met and also works at Pontyclune and how successful that club has been. 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