Challenging the Glass Ceiling Ep. 4: Jordan interviews Maggie

The transcription is about an interview with Maggie Lyer, a senior at George Mason University, discussing her experiences as a queer woman and how they have shaped her leadership journey. They also discuss the social justice model for leadership, personal values, and the importance of empathy and kindness in promoting social change. They talk about how identities can shape values and leadership styles, and the role of values in making ethical decisions. They also touch on the influence of growing up in the Mormon church on Maggie's identity and leadership. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Challenging the Glass Ceiling, Persistent Barriers to Women's Leadership. I'm your host, Jordan Rizzo, and today I'm going to be interviewing Maggie Lyer, a senior at George Mason University, graduating soon, and studying social justice and human rights and also government. Today, we're going to be discussing her experiences as a queer woman and how they have shaped her leadership journey. Thank you so much for joining me, Maggie, and really looking forward to getting to discuss leadership with you today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. So, Maggie, I really want to start with discussing something called the social justice model for leadership. Have you ever heard of this before? I can't say that I have. I've taken, like, one leadership course, but I'm not super familiar with this specific model. Yeah, no problem. Okay, so essentially what it is, I'll give you a brief description for those who haven't heard either. Essentially, it's going to be made up of three different parts. Think of, like, kind of a Venn diagram, and all of those parts work together to create social change. So, that's going to be something like individual values, group values, and societal values. And the theory basically says that without all of these parts working together, there cannot be real societal change. You know, with that in mind, I'd love to hear what are some of your personal values and how do they shape the way that you think about social justice? Yeah, I guess, like, my – and I attribute a lot of, like, the values that I have to my mom, which I'm sure that we'll get into that later. But I guess, like, I think about someone who is honest and transparent. Kindness is a big thing for me, and it's something that I try to act with in my day-to-day and that I look for in others and who I include in my inner circle. And I think kindness and empathy in particular are really central to the way that I think about social justice. Yeah. I think from someone, like, yes, I am queer, but other than that, I have, like, I have a lot of privilege. I also, as a queer woman, am often not assumed to be queer. Yeah, I think that's straight passing. Straight passing. Yeah. And that comes with a lot of privilege, like, I get to choose, like, in maybe a context or an environment that it's not safe for me to disclose my sexuality. I get to choose that, and I can, and there's a lot of privilege that comes with that. And so I think empathy is really key to being open to trying to understand and being other people's experiences and understand that your experience is not everyone's experience. And it's being reflective of that. I think those are so key to, like, promoting positive social change. You have to acknowledge how you're part of the problem before you can work towards a solution. I love that. Honestly. You know, when we did this in class, we basically did this activity where we had to kind of narrow down our two most core values, and it was really challenging because, you know, there are so many things that we hold important to our lives. And I ultimately ended up, my two most core values were peace and justice. When I thought about that, there was definitely, like, an idea of, you know, external peace and justice, but also kind of that internal sense of peace and protecting peace. And that's really important to the way I think about social justice is allowing others to protect their own peace as well. So we've known each other for about three and a half years now. And in that time, I've really grown, or you've really grown in your identity as a queer woman. But also as a leader. And I'd love to hear, you know, would you say that your ideas have, or your identities have shaped your values and who you are as a leader? And if so, how? Yeah. I think, and this is jumping ahead a little bit, I'll go more in depth, but, like, just being a woman and, like, battling with my queerness in the way I denied like that for a really long time. I was really scared of, like, accepting the fact that, like, I don't dislike boys. And was not exactly in, had conflicting messaging about that. But I think the primary identity that, like, of mine that really shaped my values and honestly shaped me to, like, pursue what I'm pursuing now, which is more focused on social justice and advocacy stuff. And that's the hope that I hope for my future career as well. But, like, being a woman, I think, has been, it's key in my worldview and the way I'm perceived and, like, cis and very feminine presenting, I'm trying to think of, like, how, and so I think also as women, we are constantly taught to be empathetic and we need to always think of others, which is not, like, inherently a bad thing. Yeah. And so, like, having empathy and kindness and putting others first, which I saw a lot with my mom, like, she was always doing something for another person, baking cookies, like, bringing people who were sick, like, soup and, like, cooking dinner for other people. Like, she just was always doing things for other people and taking very, very little time to take care of herself. And so, like, I think that's a big reason why kindness and empathy are so core to my values. Yeah. You definitely grew up in, like, a really strong female household. You have, you know, a lot of sisters and siblings and so I could definitely understand how those kind of, like, leadership, your models were obviously a lot of women and I think that's really amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's a, and I really admire my sister and my mom especially and those have been, like, core people in my life that have kind of, like, really influenced the way that I think about things and the way that I go about things. I'm not the most assertive person and so I think my kind of leadership style when I am in that position is just to, like, trust people