bonus podcast ticats josh smith

The host of the Bill Kelly Podcast discusses the recent Canadian Football League (CFL) playoffs and the disappointing performance of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. The team had high hopes for the season but ended with a loss in the playoffs. The host interviews Josh Schmidt from Three Down Nation to discuss the future of the Tiger-Cats and the upcoming offseason. They specifically discuss the uncertain future of quarterback Bo Levi Mitchell, who did not meet expectations this season. The CFL offseason is known for player turnover, and the Tiger-Cats will have many decisions to make regarding their roster. The host and guest express their disappointment with the team's performance and the challenges they face moving forward. welcome to the bill kelly podcast critical discussions in critical times here's your host bill kelly and this is the bill kelly podcast critical discussions for critical times i'm your host bill kelly good to have you with us here today i'm going to veer off a little bit from from some of the politics and some of the world events that are going on we are going to catch up on those in in a couple of future podcasts but here in canada this is a special week coming up because it's a great cup week and you're going to say well it's football who cares in canada this is a week where even if you're a passive fan you get interested because it is the national championship it's like people don't really watch baseball but oh it's the world series okay i'll click it on and see what's going on well that's what's happening here and of course the playoffs started this past weekend and uh... the hamilton tiger cats uh... after a mediocre season they had a shot they went into montreal to play the alouettes it did not go well uh... and uh... the owls are going to go into toronto for the eastern final and we'll talk about the results of that but to give us a broader concept of what's going on and i want to talk a little bit about the future of this tiger cat franchise because there are more question marks than there are assurities at this point so pleased to welcome back to the broadcast our good friend josh schmidt joppa is from three down nation and covers the cfl and he specifically the hamilton tiger cats josh good to have you with us today thanks for joining us always a pleasure to talk to you bill the season ended way too soon for us uh... i don't know i don't know that there are any expectations that we're simply going to waltz into the great cup uh... but we had the same set of expectations i think that we had two years ago uh... the first time the great cup was in hamilton uh... it'd been the first time since nineteen well ninety six the game was here uh... but the first time the tiger cats have been in the great cup here at home since nineteen seventy two so we've been waiting a long time and and and we were kind of hoping and praying that that that great cup a couple years ago was going to work out it didn't uh... we can and i'm not going to go over all the calls you know that that's giving a point over time and that sort of stuff it didn't happen so we figured okay it's back in hamilton uh... we got a pretty good team a big off-season signing with bull devine mitchell uh... we were short a quarterback this is supposed to be the guy who's going to get us there and uh... to put it quite bluntly it didn't work out the way it should have and we wanted it to but we still made the playoffs and you know hope springs eternal right like a little casey at the back you know poem from years ago you know once you're in the the dance for the playoffs anything can happen uh... the problem we had last saturday in montreal is nothing happened uh... nothing that happened the way it was supposed to for us and it was a pretty blase exit i guess for a team that could have and should have done better it was an incredibly disappointing exit to the season it the day of the game i'd i'd go for my customary walk around where i live i was listening to music and i just i thought people in tight hats here and i started getting that feeling of all maybe today's the day will will get this one and then we go to trial and i think it happened in a hungry company yourself wrapped up to it and then you sit down to watch the game and it was boring i mean it was the offense did nothing to defense played well but the opposite absolutely nothing in that game they didn't score a touchdown which you're not going to win very many football games if you don't find the end zone relied on four field goals it was just an incredibly disappointing wave it's one thing for teams to lose going out on your shield so to speak you know what i mean like if they get you can tell oh man they just ran up against a better team or they went shot for shot and they just didn't get the ball last the twenty twenty one great cup here in hamilton is a perfect example of that they had their opportunity to send that game to overtime that was a great game play between two really good teams and the team that got the ball last made the biggest play in this one against montreal it was just you could tell from the start there was just something missing like they had the good first drive and then they fumble and then it was going into the game you can't turn the ball over you can't make mistakes montreal is a good team they did everything they couldn't do and that's why they packed their bags on monday and it's another wait until next year for tiger cap fans it was just a very disappointing way for the season for the season to end given the expectations this team had going into the year well and you wrote about it in your column the next day on three down nation uh... you know even in a playoff game where teams are quote-unquote