to do what they need to do and offer guidance as they need it. I'm really covering because I, I want to, I think it can come off as, like, maybe a little, like, when you're too hands-on, it could, it feels a little condescending, like, undermining your ability so, like, I, I think just having, like, trust and faith in people is really important and, like, I'm going to have integrity, so I'm trusting you to have integrity. Definitely. And I don't know how tied that is to my identity, but I guess my, my experience, um, has been in me. I think that, like, definitely, like, being a woman probably, it sounds like, has shaped a lot of your experience as well and, you know, when I think about my clearness and my leadership, I think about, like, disrupting the norm, like, even just being a queer person, like, I feel like I'm constantly, like, disrupting what people's ideas of me are and so I think that comes with leadership as well and I see that in you as well where, you know, people think that maybe women might lead one way or men might lead another and I think something really beautiful about, like, clearness in general is just that you kind of get to be whoever you are without the labels and without the boxes surrounding you. I think that you really take that into leadership from what I've seen. So, moving on to the next question, do you think that following your values can help people to make ethical decisions when times get hard? Absolutely. I think, which, I mean, this is kind of, I remember when we took a class together last spring and we talked a lot and it was research methods for social change and I remember a lot of conversations around being very clearly establishing your morals and your ethics and you stick to that, especially involving research that is, you are researching on or around a vulnerable population or marginalized groups. So, I think just knowing what your core values are helps you stick to that line and you know where the line is and, you know, part of that, like, my core values I've said a few times are, like, kindness and empathy and I think that is helpful, like, being able to consider other people's perspectives because if you are in a leadership position, ultimately, your decisions are going to impact others and it helps you have that mindfulness when you're making a decision, right, and there are different degrees of responsibility that you have and different stakes depending on the position and I think that becomes especially important when times do get hard and, like, there are maybe a lot of different messages you're getting and a lot of disinformation and so I think it's just, like, a guiding, having those guiding principles and values are really, really important. Definitely agree with that. You know, we talk about in class something called our true north, which is essentially, you know, when these times do get hard, having those values and, you know, really holding them close will keep you on that ethical path and bring you to your true north because if you essentially, you know, leave your values, you know, it's kind of like you can talk the talk but you really need to walk the walk and if you say that your values are a certain way but you're not living by those, then ultimately you're going to end up making, you know, unethical decisions. So I really love that perspective. And another thing that we talked about in our class is something called the crucible of leadership and these are essentially hardships that we go through or challenging experiences that we have that kind of shape the person we become but also especially the leader that we become. And with this in mind, I'd love to hear about how growing up in the Mormon church kind of shaped who you are today. Yeah, I, so Mormonism is very conservative and it, but there are, like, kind of varying degrees. So the way that I grew up, it's what, it's like kind of a slang term of Jack Mormon. So a little bit more, we went to church every Sunday, high school. I went to seminary every day at, like, 6 a.m., every day before school. So I was at church for most of my high school up until COVID hit halfway through my junior year, six days a week. It's not seven days a week. It was a huge part of my life. But, and the first time I remember, like, maybe, like, being like, I don't think I just, like, boys, which is key in Mormon doctrine, like, marriage is between a man and a woman. It's, it's honestly really similar to, like, Southern Baptist beliefs and more conservative Christian beliefs. Interesting. And, like, just to give people, like, a point of reference, because I think people maybe know a little bit more about Southern Baptists than they do about Mormon. But Mormonism is very similar. Interesting. Ideology-wise, with, like, of course, like, two very key differences. Yeah. But that was, like, hammered into me, and not even from my parents, really, just from being in church and from church leaders who were, like, very integral people in my life. And that was just something that we always heard. And oftentimes, being queer or struggling with homosexuality, as they would say, was compared with, like, a struggle like addiction. Wow. And that, yep. And that you, it was a, it was a trial that God gave you. And you, you know, everybody gets their trials just like someone struggling with addiction, and that's what it was compared to. That's very interesting. And, which is really awful. And so, I had a lot of fear that people would somehow think I was queer. Didn't always have the language for it, either. But, so, middle school is when I started being, like, so, and I was, like, you know what, but I know I like boys, so, like, it's fine. Like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And so, I stayed closeted up until college. And that's when I met friends that were also exploring their identities. Some had already been, like, yeah, no, I know I'm bisexual, or I know I'm gay. And I didn't really, like, I knew people in high school that were queer, because I grew up in California, in an area that's more liberal. And so, and, like, had some friends, or, like, they were more acquaintances that were non-binary or trans in high school. But, like, again, not super exposed to it. But, yeah, I mean, it. It sounds like, you know, hearing these messages from people who are supposed to be considered the highest of leaders in your community and spaces would be extremely challenging, and really kind of shape your viewpoint of yourself and also what leaders are supposed