evenly matched and i guess you could make that argument between hamilton and montreal this year uh... mistakes make the difference in other words turnovers bad plays missed coverages things like that uh... we made a ton of them montreal didn't and that was the difference in the game really wasn't it they took untimely penalties they turned the ball over they didn't capitalize when they could have just everything that could go wrong did go wrong and if this wasn't a case of the alouettes forced these issues now it's not the turnovers were montreal doing their thing and montreal's got a really good defense with a really good defensive coordinator so you kind of expect them to to get on the ball and do stuff like that but it was a lot of self-inflicted wounds and this team this entire season had been self-inflicted wounds it's the reason they finished eight and ten it's the reason they were third place in these they couldn't get out of their own way most of the time it's an unfortunate way for the season to end and uh... now we go into the offseason tons of questions around this team now who's going to be where who's going to be back who's not going to be it's i didn't expect this offseason to be as eventful as it's going to be but it's never boring covering this team there's always something some sort of drama some sort of who knows who like we're going to deal with quarterback questions i'm sure we're going to talk about it in a bit but we're going to deal with quarterback questions again for like the third or fourth straight year this team just never never stays out of the headlines so it's good for me it's good for my business but it's not necessarily great for Tiger Cat fans who just want sometimes a nice calm calm offseason getting ready for the upcoming year not going to be that way at all and part of this by the way is just the way the CFL has evolved over the last number of years uh... most times they offer one two year contracts to players you very rarely see long-term contracts for anybody in this league no matter how good they are no matter how bad they are uh... so as a result every offseason we got a list and earlier this week we got the list of potential free agents uh... for the league not just for the Tiger Cats and in most cases Josh it's half their roster they're all coming up now a lot of these guys are probably going to be re-signed no matter what team we're talking about Ottawa, Montreal, BC whatever the case might be but there are some key players here and i guess let's start right with the most contentious one uh... the guy who was the big signing in the offseason uh... Bo Levi Mitchell didn't play a whole lot I think he started he was dressed for six games this year uh... we play 18 in this league by the way for those who may have forgotten that uh... so that's a problem uh... he did not look like the superstar that a lot of people hoped that he would be this year even in the games in which he played so you get to the playoffs okay it's it's a one game win or lose in Montreal and the team announces that he's not going to start as a matter of fact he didn't get in until six minutes left in the game Matthew Schultz didn't play well didn't I don't want to hang it all on him but you know it's not as if we said well this guy's hot let's just keep going with him uh... he wasn't hot uh... but he got by but the message here is what I wanted to ask you about when the team announces the day before the playoff game that's going to win or lose their season for them and they say yeah that guy we spent in the offseason four tons of money on he's not going to be a starting quarterback what does that tell you and what does that tell Bo Levi Mitchell well Bo said after the game in comments I'm sure you saw in the little comments we wrote about on Three Down he doesn't expect to be back next year and given how his season went given how he spent the majority of a playoff game that you bring the reason Bo Levi Mitchell was a Hamilton Tiger Cat in 2023 was they went through the season last year with Dane Evans as the starter and felt that's the missing piece we don't have the answer at quarterback so they go and get a guy who had won two great cups who had been the great cup MVP twice who had won two most outstanding players awards they went and got for lack of a better term the CFL's version of Tom Brady all he did in Calgary was win they thought we're going to bring him into Hamilton he's going to bring that culture here just like Brady did when he left New England to go to Tampa Bay unfortunately he gets hurt that happens he's been injured quite a bit the last few years and in the nature of sports especially football the older you get the more susceptible you are to injuries but when he played he didn't play well and then to not play him in the playoff game the sole reason you brought this guy in was he's the guy that's going to take us over the hump last year and this is the thing about the Tiger Pats that was maybe the most frustrating all season this was a carbon copy of last year the 2022 season they finished 8-10 third place in the East losing the East semifinal to Montreal we fast forward a full calendar year and what happens third place in the East 8-10 record losing the semifinal to Montreal Matthew Schiltz got into that game he starts this game he wasn't great like he said but you gotta think and as I said Bo said what's the motivation to bring him back next year what's the I mean money is obviously always the motivation I'm talking about from like a like an egotistical I don't know if it was egotistical but you know that competitive spirit like Bo wants to play and Bo wanted to play in that game and he was asked bluntly like were you healthy enough to play and he said yes you can tell if you've seen the video to any of your listeners out there he's clearly frustrated with the fact that he didn't play in the game on Saturday and now this is what I alluded to earlier this is the quarterback questions we have with this team Bo's still under contract for another two years and a three-year extension very rare like you said guys don't sign long-term deals in the CFL he signed a three-year extension in January so he is under contract so unless Tigercats decide to cut him or trade him he will be back next year but what does that entail does that will that bring about any more sort of like it will anyone be satisfied if this team rolls back with the same quarterbacking group as they did this year because we saw that they didn't get the job done like can we rely on Bo B if I make sure to stay healthy for a full season I think the answer to that question is definitively no because he hasn't since 2018 he's missed games and now he comes into a situation he thought he was going to be the guy he in the situation that they brought him in for to get this team over the hump come playoff time where he has been spectacular throughout his career he staples the bench until like you said six minutes left in the game. It's a it's a confusing I didn't understand the decision when they made it I going into the game coach Armando Steinhauer said like we're going to roll with two quarterbacks and that my ears perked up there and I said, okay, you know what you both plays they have some because Schiltz is a Matthew Schiltz a really good runner. He can throw but he can also run. He's got that athleticism that Bo kind of lacked never never really had it. He's more of a pocket passer, which is fine, but I thought okay, you're going to have some packages for Matthew Schiltz. He'll come in. You don't know if he's going to throw you don't know if he's going to run other teams have done that. Tycats have done that Jeremiah Mazzoli, Dane Evans, Dane Evans, Matthew Schiltz. We've seen it before it's worked. Okay, I don't I'm not a huge fan of the 2QB system. I'm curious what your thoughts are and I don't tend to like it all that much. I like to roll with one guy, but then when they made the decision to start Schiltz, I was like, I don't get this at all. I don't get like you're not going to bring in both for like sub packages or anything like that and then for him not to get into the game till the very end and for him to say that was the plan the entire time. Just another another question mark that we have and a big one going like you're I'm sure we're going to talk about the free agent players and all those guys too, but this is the biggest one hanging up because the quarterbacks most sports position on the team for this to be a question mark now going into the offseason again, I just don't know where this team's going to turn. Like if it's not Bo and I've been trying to ever since that happened. I've been kind of bouncing around. Okay, what's his options? What are the Ticats options? And it feels to me like a reconciliation is really the only thing because I don't think there's a ton of landing spots for him and I don't think the Ticats have very many options outside of him. Well, here's the problem though and I want to get into some of the rationale behind the decision and as to why he didn't start that playoff game. I don't think anybody in senior management went down there and say I don't start him. I know Scott Mitchell very well. That's that's not what they do. Okay, so this was the coaching decision and you got to ask yourself and as the head coach, you know coach Joe's job is to say who have I got the best chance with and I don't buy that crap with you. Well, you know Schultz is a better mobile quarterback. Anthony Calvillo couldn't run if his life depended on him. He won a couple of great cups with the Alouettes and set CFL playoff records that still stand. Danny McManus was a statue. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, he didn't even run off the field for God's sake. You know, he just walked. You know, that was not Danny's style, but you know, he was the last time we won a great cup. It was Danny Mack that was playing quarterback. You designed your offense around the guy you would think is going to win for you. I think and this is what really concerns me at this stage when they made the decision going to two quarterbacks essentially means we're not starting this guy even though he makes the most money. They were basically saying Bill, we don't have faith in you to get the job done today. And I'm talking about, you know, hurting his ego. You know, you're making a lot of money. You're in a football team. I don't care about your ego. But when the management says you're not the guy for us today, that's not just a message for the day. That's a message to say we've lost faith in you. We don't think you're going to make this anymore. And how does a guy like that bounce back? Now we heard his postgame comments, you know, that he couldn't understand that. One of the ones that jumped out for me says, you know, you get into a playoff game and the highest paid guy in the roster is not starting. I don't care about that. He should be the highest performing guy on the roster that starts. And that was not Bo. So I want to put that on the check sheet right now. But neither was it Matt Schiltz either. I mean, these guys were in a problem here. And you don't just go with the best to try to win the game in a situation like that. And they didn't do it. And I just have to wonder how he can go back into training camp. And I know under most, you know, you and I talked about this offline. The worst time for an athlete to talk after a game is right after the game because they're too emotional. They're too wrapped up in this. And oftentimes they say things that, you