to look like. You know, do you think that these experiences really helped you to grow your passion for social justice? Oh, 100%. I, especially going into college, like, I felt very, a little late to it. But also, not even up until now have, like, really explored who I am as part of the queer community. And, like, my labels have changed. But I, and I had always felt, I, like, really can attribute a lot of this to my mom. So even though my mom had us going to church every day, she would push back against some of these beliefs. And she was always, like, there. At one point, the church had banned children of same-sex couples from getting baptized. And that was a huge, that was a big self-breaker for my mom, because my mom also eventually left. And I always remember that, like, their stance on gay marriage and queer rights just never sat right with me. And that was, like, that was something inherent that I knew that wasn't really being talked about. But, like, this just feels wrong. Like, why does it matter? Why does it matter? I don't, why does it have to be between a man and a woman? And so I remember always, like, being encouraged by my mom to, like, think critically, even though. And so, like, that's kind of the conflicting messaging that I had. And then I was able to kind of transition out of the Mormon church. And at that time, there was a lot of activism going on on social media, seeing it. And I just knew that I wanted to be a part of that positive change. And that I knew that there were things that were inherent and critical to Mormon belief that I just could not get behind. And so seeing how my younger sibling is not conforming to the binary. Yeah. So queer, and as I've seen them come into their own, and it has even more, like, I, like, that's, that's my baby. Like, I need, I can't be a part of this problem. Right. For myself and for my family and for my friends. And so, I mean, yeah, like. You know, ever since I've known you, you've been such an, like, advocate for, you know, speaking out and using critical thinking, especially when it comes to thinking about, you know, religion and faith. And never, I love something that I love about, you know, you is that you never would criticize someone for their faith, but you definitely encourage them to think about how it fits into their life. And, you know, really think quickly about the decisions that they make. And I think that's a huge part of leadership as well, is encouraging one another to use that critical thinking lens and speak up for themselves if they see something that is wrong. And that's something I love about you. And, you know, speaking about your sibling, Parker, they are also an incredible, you know, leader, in my opinion. We actually haven't had the opportunity yet to meet in person, but we will soon. And something that I'm really excited about with that is, you know, they are obviously in Utah and being, yeah, being a part of trans youth there is an incredibly challenging thing. But the fact that they are really just showing up for their community, being an incredible, you know, representation is so important. And that kind of leads me to talking a little bit later is, you know, one of the things we talked about in our class is that meeting in the book, Meeting Ethical Challenges of Leadership, Johnson discusses having mentors to look up to can help create moral character and strengthen your values. And I would love to hear, you know, about how if you've never seen queer representation of leadership, and if not, how might that have helped shape your leadership journey today? I, you know, I really don't know that there was, like, a lot of queer leaders that I had that I looked up to. Again, like, I was probably more devout Mormon than my mom was in high school, which is a little crazy because my mom did, like, drink coffee and alcohol, which is, like, a big no-no. Yeah, and had a couple of tattoos, God forbid. But I guess it wasn't until, like, college that I really had people, people in pop culture. Yeah, I think a little bit in high school where I was like, why do I like Billie Eilish so much? Like, oh, and but no one directly in my life. Yeah, until college. And I can think of, like, a few professors that I really, really admire. One of them, Dr. Corwin, they're just, like, an incredible educator. But and then Dr. Manuel Scott uses. And I was going to say, you know, Dr. David Howard Corwin, who we both took a couple of classes with. They are just an incredible professor. And I know that we both really look up to them. And they're the first professor that I had that is non-binary, used they, them pronouns. And that was really important for me. Interesting gender representation amongst my professors, because I think most of the professors I had had, you know, were either cisgender or in some way or another did see themselves as a man or woman. And so having just the representation to see that, you know, I want to be a professor so that you can be a professor and identify as just your true self and express your true self was really important for me. So being about, you know, being a part of the queer community, would you say that this has changed your experience in leadership? Or if not, that's OK, too. I think it has, like, because it's always something that you're, I'm still figuring out. And I think it really influences the areas that I feel drawn to. I mean, I think it propels me into leaning more and more into, like, this activism space, especially lately, I'm not going to lie, because I just, I just can't sit here and do nothing and knowing that there are people of my community, especially with these attacks, these very clear, direct attacks on trans folk and, like, loving someone who is trans and, you know, even not, even if you don't know someone who's trans, like, I think it just, like, it, like, lights a fire. And, like, I can't just sit here and do nothing. And that's been a frustrating thing lately, has, I have really amazing family members, like, that are white cis women, and I love them. They're very supportive. But they, with, like, everything that's been going on politically lately, have kind of buried their head in the sand, because they're just like, I just can't mentally handle it. Which, like, I can understand that. I just think about all the people who can't just bury their head in the sand. Like, that's a very important thing to do. Yeah, it definitely is a big privilege. Directly, this legislation that's coming out that's, like, attacking trans