know, their filter is not on. And they're, oh, shit, I wish I hadn't said that. And I'm sure he feels that way after the fact. But how do they go forward and say he's still our guy? And what bothered me about Coach O's comments, even the day after, you know, the wrap-up press conference for the football team, he still didn't place any faith in Bo Levi. He just said, yeah, he's still under contract. He's still a Hamilton Tiger cat. Well, who gives a crap about whether he's still a quarterback or not? Is he your guy? And I don't know that they can answer that right now. Why would you, if you're the team and you've decided going into your biggest game of the year, the guy that you're paying half a million dollars to is not good enough to win you that football game, why would you then think a full-off season of nothing, not seeing him play because they don't play games, why would you bring him back at that salary thinking he's going to retain? Like, you've seen him now for a full year, regardless of what you saw, because he came back late in the season. I thought played decently well against BC and Saskatchewan in those games. You played all right against Montreal in the finale as well. Like, he was like, he wasn't great, but it was like, okay, he's still capable. I think would be the word that I would use. And then in the biggest game of the year, you say, no, the guy that we, like you said, all the hoopla, all the everything, bringing him in and we're not going to play you. How does he come back from that? And I agree, it's not an ego thing. It's just the team showed they don't have faith in him. So if the team doesn't have faith in him, how are they going to then sell, not just to themselves, but to the fan base at large, which is an important part of this because ticket sales matter in this league. How do you sell? We didn't believe in him in November, but you got to believe in him in June. And we're going to believe in him this year. It's just, it's a, it's a very stinky situation, quite frankly. And I just don't know how either side comes back from it. The only thing I can think of is sometimes time heals wounds. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, but this is a heal the football team. It may heal the wounds. Yeah, but you know, when Coach O says we're going to go with two quarterbacks, all right, and they're playing lousy football. I mean, they're trailing Montreal's going up and down the field, kind of at will sometimes. Although I think, as you said, the defense, I thought played relatively well. They're just on the field too long. And it kind of wore them down in the fourth quarter. But you put that guy in with six minutes left in the game, or eight minutes, or whatever it was. I mean, come on. That's like you're down 10-0 and say, OK, Bo, go win it for us. It was almost a token gesture to put him into the game at that stage. And that's- It was almost disrespectful. It was almost like it was meant as like disrespect. Like, we said we'd play both of you guys. This is the plan. All right, I guess go in there and do what. By the time he gets in the game, they're down two scores. And it's two majors. I think they were down at the time. I think he gets in the game. I think it was 24-12. And it's like, he's coming in cold. The team's been ice cold all day. You're going to start to- You tell me you're going to start two quarterbacks. And if you were online at all during that game, you saw the chatter. It was like, this team wasn't doing anything offensively. And everyone's like, OK, what about at halftime? Are they making the switch? They said they're going to play both. Now's the time to- Because if Bo gets in there in half, again, maybe the game ends the same way. I don't know. But at least then it would have looked like, OK, we had this plan. It didn't work. We're going to give the other guy a chance. This just felt like, like you said, a token gesture of just like, we said you'd play. All right, go in there. Muck around for five minutes. And then we'll end this game. And we'll go into the offseason. It just felt wrong. And here's the thing. I mean, going into the offseason right now. And I want to, for a second, go back to the last offseason, OK? And that was quarterback carousel in the CFL. A lot of quarterbacks changed teams. Bo came to Hamilton. You know, the Argos were looking for a quarterback. They dumped- Well, I guess he dumped himself, really. And they ended up with Chad Kelly. That's worked out pretty well for them. But Saskatchewan dumped their quarterback. Vancouver had a real quandary as to where they were going to go with their quarterback. And on and on it goes. And you look at- Well, Montreal for that matter, too. But, you know, Fajardo finally ending up with the LOS. So they were set. That's not going to happen this offseason. There's not a whole lot of quality quarterbacks going to be available this offseason. So where do you go? Which begs the question, if not Bo, then where are you going to go? Is Matthew Schiltz your guy? I don't think so. No. He can't- And I went into that game. And I do a podcast with my friend Mike, as your listeners know. And we actually said that on the show going into the East Final. We said, this is a chance for Matthew Schiltz to make a lot of money. He brought up Matthew Schiltz' start, and I literally said, cha-ching. Because if he plays well, he could have been the starter for this team or another team going forward. He played horribly. He can't be the guy. And like you said, last year was QB carousel time. This year, I've looked at the guys that, even though they're under contract, you could say might be available. Jeremiah Mazzoli is one of them coming off a couple injured years in Ottawa. Trevor Harris is another one coming off an injured year in