youth and limiting, banning, like, access to gender-affirming care is directly impacting people's lives. So even though that, like, I'm cisgender, like, I present very feminine in a way that aligns with traditional gender norms, and that's a privilege. But, like, so, like, how can I say that I, like, stand by these communities, like, my community, and then just, like, bury my head in the sand? So, and that's been something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. But, like, relating that back to leadership, that's an important part, is, like, having this awareness and this mindfulness and being, like, in it with, like, standing by your words and standing by the communities you say you are an ally to, right? Or that you are a part of. Absolutely. And I think that's, like, one of the biggest ways that, like, my queer identity has, like, kind of shaped and has continued to, like, push me towards, like, these specific career goals that I have. Yeah. I love hearing about that. And, you know, something that I think is important to point out is also that while, you know, for both of us, I would say our queer identities have, you know, helped to shape the leaders that we are, they also don't define us. You know, you do incredible work also advocating for environmental climate awareness and environmental change, protecting the planet. And I just love to see that. And I think that's something that people often don't think about is the fact that while our queerness helps to shape who we are and influence our interests, it also doesn't define us. And we have more than one interest. And your activism reaches so many different areas as well. So I guess I, you know, thinking about this, and you did mention a little bit about politics, why would you say it's important to have queer leaders in our society and particularly to have them be visible? I, people need to see that they can see themselves in these spaces and in these positions. I think about, like, the younger version of me that was, like, genuinely scared and, like, thought that, like, especially pulling that super conservative religious piece, these conservative religious beliefs that I had that I hadn't quite settled with, but, like, never, like, I just think if I had had someone close in my life or someone to look for, look towards who was queer, maybe I would have felt more comfortable exploring that sooner. And it, like, the internal turmoil of, like, feeling like I am, like, wronged, like, this part of my, that is so core to my existence and, like, is just not something that I can explore. Like, it was just something I was, like, nope, can't do it. Like, can't explore that part of myself. And so, like, just really, like, your, like, mental, the mental wellness of people. And I think having that diversity of perspectives, especially in government, like, in all spaces, right? Like, corporate spaces and our educators, like, it's so important to have diverse and not just, like, diverse sexuality, diverse gender identities, diverse ethnic and racial backgrounds, like, all really important. And that just, like, makes us better as a society if we're talking about representatives and, like, those are the people that are pushing through policy and making policies to have policies that, like, considers how it's going to impact more than, like, these very narrowly defined populations. Agreed. And, you know, it reminds me of, you know, the conversations we've had about, you know, birth control and women. It's, like, all men, like, all male, you know, politicians making these legislations about women's bodies. And it made me think about, well, we have, you know, all of these cisgender people making legislation about trans people and their bodies and what health care they deem acceptable for them. It really just doesn't make any sense. And to have, you know, trans people be in our government, be visible, would be so critical and important in really getting their voice heard and their needs heard, because I think that we are not seeing that today. Oh, it makes me think, like, how different would our policies look like and our practices if we had actual representation on all levels of government? And, you know, that's something that's so important to me as well. You know that my goal is to be a professor one day, and really what I want to do is encourage LGBTQ youth and women to, you know, be better leaders and to really grow in their leadership development. And, you know, having people like you and many of our other friends who are just out there living their life as queer people and doing incredible work, being, you know, we have friends who work in government spaces, friends who want to be lawyers. I think it's so important that we see that representation today. And so my last question for you now, Maggie, is how do you hope to use leadership to create change as a queer woman? Yeah, so I guess I really kind of, like, long-term hope to move into, like, the policy analysis space. And I think bringing in my experience as a queer woman is key to that. And I can taste the experience of being queer, because kind of going back to, like, you can not separate yourself from your experiences. That's going to influence whatever work you do. Yeah. But there is a way to include it in a way that is productive. I also think just being queer and being in queer spaces, you get a sense for even within the queer community, there's a million different experiences. And I think that has kind of shaped my thinking and, like, built on thinking that I've had of, like, being inclusive and considerate of, like, other perspectives. So I hope I can bring that into the work that I hope to do. I want to work with think tanks and, like, nonprofits that are helping to push this, like, research that is based off of, like, lived experiences and not just fornicative research. And that's the goal. And I think part of that is acknowledging our identities, acknowledging how that informs the way that we view things, the way we interpret things, and the way we do research. Like, yeah. And pulling from that and my other identities and just also leaving space for others. I think that's so important. Well, thank you so much for all of your incredible insights today, Maggie. And thank you for joining us on Challenging the Black, Dealing with Persistent Barriers to Inclusion. Thank you all for listening in today. And I hope you are able to join us for our next event with Coloradans. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.