Saskatchewan. But my thing with that is, even if you go to get one of those guys, aren't you just trading the problem you had, which is an older, injury-prone quarterback, for another older injury? Like, that doesn't fix anything. I don't think they can go in with Taylor Powell. As well as I think Taylor Powell played, he's not ready to be a full-time starter. He's not ready for prime time. Not at all. Not at all. And I know there's a lot of people out there, and I've seen it on social media, asking me this question. Like, you saw what the Lions did two years ago with Nathan Rourke. Young quarterback, didn't get paid a lot of money. They could build a team around him. You saw what the Argos did this year with Chad Kelly. Younger quarterback, didn't pay him a lot of money until he got his extension this year. And then you can build a team around him. I don't think Taylor Powell, Chad Kelly, or Nathan Rourke, like, those guys are special talents. They're also older players. Taylor Powell was a literal rookie. Nathan Rourke had had a little bit of NFL experience. Chad Kelly's almost 30, for crying out loud. Like, he's young in CFL standards, but in football standards, he's been around the block. He played, he was in the NFL for a year before he came up here. Do you go with a young guy? I don't think you can. I don't, because now you're, then you'd have to sell the fan base on, okay, we're going to build for a year. Like, it's been, you know, a quarter century since we've won a championship, but we're going to then not, I just don't know how you, this is why I think that the reconciliation between the two is the only way forward is because I just don't know what the other option is. Because all the other options to me are either the same problem, just with a different name, or it's you're going with someone untested. And as much as, this team did that. In 2013, they had Henry Burris. They let him go. They brought in Zach Kolaris. There's not another Zach Kolaris waiting out there. You know what I mean? Like, we had seen a lot of him in Toronto in 2012 and 2013 when he was there to be like, to feel comfortable. He can be a starting quarterback. But that was another one of those carousel years. I mean, Kolaris was contractors up. Clearly, Kent Austin and the management here didn't have a whole lot of faith in Hank there, Burris, and so they made that change. And it worked out until, sadly, he got injured. But that was a guy that had a proven track record. So in other words, there's a proven veteran that's had success in this league, and he's available. Let's go get him. And they did, and that was a smart move. They don't have those options anymore. Right now, it's a shot in the dark. It's like throwing darts in a black room and saying, oh, I wonder if I even hit the board, let alone the bullseye. So I don't know how they're going to do that. Which leads us to my next question. What about the coach? You've seen the things on social media. I saw some of the reaction to your columns from some of the fans. Time for O to go. No faith in him, and a lot of this. And of course, when you lose like they did this past weekend, it brings up all the other bad blood, you know, about the coaching decisions, giving up points in the overtime of the Grey Cup two years ago, which might have cost them, probably did cost them, and some other questionable calls along the way. And say, okay, that's just too much. There's a body of mistakes here. Do you fire the coach? And I'll go right on record as saying, I don't think so. I don't think you do. What are your thoughts on that? I'm in the same boat. I don't think he's a bad coach. No. I think he's a very, I mean, this team, again, we have to, I know the ultimate judge of success is championship ranks. I understand that. But this team's been to the playoffs every year under his stewardship. They had the 15-3 season. And I know the past is the past. It doesn't matter. But this team is, whether they win a championship or not, are in the, they have an opportunity. They make the postseason. Do you think the Edmonton Elks or the Ottawa Red Blacks wouldn't kill to have what the Ticats have had the last four years? Those two teams have been a complete disarray. Hamilton's at least had a chance. Now, do they need to be better? Absolutely. Do I think Coach Orlando Steinhauer can do that? I do. We've seen him coach really well. I don't buy the he-needs-to-go thing. They made the change in offensive coordinator. That worked a little bit. Did not work against Montreal, obviously. The offense was putrid. But I think that maybe there should be coaching staff changes. Maybe they take some stuff up. Because back in, I think it was 2021, Steinhauer was flirting with becoming the defensive coordinator at the University of Washington. He decides to stay. They give him a bump. They make him the president of football operations. I do wonder. And that happened. And then all of a sudden you see the team start to shrivel a little bit. I think he's a phenomenal head coach. I really, really do. I just wonder if maybe he's got too much on his plate trying to juggle the front office. Bingo. Bingo. Exactly it. Don't do that. I mean, I know Belichick's done it in New England, and it's not working out that well for him either these days. But let him coach. Because you have written about this in the past, and I've seen this by talking to former players, because nobody wants to talk about their coaching staff while they're on the team. Players that have a coach and general manager usually are pissed off at this person individually, because that's the same guy they have to negotiate contracts with. And if you have a general manager and a coach, the coach could just say, look, yeah, I know they were really being assholes about this, but I'm going to make this work for you, and let's go. When it's the same guy, it causes problems. And I think there's some friction. It's not overt, but I think it's there. And I don't know Orlando that well. We've talked a number of times over the years, but we're not close in any way, shape, or form. I don't know if he's comfortable with that. Because you know exactly what happens. It's the same thing in show business as it is in football. If you want to give somebody a bump in salary, you have to give them another job so you can justify it. You can't go to management and say, all right, Josh has been a pretty good guy. Let's double his salary. We're going to say Josh is now in charge of Tigercat football and cleaning out his desk. In other words, they have to give them some of the quote, unquote responsibilities. So they brought O back, and they said, okay, you're in charge of football operations. I don't think he wants to be. Now, I don't know that. He's never told me that. But I just get the sense he wants to just coach, because I can do that, and I'm pretty good at it. Let somebody else do all this other stuff. And I hope management gets that message. Well, and here's the thing. And I'm not reporting this or anything, but Kyle Walters is the general manager of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. He's out of contract at the end of this season. And he is a former Hamilton Tigercat player. He played on the championship team with Orlando Steinhauer. If I'm the Thai Cats, I am going – the second his contract is up, I am calling Kyle Walters, and I am saying, we have a blank check. Look what he did in Winnipeg with the Bombers. That team, if you go back to when Kyle Walters took over, they were devoid of Canadian talent. They were devoid of talent, period. They were horrendous. And they built that up over a number of years, and look where they are now. They're on the verge of going to their fourth consecutive great cup. Exactly. And you look at the protocol here, because when they made that move and hired Kyle Walters there, and Danny Mac's there, too, in a secondary position. But they basically hired Mike O'Shea as coach and said, oh, just coach the football team. We'll look after everything else. You just coach them and have that work out pretty well. Exactly. And the thing is, too, it's like now it starts to seem like – because Kyle Walters has done such a good job. Are they going to now – is Winnipeg going to make this mistake that Hamilton made? And they're going – Kyle Walters is going to leave. He's going to go somewhere else. He's going to build someone else up, which I think he'd be great. I at least think he's a wonderful general manager. Are they going to hand, then, the front office to O'Shea? And then we're going to see the Bombers take a little bit of a dip. You know what I mean? Like this dual general – like you mentioned Belichick. Bill Parcells did it as well. I mean, it's easy for Bill Belichick. Different time. You're right. Different time. And Bill Belichick, it's very easy for him to negotiate with players because he'll just walk in there and drop six Super Bowl rings on the desk and go, you have to trust what I'm going to do because I've had all this success. Now, like you said, not very successful now. Steinhower's had success. He hasn't had that level of success. So you're right. Dealing with players on the field during practice and then having to negotiate a contract with them and being the guy that's like, we're not nickel and diming you, but the team is always going to try to get the best value. They're going to try to get you at as low a number as you can. The player wants as high a number as he can. Usually, you meet somewhere in the middle. But there can be some contention. We've seen it in other sports. Arbitration cases where players go in – NHL and MLB players go into these arbitration cases and hear their teams just say all the reasons why they stink. And it's like, but I batted 375 and I had 48 home runs and 106 RBI and we won 97 games and made it to the World Series. And it's like, no, but you did this. You didn't do this. And that's really difficult for the coach that's in the locker room going, everyone give it their all. And then afterwards, it's like, well, I've got to negotiate a contract with whomever the player is. It doesn't matter. And then tell them – I'm in the locker room telling them, yeah, you guys are doing great. Yeah, stick together, blah, blah, blah. And then in this other avenue, I'm telling them, no, this is where we've got to get better. This is where you've got to get better. This is why we can't pay you what you want. That will breed contention, just human nature. I don't blame the player. I don't blame Steinhauer or anybody in that situation. That would just breed contention, just basically being people who they are. Well, here's what's going to happen. I mean, and once again, as you just mentioned, we're into another 2023 offseason. Some key decisions need to be made. And we're at the point in this league right now, especially in the East, where the offseason is probably more dramatic than the regular season when it comes to what's going to be happening. Josh, we're going to leave it here for now. Always a pleasure to have you on the program. Thanks so much for this today. Really appreciate it. Anytime. You know what, Bill? It's going to be a very eventful offseason here in Hamilton. So I await the call to come back on. We'll be chatting probably many, many times over the next few months. Well, you're on quick dial, so we'll do that again real soon. Josh Smith, 43 Dell Nation. And that's it for this edition of the Bill Kelly Podcast. Thanks for listening, and thanks for subscribing at the same time. 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